"..the Christian son of a Kenyan Muslim father and a Kansas mother sought common cause in part by addressing his own roots — and using a middle name that opponents used against him at inflammatory moments in the presidential campaign.
"Much has been made of the fact that an African-American with the name Barack Hussein Obama could be elected president," he said. "But my personal story is not so unique." He went on to say the dream of America exists for all who go there — including nearly 7 million Muslims.
The Israeli government issued a statement saying it, too, hoped for a new era. But it skirted any reference to Obama's calls for a settlement freeze in the West Bank and the creation of an independent Palestinian state — demands that Israel's hawkish prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, continues to reject.
Obama addressed the Israeli-Palestinian dispute pointedly in his address, knowing it goes to the heart of Muslim anger toward the West.
"It is time for us to act on what everyone knows to be true," he said. "Too many tears have flowed. Too much blood has been shed."" Yahoo News
………………………………………………………..
Baby steps in Cairo, like Bob Wiley's baby steps. Bob was an emotionally crippled man who feared the very air he breathed. There are many such among us. After thinking about the Cairo speech and world wide reaction I have very mixed feelings.
On the most obvious level it was a fairly trivial survey of the complaints of all against all, but after listening to the reflex reaction of many talking heads to his discourse it seems that this level of simplistic rhetoric is needed as a corrective. So many minds have been closed by propaganda and indoctrination. This is true on all sides.
Obama's liberal Zionist backers were undoubtedly "paid" with this effort. I doubt if they are altogether pleased with the outcome. Their hard right competition certainly are not. There is always a danger in making a man a king. Once he is transformed, he is no longer wholely yours.
It is farcical to think that the hostility between the West and Islamdom is rooted in a failure of communication, a lack of mutual understanding and that all would be well if only the "boys" would "play nice in the schoolyard." Fourteen hundred years of hostility and confrontation are not explicable by resort to various accepted wisdoms; Christian aggression, Muslim desires for world dominion, etc. There has always been a basic rivalry between the two culture "continents." Humans are like that. They love groups and enemies. Can that be overcome? Certainly, but it will take time and effort. It will do no good to underestimate the difficulty, but one can make a start. Perhaps this was a start?
Barack Obama would do well to remember that however respectful of Islamicate culture he may be, he is no more capable of bridging the essential chasm between Islam (the religion) and Christianity that anyone else has been. "Neither does He beget nor is He begotten, and like unto Him there is no other." These words from what he easily calls the "Holy Qur'an" are not a figure of speech. Muslims, to the extent that they really are Muslims, believe in the literal truth of these words. They know that one is either a Muslim or not. Evangelical Christians are equally aware of the opposite of that, as are, I suppose, a few archbishops. Some day we may see the truth as Rumi saw it. That would be a better world. Obama has to be careful not to encourge those who want to see him as a dissembler.
An excess of "cultural sensitivity" is not helpful. It is patronising. Hilary Clinton in a headscarf visiting pharaonic antiquities is simply absurd.
Ah, well. "The dog barks but the caravan marches on." pl
That’s not”Baby Steps”. That’s political Kabuki theater.
It’s a lot more entertaining than “Baby Steps”.
It’s just “more change we can believe in”. We got those obnoxious Israelis on the run now!
The entire speech (about 1 hr) in youtube clips.
I thought it was a good neutral, seek common ground speech. Not going to make everybody happy, but strike all the essential parts. Nice delivery too.
picks a nice spot to deliver.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/6/4/738719/-Masterpiece-(UPDATE:-Obama-Makes-Surprise-Visit-to-Pyramids!!!)
Thanks as always for your insights, Col. Lang.
I would be interested to learn more about what you mean by “the truth as Rumi saw it” — do you have a particular poem in mind?
Colonel,
Could it have been Obama’s hot air, and Hillary didn’t want to mess up her ‘doo’? Just a thought.
