"“The president doesn’t want this group to be what inherits the country if Assad ever does fall,” a senior U.S. official said. “This cannot be the viable Syrian opposition. It’s al-Qaeda.”
Officials said the administration’s hope is that more-moderate rebel factions will be able to gain ground as both the Islamic State and al-Nusra come under increased military pressure.
A growing number of White House and State Department officials, however, have privately voiced doubts about the wisdom of applying U.S. military power, even covertly, to pressure Assad to step aside, particularly since Russia’s military intervention in Syria last year.
U.S. intelligence officials say they aren’t sure what Trump’s approach to U.S.-backed rebel units will be once he gets briefed on the extent of the covert CIA program. Trump has voiced strong skepticism about arming Syrian rebels in the past, suggesting that U.S. intelligence agencies don’t have enough knowledge about rebel intentions to pick reliable allies." Washpost
————
What is this? Has Obama finally come to his senses in the last months of his presidency? If I read this article correctly Obama overruled the neocon Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter, the toadies he brought with him to the JCS and the always power hungry CIA. Rather than continue to accept the Israeli influenced "Assad must Go" policy, Obama apparently has directed the DoD to begin massive attacks against this AQ group in Syria.
Will this lead to cooperation with Russia in these operations? I don't know. I hope it will. Apparently Russian air defenses in Syria have been allowing US drone operations in western Syria for some time.
This change of policy is a radical reversal which indicates that overthrow of the Syrian government is no longer a priority of the Obama Administration. Logically, but merely so, Carter should resign since his policy recommendation has been rejected.
The fight for Mosul looks to me to be something that will last a long, long time. What will Obama do about that in his remaining time?
What will President Trump's policy be in the ME? Only time will tell. pl
Colonel, nevertheless good news is good news and maybe the yesterday’s meeting in the WH (Trump said at time difficult) showed who is the new sharif in town.
Well then:
One has to wonder what constraints and harnesses were laid upon a young, inexperienced neighborhood organizer and constitutional law professor working in Chicago to be chosen and groomed for first the Senate and then the presidency.
I have always tended to think of Obama as the modern day Constantine Porphyrogenitus; he sits in the throne but the regents held sway. Maybe this last little bit of reason coming from him is his coming to the rational conclusion “what are they going to do, fire me?”
Yes time will tell, but mark me, Colonel: President Trump’s policy in the ME will be hugely disappointing, above all to those who voted for him hoping he would counter the historic US subservience to Israel. I consider that as a given. Putting it sarcastically, if Netanyahu puked on the pulpit before Congress, your representatives would stand in line to get a taste and call it cuisine extraordinaire. I see no way for Trump to change that.
Wow. This was quick. This change, I can believe in, and I don’t need know-it-all’s in Europe telling us that with their shiny prizes. Great first step towards a saner foreign policy, if followed through.
That is welcome news, no more support for the theocratic Wahhabist jihadist rebels.. very likely also under a Trump admin, the US will ally with Russia with an airstrikes/drone strikes to go after the theocratic Wahhabist jihadist rebels
It’s been clear that Obama has, for the last year or so, been restraining the more impulsive desires of the Borg re Syria. I also noticed the first mention Trump made of what was discussed in the meeting with Obama was foreign policy. Not a surprise at all.
LOL. The scumbag doesn’t want to be remembered as Al-Qaeda’s best protector and most generous benefactor.
I doubt this ruse will work. It’s too late. Obama’s name will live in infamy forever.
I think Obama is afraid of being upstaged by Trump. He is afraid President Trump will defeat ISIS and Al Qaeda in short order. This will raise questions about what he has been doing for the past eight years, so he wants to cover his behind. Mr. Obama realizes the U.S. public will not be filled with joy if it figures out who the U.S. has been supporting in Syria.
Col. Lang,
My humble take is that, having appointed HRC as Secretary of State and campaigned for her run now that she is gone from the scene, he is trying to distance himself from these failures. It is too little too late.
The Ziocons will be all over him in no time…. Netanyahu and his ministers are already jubilating…. they seem to say that they have him by his crotchets….. and are saying publicly: goodbye pâlies state in the west bank…. they will proceed with a transfer asap….
Gosh! That young Donald sure works fast:
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2016/11/nusra-on-the-run-trump-induces-first-major-policy-change-on-syria.html
“The first significant step of the new administration comes while Trump is not even in offices. Obama, selfishly concerned with his historic legacy, suddenly makes a 180 degree turn and starts to implement Trump polices. ”
Damn. Well that seems like good news if true.
Although I’m on the left side of things (the actual left–not Democratic), the one very positive thing I see coming from a Trump presidency is not having a shooting war with Russia. I think my kids won’t need to worry about that, at least.
Sounds to me like Obama decided it would be worse if al-Nusra provides the margin that topples Assad, than if Assad remains. The article also says in so many words that many of the fighters are involved with al-Nusra out of expediency, survival, and a lack of better options. If that category of “moderate rebel” affiliated with al-Nusra is made up of ordinary Syrians who chose to fight rather than leave or switch, it offers the possibility that they can regroup and find different affiliates. I don’t know whether their numbers merely would weaken the capacity (relative to Assad) of both non-ISIS radicals and anti-Assad moderates, and if this ultimately strengthens moderates, outside the shadow of the radicals, to shape some political solution in the future.
ya reckon HRC being out of the way gave Obama some cojones?
“NassimNicholasTaleb @nntaleb
Why did Obama turn on AlQaeda now? Because Hillary is out of the way?
Very strange.NassimNicholasTaleb added,
@EHSANI
It is technically over. Armed groups cannot survive without #Alqaeda #Nusra #JFS Why did we need to wait this long?”
I believe, and write so, that it is not simple coincidence that this policy and the accompanying Treasury designation of the renamed Nusra comes after Trump was elected and on the very same day he visits the White House to “throw out the black man.” (Isn’t he nasty?)
There hasn’t been much Pentagon action in Idleb yet. Two or three drone strikes in over a month. Given that the CIA likely knows quite well how and where the Nusra bigwigs are reachable that is still minimal activity.
Trump will change the policy on Syria. Obama is changing it now to provide continuity. Thus he saves (at least partly) his own legacy. Brennan and Ash Carter are no longer able to stop that. Their time is over.
