SST correspondents report that there is an ongoing Turkish Army coup all over the country to include small towns. The two Bosporus bridges are blocked by the army as would be the case if the cup is centered in Anatolia and the putschists do not want interference from Turkish 1st Army who are based in Thrace. pl
http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/07/turkey-government/491579/
Google translation of military’s statement:
http://t24.com.tr/haber/tsk-yonetime-el-koyuldu,350149
Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) has announced that the country’s government confiscated its entirety .
Turkish Armed Forces said in a statement :
Turkish Armed Forces , the constitutional order , democracy, ensure the repetition of human rights and freedoms and facilities , enabling dominate again the rule of law in the country , deteriorating public security order of confiscated whole administration of the country in order to ensure again.
All international agreements and our commitment remains eçerlilig . with all countries of the world , we hope to continue our good relations .
Chief of Staff
Lots of helicopters flying overhead…. streets are so quiet…
There were some affirmation in Al Masdar today that somme Turkish troops were inside Syria.
Any Kurds project is anathema for the Turk Army.
Erdogan seat is getting hoter and hotter.
(Sound of champagne corks popping in the Assad residence.”
lots of conflicting reports coming out. Possible each power base is trying to psych the other out by claiming victory.
I Imagine Russia has a hand in this?
My oh my…..
A theory:
Turkey’s now former government recently changed their tune and started being super friendly and nice to Russia. I suspect this is because they received word that there would be a coup if Russian – Turkish relationships did not improve because Turkey’s Military did NOT want a souring relationship with Russia. It appears that Turkey’s military did not want to wait for things to improve.
Seeing unconfirmed reports that Tayyip Erdoğan has left the country.
I wonder which side our President is going to decide to back should he be foolish enough to intervene. At the same time I am glad Hilary Clinton is not currently Secretary of State. I wonder if there was anything in those emails though….
This is a game changer. I suppose the Turkish military will want to repair relations with Syria. We will probably also see jihadist attacks on Turkish soil more by those of Turkish origin.
Once the dust is cleared I wouldn’t give a wooden nickel for Isis’s supply lines.
Now we find out whether Erdogan has any real friends.
Mr. Lang,
Do you think this move is being motivated by “Kemalist” nationalism…or that Gulen cult/religious movement?
Russia’s hand is presumably behind this.
Let’s hope that whatever the outcome it results in a more democratic Turkey.
MarkC
Aidan
IMO the general anti-western policy of Erdogan and the Chihuahua’s threat are behind this. pl
Paul Escobar
the initial communique was signed by the chief of the TGS so I think it is Kemalists. p
Now we are starting to see the counter-coup..
Mosques in conservative areas (pro-akp) are calling for followers to enter streets and challenge the military.
And with Syria, Iran, Russia, EU as well.
That would be my guess as well; AKP Government degenerated into alienating everyone – and damaged Democracy in Turkey as well.
Actually there are reports of ‘celebratory gunfire’ in Damascus over celebration at the news.
Yeh, it’s all Putin’s fault just like yesterdays crash in the Tour de France on Mont Ventoux.
Aidan: Would you care to explain how Russia is toppling the government of a NATO member? They can’t even topple the government of Ukraine.
MarkC: Like Sisi did in Egypt? You don’t build democracy by having the military overturn a democratically elected government.
matthew
You prefer elected Islamists bent on creating shariah law states? pl
I was just watching the NBC news in Chicago. The anchorman said ” …Turkey is a US ally in fight against ISIS….”. I could not believe how much crap these news agencies are feeding the public.
Amazing turn of events indeed.
Absolutely not, Colonel. But a coup against a government that cancels elections is totally different than a coup against a government that won an election.
BTW, I’ll shed no tears for Erdogan. His crimes in Syria are unforgiveable.
I’ll give a translation a shot:
TSK: Cumhurbaşkanı gaflet, dalalet ve hatta hıyanet içinde; Yurtta Sulh Konseyi ülke yönetimine el koydu!