All:
Al-Allamah al-Sayyid Muhammad Husayn at-Tabataba’i (1892-1981), in Tafseer Al Mizan, states:
“…a man cannot be a true servant of Allah unless he believes in all that was revealed to the apostles of Allah without making any difference between revelation and revelation, or between apostle and apostle…”
See: http://www.almizan.org/Tafseer/Volume1/Baqarah1.asp
By the “apostles of Allah” he means all the 124,000 prophets that, according to Islamic Tradition, have been given a message, a mission, or both by God. Among them are Moses, Jesus, and others.
At this moment in history, in my opinion, Islam and Christianity are not in conflict. Islamic Republic of Iran has excellent relations with Armenia, with Greece, with the Vatican, and with any number of pre-dominantly Catholic countries in Africa, Europe, and South America.
It is the protestant Christians and the post-Christian secularist in North America and certain West European states that seem to think that there is a margin in provoking or fighting Muslims.
What with reports that secular Jews are leaving the Promised Land in droves (Harper’s), Zion is increasingly in the hands of Russian thugs and religious fanatics. Trends that were heading south before security forces turned a blind eye to Rabin’s assassination are only accelerating.
Any attempt by other elected leaders to bring about something less than a Palestinian Potemkin village may well be met by similar actions by well armed, well trained & US Ppt-carrying fanatics. Given the nuke situation, it’s not likely that a “Masada-like” scenario will play out solely within Israel’s borders.
I doubt many people here, certainly not Col. Lang, need to be reminded that Islam is a separate historical project and as such has some oppositions with the Western historical project that will never be resolved to the satisfaction of members of either. Some things have to remain dynamically opposed, no matter the wishes of the Masters on either side.
Obama is well advised. In his speech he used the phrase ‘justice and prosperity’ not the ‘freedom and prosperity’ that we, as Westerners, have been conditioned with. Everyone I spoke to here caught that immediately. The Muslims have their own conditioning and while Rumi may indeed have laughed at them all, we are stuck with who and what we are: Grapes can have different colors, textures and tastes and still be grapes.
We can live with dynamic oppositions or try to force stasis on the other side. I think Obama is on the right track.
The frame has dramatically shifted in the past two months.
Because of the unprecedented spotlight on the settlements, occupation, and failure to keep one’s word, Israel has lost its status as eternal victim. On the contrary, the spotlight is shining on how Israel victimizes.
Likewise, the Palestinians are no longer THE terrorists. And they are not just terrorists. By explicitly stating that their situation is intolerable, Obama is conceding that they are victims as well.
All in all, Obama has done a masterful job of changing the frame of reference and equilibrating the moral positions occupied by Israel and the Palestinians.
Dark, dark days in Jerusalem. For the Israelis it has to be a disaster for the moral high ground to suddenly be yanked out from underneath them. Stripped of their phony aura of moral behavior, how can they continue to justify being a bully?
To me, Obama’s Cairo speech just gave the Islamic world (and the Wahhabis and the Muslim Brotherhood) a “carte blanche” to advance Islam all over America and the world with all possible means. You may disagree with it but that’s how I saw it, plain and simple, and for what it’s really about. The world will not belong to Islam and never will be!
The living heart of the great religions beat as One in the Mystics and the Saints, not the clerics or fundamentalists, nor even your religious man on the Street. When I was young it was my great good fortune to spent several years among such men and women. I witnessed several gatherings of Saints hailing from such diverse traditions as Tibetan Buddhism, Hinduism and Islam: harmony, love and mutual understanding reigned between them. What does it mean to be a true Muslim? Ask a Sufi Adept (or one of his Hindu, Christian or Buddhist peers…)
Could you explain your Rumi reference a bit more, please?
“The dog barks but the caravan marches on.”
I thought you were referring to a carnival barker on my 1st read. “C’mon, win the lady a prize!” Eye/beholder/giant stuffed panda.
PL, could you please define “Islamicate”?