I wonder how much the CIA will try to sabotage this new policy.
I’ll wager that Obama had two plans on his desk, one for a Clinton win and one for a Trump win. Thank God Trump won.
b
If “on the very same day he visits the White House to “throw out the black man.”” is not a quotation from the president elect you owe him an apology. pl
Trump’s promise to Israel to back intentions making Jerusalem their capitol seems a BIG ass kiss for Netanyahu! Likely to rile Muslims all over the mideast and here as well. Pence will likely pull along his Israeli loving Christians to push Trump along the Israeli agenda.
i see there’s another Will, so I’m changing to Will2.718 (in honor of Euler)
now known as Will.2718
What of the 6,000+ troops scheduled to deploy to Poland and the Baltic states in January? Will they go?
And why are there bases in Germany, if troops have to deploy from the U.S.? Could this be a first step to establishing a permanent base in Poland?
How is this different from what Obama’s done all along? Despite having the blood thirsty harpies shrieking for more blood and the neo-liberal/con cabals pressuring him, Obama didn’t get us any deeper in any of the shit-piles into which his predecessor dragged the nation. We didn’t appreciably expand our footprints in Afghan, Iraq, or open up new fronts in Syria or Ukraine (aside from verbal assaults). That’s pretty good, particularly given his predecessor’s abysmal record and a whole industry in DC braying for more blood and profit.
Agree with Dante entirely on Israel and Trump – he and the republicans will be dutifully on their knees for the zionists. As for the over all middle east, his willingness to do business with Russia against the liver eaters might be a refreshing change. Trump won’t give a crap about Assad’s authoritarianism as long as he, the russians and the US pile the extremist bodies broad and deep… Of course, that relative good could be massively offset by what might happen with Iran. Time will tell…
-Pitch
Colonel,
I’ve been listening to the BBC. Unwise, but it’s the only news service available when I drive in of a morning And looking at other European news outlets. Is this reaction too long for your comments section:-
For years now we Europeans have been watching our governments enthusiastically hunting with the Neo-con administration in Washington. We have been the lesser wolves in the pack, backing up when needed, sometimes dashing off to hunt our own prey – though only after assent given – sometimes hanging back, even, it has sometimes seemed recently, urging the pack leader on when the pack leader would rather not.
We’ve been good pack members and it’s been a pretty effective pack. If you judge by the kill rate. Now, suddenly, there’s a check. All over Europe our politicians sense what could be a different signal from the pack leader. Whatever the vulpine equivalent may be of “I’m not sure we ought to be doing this anymore”, if that does prove to be the message then the pack’s going to be all abroad and leaderless. Our politicians will be left hanging in the air and desperately in need of a U-turn. Desperately in need of some policies that work, too, and devising those has never been their strong suit.
I have seldom been as conscious of the inadequacies of our politicians and of our political classes as at this time of momentous change. The European response to Trump’s election has been so paltry and inconsequential that I’m ashamed of inhabiting the same continent.
It was a rough and often vicious election campaign, but in Washington both sides are now taking the line that it’s time to put it all behind them. May be that’s just pretence, I wouldn’t know, but at least the proper noises have been made on that side of the Atlantic. Not here. I see the European media, and ours, taking up the worst of the mud that was slung during the election and throwing it at Trump anew. The consensus of the bien pensants and the politicians alike is that no less a figure than the President-elect of the United States is racist, economically illiterate, vindictive, and a buffoon. Plus just about anything else that can be fished out of the dregs of that American campaign – homophobic, populist (how did that get to be an insult?), misogynistic, anti-Semitic, the lot. It’s an object lesson of the worst sort: how to use the arts of spin and PR to take a normal if outsize personality and turn him into some sort of cartoon monster.
That’s the story the European elites are giving us and judging from my own experience it’s a story that’s being swallowed hook line and sinker by masses of people both here and in continental Europe. The universities are in deep mourning. Friends abroad lower their voices when they speak of the disaster. A correspondent, when I mentioned that I thought it was about time we in England looked more exactly at what Trump’s policy goals were, hunted out on the internet and sent us a link to Hitler’s first speech to the Reichstag when he became Chancellor. No covering note, but we were expected to deduce the connection. I think we did.
Snowflake time. How can we blame them? It’s all they get to hear from every media outlet.
But what foolish nonsense. Trump is in truth the first major politician in the West to analyse and seek solutions for the economic and social malaise his and our countries are suffering from. He’s not the first, but he’s by far the most effective critic of the legalised corruption that presses so heavily on government in so many Western countries. But that’s not the worst of it for our political elites. Trump’s major crime is that he has rejected that odd symbiosis that has emerged in recent years. That odd alliance between the mainstream left and the neo-con cronies. An alliance that accommodates such extremes that one rubs one’s eyes and wonders; for it is no unusual occurrence to meet a progressive who becomes agitated by the use of incorrect nomenclature when referring to an immigrant from this or that country, yet remains unruffled when we bomb the country the immigrant comes from into ruin.
And foolish nonsense, doubly foolish, for us in England. What are we throwing at the American President-elect and through him at his country? What is the material that our media and so many of our politicians are now using to run down Trump? Those dregs of that election campaign, those slurs and innuendos that emerged from that campaign, that served or didn’t serve their purpose and are now best forgotten. That’s what we’re now throwing at the only truly reliable ally we have.
In those circumstances the questions that are now agitating the American public – what will Trump do now, will he conquer the Beltway or will it conquer him, how many of his pledges will he be able to hold to? – are for us secondary. There’s another question the English politician should be worrying about. If the wolf pack “Special Relationship” is over, as we must hope it is, what is the relationship that will replace it? That question is going to take some working on, and that work will be no easier if our politicians and media keep running their own campaign of vitriol against the choice America has made.
The continental Europeans will doubtless fail on that question of what the new relationship with America is to be. I hope we don’t.
Will,
I strongly suspect the existing policy would have remained in place if Clinton had prevailed. It’s the correct thing for a departing President to do, I suppose, to not commit his successor to a policy with which he disagrees during his last days. Does it indicate Obama does not have a strong opinion of his own on the matter, at least not anymore?