“Tüm dünya ülkeleri ile iyi ilişkilerimizin devam edeceğini temenni ederiz”
Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri (TSK) ülke yönetimine bütünüyle el koyulduğunu açıkladı. Açıklamada, “Cumhurbaşkanı gaflet, dalalet ve hatta hıyanet içinde; Yurtta Sulh Konseyi ülke yönetimine el koydu!” dendi.
Türk Silahlı Kuvvetlerinin yaptığı açıklama şöyle:
Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri, anayasal düzenin, demokrasinin, insani hak ve özgürlüklerinin tekrar temin ve tesis, ülkede hukukun üstünlüğünün yeniden hakim kılınması, bozulan asayış düzeninin tekrar sağlanması maksadıyla ülke yönetimine bütünüyle el koymuştur.
Genelkurmay Başkanlığı
TSK’nın bildirisi, TRT ekranlarında okundu. Spiker Tijen Karaş’ın okuduğu bildiriden satırbaşları şöyle:
“Bu ahval ve şerait altında yüce Atatürk’ün önderliğinde milletimizin olağanüstü fedakarlıklarla kurduğu TSK “Yurtta sulh, cihanda sulh” ilkesinden hareketle milletin bekasını devam ettirmek, hukuk devleti önündeki fiili engelleri ortadan kaldırmak, yolsuzluğu engellemek, terörizm ve terörün her türlüsüyle mücadele etmek.”
– TSK: Due to the President’s carelessness, error and even treason; the government in the country has been put into the hand of a Peace Council!
“We wish to continue our good relations with all countries in the world”
The Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) have announced their taking over the entire government. In the accouncement it was said: “Due to the President’s carelessness, error and even treason; the government in the country has been put into the hand of a Peace Council!”
The announcement made by Turkish Armed Forces was this:
For the purpose of ensuring constitutional order, democracy, the continued establishment and provision of human rights and freedoms, once again making the supremacy of law dominant in the country and continuing to save public order from breaking down the entire government of the country was taken over.
Tüm uluslararası anlaşmalarımız ve taahhütlerimiz eçerliliğini korumaktadır. Tüm dünya ülkeleri ile iyi ilişkilerimizin devam edeceğini temenni ederiz.
The validity of all our international agreements and commitments are to be protected. We wish to continue our good relations with all countries in the world.
General Staff
The TSK’s notice was read on TRT screens. Speaker Tijen Karaş’s reading of the notice’s paragraphs was thus:
“Under these circumstances and conditions TSK, founded with the extraordinary sacrifices of our people during glorious Atatürk’s leadership out of the principle “Peace at home, peace in the world”, shall continue the nation’s movement, the de facto obstructions to putting the lawful state first shall be lifted, illegality shall be averted, terrorism and all forms of terror shall be fought.”
———–
I did wish a coup upon Padişah…let’s see whether I’ll rue that wish coming true yet.
matthew
You know very well that Erdogan is/was an enemy of constitutional democracy. What he wanted was what all the Islamists want. if you want to let them use democracy as a tool to get there we part company on this. pl
Turkey is a little different and has a history (post Ataturk) of the military intervening to put down governments that were drifting away from democracy and secularism. It’s even in their constitution, sort of…
All
Twitter abuzz with tweets stating people out in streets challenging military. It’s gonna take some time to know the actual situation.
If the coup fails Erdogan will become the Imperator.
Matthew,
It’s an interesting dilemma. The difference from Egypt is that AKP seems to have much more popular support and legitimacy. They’ve done much better than the MB in Egypt at getting their supporters entrenched in state institutions. We’ll see how this plays out but I wouldn’t be surprised if the coup fails.
Erdogan is blaming this on the Gulenists.
Col: I know you are right about the Islamists, but I’m profoundly suspicious of military coups.
Yes, you see that a lot – using populism to win the vote and then removing rights and ostracising the losers. But winning the vote isn’t equivalent to democracy – it’s what you do next. On this principle it was certain that the Kemalists would act at some point.
Maybe if the coup fails you will see a civil war…..
Erdogan is claiming that this is a Gulen coup.
I suppose that is nonsense, but it would be good to hear from someone from Turkish military background.
Erdogan blaming “gulenist faction in Turkish army”. How much of the Turkish army are conscripts? Will they follow their officers or remain in barracks? To me that is the question.
