Israel is testing Russia …


"If reports are confirmed, this will be another sign of the growing Israeli military activity over the ongoing Syrian war caused by a series of success of the Syrian-Iranian-Russian alliance against ISIS across the country.

On September 7, the Israeli Air Force carried out a missile strike on a Syrian military facility near Masyaf town located west of Hama city in central Syria. The strike allegedly hit a weapon depot at the medium-range ballistic missiles plant located in the area. Some pro-Israeli sources speculated that a chemical weapons plant became a target of the strike.

At the same day, Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman said that Israel is ready to do everything to prevent a Shi’ite corridor from Tehran to Damascus and to defend own interests in the region.

Israel increased its military and media activity over the Syrian war after Tel Aviv had failed to get a Russian support in an attempt to influence the US-Russian negotiations aimed at reaching a final settlement agreement over the conflict in Syria.

The Israeli media even accused Russia of providing a diplomatic cover for Hezbollah in the United Nations Security Council.

Tel Aviv is deeply concerned over the collapse of ISIS in Syria and Iraq and fears that the Syrian crisis could be solved in a way ignoring a major part of Tel Aviv’s “interests” in the region."  SF


Israel's self image is being severely stressed by the survival of the Syrian Government and the failure of Israel's attempt to instigate rule in Syria of manageable and fragmented jihadi and semi-secular groups. 

A concomitant feature of this Syrian Government survival is introduction of Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps troops from the Al-Quds force and their allies in Lebanese Hizbullah.  These forces have played a significsant role in preserving the Syrian Government.  They now are taking their places as a key element in containing Israel at the line of the Golan Heights.

The Israelis do not like that.  Their current "life illusion' centers on Iran and its little friends as avatars of the larger world gentile menace.  The specter of a "Shiite land corridor to the Mediterranean " is dominant among people like avigdor Liberman.    "We will do what we must!" is the threat.

Russia stands in the way of this fantasy of regional domination by what is really a very small state heavily armed and heavily funded by an ignorant and distant giant.


For the Likudnik world view to prevail Russia must be taught a lesson.  The Israeli air attack on Masyaf, carried out from the neutral sanctuary of Lebanese air space and this move forward of Israeli ground forces farther into Syrian territory are opening gambits to see of the Russians can be bullied into accepting Israeli 'moral" dominance in the Middle East.  pl

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125 Responses to Israel is testing Russia …

  1. Anna says:

    “Israel may very well conclude that the greater its military involvement in Syria, whether through sporadic attacks or by tightening its military ties to rebel groups, it more it will strengthen its position when the time comes to formulate a political settlement. But such a view can be a double-edged sword. It will grant Iran a wonderful excuse to increase its military presence in Syria; Russia may reduce or even eliminate its aerial coordination with Israel and declare Syrian airspace a no-fly zone; and Hezbollah could turn the Golan Heights into a legitimate front against Israel as part of its balance of deterrence with it.
    There is more: “We can assume Israel informed Washington before the attack and received the necessary nod of approval.”
    A question: Who had provided the nod of approval?

  2. turcopolier says:

    I think it unlikely that Israel asked for or received approval to attack Masyaf. To ask would be to undercut their self image as completely independent actors. pl

  3. JohnsonR says:

    Russia may reduce or even eliminate its aerial coordination with Israel and declare Syrian airspace a no-fly zone
    With modern standoff weapons and in the tight confines of Israel/Lebanon/western Syria, such a move would be of little relevance to the Israeli threat. The latest Israeli acts of aggression were reportedly launched from Lebanese airspace. Russia could instruct Israel that further attacks on Syrian territory would be treated as acts of war and responded to with force, but it has understandably shown no inclination to do so or to incur the resulting risks and costs so far.
    Could Hezbollah manage to get Lebanese airspace closed to Israeli military fights? That would require some significant external support. Hard to conceive at the moment, but perhaps if the political and diplomatic environment continues to change as it has been lately then who knows?

  4. ex-PFC Chuck says:

    I would expect the R+6 to keep their powder dry for a while until the Israelis show a bit more of their hand, and likely get a bit overextended due to overconfidence, and then respond in some asymetric way that is deeply disturbing to the perpetrators. The response will likely feature either the Syrian government and/or Hisbullah out front but will have Russian fingerprints all over it if you look behind the curtain.

  5. Jack says:

    I wonder what provocation by the Likudniks will be one too far. And when they get surprised by retaliation what the “big and distant giant” will do as the hysteria gets whipped up.