“Adviser says Trump won’t rip up Iran deal, signals he may not move embassy
Appearing to walk back statements made by president-elect and other advisers, Walid Phares says nuclear pact will be ‘renegotiated,’ US mission will only be moved to Jerusalem under ‘consensus,’ brokering Israeli-Palestinian peace deal will be top priority.”
http://www.timesofisrael.com/adviser-says-trump-wont-rip-up-iran-deal-signals-he-may-not-move-embassy/
richardstevenhack
I really object to the term “deep state” being applied to the US. You think this is Turkey. pl
Now what kind of heartless low-life bastard would fire his own dog?
Pat
I believe Obama deliberately left the question whether to fight against or alongside Al Qaeda in Syria open until after the election, to let the American have their say on that matter.
So, the American people have spoken, and they made it clear with their ballots that they are no friend of Al Qaeda. And now Obama simply did what the American people have chosen. I believe leaving that question open until after the election was a deliberate boon given by Obama to Trump. HRC and her sponsors from Wall Street and the lobby had enough hubris to think they could align themselves with Al Qaeda in Syria and get away with it. Big mistake, and good tactical play from Obama. And I think Trump knows it, that’s why he said Obama is “a very good man.”
My guess is that Obama has acted in this way because he feels he finally has the Borg off his back re Syria. From now til inauguration, Democrat-aligned Borgists will be totally occupied cleaning out their desks, burying their mistakes, and scrambling for paying positions in think tanks and other refuges.
Trump’s looming problem will be to select people for State that aren’t equally dangerous because they are carrying massive Cold War or Zionist baggage. John Bolton being a prime example.
Pre-election, Pence has made some strong interventionist statements re Syria. It remains to be seen whether these were statements of position or merely throwing red meat to certain voting constituencies.
However, Pence is likely to have other priorities, as he has just been identified to take over from Christie in leading the transition team, as Christie is expected to be fully occupied defending himself on Bridgegate
Particularly poignant in light of the old saying ‘If you want a friend in Washington, get a dog’.
I’m sometimes upset reading things here, Trump on his knees ?
lol, you actuaally have not understood who is this guy.
There is a ” boss” as POTUS.
Our EUSSR poodles are in panic mode. So funny !
But not Orban, (Hungarian prime minister )
“This is the second day of a historic event, in which Western civilization appears to successfully break free from the confines of an ideology,”
“We are living in the days where what we call liberal non-democracy – in which we lived for the past 20 years – ends, and we can return to real democracy,”
nor Heinz-Christian Strache, leader FPO of Austria
« The political left as well as the cold and dirty Establishment are punished by the voters and ruled out by various positions of decision-making ».
nor Farage (UKIP, GB )
” The Nation is back. 2016 is the year when people voted for the change and to regain control over their life. The victory of Trump is as huge Brexit. ”
Is the dam breaking ?
I hope so.
Perhaps by striking Isis in western Syria and having them totally destroyed there Obama is playing a strategic game that will show the dead enders in Mosul that the game is up. If western Syria is cleansed then the moral of the typical Isis recruit will falter and many could very well slip away. They would of course still be radicalized, but anything that makes taking Mosul easier would be seen as well worth it. I’m sure as far as his legacy is concerned, if Obama can manage to liberate most of western Iraq before January 20th he would try it.
All,
It seems to me Obama just unofficially aligned the US with Russia in Syria. This is what Trump wants. To him I believe it’s as simple as that. No sense in delaying the inevitable.
I can understand why Euros might mistake this election as a mandate for a change in foreign policy, but it wasn’t. The rhetoric on the campaign trail was almost gibberish. The Rust Belt spoke. Their plight is not well covered in the media but every town has a growing population of homeless. Many of these people have jobs and kids. A school reasonably suspended all homework assignments because they became aware nearly 20% of their students are homeless. No desk. No place to do it.
As Noah pointed out last night on TDS this is a semi rural population. Nobody would notice a protest in such places even if they managed to gather enough in the same place and time to stage one. They have been ignored because they are easy to ignore. Our media exists within big-city bubbles. They tout “unemployment rates” which miss the low wages and they cite Dow Jones averages…and manage to ignore the homeless in their own overpasses and green belts.
The majority are not homeless, but they know they are but a few bad breaks away and can see little they can do to improve their lot. The good paying jobs of the mid 20th for the working stiff are few and far between now. And yet the population grows….
Everybody knows Trump is a liar and a thief, but at least he doesn’t seem to think this can be fixed by college tuition reform and “education”. Everybody knew Obama was black too, he didn’t fix this mess for whatever reason and this same demographic turned on him two years later. Expect the same for Trump if he too fails to deliver hope.
All,
I forgot the closing in my above post.
To the Euros: You are being weaned of dependence on the US for the problems of the ME and Russia. Get used to it.
You would seem to have an inordinate regard for your bosses. Have you worked in the private sector – or for that matter pretty much anywhere – much? He did it his way – seriously? He had the great good fortune to be born to a rich father. What he did with that wealth, ie how much he actually grew it we’ll never know as he’s sure not going to show his returns. His boss attitude would seem to flow mainly from having inherited excessive wealth and never having to suffer much in the way of consequences. He’s a boss when those he’s bossing have few recourses.
I’m sure you’ll be excited when he appoints the heads of the investment banks to the administration – more bosses! Great. Have you heard what he’s said about Israel? Of course, since per his supporters you can’t take anything he says seriously we’ll see.
Pitch,
We get it, you don’t like Trump. How much is the CTR check paying?
Perhaps BO sees Trump for what he is, a grifter. Trump campaigns against Washington insiders and wants to #clear the swamp, yet predictions for his cabinet all are insiders: Gingrich, Diamond, Giuliani, Bolton, Mnuchin. He vowed to repeal The ACA and now says he may keep parts of it. Giuliani is walking back prosecuting HRC. Maybe BO wants to
insure that he leaves as little chance as possible that The Donald could start WWIII, because anything he says has a 50-50 chance of being bull$hit. Thus, make nice with Russia, so any future kerfuffle is on The Donald.
Robert C
You have no idea what Trump wants.
Robert C.
Major mistake above 0bama’s pay grade to so support the terrorists.
They were begging to be dependent on US, when things did not go as expected, all of a sudden, they claim to have grown a backbone…
merely a narcissistic intent to “look good” (as his advisers said after the Benghazi event was their primary function.)
not 100% sure, if I understand this correctly. But interested in Benghazi events.