All,
I lift my head out of my jewelry making for one second… I have never forgotten the neoconservatives wanting the military to take over years ago so now they have their wish. The Kemalist faction are now firing on civilians in the street.
I think Sibel Edmonds gives a balanced perspective
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t4QHsRuEE88
Why would Russia want to topple the government of Ukraine? After the US-funded coup in Kiev, it’s the United States that is seen as anti-democratic, pro-Nazi and pro-corruption. Plus the EU get stuck with the total train wreck that is the Ukrainian economy. As for Russia toppling governments of NATO members, it doesn’t have to, the internal contradictions of capitalism will do it instead and all that’s probably keeping some NATO members on board is fear of another color revolution c/o NED/DNI/IRI/CIA.
Turkey, truly the Pakistan on the Mediterranean. A prolonged tug of war between the Kemalists and AKP will do to Turkey what it did to Syria. It is time for the Kurds to lobby up, hire PR agencies and what not to project their democratic and secular civil society. Thanksgiving is not far away.
Assad must be related to Castro. He has bid farewell to King Abdullah, David Cameron, now Erdogan. In January, he will see a new U.S administration as well. Only assorted Gulfies remain.
Let us see how much the MSM bleats for democracy. My theory is that Erdogan saw the writing on the wall and began executing a bunch of U-turns. It was too late though. I would not be surprised if this was part of the understanding with Russia on Syria. Turkey is paying a price for pretending to be in the big leagues.
Can you please tell me how it is part of their constitution? I’m just curious.
Still a murky picture if the coup will succeed.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/17-turkish-policemen-killed-in-coup-attempters-attack-on-key-building-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=101669&NewsCatID=341
All,
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/whos-afraid-of-sibel-edmonds/
Erdogan denied asylum in Germany (!?), heading for London.
To our Turkish friends, what part do the Gulenists play in this coup?
How could the Turkish Army even attempt this without approval of the West?
On an unrelated topic, Congress released the 28-page document detailing possible links between Saudi officials and Al Qaeda operatives this afternoon. With events in France and Turkey, it sure will be buried. How convenient.
tony
“How could the Turkish Army even attempt this without approval of the West?” In your universe the Turkish Army calls Washington to know if they have permission for a coup? More feeble minded ME thinking. pl
Cee
“the neoconservatives wanting the military to take over years ago so now they have their wish” In turkey? What are you talking about? pl
If you strike the kill, you have to kill the king.
Can someone here provide or direct me to a brief explanation of who the Gulenists are exactly? I’m not that knowledgeable about Turkish internal politics but have a need to understand the current events now underway there. It does seem to me that Erdogan was blaming Gulen for everything going wrong in Turkey and that Guilen himself is living in exile, in the US if I understand correctly.
Now it looks like a failed attempt. But time will tell.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/situation-largely-under-control-after-coup-attempt-turkish-pm-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=101669&NewsCatID=341
I wonder if any US intelligence agencies had any hint of this happening?
It’s a real mess, I don’t like Ergodan’s Islamist-lite policies, but military coups generally aren’t a good way to promote a democratic culture (and I am aware of the special position of the Turkish military in their constitution and their history). I just hope the deaths and injuries are minimal.
The Russian Military and the FSB have minimal presence in Turkey’s Military and Security Forces, no where near enough to trigger a Coup.
Turkey’s Gullen Movement does, but is denying participation,
And NATO’s Gladio Movement has been heavily involved in past Coups.
It seems so far, a segment of the Turkish Military in Coup against Ergodan and pro-Jihadi portions of the Military and Security Forces.
Obama calling on all parties to support the
democratically elected government in Turkey.
“Assad must go” ” Ukraine and Nuland”
Did I miss any? “Honduras?”
Just now on MSNBC, retired General Wesley Clark said that his contacts in the area have told him that ‘things are winding down’ and that some of the coup leaders have turned themselves in. He opines that this will be over tomorrow.
I’m not even convinced this coup is real. Switching back & forth from CNN, FOX, BBC
& various net sites I see pics of soldiers “arresting” soldiers & it all looks more
like a base exercise. No bad vibs what so ever, like a dress rehearsal for a play.