  6. Alaric says:

    Israel is hoping for a reaction so that Trump will act on Bibi’s paranoia. Israel’s provocations will be dealt with but probably not soon and probably in a matter that Israel does not expect. Bibi might think that attacking Syria when she is weak is fun but those attacks and Israel’s support for Jihadists near golan in particular could be used as an excuse by Syria to retake Golan at a later point in time.

  7. eakens says:

    They have such cordial relations with the rebels….,7340,L-5013816,00.html

  8. robt willmann says:

    When reading the main post above, I remembered that Col. Lang had written about the fact that a peace treaty and arrangement with Syria had almost happened, and involved a former Israeli general named Uri Sagi who, after retiring from the military, was involved in the negotiations for an agreement. Apparently Hafez al-Assad was still the president of Syria when the negotiations took place. The earlier posting is here, from 2006, 11 years ago. Time does go by quickly–
    Hafez al-Assad knew that the Saudi Arabian ruling family wanted to insert Sunni Islam, through a politician, as the governing basis for Syria. It appears that Saudi Arabia is still trying to do the same thing.

  9. Jack says:

    A good post in ZeroHedge on the Israeli attacks on Syria.
    Israeli officials have gone so far as to declare their preference for Islamic State terrorists on their border rather than allies of Iran. But as we’ve repeatedly pointed out, Israel is acting from a position of weakness and desperation. All that Netanyahu can hope for now is that an Israeli provocation leads to a direct Syrian military response, but it appears that Assad is not taking the bait.

  10. Bill H says:

    Please note that we are back to the hyperbole about Syrian possession and use of chemical weapons, along with repeating accusations of prior use.

  11. sid_finster says:

    Forgive me if I overstate the obvious, but my guess is that Israel is doing everything it can to provoke a Russian response in hopes that it can run to its neocon friends in the US and scream for protection.

  12. MasterSlacker says:

    When 16+% of your population are immigrant Russians I don’t think a test of their native resolve is particularly viable option. Those folks left Russia for a reason. If the “native” Israelis wanted to know what the Russian response will be they should just ask. They won’t because that would be divisive, but they should. This looks to be more of a feint for the Iranians benefit.

  13. Ex 11B says:

    ” To ask would be to undercut their self image as completely independent actors.”
    And taking all that money from us and then turning around and buying our cheap whore politicians is just a sign of their cleverness and just confirms their independent status.(snark alert)
    Israel, like a spoiled brat needs its allowance cut off and its constant disregarding the rules of decent society not covered up anymore. Lets see how special and chosen you are now! Expire the anti-Semite card. Revoke the Holocaust exemption. At this point the Zionist have proven that with the shoe on the other foot they haven’t learned a damn thing. The environment created in the Gaza ghetto rival anything done in the 40s.
    Outlaw APIAC. Send the foreign nationals in that organization back to where they came from. Arrest, try and imprison the American citizens employed in that organization on whatever laws apply.
    All dual passport holders automatically lose their American citizenship and are deported, their property confiscated.
    This is the only way to eliminate the infestation. If Israel is so damn special then their specialness can damn well save them. Or they could lose the Hubris? Learn how to live with people instead of looking at every one else as a way to serve their Messianic interest?
    If they weren’t really all that and a box of crackers then why do we let them influence policy to the detriment of our own people? Maybe that time is coming to an end. Maybe Russia gets to slap them around a little after big Unky Sam kicked them out of the pool house. The bean counters are probably looking at all that cash we hand out with a view towards the Houston we have a problem situation. Throw in that other space program icon Florida and I think Bibi and friends might not be getting their coke money this month. Insult upon injury for someone or some organization that has been so enabled.

  14. Anna says:

    “The Israeli air attack on Masyaf, carried out from the neutral sanctuary of Lebanese air space”
    Was this technically an air attack from the Lebanese territory?

  15. turcopolier says:

    The US has been attacking IS all along. All those air strikes atMosul and Raqqa ere against IS and the air ops people document their many daily airstrikes against IS. They are somewhat disturbed that RuAF is not crowding their operational territory in the east of Syria. pl

  16. Imagine says:

    AIPAC pays roughly $75M to buy 99% of Congress. Only ~$200K/@ on average. If you don’t dance they pay your competitor. Congress gave more standing ovations to Bibi than Obama (2011). Congress will not bite hand that feeds it.