His advisers said their only task was to make him look good?
When did they let media know? Recently? Immediately after?
It was their task only after the Benghazi attack or generally over the years?
Degringolade,
It seems to me this decision by Obama confirms a feeling I voiced several months ago here . . . that his major after-office reward-payers would not be basing their payouts on his positions on Israel-specific or Middle-East specific issues. I think he did this knowing his coming payoffs will not be endangered.
His reward will be for several things: engineering functional immunity and impunity for the Cheney/bush Administration war crimes perpetrators and Geneva Convention violators, engineering functional immunity and impunity for the FIRE sector perpetrators behind the crash of 2008 and the fraud engineering leading up to it, and some small reward for getting Obamacare passed, even though it is not working out as well for its expected forced captive revenue-stream beneficiaries as they would
have hoped.
If I am right about that, then Obama will get at least a Clinton-sized payout over the next 10 years. If I am wrong about that, then he will receive ten million dollars or less over the next ten years. I doubt he will ever get invited to all the fun parties and things that the Clintons will keep getting invited to.
Yes, That’s Reich Trump is a Zionist Anti-Semite. Of course he is.
I’ve thought the Deep State & the Borg were;
a) not formally defined nor long & widely held concepts,
b) essentially synonymous with one another, or at least greatly overlapping.
Could you identify the core distinction between the two?
I’ve believed that Obama left national security & foreign policy to the borg-pros (as did Clinton in his admins) as dems do who have limited background (or interest, or expertise) in those fields. (The trade was that they were able to concentrate upon domestic policy.) His neocon-light harpies that disturbed many so much were a form of affirmative action… and he kept ’em in check by limiting their authority to wield power. It surprises me that those who see conspiracies & complex stratagems around every issue find it hard to conceive that Obama might allow distinct interests to co-exist in his admin… but of course, a community organizer couldn’t be so sophisticated.
I’ll be tracking how Trump does with our NatSec by (among others) a simplistic comparative gauge – how many military personnel are lost & how much treasure is squandered in dubious pursuits, compared to previous job holders.
Colonel Lang, it is true there is a new Sharif in town with a very nice start.
“WASHINGTON — President-elect Donald J. Trump said Friday that he was likely to abandon the American effort to support “moderate” opposition groups in Syria who are battling the government of President Bashar al-Assad, saying “we have no idea who these people are.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/12/world/middleeast/donald-trump-syria.html?_r=0
Obomba is merely destroying the evidence….before January 20……
>Trump elected, gives victory speech
>hours later Putin responds positively, tensions falling already
>Obama switches policy on Syria
>American based industries experience surge in stock price, market spikes
>Raul and Carlos give up on illegal entry after they hear Trump is elected.
Man hasn’t even been in office yet and he’s MAGA-ing!
People are worrying about Trump appointing neocon Bush era insiders; yet if Trump didn’t believe in pivoting on key policies, then why is the Syrian realignment happening? Ousting Assad has been Borg priority as we all know.
You are right Pat, it is not a quotation from Trump. But nowhere did I suggest (well – directly suggest) it was. I picked the meme from a fake NYT page 1 that is widely circulating on Twitter. Headline: “Trump forces black family form home”. See for example here:
https://twitter.com/runningforpizza/status/796403752064483328
I’m not sure if its an end to the American/European relationship, especially for the British who have already partially escaped the old neo-con reality with Brexit. A big point of the Remainers is that it will take us years to negotiate any trade deals outside the EU, but a senior Trump aide has already said that a Trump administration would be prepared to sign a trade deal with Britain very soon.
For the next step toward reality we have a brainless neo-con Defence Minister Michael Farron whose demise no one will even notice, and a Foreign Minister Boris Johnson who is so shit-scared of looming scandals he will follow any policy. There is only one neo-con of any significance within Theresa May’s cabinet, and her backbenchs are stuffed with “realist” senior Tory MPs – mainly ex-military and ex-diplomats – who want no more nonsense in the ME or with Russia.
Trump’s victory has strengthened the hands of the “good Guys” in this country – even in the Labour Party – and weakened the “bad guys.”
Thanks.
Trump has an interview in the WSJ on Syria and I/P;
“Mr. Trump suggested a shift away from what he said was the current Obama administration policy of attempting to find moderate Syrian opposition groups to support in the civil war there. “I’ve had an opposite view of many people regarding Syria,” he said.
He suggested a sharper focus on fighting Islamic State, or ISIS, in Syria, rather than on ousting Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
“My attitude was you’re fighting Syria, Syria is fighting ISIS, and you have to get rid of ISIS. Russia is now totally aligned with Syria, and now you have Iran, which is becoming powerful, because of us, is aligned with Syria. … Now we’re backing rebels against Syria, and we have no idea who these people are.”
If the U.S. attacks Mr. Assad, Mr. Trump said, “we end up fighting Russia, fighting Syria.”
On a different foreign hot spot, the Israel-Palestine situation, which Mr. Trump called “the war that never ends,” he said he hoped to help craft a resolution between them.
“That’s the ultimate deal,” Mr. Trump said. “As a deal maker, I’d like to do…the deal that can’t be made. And do it for humanity’s sake.””
http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-willing-to-keep-parts-of-health-law-1478895339
I really, really would like to believe that Obamanists were actually selling this policy change to the Ruskis, not givn’t for free…
Since Trump’s election the GBP has risen sharply, at least most in our government do seem to realise what a God send Trump’s victory is to us as we negotiate Brexit. For Presdient Trump’s first foray abroad I suggest he goes Britain and Ireland, the Visegrad countries and then Russia. He will get a good reception. I wouldn’t bother with Hollande and Merkel, they are lame ducks anyway.
thanks to Degringolade at top of thread for Regency President(s).
also am guessing something of an Imperial Palace syndrome sets in once they take office and become cocooned in all those layers of security and the narratives of the official epistemologists aka reality makers aka advisors.
some thoughts about the “peaceful demonstrators”/rioters Maidan?
1. Will it come out that they were put together by a Soros dominated organization? Even recruited off Craig’s List?
2. What’s missing here is a foreign ambassador, such as Vicky Nuland or Ford, handing out cookies or praising the demonstrators?