I think I know what you mean, all the peoples of Islam, both secular and practicing, but want to make sure. Thanks, Trent
Good points, but as a Muslim I really think too much is made about the religion issue. At it’s core the real issues are political.
Getting too wrapped up in the religious issue here is playing into the hands of bin Laden and the extremists. The vast majority of the issues currently between the West and the Muslim world are secular issues with clear secular answers.
Most recruits to AQ and related groups do not join up to forge an Islamic Caliphat, they dont join up to impose Shari’a law in Europe or to ban women in tub tops buy beer at 7-11s.
They join for overt secular political reasons, the occupation of Palestine, US support for Israel, US support for Muslim dictators.
Lets not forget that for the majority of the struggle against Israel, the US and the West, it was a lefist secular struggle. The move to a religious angle only happened because of the failure of pan Arabism and left wing movements to provide any results.
Eventually this current Islamist trend will fade like the leftists and pan Arabs before them and be replaced with something new.
This is where many people go wrong. When it is presented as a religious issue then it seems insolveable, an eternal struggle, when the truth is that there are clear political goals and steps that could be taken to solve much of the issues.
Let us hope that for the excess of talking heads the Arabic proverb can apply: La yadur al-sahab, nabah al-kilab, unless my romanization has deserted me, The clouds are not frightened by the barking of dogs.
Clearly, the Cairo speech was no solution, but it seems an improvement over, “bring ’em on.”
Baby steps are better than no steps.
Obama needs a big “win” in the foreign policy sphere to insure his re-election three years from now. I see the fine political hand of Rahm Emmanuel in this. Try for an accomodation with Cuba, Iran, or Palestine/Israel in the next few years and hope one or more happens.
Okay subtract ‘Oil’ and ‘Israel’ and where does the Arab world stand? I think this is good way to focus and others say too hypothetical. Actually I don’t but time will tell. Not in favor of course of disappearance of either!
Is the religion of Islam practiced by 3M or 7 M as I see both figures used would like to know sources and accuracy.
Finally, OBAMA right in one conclusion and that is Islam is part of Western tradition and religion. Not out of the East so to speak. Does not mean any fundamental reconciliation possible but interesting to know cross-religious impacts other than dead bodies! Any good studies of the relationship religious doctrine wise between Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam? Recent? Are we talking past each other because of religion, or something else?
Who is looking at these various dialectics? Certainly not the INTEL community.
All
With regard to Rumi, he was a man who saw God in love, not in rules or sects. More than that I will not say.
Trent
Marshall Hodgson made some intersting and useful distinctions with regard to;
Islam – the religion itself
Islamdom – the lands of Islam’s dominion as in “Christendom.”
Islamicate – an adjective. in this case applied to the words “civilization” or “culture” meaning that culture deeply and crucially affected by Islam.
Abu Sinan
Religion has many aspects. Religion as philosophy or path salvation is one thing. Religion as sect is quite another. For the violent zealots there is no difference between religion and politics. I think we have had this discussion before. pl
Col. Meister Eckhardt, the great 14th century christian mystic has a poem called “The Donkey” which speaks to your comment about Rumi [ whom i also like }. The closing lines are: “that’s what love does, love frees.”.
The “truth” has a resonance that is undeniable……
President
Obama’s speech
Cairo,
the eternal-capital
of
Mubarakstan.
I came to you with a message of Peace,
this Peace is for Israel, of course,
and not necessarily for the Arabs.
The Bible of Hegemony said so.
I came to you with the promise to end up the occupation
and indeed the Arabs-of-Israel may no more occupy
their own homes , and would have to move out….
The Bible of Hertzl said so…..
I came with the promise to terminate the settlements
on the West Bank ……
because we simply are going to annex it,
and call it also “Israel” .
The Bible of Ariel said so.
As for the Golan ,
it shall no more be an occupied-land
but a part of the Kingdom of Salomon .
The Bible of Benyamin said so.
The four Million Palestinian Refugees
do not exist anymore !!
and to mention them ,
or to mention their mysery,
shall be punishable by law .