  17. Seward says:

    In a perhaps related item in today’s WaPo, David Ignatius, in a generally favorable Op Ed about Sec. State Tillerson, remarks:
    “In Syria, Tillerdon has warned Putin about the danger to Russian interests of increasing Iranian power power there, especially as Bashar al-Assad’s regime regains control of Deir al-Zoar in Eastern Syria. To control the Iranians, Tillerson supports a quick move by the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces to capture the lower Euphrates valley.”
    Although Ignatius’ statement doesn’t quite parse, the Russians not particularly worried about increasing Iranian power in Syria, he implies the U.S. is contemplating “a quick move by the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces to capture the lower Euphrates valley.” Ignatius has very close ties to the deep state, especially CIA. A recently deceased close friend (Don Praisner), a mid-level DI analyst when I was a contractor there, said Ignatius’ fiction often reads like that of someone with deep insider knowledge of “the Agency” (as they call themselves). Consequently, such a “quick move” may be in the works.

  18. ISL says:

    Dear Colonel,
    At some point, the bear will have to respond to the pokes if it wants to prevent further, harder pokes.
    Perhaps a small undercover team with say two Buks in Hezbollah territory. Plausible deniability, and I would think a likely sufficient deterrent given current Israeli society (very risk averse for its soldiers).
    Not sure of the altitude Israeli jets tend to fly in Lebanon for firing into Syria, but providing even a few (dozen) Verba MANPADs to Hezbollah would shift the strategic balance dramatically. Lebanon is only 20 miles wide, so four teams could cover the Southern border, eight could provide depth (range is ~ 5 miles).

  19. SmoothieX12 says:

    Those folks left Russia for a reason
    Most of them retaining Russia’s citizenship and now many (in fact, very many) returning back to Russia.

  20. Red Cloud says:

    Surely everyone remembers how the US stood by and watched the ISIS oil trucks make trips to Turkey and back, over and over again. Only after Russia exposed them by destroying the convoys did the US do something, obviously just to save face or they would have just bombed the convoys from the beginning. It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to make the case that the US was “bombing ISIS from the beginning”.

  21. turcopolier says:

    From long acquaintance with him IMO Ignatius is a mouthpiece for both CIA and the Israelis. I do not think that this is more than a coincidence. CIA PR has long had him on their books and he has a personal attachment to Israel. The “democratic resistance” would get eaten alive by the SAA if they tried to do that. pl

  22. turcopolier says:

    Red Cloud
    Did you not read the part about Obama personally ordering that the Syrian and Iraqi oil not be bombed from concern for re-construction of the two countries? Did you also miss the part in which We bombed the p–s out of IS in Mosul and Raqaa? I see, you wish to live in your fantasy. As for ongoing bombing i have actual knowledge of the bombing records. you do not. pl

  23. confusedponderer says:

    well, I don’t know whether it ‘*technically* was an attack from Lebanese territory’. In fact it is much simpler than that.
    Just have a coffee and think slowly about it.
    Far more relative than what it was ‘technically’, or wasn’t ‘technically’, is that if the Izzies shot at Syria from Lebanon airspace they …
    (a) comitted acts of war and in doing so …
    (b) simply violated the sovereignty of two neighbouring countries (which doesn’t mean much to Israel apparently) – Lebanon and Syria – in a single act of violence.
    A hunch tells me that before the Israelis attack Syria they likely rather bomb Lebanon once again (as in: ‘easier target’), ‘to go after Hezbollah’ and, of course, ‘to go after Iran’ and the like.
    That said, the ‘bomb Hezbollah in Lebanon’ stunt didn’t work well in 2006, when Israel got their ass handed by their opponent. Now, one could learn from that not to try something like that again, well, or, of course, one could choose to not learn anything from it at all.
    Where one then goes would depend on preference and choice. So the Israelis may just choose to use the big stick rather than to think, be modest and realistic in goals and to negotiate.
    Sadly, folks who think they determine or proclaim what the REAL reality is, or what game is being played, and how it is being played don’t like such nasty ‘compromises’. So, perhaps Bibi thinks such an act ‘feels good’ today and, as a bonus, it may even distract from failing in Syria.
    Iirc some openly demeted Bibi dude recently said that Israel would rather have ISIS in Syria than Assad. Ah yes. How brilliant! What grand wisdom!! Probably this brilliant grand strategist is usually held hidden in a cave or a rubber room.
    That written, he point is that there is a chance that the Israelis may try to be stupid and to act stupid – in order to “win win” with it.
    Of course, very likely such an approach wouldn’t fix anything but at least, if destructively, it may kick the ball down the road. Also, on the side, such a ‘warlet’ may even distract from that nasty recent talk in Israel about corruption and Bibi and Bibis wife.