3. Also missing is CIA hires sniping from rooftops at police and demonstrators to egg on and sharpen the conflict.
4. Is Only reason the US government has never been overthrown is that there is no American Embassy in Wash, DC?
for historical reference, there has been one coup d’etat on American soil
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilmington_insurrection_of_1898
not advocating the following, b/ just for historical reference. Another time, place, a young Napoleon cleared the streets of Paris w/ a whiff of grapeshot.
ked
As I have defined it, the Borg is what Obama calls the Foreign Policy Establishment. This is the commentariat, academy concerned with foreign policy, foreign policy focused media, think tanks. All of these form a coherent body of group think motivated internationalists who are very influenced by neocon and R2P thinking. Deep State is a term from Turkish politics denoting a conspiracy of opinion makers that extends to school teachers, military officers, police, business men, etc. The concept is that these conspirators form a separate and parallel establishment of government. There is nothing like that in the US. pl
pl, it appears there are multiple definitions of “deep state.”
There is a very good book by former Republican Mike Lofgren called “The Deep State: The Fall of the Constitution and the Rise of a Shadow Government” https://www.amazon.com/Deep-State-Constitution-Shadow-Government/dp/0525428348/
One of the reviewers at Amazon shared their understanding of the term “deep state” after reading the book…
“In a nutshell, the Deep State as Lofgren describes it is a combination of elected and appointed members of the legislative and executive branches; and corporate insiders, especially the military-industrial complex, Wall Street, and Silicon Valley. Together, fueled by enormous amounts of money, they effectively control the country, regardless of which party is in power or the wishes of the electorate. Lofgren believes the ‘Deep State’ in its current form began with the Manhattan Project during WW II.”
Some info on Lofgren here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Lofgren
Not quite the definition of the Borg you use, but when I was reading the book I loosely equated the Borg with the Deep State.
Lofgren does not discuss any sort of parallel gov’t in his use of the term deep state. He seems to use ‘deep’ to mean something like “extending far down from the top or surface” (from Dictionary.com). Lofgren is quite concerned about the revolving door between corporations and gov’t positions (and think tanks), and how that effects the direction of the gov’t.
From what I read, Bill Moyers encouraged Lofgren to write this book. This past year since it came out, I observed many columnists have referred to it when discussing the deep state.
I have recommended this book to many people. It does not presuppose a high level of knowledge, it’s well written and it’s non-partisan (or perhaps anti-partisan).
To Shaun – I was reporting on what is being said about Trump by our media, and how that is influencing people here. I hope that didn’t give you the impression I myself share those views.
I don’t. I know little about your President-elect but I watched some of his campaign speeches and as an individual he comes across to me, as I said, not as the cartoon monster the media paint him as but as a normal if outsize personality. As a politician – well, I think he’s going to be what you make of him. With continuing popular support he’ll be able to clean things up. Without it he won’t. Even this early on there are on this site indications that the killing will let up as a result of his victory so that’s on the credit side already.
It is not that Obama has suddenly come to his senses so much as it is that the election of Trump changes the calculus for him as he is now going to hand off the Syria baton to someone who is going to run in a very different direction than Clinton would have. The change in policy has been done to facilitate this transition, a positive development.
Well, Tyler, I don’t like him either. So what. LBJ once said ‘I’m the only president you have got’. As for all those pampered children in Major Universities with their special ‘cry rooms’ and ‘comfort puppies’ who can’t accept the reality of a perfectly legitimate election, they need to grow up and get over it. He won. That’s good enough.
Will,
I think there is some truth in that. I don’t believe he ever ensure to support them but was overruled.
Col. Lang,
I’ve listened to Turkish interpreter and whistleblower Sibel Edmonds talk about what she knows about The Deep State in the US and blackmail by those to control others. She can be found on YouTube
Cee et al
someone will have to give me a link to the Edmonds material. I am not going to search for it. pl
I have to agree with this. I have no idea where Trump is going and neither does anyone else. He promised to recognize Jerusalem as capital by moving the embassy there, which the Borg would like. Now he has, reportedly, backed off. He promised to rip up the Iran deal, now he is backing off. He sounds like he will be less hostile to Russia, but Bolton’s name gets floated for Cabinet. People are just reading into him what they want.
Steve
Will, curious why you choose 2.718 and not simply Will-e, or Willie for that matter.
CIA hires sniping from rooftops at police and demonstrators
I would be interested in facts, urban legends and rumors around this issue. 😉
All of these form a coherent body of group think motivated internationalists who are very influenced by neocon and R2P thinking.
Thanks, I am a bit struggling with the Borg.
Human Rights, as philanthropic heart-felt enterprise, versus Human Rights used as political weapon?
With many, many players that may not ever know to what extend they play or are played with?
i said to honor Euler. there’s lots & lots of reports about the Kiyev Ukrofascist Maidan coup and what happened in Syria. The pix at the top of the post is very instructive. The Kerrys & Assads dining in a cosmopolitan setting. Then a few years later, Ambassador Ford openly traveling around trying to overthrow the government and the CIA covertly trying to overthrow it using weaponized Wahhabi and the Ikhwan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_(mathematical_constant)
The New York Times says that the Wall Street Journal says from an interview with Trump that: “President-elect Donald J. Trump said Friday [11 November] that he was likely to abandon the American effort to support ‘moderate’ opposition groups in Syria who are battling the government of President Bashar al-Assad, saying ‘we have no idea who these people are’.”–
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/12/world/middleeast/donald-trump-syria.html?_r=0
(Browser ‘cookies’ need to be turned on to view the article.)
Brilliant reply Tyler, truly the soul of wit and edifying as usual.
You are correct, I don’t like Trump almost as much as I didn’t like Clinton, very close. I can give many considered reasons, based in arguable fact to support my dislike of her. Likewise with Trump – all considered and ready for examination. What I’m looking for a rational reason – look it up, the dictionary will give you guidelines – for why you support him.
I’ve yet to hear a reason supported by any evidence linked to actual reality as why you think he is going to do such a stellar job. So please do enlighten us all but do keep the juvenile name calling bullshit to a minimum if you are capable and remember that productive argument requires points linkable in some way to objective reality. Or if you’re just going to insult people, reddit has plenty of channels that are much more your speed.