The Bible of the Knesset said so.
Only the Holocaust took place
and nobody else , ever died !!
Changes are now implemented !!
Changes are now taking shape !!
Changes are hereby delivered !!
As for the inhabitants of the West Bank
they may choose to run-away and hide
under the boots of King Abdullah
or to go and die , once more , in Sabra and Chatila
or to be relocated in Kurdistan , for ever.
The Bible of Congress said so.
As for Gaza ,
it shall be evacuated, depopulated
and turned into a Nature-Reserve- Park
for the sub-tropical- Sea-Birds.
The Bible of ecology said so.
Changes are coming !! as you see….
and only my promises to the promised-lands will be kept.
Should you disagree or disobey me ,
I shall take my revenge on you ,
as follows :
1)
I shall maintain Hosny Mubarak and his Gestapo
ruling on both sides of the Nile .
2)
I shall maintain the Royal-Wahhabi’ s-clan
guarding my oil-wells and your precious Qaaba .
3)
I shall maintain Iraq , unmaintainable
4)
I shall maintain Lebanon, ungovernable
5)
I shall maintain Syria , isolated and demonised
I am the ruler of the Earth
never mind if I was born a Muslim…..
Look around you, how many other Moslem’s are
also your own tyrants !! ??
Never mind if I converted to Christianity
look around you, how many Christians
have committed genocides ,
injustices and colonialism ??
Do not mind any religion
it is all about power…
the power to shape the others ,
without ever changing one-self
the power of promising anything
and then doing nothing ……or everything.
My name is Barrack son of Hussein Obama
born on the USA-Colony-of- Honolulu
from an African Muslim father,
I am member of a Black-Church because
the whites would not let me in their’s ……..
I am black . but I serve the White-Ashkenazim
I once was a Muslim but now I serve the Christian-Zionists !!
They, after all , have made me the President.
No contradictions here ,
because my power justifies what I want to do ,
and my ultimate-power, justifies everything you will suffer .
Power justifies slavery, imperialism
and even Zionism…..
Power makes me change my colour
and my religion too….
I became White and American and Imperialist
the day when I entered the US politics
who can tell me now :
no !!………. …. you are Black and Moslem.
I am now white…as white as Michael Jackson is
and as white as Tipzi Livni is a Semite ….
Look at me, here in Cairo , on the Nile
in the once capital of Arabism…..
and now you all are cheap-cheeps ,
are standing here an listening to anything I would say,
you believe me………because you fear me !!
I can feed you ………… as much as I can rule you !!
Where is now El Raiiss ???……
who once made you free-men .
Would El Sayyed take his place ??
and kick me out of the Canal ??
You are now spectators of your own enslavement
You are now witnesses of your own submission
I am the Obama from Omaha and Nebraska
I am the Obama from Alabama and Louisiana
I am the Obama from Oklahoma and Alaska
I am the Obama from the empire of evil…….
and you are only my wet-Rats on the Nile !!
Shut up !! turn back !!
………… and go peacefuly back home !!!
and pick up your chains , on your way out !!
Thank you !! and God bless the USA…….
Original text by :
Shlomo Goldberg, speech-writer
Translation by :
Eng. Moustafa Roosenbloom, double-agent
Copyright : Blue Star Publications Tel Aviv -Amman -Cairo
I usually find myself in agreement with your positions, but I find your last paragraph to be disturbingly cynical, even for you.
Obama is trying to start a healing process, to heal the wounds inflicted in the Middle East by the Cheney/Bush cabal. He is not being patronising and Hilary’s head scarf is a gesture of respect for the sensitivities of her host, though clearly it was a photo-op gesture.
The key word you used was “excess” to describe Obama’s cultural sensitivity comments. That is a statement of your opinion. It implies that some amount of cultural sensitivity is appropriate. Many who heard or read the speech don’t believe it was excessive.
Muslims, to the extent that they really are Muslims, believe in the literal truth of these words.
