Speaking from his home, Gulen claimed democracy in Turkey could not be achieved through military action.
He condemned the plot, although authorities in Ankara are not convinced.
He said: 'There is a slight chance, there is a possibility that it could be a staged coup. It could be meant for court accusations and associations.'
He added: 'It appears that they have no tolerance for any movement, any group, any organisation that is not under their total control.'
"President Erdogan told a crowd chanting for the death penalty on Saturday that such demands may be discussed in parliament after a coup attempt by a faction in the military killed at least 161 people.
Looking relaxed and smiling, giving an occasional thumbs up to his supporters in Istanbul, Erdogan said the coup attempt had been carried out by a minority in the army.
He said: 'The army is ours, not that of the parallel structure. I am chief commander.'
Earlier Erdogan urged the US to extradite Gulen claiming Turkey never turned down an extradition request from Washington for 'terrorists'." Daily Mail
————
Basically, Sultan Tayyip I demands that Obama hand over this man, a former ally of his and a perceived present rival. If Obama comes to heel and delivers the man he should understand that he is submitting to an oriental potentate. He has bowed to various foreign persons in the past. Perhaps he should visit Turkey to repeat the act. In olden times the sultan/caliph of the Ottoman Empire routinely had his younger brothers drowned in the Bosporus to consolidate his rule. Tayyip seems to be bent on Ottomanization of the dying secular Turkish Republic. Why would we think he would deal with a captive Gulen on a compassionate basis?
IMO we should begin to think of the ultimate limits of Tayyip's ambitions. Thus far he has successfully bullied and blackmailed the EU into paying him 6 BILLION Euros to stop sending migrants across the Aegean Sea. He has embarked on a campaign of suppression of civic liberties in Turkey. He has actively supported ALL the jihadi movements in Syria. Only recently has he desisted from supporting IS but he continues to be the biggest supporter of the non-IS jihadi groups. The only reason he abandoned IS was that they began to threaten him. Without his Turkey's help the Nusra Front and the rest of the menagerie of jihadi groups would be carrion by now. What are the limits of his ambition?
pl
Colonel,
The only reason he abandoned IS was that they began to threaten him.
Well that’s why that butcher ( yep under his watch 178 Kurds were burnt in Cizre), commander of the 2nd Army Gen. Adem Huduti, responsible for securing the border with Syria, Iraq and Iran was arrested for coup attempt.
What a good way to shut up someone who allowed the navette of the Jihadists in and out of Syria, for closing his eyes when Erdogan fils was trading in ISIS oil and, who knows, for letting in the Turkmen from Central Asia.
This is a guess. But here is my bet
http://users.humboldt.edu/ogayle/declinemap.gif
Sir
It seems the real coup was the Sultans. Now he will overthrow what was left of their constitution and rule as he pleases. And of course feather the nests of all the cronies.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3693976/Narcissist-threatens-MARK-ALMOND-tells-Erdogan-seen-president-abuses-office-benefit-family-cronies.html
Let’s see how the feckless Obummer acts. And we’ll also see what MigrantsRus Merkel does?
The limits of his ambitions are set by friendly Russia and Armenia to North and NE, Cyprus, Syria and Irak to the South, Greece and Bulgaria to the West and an Iranian regime that is on the edge to the West. If only E.U. & U.S.A. recognize that Erdogan & Al Saud & Al Thani are the problem, not the solution, these limits can be inforced. The enforcing agent will be Kurdish freedom fighters.
There are multiple schisms in the Islamic World; one is between the Observant and the non-Observant – which also coincides with the question” “What is the relationship of Freedom and Islam?”
Saudi Arabia’s response is to suppress – on daily basis – any whiff of “non-observance” and deny that there is any need or notion of Freedom in Islam – Sharia has prescribed and delimited the contours of human autonomy and that is the final word on that subject.
AKP is another variant of Muslim Brotherhood and as far as I can tell there is no qualitative difference between Ikhwan’s position on this subject and that of Saudi Government and Establishment.
Here’s a sober analysis of the coup attempt:
http://thesaker.is/andrew-korybko-analysis-of-turkish-coup-attempt/
GF
If we were to freebase for a moment about Erdogan going full Ottoman. One could speculate about three phases: internal control, estrangement from the west, and new expansionism.
We are witnessing a consolidation of control and extinction of secular Turkey. Judiciary and army. This may take a few years like Germany 1930s but we seem well on that journey.