  24. turcopolier says:

    CP and Anna
    Sovereign airspace is sovereign territory. My guess is that the Russian/Israeili understanding did not include Lebanon. The Russians may want to fix that. pl

  25. turcopolier says:

    You are living in an anti-American fantasy. You have answered none of my points. pl

  26. Philippe says:

    “and then respond in some asymetric way”
    Totally agree, ex-PFC Chuck. That’s Vlad method since the beginning of Russia’s involvement. Contrary to US with his “obligatory Grand Standing” responses and postures. It’s not – It has never been – a question of proud ness mal placée, just efficiency. That’s the only real metric.

  27. Ex 11B says:

    Thus the moniker I assigned them…cheap whores. At least sell us out for more than that. Its pathetic

  28. Philippe says:

    Quotes : “Send the foreign nationals (…) back to where they came from.”
    “lose their American citizenship and are deported, their property confiscated.”
    “only way to eliminate the infestation.”
    Hmmm, very disturbing remembrance here, sir, to say the least. Have you lost any memory of the last century ? That’s the kind of phraseology which has preceded one of the worst time of our western culture.
    And, in case of, no, I have no sympathy for the Zionist ideology, quite the contrary. But I’m French, and I know first hand the dark follies bred by this social disease : antisemitism.

  29. BrotherJoe says:

    Did the russian attacks on the oil convoys damage the oil infrastructure or hinder reconstruction?

  30. turcopolier says:

    Brother Joe
    Obama was the sentimental fathead that he often is. No, Russian bombing did not damage the oil facilities. that is what the US command told Obama but he would not listen. POTUS has absolute command. pl

  31. Philippe says:

    Meta-comment – first part to be deleted.
    Really sorry, Colonel, I have mistyped the HTML end mark for “italics”.
    here it is :

  32. turcopolier says:

    I see that you are on “” Is that expensive? you say these “quotes” ar equotes. If they are you must give us citations. If they are your inventions or a reference to historical statements say so. Don’t imply that these are quotations from real Americans if they are not. pl

  33. Klaus Weiß says:

    Unfortunately, Germany, the most influential and strongest European country is excluded from this discussion for historical reasons. Russia, or: the Soviet Union, has been the strongest supporter of Israel over the centuries. Without the USSR there wouldn’t be a Jewish state in the Middle East. The incremental genocide of the Palestinian people has been ignored by every American administration since Reagan (remember him urging Begin to stop the holocaust in Beirut in 1982). Israel will get away with it.

  34. DH says:

    I agree with Chuck, too. Give them enough rope to hang themselves. But what would the asymmetric response be? I guess taking back the Golan would be ‘too soon.’

  35. jdledell says:

    I can assure all of you that Israel would definitely rather have ISIS on their Golan Heights border than Hezballah. While my sources in Israel are unable to determine if this is Israel’s official strategic position, the talk in the IDF definitely prefers ISIS. The IDF is very concerned about Hezballah’s military capabilities – they fight like an organized military unit with effective communications and intelligence gathering capabilities. This is much more effective than a bunch of ISIS crazies running around shooting their guns but much less organized than Hezballah. The IDF will probably never forget their experience invading Lebanon.

  36. LG says:

    sir, he quoted parts of ex 11b’s comments to this post (comment #14)

  37. Huckleberry says:

    However controversial, I have learned that it all makes more sense if you stop saying Israelis and start saying “Jews.”
    Then, if you simply insert “goyim” for every other group of people the Jews deal with, the clarity becomes terrifying.
    Dancing around this for reasons of political correctness is suicidal.

  38. Anna says:

    “…that kinda explains why the usa for the longest time was always turning a blind eye to isis presence in syria and iraq – looking after israel was at the top of their agenda…”
    You mean, Israel has been looking after Israel from the ziocon-occupied USA?

  39. Anna says:

    “…Israel is doing everything it can to provoke a Russian response…”
    Actually, Israel has been behaving in the most sheepish (and dishonorable) manner re Russian Federation. Israel’s provocations have been enormously harmful for Syria, but Israel is powerless to provoke Russia to a point of the US initiation of the WWIII. Such engagement would be a quick end of Israel, forever.