Ataturk style soldiers took their oath to uphold Turkey’s constitution seriously
(Reflect on the oath the U.S. military takes “to protect & defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign & domestic”…Erdogan was preparing to scrub the military in August.
I almost choked drinking water this afternoon when CNN’s Christiane Amonpour implored her audience to respect Erdogan, who she claimed was trying to pattern his government after a U.S. top down rule with a strong president in charge. What?
In other words to hell with the congress, the senate & the courts?? The dems seem all in for Erdogan, just as they were all in for Morsi in Egypt. They seem to think
as long as a leader is democratically elected that it’s ok for said leader to
become dictatorial. Checks & balances exist for good reason. Am I becoming too concerned?
claims now that the coup has failed. If so, dire times for Turkey. Erdogans vengeance is going to be terrible.
Brunswick,
I was thinking more of Russia having made post coup agreements with the coup actors so as to assure support going forward more than pulling strings now.
Colonel:
Is it just me or does it appear to you also that this was quite badly organised and amateurish?
I have never heard of a successful coup that kicked off during daylight hours as this one appears to have done.
Also the ground troops appear to me to have been conscripts.
Du
Dubhaltacch & Elaine
More later but the supposed “coup” was so badly planned, manned and executed that I am inclined to think that the whole thing was a fraud designed to strengthen Erdogan’s hand politically. pl
It would have been bad “OpSec” given the MIT’s capabilities for the Coup Group to either approach Russia, or for Russia to approach the possible Coup members, prior to the Coup.
NATO members Military and Intelligence groups, how ever, have day to day contact with Turkish Military and Intelligence.
Political Islam is the death of a secular Turkey.
Even if the coup succeeds, it will not address the growing masses of semi-literate, frothing Islamists seeking to role-play a society that simulates the 7th century life of Mohammad to the letter.
What is needed is reform, which has never happened in the Islamic world since there is no one body of authority on Islamic doctrine, as this blog has very eloquently pointed out several times.
Right now, Islam acts a military doctrine, guide on etiquette, a political party with a sprinkle of mysticism all bundled into one package.
Without reform, there is only darkness for Islamic societies.
One pathetic coup attempt. Haven’t seen anything like it since the 1991 Soviet coup attempt. There’s a common factor. The decline of the USSR with the Eastern block severing itself without bloodshed had created a great deal of disaffection. Add in rampant corruption and the obvious failure of communism. But the one thing that remained was respect and appreciation for the Soviet military. And then that went South. In the first Gulf War the extremely poor performance of the Soviet arms equipped Iraqis ate away at the public perception of the military. By the time the coup was attempted it simply did not have critical mass. In Turkey’s case much of the respect the military has had with it’s unique position had been eroded. It seems to me much of this was consciously done by Erdogan as he’s moved the country further from what Ataturk created.
Whether designed by intent or executed with stupidity, based on my childhood experience in Iran, Erdogan will come out of this stronger; if/when the coup fails. He will start his own version of Basij (popular militia) and Pasdaran (parallel army). Sultan is on the verge of either being crowned or putting his neck on the guillotine.
The Gulenists seem to be too convenient a target to blame this failed coup on, I thought they were thoroughly purged from the military a few years ago. Russia was the power that had a huge axe to grind with Erdogan and much to gain from his removal even though he was attempting to restore relations.
If my speculation was valid it would probably never be revealed by Erdogan, too embarrassing and too politically sensitive to open that can of worms.
Erdogan will aim to use this as a pretense to move even more aggressively against any and all political, ethnic and religious opposition, and to strengthen his executive powers.
It seems fishy – in this day and age if you were planning to do this with intent are you not going to shut down the Internet, landline and mobile comms networks /entirely/ as the first thing you do, rather than just block a few Internet sites?
If the air force was willing to hit the hotel that sultan HAD been staying at, why would the F-16s not have just shot him down as he was flying into Istanbul? Also, why hit Parliament, when the coup is against the executive?