Estrangement from NATO and the West. Use of Gulen to paralyze Obama in a diplomatic debate while the NATO alliance with Turkey shifts toward a Pakistan type relationship of distrust and pseudo cooperation which has been building since 2003. Germans pull forces out of Incirlik first over diplomatic spat, then others quietly make there excuse to leave with US left to figure out how to find an alternate air base perhaps in Iraq and how to get the nukes off base. Yet 20 or so of them belong to Turkey and are unlikely to leave when we pull out. Estrangement becomes separation. The economic blackmail of Europe with refugees will likely come to a bitter end. Grey Wolves howl. Turkey’s economic situation will slide badly as debt refinancing becomes impossible in hard currency and Erdogan will not jack up interest rates like Putin but let hyper inflation take its toll on the poor. Syrian refugees given Turkish citizenship. NATO’s largest army, under new management, leaves the alliance in a few years.
Ottomans look for new alliances with Pakistan and China? Arms deals between Pakistan and Turkey are already stepping up. A push of the Turkish military toward Mosul and Raqqa plus adjacent oil fields under some ethnic pretext? Ergogan’s son-in-law becomes very wealthy but donates to religious charities with vigor. The brotherhood tries to resurrect itself in Egypt. Greece reaches out to Russia with both hands. Nothing good for the Kurds. Could, would and exhausted Syria resist a real Turkish push south? And if you were Sunni Arab in Mosul considering the options, would Turkey be a bad one relative to Iraq’s Shia militias return or having your home leveled by bombardment against IS from coalition aircraft? Turkey starts to take a renewed interest in Libya’s oil industry and charities. Emergent ethnic issues in southern Russia rekindled by the Ottoman unleashed. US-Russian relations receive positive prod from Trump.
Again a freebased thought exercise for a crazy world.
bth
One more time – THEY DO NOT BELONG TO TURKEY. http://thebulletin.org/status-us-nuclear-weapons-turkey
“Today, Turkey hosts an estimated 90 B61 gravity bombs at Incirlik Air Base. Fifty of these bombs are reportedly assigned for delivery by U.S. pilots, and forty are assigned for delivery by the Turkish Air Force. However, no permanent nuclear-capable U.S. fighter wing is based at Incirlik, and the Turkish Air Force is reportedly not certified for NATO nuclear missions, meaning nuclear-capable F-16s from other U.S. bases would need to be brought in if Turkey’s bombs were ever needed” pl
Noted. Thanks for correction.
GF
Sober? Ah, I see, you want to pin this on the US. pl
I think comparing Turkey and Pakistan in an analogical manner is misleading and not illuminating in understanding Turkey or her foreign and domestic policies.
I also think that such a comparison is insulting to Turkey.
Turkey is superior to Pakistan; factually.
Agreed. Turkey is superior in every way.
This comment comes from today’s post by b.
(Though Gülen’s alleged $25 billion charter school empire, his ties to the CIA and to the Clinton Foundation cast doubt on any claim that he is driven by religious morality.) Erdogan called the coup a “gift of god””
I wonder if Gulen’s phone number got picked by a certain compromised server? It would be valuable to a political rival and personal enemy, especially one with access to a state’s resources to keep track of it over the years.
There is a nagging suspicion on The Coup’s inept performance which, to me, bears the hallmark of the Bakery Bunch’s cookbook for color coups. If you know every step the new crew is making it will be easy to wreck the recipe and even select the time and place to your desire by having your infiltrators instigate it.
One of our community members hasn’t posted since that day. His writings overtime on his country shows that he would have been out on the street believing that it was the moment he hoped for. May it be well with him.
Some interesting details in this Reuters piece
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-plot-insight-idUSKCN0ZX0Q9
At height of Turkish coup bid, rebel jets had Erdogan’s plane in their sights
/q/
The former military officer said the coup plotters appeared to have launched their attempt prematurely because they realized they were under surveillance, something corroborated by other officials in Ankara.
“They weren’t fully prepared. The plans were leaked, they found out they were being monitored and it all apparently forced them to move faster than planned,” the ex-officer said.
They also underestimated Erdogan’s ability to rally the crowds, his appeal for supporters to take to the streets bringing people out in Istanbul, Ankara and elsewhere even as tanks took to the streets and jets screamed overhead.
/eq/
The F-16 following Erdogan’s jet had their radars on but did not shoot. The whole issue had ended vastly different if they had done so. Will they feel remorse over it?
Any one here doubt that DHS has Gulen under a microscope? Surveillance by the FBI all coms tapped by the NSA. Either he didn’t have the breathing room to instigate a poker game or the administration was in it up to their eye balls. I believe the former rather than the latter, but I see absolutely no middle ground.
b
Does the F-16 thing not convince you that this was a phony coup? If this had been a real coup they would have killed him, very easy to do. They were not authorized to kill him by the senior officers who were cooperating with Erdogan in this farce. Look at the forces employed in the “coup.” They were tiny. Sources of mine in Turkey insist that this was a “set up” designed to fail. pl
b,
They rallied crowds that were almost entirely male. I guess the good girls of Turkey decided to stay home Friday and wash their hair.