  40. Lemur says:

    In New Zealand we often have sheep dog trials at our rural events. The objective is to herd sheep through various obstacles in the least amount of time. A good dog learns the optimal strategy is to control the general direction of the sheep. It’s almost impossible to directly control every movement of such volatile animals. So the dog follows a few meters behind, running two and fro in an arc of about 60 degrees, funneling the sheep toward a fixed point.
    Russia is pursuing a similar strategy. In conjunction with Iran and Turkey, they’re gradually building a regional matrix of power that simply circumscribes the field of choice available to Israeli leaders. Israel can still run hither and thither between a shrinking set of responses, but none of these matter if they’re being systematically excluded from the high ground of the regional security complex.

  41. Anna says:

    The previous suggestion that Syrians/Russians should provide Lebanese with the effective defensive weaponry (for example, manpads) seems a right way to show Israelis their proper place. Enough already. Would not it be great if the US re-channels the “Israeli” $$billions towards helping the US citizens in Texas, Luisiana, Florida, Georgia, and South Carolina?

  42. Anna says:

    Please, do not conflate anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. The ziocons have inflicted an enormous harm through their treachery and disloyalty. Perhaps you are not aware of their role in the promoting the crimes against humanity in the name of Greater Israel. Would you agree that the long prison terms for the warmongering ziocons would be better solution than sending them to live in their pet project or you believe that any investigation of ziocons’ crimes would be antisemitic?

  43. Lemur says:

    I thought he sounded quite reasonable.
    The Holocaust doesn’t exempt the Jews from us parsing their behavour, and responding appropriately (this being the key word) to it when it runs contrary to our interests. There is no apriori reason why a justified counter-semitic position cannot be taken. If John Doe is falsely accused of a crime, or disproportionately punished for one; it does not now follow John can never commit a crime or be punished for doing so. You’re kidding yourself if you think opposing Zionism, a non-trivial strand of Jewish culture, is not a form of anti-antisemitism.
    I also resent the implication because one expression of Western civilization at a specific point in time did something wrong, all of Western civilization is suspect and must be put on probation. Apparently the second we have a self-affirmative about ourselves we must instantly wonder: would a Jew feel conformable about my inner disposition?
    We’re stepping over this moral dreck. We won’t survive if our organizing motif is a negative.

  44. Bandolero says:

    Is Israel testing Russia – or is it more like Israel is testing the US?
    Sure, Israel is testing Russia, but from what I read from a guy called Elliott Abrams over there at the CFR blog, it looks to me even more like Israel is testing the US. Quote begin:
    “Israel’s Bombing of a Weapons Factory in Syria: What Comes Next?
    … Israel has given the United States fair warning that there are limits to what Israel will tolerate in Iranian conduct and the Iranian presence in Syria. … Israel is also acting in part because the United States does not seem willing to restrain Iran in any serious way in Syria. We are doing less, not more, while the Assad regime’s forces and Iran’s gain ground. … What would be useful at this point, it seems to me, is a statement by the United States that we approve of the action Israel took, and that in the event of a conflict Israel would have our support in defending itself—for example by allowing the Israelis to have access to the stocks of weapons that we store in Israel. This is the billion-dollar stockpile of ammunition, vehicles, and missiles in the “War Reserve Stockpile Ammunition-Israel.” Such a statement might, like the Israeli bombing of the weapons factory in Syria, help persuade Iran and Syria to observe the limits Israel is imposing, and might help avoid a wider conflict.
    Quote end. Source:

  45. Yeah, Right says:

    An appropriate response from Russia would be one that doesn’t escalate the situation but puts a stop to the IAF making user of Lebanese airspace.
    Transferring AA missiles to Hezbollah wouldn’t do it: that would be an intolerable escalation in Netanyahu’s eyes, one that runs the risk of causing the Israelis to launch a war on Lebanon under some thinly-veiled pretext.
    But how about Putin wangling an “invitation” from the Lebanese govt to mount standing patrols of SU-27 fighters over Lebanon?
    From the perspective of int’l law that would be perfectly legal, and Israel would have no legitimate reason to challenge those patrols while on the other hand those Russian jets would have a legitimate reason to challenge any Israeli jet that enters Lebanese airspace.
    No idea if the Lebanese govt would be open to issuing such a request, but it would certainly cause consternation amongst the Israelis and do so in such a way that limits their ability to run to Washington crying foul.
    After all, the correct response to an airspace that is patrolled by Russian fighter jets is…. not to fly your own aircraft into that same airspace.
    Anything else is *you* provoking *them*, not vice versa.