This kind of statement may be true in a practical sense, but it always bothers me. If Muslims tie themselves to a specific understanding of the Quran, that is their choice. But who are we to say who really is a Muslim? Can we say, that a Christian, to the extent that they are real Christians, must reject Copernicus, Galileo, and Darwin?
Further, in accepting the literalists’ (Muslims or Christians)definition of a “real” believer, we are conceding them too much – we are accepting their theology as factual.
That is, given the following two persons:
A Muslim who believes a literal reading of the Quran is a requirement for a real Muslim and other believers in the Quran but non-literalists are not real Muslims;
A Muslim who reads the Quran not literally, but say, as metaphor, but follows all the pillars of Islam
— why are we making the determination that the first is correct and is a “real Muslim” and the second is not fully a Muslim? and who are we to do so?
Arun
All right. The vast majority of Muslims believe as I have described.
Leanderthal
Generations of Egytian and other Arab women heave struggled for many years to control their own lives even in matters as small as how they dress. You and HC evidently don’t care about that. You are more interested in being culturally sensitive.
How about clitoral “circumcision?” should we make some favorable gesture towards that also? It is quite common in Cairo and is well supported by the opinion of many there. pl
It seems the President himself is trying hard and sincerely at least at the level of rhetoric and tone.
Some might construe his references to the Nazi era as a justification for the state of Israel, however.
But moving beyond the pleasant rhetoric, theatrics, atmospherics, PR and so on, the world awaits concrete and effective ACTION by the US.
Yes, the caravan does indeed pass…I recall seeing this quote in an Idries Shah book I read back in the 1960s. With regard to this image, I also think of Vansittart’s “Mist Procession”….
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KF06Ak02.html
Obama’s omission in no way detracts from the seriousness of his commitment to a peace settlement and his speech suggests the beginning of the end of that era of almost unqualified support for Israel. His speech [1], like the rest of his Middle East policy, is full of the nuance that George W Bush famously excised from his rhetoric. For the diehard pro-Israeli crowd, it is a sort of reverse neutron bomb, which attacks the structure of Likud policy while temporarily leaving its protagonists intact. But they should watch for fallout.
In his hallmark tangential way, he dealt with the war in Iraq in a way that nobody back home could accuse of being unpatriotic. He carefully distinguished it from Afghanistan as a “war of choice”, and said that it had “reminded America of the need to use diplomacy and build international consensus to resolve our problems whenever possible”. He did not as his leftist critics immediately complained, “apologize” or do penance. He merely said it would not happen again, which is enough for most of us.
While many Muslims would welcome the declaration of peace with the Islamic world, which he certainly took beyond pious platitudes, he and his audience are well aware that the litmus test will be delivery of a peace settlement in the Middle East. In fact, he does not even have to deliver – he merely has to show that the US is indeed an honest broker and not just Israel’s second in an unequal dual with the Palestinians. That is a process that he has clearly begun and his speech is part of it.
Arun:
Only God can make the determination if someone is a true Muslim (or Christian, or Jew).
Ah, there are days where it feels SO GOOD to have no religion! Hearing, and reading, news accounts in the aftermath of the speech is one such day.
Please don’t get me wrong…there are lots of other ‘good days’. But the last 24 hours was a special day.
Hilary Clinton in a headscarf visiting pharaonic antiquities is simply absurd
Col. Lang,
I believe you are mistaken here. Most of the pictures showing HRC with a headscarf were taken inside the the Sultan Hassan Mosque (Women have to cover their heads inside).
Those who went to visit the Pyramids and the antiquities were in casual garb , including the President, with bottles of water in hand and hats or caps to prevent sun burn.
interesting footnote about the speech, Obama mention women president in Islamic countries:
-Benazir Bhutto. She probably is the only Islamic PM out there. But then again she was assassinated by radical Islamist. I would put here among world most skilled politicians.