No, it’s ludicrous bordering on retarded, The Saker has turned to a 110% pro-Russian propaganda machine which is probably not even well received in Russia proper.
As in the French saying “plus royaliste que le Roi”.
bth,
Turkey cannot pursue aggressive policies without external funding. A lot depends on the flow of Saudi and Gulf money. Who controls that flow?
IMO this coup farce has also hurt islamists- the gulen fraction in TSK is now eliminated; secular army officers refused to follow their lead; we have not forgotten Balyoz and Ergenekon. The well-meaning idealists among the civil seculars now see the islamist street rabble as head choppers, not pious folk bent on prayer- this will change how future protests will play out. Finally tayyip is now aware of his mortality. If Russia and the West refuse to play his game, he can be contained quite nicely.
I am not as pessimistic as you are about Turkey’s recovery. There will, probably be civil war; a lot of folks will go to their reward, wet will burn with the dry-but things will change. Give it a few years.
Ishmael Zechariah
IZ
I am assured by Turkish sources that Erdogan and senior officers he had appointed manipulated low level plotting to create a “coup” that could be defeated easily leading to his consolidation of power. Do you agree? pl
Not so quickly.
Pakistan is still ahead on a metric key to surviving as a single entity. Cohesion and supremacy of armed forces in the national pecking order. While Turkey is more than just a geopolitical whore, it has more fissures at this time.
While the botched/staged coup was underway in Turkey, Pakistan’s army continues to show considerable restraint despite calls for them to take over from inept civilian government.
Turkey is just at the beginning stages of evolving into an Islamic state. Pakistan and Iran have a considerable head start. In an Islamic state, armed jihadi/revolutionary militias are the primary means to wage war. And the army is nothing but jihadis in uniform. Turkey cannot rely on its armed forced to fight the Kurds or even hold on to Hatay, if the SAA choses to act on it.
Turkey is very vulnerable in the time duration it takes for the Army to be completely Islamic. Pakistan went through this transition under Bhutto/Zia with our complete protection. No one can shield Turkey through this phase.
Col. Lang,
Sure looks like it from where we sit. The speed and magnitude of tayyip’s response, compared to the ineptitude and scale of the “coup” is quite peculiar. As you have mentioned above, the plotters should have had only one goal- and for achieving that goal they had the opportunity, means and ability. It dd not happen. It might be relevant to remember the tape of MIT and TSK commanders discussing a false-flag operation to attack Syria. These people have read this game book.
Ishmael Zechariah
The administration is now considering making this humiliation complete:
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/kerry-us-awwwill-consider-turkeys-extradition-request-225669
I wonder what President Abadi’s thoughts are at the moment. Does the Iraqi government continue to permit American military operations ? Or does Iraq now turn to Russia ?
Colonel,
Interesting times. Islamists have seized control of Turkey. This is another neo-con disaster forced by the never ending wars. Let’s hope that American nuclear weapon trigger encryption is just as strong as the Russians. The loss of 90 nuclear weapons would elect a Republican Unity government in November. I have no doubt that the neo-liberals will do anything to try to halt Turkey’s rapprochement with Russia and the splintering of the European Union. The rumor that the coup plotters shot down the Russian bomber last year indicates that Turkey is turning towards Eurasia and a multi-polar world. Europe will have to secure its borders and interior ghettos. The spreading chaos is forcing just two options on the West: 1) place its citizens first instead of the ruling few getting insanely rich, or 2) start World War III.
Thomas,
I do hope our fellow pilgrim is safe. He is from Istanbul.
Ishmael Zechariah
Yup, the bearded 40-something set was out in full force, organized and ready to go. The young privates stood no chance other than as sacrificial lambs.
Dear Colonel,
I cant recall exactly where it was said, but there is a saying that was of Russians who stayed up all night talking politics, two are fools and the third an agent provocateur. I agree completely.