  46. turcopolier says:

    Whoever turned on the italics, turn them off! pl

  47. Willybilly says:

    When over Lebanon’s territory, Israeli jets fly very high, well above manmads reach… When they attack Syrian territory, it always happens at night, very low altitude and lightning fast, over and out in a flash…. Hizbullah has manmads, SAM8s, and other systems in place…., but the decision to show its hand has not been necessary for now…., but they do not have BUKS for sure…..

  48. Bandolero says:

    What I find quite interesting is the question whether Putin may link his reaction in the UNO to the recent NK nuclear test to the US reaction to this Israeli attack on the Syrian military facility. I looked to find a discussion of that possible Russian option somewhere, especially in Israeli and US media, but I failed.
    Any suggestions?

  49. Stumpy says:

    attempt to clear italic

  50. Stumpy says:

    attempt to clear italic

  51. confusedponderer says:

    Well, this is the end of the post where italics started and, hopefully, this is where they end. So, magical magic … work on it … . Test.

  52. Bandolero says:

    I think it must be quite frustrating to the Lebanese Army that Hesbollah has and can do so many the Lebanese Army has not and cannot. The Jordanian news agency Petra just reported that Lebanon is to “protest to UN Israel’s breach of its airspace.” Quote begin:
    “This came during a meeting of the supreme defence council headed by President Michael Aoun and attended by Prime Minister Saad Hariri.”
    Quote end. Source:
    Wikipedia says Saad Hariri is a dual Saudi-Lebanese citizen.
    I think about what happens if the UN security council doesn’t take measures to curb Israels breaches of Lebanese air space. If that happens to be the case may it be possible that the Lebanese Armed Forces will go onto the market and look for some air defense system? I think so. And if that happens I think to get that Russia has some quite capable air defense systems on offer. I think that would be a much better solution than having Hezbollah organize the Lebanese air defence. What do you think about this?

  53. Dubhaltach says:

    attempting to fix your malformed html.

  54. Adrestia says:

    Just to end the italics.

  55. Philippe says:

    Colonel, those quotes came from this very page, in the message #14 with poster name Ex 11B, and my message was a response to Ex 11B.
    Concerning, is a free service provided by French postal.

  56. LeaNder says:

    this is a good argument, jdledell. But how could they manage that it doesn’t look like a tunnel vision for the rest of the world?
    To us ISIS looked/looks pretty organized too. … Shouldn’t one expect it to be, after all a high percentage of its early members are assumed to come from the former security apparatus in Iraq?
    What would be Israel’s counterargument, if we suspect: The main difference may well be the different “state sponsors” behind it?

  57. Huckleberry,
    I don’t think this is right – “However controversial, I have learned that it all makes more sense if you stop saying Israelis and start saying “Jews.”
    That ignores the magnificent stand made by Finkelstein – and so many others. It ignores the recent plan by the ex-IDF senior officers to withdraw from the occupied territories. It ignores so much within Israel itself – for one instance out of many, look at the efforts made by some Israelis to get the Hezbollah graves treated with respect. To lump all these people in with such as Netanyahu is simply as inaccurate as if one were to call all Americans neo-cons.

  58. turcopolier says:

    I did not say that Russia would be bullied. I said that the Israelis are TRYING to bully Russia. Read carefully. pl

  59. blowback says:

    Why would the Russians want to crowd US operational territory in the east of Syria? I’m sure the Russians know the SDF/YPG would not allow any ISIS oil convoys to pass through the territory it controls into Turkey, so no need to bomb any oil convoys. Beyond the government-held zones near Qamishli and Al Hasakah, the R+6 currently have no interests there and the RuAF has enough work elsewhere to keep it busy. Or are the air ops people projecting their own thoughts onto the Russians?

  60. Ex 11B says:

    I will not bow to words police. I have revoked the antisemitism card for myself personally. You do realize playing the antisemitism card is nothing more than a ploy to end the conversation and I am sick of it. I question your motives.
    As I said, those measures are they only way and this was brought on by their behavior. I could give a shit about the accident their birth circumstances dealt them. I have no doubt there are people that are not Jewish that work for AIPAC and I want them prosecuted. This is an organization that has crossed the line and they deserve all the retribution they have coming.

  61. Nancy K says:

    Not all Jews identify with Israel, far from it especially with younger and non-practicing Jews.