Never underestimate people’s capacity for incompetence, cock-up not conspiracy. My guess is a small clique is the only way to keep it a secret, they must have been hoping for support to emerge as it got under way. A probably necessary gamble that failed. Erdogan forced to use Skype, gun battles on the streets and divisions in society out in the open, not sure Erdogan comes out stronger necessarily.
US consulate says Turkey’s Incirlik Air Base has been sealed and the power cut off – CNN
Daniel,
Plans to mend fences with Assad too. Now who wouldnt want THAT!!
Col. Lang, SST;
This issue has nuances which we will understand and discuss over the coming weeks. It solves nothing for tayyip or for Turkey-and might have harmed both significantly.
Ishmael Zechariah
IZ
Was this for real or a carefully staged fraud designed to boost Erdogan before further moves against the constitution? I don’t believe any of the numbers I am hearing. They could all be fabricated. pl
Col. Lang,
This is from Wolfowitz back in 2003…
Wolfowitz in Ankara:
US urges military to overrule Turkish government
By Justus Leicht
24 May 2003
In an interview with the CNN channel Türk he lectured the Turkish government for bowing to public pressure (more than 90 percent of the population opposed the Iraq war) and refusing to allow the stationing of US troops on Turkish territory for the invasion of Iraq. Wolfowitz effectively demanded an apology, saying: “Lets have a Turkey that steps up and says we made a mistake. We should have known how bad things were in Iraq but we know now. Let’s figure out how we can be as helpful as possible to the Americans.”
Even more revealing was his criticism of the Turkish military, which he accused of holding back from forcing the elected government into line: “I think for whatever reason they did not play the strong leadership role on that issue that we would have expected.”
Wolfowitz responded: “I think it’s perfectly appropriate, especially in your system, for the military to say it was in Turkey’s interest to support the United States in that effort.(…) My impression is they didn’t say it with the kind of strength that would have made a difference.”
Michael Rubin was another one. I couldn’t believe that Brian Williams interviewed him last night!
Why Are Neocons Attacking Turkey?
To boost support for an attack on Iran, U.S. neoconservatives want Turkey on their side. But that means regime change in Ankara.
..http://fpif.org/why_are_neocons_attacking_turkey/
Let me add another good interview with Sibel Edmonds. She, nor I are supporters of Erdogan or what he has been doing but a coup we do not support.
Sibel Edmonds Explains the CIA’s “Reverse Engineering” of Erdogan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAiAFqXPwZ8&sns=fb
Willy B,
A Turkish religious movement has secretly funded as many as 200 trips to Turkey for members of Congress and staff since 2008, apparently repeatedly violating House rules and possibly federal law, a USA TODAY investigation has found.
The group — a worldwide moderate Islamic movement led by a religious scholar named Fethullah Gülen — has been accused by the Turkish government of attempting a coup in that country. Turkish leaders have asked the United States to extradite Gülen from the remote compound in rural Pennsylvania where he has lived for 20 years.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/10/29/turkish-faith-movement-secretly-funded-200-trips-lawmakers-and-staff/74535104/
oofda,
He was hilarious last night when he was talking about all the ways that this hasfailed. He brought up the attempted coup in Panama. The plotter gave Noreiga his gun and Noreiga promptly shot him.
elaine,
Very real. Perhaps some thought it was a drill and found out to their dismay that they were ordered into treason. I’ve seen the dead and the bloody young soldiers. I hope Erdogan has mercy on them.
. . . Talking of Brexit blowback, it didn’t take them long to dump on Erdogan for starting to talk to Vlad. A major terror attack and an attempt coup since his grovelling letter to Moscow.
Ergo — could be westerners
Colonel,
https://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/World/2016/Jul-16/362446-us-would-consider-extradition-request-for-exiled-cleric.ashx
Give us Gulen!
Cee
Treason is a big word. How do you define treason? Tell me how you do that if you think you are acting to save secular Turkey from medieval Islamism? you have seen bodies and bloody young soldiers? Where did you see that? pl
The Virginian,
Yes. If the situation is a real, sloppy coup attempt, or a disinformation operation using the technique of “perception management” (a technique used here in the U.S.), Erdogan will push for more political authority.