According to:
http://www.gonavy.jp/CVLocation.html
and this cool map:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1sBGyGlr10FgCE3ODmS-7GIgH7RI&hl=en_US
The Truman is in the Red Sea. The Eisenhower was in the Red Sea until 10 Jul 206
If the POTUS was going to show some backbone, I would expect another carrier to return to the ME (probably Mediterranean) ASAP. no sign yet, so …
Since I do not see how Obama can extradite and not also hurt Hillary’s campaign (now tough with her lead evaporated while spending $0.5 million per day to Trumps’ $0 per day on ads) to continue his legacy, and no sign of backbone yet (A meme out there is this was people power – source J. Cole, who often parrots admin policy). Some other hefty price will be paid to the Erdogan to secure the freedom of our hostages (I mean guests marooned at Incirlik)
Colonel,
I think you are correct, yes. The number of estimated arrests now stands at 6,000, which would suggest that individuals-groups were previously-targeted.
How will this situation evolve/devolve, in your view? Did Erdogan take the decision to stage a coup now because he is being threatened from multiple sides (economic slowdown/ high youth unemployment/ IS / Kurds / near-breaking-point regional instability)?
A close friend who operates a company in Istanbul and who is quite astute politically recommended a piece in The American Interest (Feb. 2, 2015) by Jenny B. White, “The Turkish Complex” (White is a Professor at Stockholm’s Institute for Turkish Studies). One of the key takeaways from her long-form analysis: “Turks are increasingly dreaming Ottoman dreams”. I found the piece illuminating in my effort to sort out the complexities and nuances of what’s happening in Turkey.
I’m sure there would be many people here celebrating if this coup had been successful and would be cheering it even as bodies piled up on the streets as Turks fought to defend their chosen government. When the US instigates, funds or even just supports a coup to overthrow a popular leader/government these same people are the first to condemn this evil illegal act so what difference makes this same evil illegal act acceptable in Turkey or Egypt?
When Muslim majorities vote to include more Islamic principles into their government/society it seems western exceptionalism rears its ugly head even among the supposed western opposition and that exceptionalism overrules any concern for rule of law or popular will but only for the Muslim world.
This fear based reaction does have a basis in the reality that it is a real threat to the West because it is the first step in dismantling the control of western civilization over the MW.
VV,
” The loss of 90 nuclear weapons…” should result in impeachment and conviction of both the President and VP within a day. I’ld love to know who would vote against either.
IZ
“MIT?” Thomas is Turkish? pl
PeteM
“When the US instigates, funds or even just supports a coup to overthrow a popular leader/government these same people are the first to condemn this evil illegal act so what difference makes this same evil illegal act acceptable in Turkey or Egypt?” This seems internally incoherent. pl
Col. Lang,
“MIT” is the acronym for the National Intelligence Organization of Turkey (“Milli Istihbarat Teskilati”, http://www.mit.gov.tr/eng/index.html ). Sorry for any confusion.
Ishmael Zechariah
P.s: AFAIK, Thomas is not Turkish.
I don’t think it’s incoherent but it isn’t written clearly. The next paragraph explains what I think the ‘difference’ is and why some people chose to discard long held beliefs in democracy, rule of law and popular will in these circumstances.
PeteM
It seems that you are saying that we should apply US domestic standards of behavior to the whole world. I hope you understand that this is what we did in Iraq. If you wish to apply our internal standards to the world then we must control those other countries by force of arms if necessary. pl
Incirlik was re-opened. Not clear when, whether it was yesterday or early today. Some reports claimed 17 airstrikes were carried out on Daesh targets by Incirlik based coalition A/C Saturday.
“What are the limits of his ambition?”
Check with Bibi.
تشکیلات استخبارات ملی
Same wishes from me. I’ve really liked his thoughtful input, if you are speaking of Kunuri.
Hello my gray bearded wise friends, I am touched by your concern. I didn’t think I will be missed. But thank you.
Yes, I am in Istanbul and was on my way to the Asian part of Istanbul where I got a glimpse of the road block from my taxi as we turned around. I must say, I knew immediately something was very seriously wrong, when I noted the equipment, manner and positioning of the soldiers manning the roadblock. It was later reinforced by Leopard tanks, which I saw on TV later, but I was most puzzled why it was blocked one way. Bulk of the TSK armor is in European part of Turkey, why prevent it from reaching Ankara, but not the other way around? On the way back to a long and anxious night of TV and net monitoring, I heard F16s low flying, buzzing and military helicopters not hovering, but racing to places. This couldn’t have been a national mobilization, war, if you will…Only one possibility remained.