-Megawati. Islamist doesn’t like her. She is center right nationalist. during her last presidential campaign, Islamists made a hard case about her not being Islamic. Of course that pissed voters off and elected her.
both women inherited incredibly messy economy.
“Obama is well advised. In his speech he used the phrase ‘justice and prosperity’ not the ‘freedom and prosperity’ that we, as Westerners, have been conditioned with. Everyone I spoke to here caught that immediately. ”
It has nothing to do with ‘conditioning.’
It would be a bit awkward for him to talk about democracy and freedom, which is exactly what the US-supporting regimes in the neighborhood don’t want. Lipstick on a pig, indeed.
Babak
Don’t get sanctimonious on me. I am not approaching the question of Muslim identity from the point of view of religion per se. I am more interested in what the attitudes are of those who think themselves “true” believers. pl
ok Beaver. Headwear is unobjectionable to me in a mosque, if that is what it was.
All
anyone know if Mubarak went to the airport to meet him? pl
My goodness! I have never seen this many men get their poetry button pushed at one time like this. Remarkable!
The results speak for themselves. President Obama obviously knows how to push a button or two.
But all the touchy feely “can’t we all just love one another”rhetoric aside. Well no, we actually can’t.
The Western secular humanistic thought which is well on the way to burying the Judeo-Christian faith.Is even less compatible with the Muslim faith, and more than a few of their more( shall we say zealous) believers have figured this out.
Unlike the decayed and ever so decadant Bishops of Christendom,who apparently are more than willing to trade their faith and beliefs for a nice soft pension in this life. The Mullah’s appear to be more than game for a nasty little bit of resistance.
That might be why they drive airliners into sky scrappers, etc.,etc. And with the advent of 4th generation warefare they are just getting started.
My personal advice to all you touchy feely humanist out there in blog land, is either get a turban or get a gun before they are outlawed. Because the “Musis” have every intention of either converting you or cutting your head off, and turing your women and children into concubines and slaves.
They have the will to win. They just damn well might pull it off.
I should think history is at least as much of a factor as religion, though I would take exception to this:
“…Fourteen hundred years of hostility and confrontation…”
It hasn’t been a history of uniform hostility. The Lithuanians and Mongols were happy to tag team the Russians, as were the Ottomans and the French happy to work together against the Austrians. Alliances against the Turks as at Lepanto seem to have been motivated primarily by the need to contain a superpower, with religion being of secondary importance. Yes, the crusades were religious, as were the early Muslim conquests, but since then the story seems to me to have been mainly one of cynical power politics.
As for the 20th century, it’s easy to see why people in the middle east might hate us for purely secular political reasons.
Here’s what happened in one five year period:
The Sykes–Picot Agreement
The Battle of Maysalun
The Iraqi Revolution of 1920
The Turkish War of Independence
Compared to any of those, the Balfour declaration was relatively benign.
To spell out a specific example, Iran has exceptionally good reason to hate the US. Imagine if President Truman had been overthrown by Iranian agents in 1953. Now imagine that the Iranians propped up the repressive government of King MacArthur for the next 25 years, right up until the tyrant was finally overthrown by Pastor Jerry Falwell’s Moral Majority Militia in 1979. That’s exactly what the US did to Iran in the second half of the 20th century. To the best of my knowledge the US has never so much as apologized for overthrowing the democratically elected Mossadegh government.
I don’t mean to deny that religion has been vital to anti-American movements both as a recruiting tool and for organizational cohesion, but I don’t think religion is the reason why such groups exist.
Don’t think Mubarak went to the airport because of this piece :
After spending the night at Saudi King Abdullah’s horse farm in the desert outside Riyadh, Obama arrived at Egypt’s imposing, ornate Qubba Palace on a lush property in the middle of Cairo with nearly two dozen horses leading his motorcade down the wide, palm-lined palace drive.