Completely agree – elections have consequences and everyone saying “not my president” have missed the point. That’s not to say they should not protest the rhetoric or the policy or the results when he’s had a chance to run the show for a while. For better or worse, whether you’re a republican or not, they own that fully now. In two to four years we’ll know how it all turned out.
Maybe I am an optimist but I have always considered the deep state to be people like you, Colonel Lang. I think of Major General Smedley Butler, who exposed the plot against FDR.
I was impressed with Tyler’s article on Trump’s success but I worry that Trump is against the Matrix, that multi-tentacled beast that seems to subvert everything. With all its money and power, can one man confront that and live?
More likely this is a ‘clean-up’ operation. Or at least one that provides a certain degree of plausible deniability if a later, post-Obama government decides to investigate the whole Syrian debacle.
It is now known that money & material from the US/Saudi/Qatar alliance was going to the worst extremist Islamic rebels in Syria. And that weapons from the wreck that is now Libya were being funneled to these worst elements, probably via Benghazi. And that circumstantial evidence (i.e. events such as the US airstrike on the Syrian Army’s outpost that a] scuttled the ceasefire, & b] resulted in Al Nusra taking that outpost after the strike concluded; photographs of McCain with the eventual leaders of Al Nusra/AQK in Syria … etc…) seems to indicate a level organizational assistance by the US to these extremist groups, and of operational coordination existing between these extremist elements and the US after they were formed.
All of which means there must be a hell of a lot of incriminating proof on the ground – people and things – in Syria that must be eliminated.
So, by targeting ISIL now, finally, Obama is also attacking and (he hopes) eliminating anything & anybody that might be willing/able at a later date to say ‘Yes, we were working for the Americans the whole time’, as well as provide a counter narrative, such as ‘How can we (the Obama administration) be accused of working with these horrible people, when we so clearly tried to destroy them?’
Frankly, this is the tactic of criminals almost as old as prostitution.
Colonel Lang,
Here is a post on the same Rigorous Intuition blog from which I got the post about the Rabin Assassination, only this post is about some things that Sibel Edmonds found out.
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/02/sibels-way.html
Sibel Edmonds material appears to be scattered thinly here and there. Her blog might be a jumping off point to various scattered material.
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/02/sibels-way.html
DC
There is no proof offered just conspiracy theory imaginings. pl
pitch pole
“What I’m looking for a rational reason – look it up, the dictionary will give you guidelines” You are not allowed to insult people here. Understand? pl
Lochearn
Well then I am a Deep State of one. p
shaun
I would like you to start writing in complete and intelligible sentences. pl
Colonel,
After mulling for a day and seeing the reverses of Donald Trump campaign promises, I’ve decided that Barack Obama changed Syria policy because he could after the defeat of the Clinton faction. Also, a good portion of the corporate world turned on Hillary Clinton because of her obvious corruption. Terry McAuliffe giving $500,000 to the wife of the FBI’s deputy director.
The Urban Elite should reconsider forcing Donald Trump to morph into an Eric Cantor. The same old same old won’t cut it with mid-America. Cities can’t survive without the water, food and electricity that comes from rural America.
VV
I have tried to explain to you all that what Trump said during the campaign means nothing to him. He has no ideology and will do what he thinks necessary to preserve his power and influence with his base. BTW a lot of you are cooperating with the MSM in trying to force him to futilely execute “promises” he made. This is a further effort to destroy him and equivalent to “fact checking” every word he said during the campaign. pl
Yes. I’m beginning to think you are. Bless you and your family.
Trump merely said it was lousy deal he would look at again. He was always very careful what he said. Was an obvious mere talking point to look tough. The Jerusalem thing was also an obvious sop to the Zionists, his real desire was a peace process and for Israel to pay back US aid, as initially expressed.
LondonBob
Pay us back? Pay us back? Except for Lend Lease nobody has ever paid us back for anything except the Finns after WW1. pl
Curious as to why the definition is limited to the Foreign Policy Establishment? Domestic policy is more diverse, true, but the end results are similar with the same self service of borgist elites.
-Pitch
Apologies – was responding to Tyler’s CTR aspersions.
Pitch
that’s a good point. I have been mulling over a supplementary term. I focused on the FPE because that is the focus of my life but you are right. The domestic manifestation of the same smug self satisfied “we are the future” forces needs a descriptor. Suggestions? Hyperborg? pl
Pitch
OK. I am trying to get everyone, including him, to stop doing that. pl
PL – I think what many are struggling with is if anything he said during the campaign means nothing to him and no one seems be able to determine what he might do in any given instant, what was the basis of voting for him?? The closest recent historical parallel would seem to be GWB – and even he had some ideological underpinnings from his family and deep ties to the republican party to which one could point.. .
Also, I’m not sure if all those who voted for him have such flexible interpretations of what he said or promised. Surely some of them are counting on having the promises honored?
Pitch
Having negotiated with people like him, I would say that he thinks that if he keeps delivering goodies at a good rate, that will make ideological opposition impotent. Basically, if the deal makes you money you stop resenting the BS. He is not a politician. pl
Thanks. So all we really need is a Trump to English interpreter so we can always know what he really means when he says things. Lewis Carroll had a character in his book that would have understood this. Anyway, hope you are right.
Steve
Not so much an effort to destroy him, just trying to figure out what he will do. If everything he said during the campaign meant nothing, how do we really have any idea what he will do now? All speculation. If your point is that we should just give up on guessing and wait to see what he actually does, ok I am with you.
Steve
eeeww
Colonel,
Donald Trump has to deliver on his promise of creating “big-league” jobs. Schools have stopped giving out homework because homeless kids don’t have flat surfaces to work on.
http://www.kgw.com/news/education/portland-elementary-school-adopts-no-homework-policy/318994137
NYC, DC, San Jose or Seattle cannot successful wall themselves off from the rest of America.
You made my day ! It’s not a matter of wealth, it is an attitude, a way of dealing with problems.
So far I am not ” excited”, but at the end of a long life I’m perfectly able to recognize a guy who has this capacity to decide.
That is why I say that Tump advisors will advise and only advise.
You can be a boss, because you have been designed to be so, or because you have this kind of “gift” that made people follow your orders, sometimes the two are combined. And when, soldiers, NCOs,platoon leaders, comcoy and so on are just happy.