  62. Red Cloud says:

    Obama can state that he didn’t bomb the ISIS oil convoys because he cared so much about those drivers and wouldn’t dare hurt one of them, or that he has such a deep heartfelt love for Iraq and Syria that he wouldn’t dare do anything that might hurt them (while he simultaneously bombs oil well heads in the east). Well no one seriously believes any of that nonsense.
    The US clearly stood by and watched ISIS transport its oil to Turkey. Also, bombing Raqqa and Mosul after the fact doesn’t change what already happened.

  63. turcopolier says:

    Red Cloud
    what is your point exactly? pl

  64. LeaNder says:

    Mr Weiß, on the surface it does not seem to make much sense to respond to this. How exactly is Germany excluded from the discussion? Collectively or individually? Random pick, it doesn’t seem to have begged to differ concerning the UN 2016 resolution 2334:
    Does what could possibly be on your mind?
    Without the USSR there wouldn’t be a Jewish state in the Middle East.
    what’s your historical evidence (dot-connection) for selectively charging Russia in this context?

  65. LeaNder says:

    Showing emotion? Well yes, maybe:
    “Does what could possibly be on your mind?”
    correction: Thus, what could possibly be on your mind.

  66. Red Cloud says:

    I believe the original point was that Israel has no problem admitting they prefer ISIS to Assad, and so it makes sense that the US would stand by and do nothing while ISIS grew to its full potential as a destructive force (the untouched oil convoys being evidence of that).

  67. Stumpy says:

    As you have stated,

    “Israeli ground forces farther into Syrian territory are opening gambits to see of the Russians can be bullied into accepting Israeli ‘moral” dominance in the Middle East.”

    Two aspects of recent US military intervention come to mind.
    One is the “lite” invasion policy, as in Desert Storm, whereby the force used was underwhelming. The task of cleanly assimilating the Iraqi territory failed, in my opinion, either a) because the USG was overly optimistic about the “relief from tyranny” that would have the Iraqis laying out rose petals for the benevolent Coalition. That, or b) some misguided policy of applying a conservative notion of cost-saving to the effort, although the services contractors made out pretty well.
    The other is that the protracted conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan have emboldened the once-separate forces in opposition to combine against the US, transitioning from assymetric attacks to the harmonized deployment of conventional troops across the ME, albeit by proxy.
    I can’t tell whether and to what extent the beltway hawks are navigating a path between US tolerance for casualties and achieving a specific result.
    Where Israel is headed, within this context, appears to depend on keeping big friends on a leash to support them, even if that means throwing symbolic punches at them as a threat to create a problem that inevitably leads to a big friend stepping in. The next question is how can Israel play all sides against the middle without burning bridges, with a more muscular Iranian constellation arrayed against them? This, only to find that the inevitable US contribution suffers from the “lite” syndrome, as in internal political friction, and fails to dissuade the Syrian and Lebanese neighbors from finally punching back?

  68. Les says:

    My recollection of the news was that those oil fields around Mosul were being pumped by both Kurds and Sunnis (IS).
    What is left of IS now? There were foreign intelligence officers and high-value foreign mercenaries who previously fought with the US in the former Soviet republics. There were the thousands of insurgents who were freed from the prison camps in Iraq. Then there are the many locals who joined IS because that was the only source of income after the revolts or because they were coerced. The bottom of the heap were the inconsequential foreign idiots and petty criminals who were enticed to go to Syria and Iraq. It would seem that was is left now are mostly locals.

  69. Mathiasalexander says:

    Why would zionism being a non-trivial strand of Jewish culture mean that anti-zionism was anti semitic? What about the other strands of Jewish culture? Wouldn’t you have to anti all jews to be anti semitic? Being anti-zionist is to opose something that someone is doing not to hate them for their ancestry, and the distinction still stands even if all jews are zionists. Anti zionists just want some Jews to stop giving the Palestinians a hard time while anti-semitics want to give all Jews a hard time. One could be used as a disguise for the other but that doesn’t stop them from being different things.
    All of Western Civilisation does not need to be put on probation but we won’t survive if our organizing motif is to make things up and then believe them ourselves.