The U.S. president jogged up the steps to greet his Egyptian counterpart with a handshake and the region’s traditional double-cheek kiss. As the two leaders stood on a balcony, a military band in blue dress uniforms played both countries’ national anthems.
http://www.cleveland.com/world/index.ssf/2009/06/president_obama_meets_with_egy.html
Ian
Surely you know that history, politics and all else are not separate for the believer. pl
Generations of Egytian and other Arab women heave struggled for many years to control their own lives even in matters as small as how they dress.
As Leila Ahmed points out (Women and Gender in Islam, Yale Univ. Press, 1992) this struggle has often been coopted by patriarchal white men in their quest for colonial domination; prime example the earl of Cromer. This is something Egyptian men and women will have to come to agreement on, and not Egyptian women and Americans.
Anyway, the futility of this all is bothersome. Today I learned about optical interferometry methods that enable us to see the deformation of rapidly spinnning stars. This corresponds to having resolution power in the milliarcsecond range. This corresponds to be able to see a man-sized feature on the moon. But the scientists are confidently talking of being able to get to the microarcsecond range. This would correspond to being able to see a man-sized feature on the sun. Or, if only they were bright enough, resolving a sun-earth system in the Andromeda galaxy. If the scientists do get to microarcsecond resolutions, we may learn as much about the universe as we have since the beginning of our history.
The universe beckons us and we fight over what women should wear!
Generations of Egytian and other Arab women heave struggled for many years to control their own lives even in matters as small as how they dress.
As Leila Ahmed points out (Women and Gender in Islam, Yale Univ. Press, 1992) this struggle has often been coopted by patriarchal white men in their quest for colonial domination; prime example the earl of Cromer. This is something Egyptian men and women will have to come to agreement on, and not Egyptian women and Americans.
Anyway, the futility of this all is bothersome. Today I learned about optical interferometry methods that enable us to see the deformation of rapidly spinnning stars. This corresponds to having resolution power in the milliarcsecond range. This corresponds to be able to see a man-sized feature on the moon. But the scientists are confidently talking of being able to get to the microarcsecond range. This would correspond to being able to see a man-sized feature on the sun. Or, if only they were bright enough, resolving a sun-earth system in the Andromeda galaxy. If the scientists do get to microarcsecond resolutions, we may learn as much about the universe as we have since the beginning of our history.
The universe beckons us and we fight over what women should wear!
Highlander:
To my knowledge none of the attackers on 9/11/2001 had any formal religious training. Nor were they shia, much less a mullah – commonly referred to a Shia scholar.
Also please be advised that turbans are also worn by non-Muslims; Hindus and Sikhs are examples.
And last I looked, it is US & certain European armies that are going up and down the lenght of Islamdom looking for enemies behind every bush.
There are no three religions on planet Earth more similar than Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. And for good reason, as Christianity was once a Jewish sect, and Islam drew from the wells of both Judaism and Christianity. They are blood relations with different points of view; not natural enemies. There is common ground between them in terms of spirituality if not in theology. The way to find the common ground is to focus on orthopraxis rather than on orthodoxos, which has produced so much regrettable history.
Col. Lang:
They are wrong – both religiously & metaphysically – in their attitudes.
But, unfortunately, no Doctor of Religion or collection of them has the physical and moral courage to say so.
Even Tabatabi wrote a book and did not go public with his own beliefs.
Arun
If human social issues are merely annoying then why do you bring up this ancient ant-colonial business about Cromer?
Yuo think issues of women’s freedom were invented by the imerialists?
This attitude is a stereotypically 3rd world evasion of responsibility. pl
Col. Lang: “Surely you know that history, politics and all else are not separate for the believer.”
Quite true. I should know, seeing as I’m high Anglican. Still, sufficiently extreme differences in degree amount to differences in kind. The war started by Innocent III was a heck of a lot more religiously motivated than Bush II, “crusade” language notwithstanding.
Highlander: “My personal advice to all you touchy feely humanist out there in blog land, is either get a turban or get a gun…because the “Musis” have every intention of either converting you or cutting your head off, and turing your women and children into concubines and slaves.”
Have you ever actually met any Muslims?