I should give you many examples of men that at first sight, were common people and become truly leaders when “heavy rain” fall down.
Those who have been in the army here, know what I mean.
FYO, I am not US citizen, so completely outside REP vs DEM mind-set.
Standard operating procedure for any outgoing Administration. It will be interesting and informative to see who gets the traditional day-before-departure Presidential pardons.
Do you think, we, the euros are so stupid? Do you think people ovethere have no brains? You mix our local Borg and people.
Two month ago, I attented a meeting with old friends, one of them a four stars general and he said : ” Russians are doing a very good job in Syria, but I can’t say that publicly “.
Hollande do what he want, he is president anyway, but people are not blind.
Robert C,
Thanks for the feedback, and please add two more things to your list of what I haven’t the slightest on: What you are referring to and your point.
Sir
In reading about the response to the election it seems the Hillarybots are suffering cognitive dissonance. Scott Adams provides a good explanation of what is going on.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-12/election-unleashed-cognitive-dissonance-cluster-bomb
What we know of Trump’s actions during the campaign is that he tries stuff like an entrepreneur and if they’re not working he makes changes as a good business manager. We should recognize that he’ll likely try many things which may not work out in which case he’ll most likely change course because as you noted he’s not ideological. Many will continue to suffer cognitive dissonance because they don’t have the flexibility in their own thinking. Those that opposed him because his demeanor doesn’t apply to their sense of behavior will never accept him and will find plenty of justifications to reinforce their confirmation bias. We realistically don’t know what his first year will be like but those that expect something linear will surely be rattled. What I see with many of the posts is in many ways concern trolling.
Swap “lupine” for “vulpine” in paragraph #3 and I agree wholeheartedly.
Never said it had anything to do with wealth. A cursory look around abounds in examples: the current crop of generals, ceo’s, heads of investment banks, career pols and their hangers on. In 2000 we sort of elected a decider – one unburdened by knowledge or hardwon experience, that didn’t work out so well. Your impression of him perhaps is shaped by his reality show, maybe? His business dealings have hardly been a model of success or steady leadership; multiple chapter elevens, disgruntled vendors cheated of money, much appearance of success but few details. The television appearance of brilliant success and crassly marketed veneer of leadership is no substitute for the real thing.
aleksandar,
If I implied in some way Euro’s are stupid I regret doing so. Some posts earlier suggested this election was about FP. My assumption was ignorance.
What we also know is that when he gets in trouble he declares bankruptcy. I don’t really think that there is an equivalence in government. He also had the ability to fire people with his businesses. He is going to find out they every Congressman and Senator also won their own races. They don’t work for him. We also know that when he didn’t want to pay people, he entangled them in lawsuits. Again, he won’t be able to do this in govt. We also know that when he has ventured outside of real estate, he hasn’t been that successful. So, while his skills may translate into good leadership in govt, there are a lot of reasons to suspect they won’t.
Query- I have tried to think of successful businessmen who have done well in govt. Cant think of many. Romney of course, and many have been named to cabinet positions. Who else?
Steve
Hoover?
As to Scott Adams wisdom… that’s what America needs in the WH – an experimentalist w/o experience (but a short attention span), surrounding himself with similarly well-informed, well-adjusted senior executives.
Thanks. Bad mistake.
So glad you agree. I meet few who do.
The fact is none of us know how he’ll perform. Maybe he is another Obama that accomplished nothing for his Democrat base even with a Democrat majority in Congress and turned out to be fully bought and paid for by Wall St and coopted by the Borg. Or maybe not. He has the same opportunity as Obama did with a GOP majority in Congress. We’ll know the score card in 2 years. I know you’ll whine when he and the Republicans enact their agenda which will not comport with your leftist thinking.
I voted for Trump and I’ll be very satisfied if all he accomplishes is keep us out of a shooting match with the Russians. OTOH, no matter what he accomplishes guys like you will keep sniping and foaming in the mouth because you detest the man. Your team blew it as millions that supported you guys 4 years ago abandoned your Borg Queen this week. Better to reflect on that.
The Hillary campaign blared your exact message from the ramparts. And they had a big megaphone of big media, the pundits, the establishment of both parties and all the big money from Wall St to Hollywood. The voters that supported him and those that abandoned her didn’t really care. They’re giving the deplorable man a chance.
Jack, I’ve noted among others these days – in personalizing a critique they make gross assumptions about the pov of people they don’t know. I consider that a form of generalization that weakens one’s argument… even as it discourages dialog (though it is itself sometimes revealing… “sniping & foaming” , “I know you’ll whine”). … It seems common these days. In people whom I do know well, I find that pattern be associated with some other characteristic – typically an insecurity over command of facts combined with the mode of personalizing all kinds of disputes. Since I do not participate on SST in order to make personal points vs other posters, but rather about the affairs and actors of the Nation & its place in the world, you won’t find me responsive to personalized assessments such as you have made, linking me to positions or groups that I do not identify with… like those in your post that start “You…” & “Your…”, even (especially!) when in error.
Piotr,
Since we all benefit from the elimination of jihadista terrorists, the elimination of them from Syria is beneficial to us as well as to Russia. So even if we didn’t get Russia to “pay us” something for this policy shift, virtue is its own rich reward in this case.
ked
“in personalizing a critique they make gross assumptions about the pov of people they don’t know”
I have read your posts on SST and the POV thereof. Of course I could be wrong if what you post does not reflect your POV, but some imaginary character.
ked, You can sneer at Scott Adams’ wisdom all you want. At least he understood what was going on and in the Summer of 2015 predicted that Trump would win the Republican nomination and the presidency and why!
Where was your wisdom??
Dear Host, Deep State is not as sinister as it sounds. All it represents is the apparatus of State which does not change between administrations. Mainly the bureaucracy (military and civilian), plus embedded actors like lobbyists, media barons, financial oligarchs, tenured professors and ruling class actors like Bolton and Wolfowitz. And as you say, yourself and other real-world participants who have an ongoing effect on government policy. In the end, the deepest State is the sovereign will of the People; slow to anger but Earth-shaking when roused.
He made but one promise: Make America Great Again
The rest is a mishmash
A summary is below
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/full-list-donald-trump-s-rapidly-changing-policy-positions-n547801
The question I have is whether this obsfuscation is deliberate on Trump’s part or does he simply think out loud.