The Associated Press says that the Turkey state-run “news” agency stated that 2,745 judges were dismissed across that country. Of course, one does not know whether this or other reports can be believed.
What we do know is false is secretary of state John Kerry saying (via the Assoc. Press) on Saturday (today) that: “the U.S. opposed any attempt to overthrow a democratically elected leader. He says change must come through a constitutional process”. Unless you are talking about Ukraine, Honduras, Venezuela, etc. Kerry tried to cover himself with the weasel words, “democratically elected” leader. Sorry, John. No dice.
Cee,
“a worldwide moderate Islamic movement led by a religious scholar named Fethullah Gülen”
Since you did not use quotation marks I conclude this is your opinion. How on Earth did you conclude that this is a world wide and moderate movement?
Erdogan has been getting rid of secularists in the military for some time, so as to weaken the military’s watchdog role in keeping the country secular. The last of them will go up against the wall now.
Turkey under Erdogan has been going down the road to becoming another Islamist country, a theocracy and failed state.
This coup and its failure is probably the death knell for Turkey, as it had been, and the beginning of the deluge.
US suspends strikes against IS from Incirlik base.
https://twitter.com/garretpustay/status/754331922113896448
If you strike the *king, you have to kill the king. Like PL I also had the thought that this could be a provocation designed to strengthen Erdogan’s hand, and to justify a purge, a kind of Turkish “Night of the Long Knives,” as happened in Germany in 1934 during the Rohm “putsch.” I recall Frank Gaffney saying in 1991 that Gorbachev or the KGB could have staged or provoked the August Coup to shore up the ruling clique. That doesn’t seem to have happened then, but it could have happened here. That (a) the coup began and continued as something “real,” and (b) at the same time was incited, provoked, and exploited by Erdogan, are not necessarily mutually exclusive propositions. Sadly I think of the DB Achilles debacle in Iraq, the failed coup against Saddam, almost exactly 20 years ago.
Thank you.
He excerpted the first two paragraphs of the USA Today article at the link, which you would know if you had read it. One should be careful about drawing conclusions too quickly.
Der Spiegel mentions that the source for the story is state news agency “Anadolu”
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/tuerkei-nach-putsch-versuch-setzt-regierung-richter-ab-a-1103338.html
robt,
Perception management? Like defining hate speech then rounding up political opponents like the Germans are doing right now.
http://www.thelocal.de/20160713/german-police-launch-first-nationwide-hate-speech-raids
Willy B,
And “…” are indicators of quoting an article. This is an old, old habit of Cee’s.
Colonel Lang,
This has all the earmarks of a pre-emptive false flag. The level of ineptitude shown here is peculiar. There are too many unknowns at this point.
Ishmael Zechariah
Further to that thought, if this was a genuine attempt at getting rid of Erdogan, I would not be surprised if he’d had advanced warning by loyalists within the Army, and being tipped-off, made his plans accordingly.
Also, I can’t be the only one to have noticed that there’s a whiff of the Brownshirts / Basij to certain parts of the AKP…
This article seems to say hints were available:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/the-coup-in-turkey-even-if-it-fails-could-lead-to-uncertainty-in-anti-isis-fight/2016/07/15/d5d181b4-4ae0-11e6-acbc-4d4870a079da_story.html?tid=a_inl
To everyone at SST.
Thank you very much for all the and thought-provoking discussion on these pages. I honestly cannot find a better and more thoughtful overview of current affairs than SST.
But I am beginning to despair ever understanding what the fuck in going on in the area east of Italy and west of Bikaner. There are so many actors, so many different motivations, so many belief systems, so much money.
It just seems that whatever energy was there to barely hold together a tottering structure is now gone and the arena is disappearing into an entropic sludge.
I will most certainly keep trying, and if I come up with anything that makes sense, Y’all will be the first to know
Col. Lang,
There is a process and a coup is never acceptable. That is treason.
But, this may have been a fraud.