The fear you’re expressing would be understandable if you lived in Pakistan. If you are American, your fear of an Islamist coup d’etat is insane, on a par with thinking that the saucer people are listening to your thoughts. Acts of terrorism could happen, but mass enslavement? Are you high? Why oh why are you so afraid?
Ian,
The Muslim world is the only place where slavery is still institutionally practiced( granted it’s done in a slightly covert manner. I mean it’s just not good PR at all).
In my roaming days I passed through Muslim countries on a fairly regular basis. I’ve had the privilege of watching Muslim sanctioned public beatings in Singapore and beheadings in Saudi Arabia.
(I never made it to one of their stonings of an unfaithful woman, though)
As for a Muslim Coup d’tat, there is a 50/50 chance it just happened in the last Presidential election. The true irony of that is. It was almost entirely engineered by very rich, liberal American Jews(Is there any other kind).
At a minimum the Obama administration has some very serious internal contradictions. It should be interesting observing how they play out.
I find it sad watching the west slowly decay. Afraid, no. I’ve always had an unnatural desire to be around for the crunch.
Highlander,
I can certainly agree with what you say about internal contradictions, but these are inherent to human nature and not the Obama administration, per se.
For example, I am against the death penalty in all its forms. I believe that it is just never appropriate, not for anyone. Yet, at the same time, I can still relish the idea of the Saudis beheading a pedophile.
As has often been mentioned, Obama is not the Messiah. He’s not able to change human nature, and it’s not necessary that he change human nature. We’ve lived with serious internal contradictions all the time.
B.R.
Highlander:
You wrote: “The Muslim world is the only place where slavery is still institutionally practiced”. Where exactly do you have in mind?
One only needs to go to India and look at how orphaned Dalit girls are raised to be temple prostitutes for the Hindu men of the village. Do you not consider that slavery?
Certain Muslim judicial practices, are, in my opinion superior to judicial practices of US, EU and others.
For example, retribution as a principle of Islamic Law enables victims or their blood kin to exercise certain rights – such as a right of clemency as well as retribution in capital cases. Perhaps Roman Polanskii would have preferred to exercise that right under Islamic Law, no?
Another example, from US is this: armed robbery, even if no one is killed, has a mandatory 15-year Federal sentence with no possibility of parole. Which one is worse, cutting off the offender’s hand and letting him go or locking him up for 15 years?
In the case of Rodney King beating, would not have canning been a better punishment for a momentary lapse of judgment rather than ruining the careers of the Police Officers involved in that case?
Slandering other traditions is not going to save the West (whatever you meant by that) I should think.
We’ve lived with serious internal contradictions all the time.
Posted by: Byron Raum | 06 June 2009 at 12:40 PM
Stanford’s Robert Sapolsky anthropologists lecture, 90 minutes on the evolutionary basis for literal religious belief, “metamagical thinking,” schizotypal personality and so on, explaining how evolutionarily, the mild schizophrenic expression we called “schizotypal personality” have enjoyed increased reproductive opportunities.
Evolution, religion, schizophrenia and the schizotypal personality
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/06/06/evolution-religion-s.html
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explain a lot about aspect of politics and religion. As a society we aren’t all that grounded. So maybe we all should chill and not take everything so seriously. Or the irrationality will kill us all.
Col Lang, I’m not sure, but I’m believe Clinton only wear the headscarf when she visited ISLAMIC antiquities. Which is not excessive political correctness, but pretty much par for the course.
What is the big deal with the scarf? A generation ago women wore that when entering a Catholic church. Even today, Catholics will not like bare-bossomed or bare-shouldered women to enter their churches.
Babak et al
Enough! Already! I have no objection to women wearing headscarves in mosques!! pl
Highlander seems concerned about Muslims taking over our country and turning our women into harem fodder or whatever. I’m more worried about wacko Christian men in this country, with their zeal for the unborn more than for those who are alive.
Testosterone is truly the most dangerous substance in the world.