To be honest, I wished it to be what I wished, but since I sobered up a little and now am of the opinion of be careful what you wish for. If true, I could not have imagined the scope of infiltration by the Gulen movement into the Armed Forces, itself perhaps only one tick of a more reasonable movement then the current Islamists, still repulsive to me in any way. I can understand the drivel Gulen spurts in his lectures in Turkish, and its medieval. It is sufficiently clear now who did it and why, I was disgusted when I saw the video of an attack helicopter strafing civilians on a wide street, and not to keep them back, or preventing them from getting somewhere. That was the moment, quite early in morning of the 16 th of July, that this coup will never have popular support, and that if it was the legitimate Turkish Army, they would have never done something like that. To me personally, life under a Gulenist junta would not have been very different. What I feared most, however, was a bloody civil war, between the Army and the security forces, loyal to the government and the people taking sides, if it seemed to be a draw, and vicious enough. This did not happen, in fact, scales quickly tipped the AKP way, with no opposition from the opponents of the government however disgusted they are with the AKP. Half of the population may not support RTE, but they will not support a Gulenist putsch either, as it is evident at the moment. Now, any rebel general who will not see that simple reality, is not fit to command even his own dog.
Istanbul lays literally on top of one of the world’s most active tectonic fault lines, underground collecting kinetic energy over time and breaking violently from time to time, causing catastrophic earthquakes. That is why I like small harmless tremors from time to time, knowing that it is not the big one, but happy that energy is released and the big one is postponed until further time. But the fault line is still there, I hope it goes away, but that is unrealistic, I know.
On another note, I am simply disgusted by the performance and apperance of the Turkish Armed forces on the tactical and operational level. Everyone from now on, including myself, will have to be careful when reciting how big and strong the Turkish Army is. You can’t make war in this day and age with mommas boys yesterday 12 month conscripts driving multi million dollar modern tanks. Officer corps also, strong suite of the mostly conscript Turkish Army, will need serious re tooling, and understand that basking in the successes of Ataturk era on the battlefields is no longer enough, all indoctrination, training, command and control and strategy at top levels will have to be retooled for realistic 21st century requirements. I saw what I saw on TV, I catch details that are never on data sheets and TOE tables, an essential part of my profession of Production Designer.
It has been disturbing last four days for me, and perhaps more than a little depressing. Rule by mob and theocratic cleptocracy in Turkey has just irreversibly consolidated its yoke on the rest of us, apparent by the mobs out on streets as we speak now. My hope was that all this will slowly revert back to a time where Turkey was a modern, western country with minimal damage, is gone along with the myth of the proud, mighty Turkish Army, which my father served and fought in Korea with the rest of the world in the 50s.
More on my thoughts about the nature of the events of the last 4 days, once I digest all the information I can and form an opinion worthy of sharing with you all here.
IZ, I live in Istanbul, but am not from here. 30 years in Las Vegas, Nevada, I guess makes me a Las Vegan, but still a Turk.
I read that article by Jenny White, very well informed, insightful and accurate. She runs a blog, kamilpasha.com, I recommend it highly. I have this very article on my desktop for easy reference. I was looking for an opportunity to share it myself, thanks.
Very good to hear from you Kunuri! Glad to hear you are OK. Looking forward to your more thorough opinion on events in Turkey 🙂
Thank you for your commentary and I hope you will continue .
Col.
What is the point of having the weapons there without having the means to deliver them? If you were playing poker it would be a bad bluff, and bringing US F-16’s in would be a tell.
Also much looking forward to your further thoughts — and glad to hear you are OK.
tigershark
My guess would be bureaucratic inertia from the Cold War. pl
Now you have me confused about what I was saying or at least what you think I was saying.
I’m not advocating any action but questioning the ends justify the means attitudes of some people who reject that justification in most circumstances, you may not be in that group but other people here and at other sites such as MOA certainly are, this is inconsistent and arbitrary. I don’t support Erdogan but a majority of Turks seem to and that is their right and that should be respected.
peteM
“and that is their right and that should be respected.” No matter what the consequences? How about the Hitler thing? The Germans elected him. pl
Absolutely. Clearly Hans Oster should never have plotted his coup, and no reasonable human being can have any sympathy for the dilemmas Franz Halder faced, before Munich and after.
Col.
Chuckling softly to myself. Do we learn nothing? Wasn’t that one of the reasons for missiles in Turkey that were removed after the Cuban Missile Crisis?
Babak Makkinejad,
Will Turkey remain superior to Pakistan after Erdogan gets done with it?
Will it even remain equal to Pakistan after Erdogan gets done with it?
No, I am merely an average white guy here in the good old United States.
Kunuri,
10-4 that.
IZ
Yes 2 both your questions.
I think it will be a good idea to read more on Pakistan and Turkey and also accounts of those who have travelled in both countries.
Off-thread.
RE: “In olden times the sultan/caliph of the Ottoman Empire routinely had his younger brothers drowned in the Bosporus to consolidate his rule.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanwu_Gate_Incident
「最無情帝王家。」
“Most vicious those of royal blood.”