As of right now, Erdogan has removed the two last hurdles on his way to absolute, supreme power: holdouts in Turkey’s judicial branch and in the army.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-16/erdogans-counter-coup-begins-turkey-purges-2745-judges-prosecutors-arrests-hundreds
Cee
You don’t usually sound so naïve. Hitler was constitutionally elected. How do you feel about the 20th of July 1944 German Army attempt to overthrow him? pl
@ Willy
This may come in handy:
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/04/turkey-fethullah-gulen-cleric-opposition-erdogan-akp.html
plus include the following to understand why the two so-called friends split 🙂
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/kurdish-and-german-angles-of-erdogan-gulen-rift.aspx?pageID=449&nID=61889&NewsCatID=409
Think of them as different alien planets:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_to_Be_a_God_(2013_film)
Colonel, Please excuse me for responding when you were addressing Cee;
I was moved by the film “Valkyrie” starring Tom Cruz about the attempted
assassination of Hitler. My feeling after watching the film was too bad
they didn’t try it sooner & how tragic their brave attempt failed.
Elaine
They did try it earlier, several times, and failed. pl
Col. I’m sure you’re correct. I’ll do a bit of research & try to learn more.
I’m aware I’m a real light weight occupying the low end of the learning curve on this committee. It’s not a proud position to occupy. Thanks for
allowing me to participate.
Colonel, 13 known attempts. The one with Johann George Elser may have
been in the “Valkyrie” film in the beginning & I forgot about it.
Try to understand our history in this context. Can you? It’s not perception management, but has been growing for quite a while now. In a diffuse way mixing old and new.
elaine, You can read the fascinating story of many of the plans for attempts on Hitler’s life that didn’t come close to fruition, and a few that did, in Mark Riebling’s book <> In one instance the plotters were able to smuggle a time bomb aboard the plane that was taking Hitler back to Berlin from the eastern front but the timing mechanism malfunctioned and it didn’t go off. Conspirators at the German end of the flight had to scramble to remove it from the plane before it was discovered by the Gestapo. Most of the other attempts fizzled when Hitler’s plans changed or when people the plotters thought they had committed to doing something either chickened out or frustrated by circumstances beyond their control.
The conspirators were mostly Catholic lay people, but not entirely. A number of Catholic clerics at various levels of the hierarchy were involved as well as the Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer and other Protestants. And, of course, Count Stauffenberg. The key figure in the plots described was a Munich lawyer who was a triple agent. (Unfortunately his name eludes me at the moment and since I read a library copy I don’t have the book at hand.) Pope Pius XII was aware that a conspiracy was being coordinated by his minions, but according to the author to preserve ‘plausible deniability’ he was not informed of the specifics of the individual plots. However he must have known in his heart of hearts that there was indeed gambling at Rick’s place in Casablanca, so to speak. The pope took a lot of post-war heat about his failure to speak strongly against the Nazi regime. Riebling’s book makes a compelling case that the silence was necessary in order not to give the Gestapo reason to investigate the German Church even more thoroughly than they already were and this increase the likelihood of exposing the network. It finally came to light in the wake of the July 20, 1944, event. The lawyer was finally executed a few days before the end of the war, about the same time as Bonhoeffer was.
http://amzn.to/29ZJhM5
A detailed account of all the plots against Hitler is in the book by Joachim Fest. First published in Germany in 1994, it was later published in North America as “Plotting Hitler’s Death”.
Cee,
To quote or own President “Elections have consequences”. Erdogan took that vote as one man, one vote, one time: He won. “Erdogan has removed the … last hurdles on his way to absolute, supreme power”
“… a coup is never acceptable.” you are wrong.
LeaNder,
“but has been growing for quite a while now” Yes the perception management has been going on a long, long time. You need the good immigrants/refugees. It’s not like you will raise wages for that work “no one wants to do”. Sound familiar?
Elaine, once the first set of conflicting reports came out in the news, the Valkyrie movie started replaying in my head. And, I have been “there” during a preemptive coup shake up, but nothing like this.
I may occasionally consider what you call anti-perception-management “spiritual arson” or incitement. It’s a matter of perspectives.
I’ve been in the larger “perception management industry”. To be quite honest, I occasionally preferred to do the type of jobs “no one wants to do” for my own inner well-being.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management#Business