Sorry. Edmonds mentions Denny Hastert, Bob Creamer…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7XMoejT3lKs
Thats where your cost/efficiency calculator should click in. Is it better to have them as a militia in Syria, or to have them dispersed and on the desperate run across the world?
Fnord73
What makes you think they can’t do both? The amount of resources needed for international terrorist ops is fairly trivial. pl
My friends in the baltic countries are not so happy. Remember how they contributed in both Af/Pak and IRaq?
I think “Lets give the Middle East to Putin” is a pretty smart move. We in the west should be joyous that he goes in. (We should hold training exercises for the russian infantry on how to avoid civilian casualties, though).
I will remember those words when the tactical nuke falls on Raqqa.
Fnord73
You are new here. SST is a serious place for serious but not solemn people. It is not a place for posting comments that are irresponsible imaginings about “tactical nukes’ in Syria, Iraq, or anywhere else. Also, don’t get in the habit of send me half a dozen snippets a day. pl
A totaly unqualified boss. It will be interesting, in the chinese sense of that words meaning.
Fnord73
Would you say that A. Lincoln was “qualified” to be president? pl
” The consensus of the bien pensants and the politicians alike is that no less a figure than the President-elect of the United States is racist, economically illiterate, vindictive, and a buffoon. Plus just about anything else that can be fished out of the dregs of that American campaign – homophobic, populist (how did that get to be an insult?), misogynistic, anti-Semitic, the lot.”
Lets break that down. He is a racist to a certain extent, in the New York sense, he doesnt hate the others but he talks about the blacks. Economicaly illiterate remains to be seen, his plans for “The Wall” is not doable. Vindictive is a proven fact, still hunts enemies. Buffoon? Time will tell.
He is not homophobic, his best friend is the bi swinger —————-. But the defense of the Baltic states is what is up now. They *contributed*.
Fnord73
This is a US site not a Baltic States site. Perhaps the Baltic states made a bad bet in signing up for NATO. Russia is next door. The US is far away. I wouldn’t give one American soldier’s life for the Baltics. pl
Sort of , yes, he was a lawyer wasnt he? But he made something fine. Donald Trump has Steve BAnnon and Mike Pence as wingmen, they are fascists. This is the new age of hate.
(Does mentioning central players by name break this sites politics?)
Fnord73
Are you an American? you don’t know that Lincoln was a corporate lawyer who lobbied for the Illinois Central Rairoad in the state legislature. that was his core business. He had one term in congress and was defeated for re-election. The politics of this site? Listen to me you little shit. You do not slander people on my site. I don’t care what party they are. you are banned from SST. pl
the term fascist is pretty overused. Most people are complex, they may have some type of basic ideological basis. But beyond that they have to make in their own subjective limited ways sense of a pretty complex context. Thus none of us may be really safe from being called a fascist at one point or the other in their life. I know, since I was called one once. Pretty surprising at the time. The author of the statement, has forgotten it long ago. Not me though. 😉
On the other hand, I did occasionally walk out of cacophonous choirs. Which might well show I have a basic level of distrust in basic democracy? How did I decide it was cacophony. As a rule the people that have the least to say or add are the most outspoken, just like babbling me.
Fnord73, are you new here? Somewhat tracing the Illuminati or other possible suspects? Fnord? Is 73 what it seems to be?
Totally agree he’s not a politician. I’m not sure if he’ll be able to spread the goodies around enough to keep everyone happy. The republicans have been in more or less civil war for a while, not sure how he can finesse that rift.. the biggest losers in the republican tent I’m guessing will be the deficit hawks, if he follows through no the infrastructure and defense spending.
pitch
you know that it is impossible to satisfy everyone. pl
See Peter Dale Scott
http://www.lobster-magazine.co.uk/intro/search.cgi?zoom_query=deep+state&zoom_and=1
The term “deep state” relates to the term “deep politics” or “parapolitics” as defined by Peter Dale Scott.
IMO there is not any policy change, just Russia start to destroy ISIS when the US were doing nothing than even US start to destroy ISIS & jhadis to look nice
Yes, you certainly could be wrong. I suggest you stick with characterizations about important people & topics, rather than unimportant people like those you imagine things about.
My wisdom, what little there may be of it, resides where it always has.
ked
Are you giving me unsolicited advice as to what I should write about? pl
It seems then that the Borg is the neo-con/liberal faction of the Deep State. I hope Trump can give succour to the Patriotic faction of the Deep State, and send the Borg back where they belong. I guess we are going to have to see purges; legal proceedings, career-ending scandals (they all have closets) and quiet retirements.
We all know the penalty for Treason.
Here is a Russian analysis video that shows a sniper hitting protesters from the viewpoint of the camera, behind the line of skirmish, from up above in the hotel. Note the State Dept. and the CIA each had rented a floor of the hotel, but that doesn’t prove anything. The bullets clearly hit trees when they miss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnBa0Uj3Ijw
one of the first things the neo-fascists did when they took power was to cut down the trees in this square.
Russian “The Goblin” pointed out that all police guns’ signatures are registered, and, using modern forensics, if the new government had wanted to prove that the sniping had actually been done by police, they would have analyzed the scratches on the bullets and wrapped it up pretty quickly. Instead, the sniping was swept under the rug.
also that it takes huge amounts of money to feed and house an army of protesters camped out for months on end.
There’s also a rumor/movie the revolutionaries had captured some special policemen two days before, beat them up, and stole their uniforms. Then a rumor that there were special policemen moving around on that day but moving like amateurs, not professional soldiers. However not as well substantiated as the analysis.
there are other videos on YouTube if you search.
Unfortunately, this report indicates that Obama has gotten only part of the reality right regarding fighters in Syria;the other jihadi groups fighting against the Assad regime under the label FSA, with support from Turkey et al, are not that much different from Nusra and ISIS save for a lack of immediate/immediate interest in attacking the West. THESE are the “moderate” forces…or did we miss something? If they were to be a part of any future government in Syria, it will be a disaster for the Syrian people, and not just the minorities among them. Rather than seeing refugees and IDPs returning to their homes to rebuild, you would likely see a permanent diaspora. The only forces that seem to be non-Islamist are the SDF: Kurdish, Bedouin and Christian groups that are the most effective fighters against ISIS.