  70. Willybilly says:

    For a starter, even if the Lebanese army had all the money it needs and went on the market for a decent air defense capability, it will not be allowed to pass… ZOG USA and the Izzies will move mountains and will not allow that to happen. Precedents exist since the late sixties, when the Lebanese army bought some crotale missiles from France, only to discover that they were flawed and unusable…. the Lebanese army has to account to every M16 bullet they use, or hellfire missiles which they received recently… to a US army attaché at the US embassy in Lebanon….. etc etc etc, they will not be allowed to have an airforce, or decent tanks, or decent antitank weapons, or or or….. etc. Hence, Hizbullah is more than a necessity for Lebanon’s defense, until hell freezes over. Recently, the actual Lebanese defense minister made a visit to Russia, and the President is about to visit Russia as well soon, we will see what comes out of all of those pilgrimages…. Iran has offered to arm the Lebanese army with anything that it says it needs…., ANYTHING… free of charge and with no conditions whatsoever attached…. the Lebanese government because of the US pressure…was never able to accept such largesse…. A visit by the President is scheduled to Iran also in the coming months…. might it change the equation???? Don’t know for sure. Wait and see…., but this president is getting quite old, will he break the mold????? As for Israeli breaches of Lebanon’s airspace, land incursions, sea incursions since decades, it’s a daily occurrence repeatedly…and Lebanon has lodged hundreds of complaints with the crooked UN to No avail…. we count thousands of air breaches every year… thousands of overflights of all sorts…. CHOCKING to see such cowardice by the “” international community””….. 90% of Lebanese fully understand the positions and valiant stand of Hizbullah… and the Lebanese army also fully understood long ago…

  71. ISL says:

    Anna – so which Lebanese? Remember the rule of unintended consequences.

  72. ISL says:

    Sorry Anna, since the system no longer displays comments near the point, my question is not clear.
    So which Lebanese would you provide weapons too? My recommendation is to maintain the missiles in Russian (covert) control.

  73. Babak Makkinejad says:

    Kurds are largely Sunni, excepting some Shia Kurds in Iran and then a few Yazidis and Ali-Allahis.
    I think you meant “Sunni Arabs”.
    Sunni Arabs around Kirkuk will not permit Kurds to steal their birth-right oil.
    Nor the Kurdish local government knows what to do with a million or so Arabs who now reside – as refugees – within the KRG.

  74. Babak Makkinejad says:

    You do not seem to grasp that the murder of Jews across multiple states in Europe during WWII was symptomatic of a malaise across all of Europe. This malaise still persists and once again we have Northern Europeans indulging in it – this time by trying to resurrect the tatters of Celtic Culture and posit is as the true antecedent European culture.
    I think, looking at the Western Civilization as an outsider – eine Auslander und MorgenLander – that it lacks a center which only a religion could provide.

  75. Philippe says:

    To all : my shame. Really sorry for this italic plague… First and last attempt to embellish text, for sure. And many thanks to Stumpy, confusedponderer, Dubhaltach, Adrestia, for correcting my error.

  76. turcopolier says:

    US is evacuating intel assets from DZ by helo. pl

  77. Christian Chuba says:

    I admire Russia’s restraint in not responding to Israeli air attacks but there is a downside. If they continue to not respond, they are perceived as the bully who backs down when confronted by the righteous. I’ve already heard this view expressed by Mark Levin on Neocon Talk Radio. This invites more aggression. I get that it would be inappropriate for Russia fire on an Israeli Jet over Lebanese air space but they could give the SAR S3/400’s as opposed to merely operate them to protect Russian assets.
    I thought that systems like the Pantsir were designed to hit missiles at short range and that Russia had some EW that could confuse targeting under certain circumstances. That would be a great, bloodless, demonstration that these attacks will be opposed. I don’t know if it is lack of will or ability that explains why these measures are not being taken.
    (P.S. hearing Mark Levin on this topic was excruciatingly painful, he got every single point of fact wrong. He even confused Hamas w/Hezbollah, details, details, maybe he is practicing to be our next UN Ambassador.)

  78. Bandolero says:

    “ZOG USA and the Izzies will move mountains and will not allow that to happen.”
    The Israelis surely wouldn’t be pleased if Lebanon would buy Russian air defense systems, but what could they do? Usually in such a situation they would go to the US and tell them to stop it. But now the Israelis indirectly attacked a major deal between the Russian and American president – and that via Lebanese airspace.
    If the Israelis would now go to Trump and tell him he should help them to stop Lebanon from procuring Russian AD, Trump may just decide to teach the Israelis a simple lesson: be nice to Trump, and Trump will be nice to you. And anyway, I think even if Trump would decide to stop Lebanon from buying Russian AD, it would be very hard for him to do it.

  79. Laguerre says:

    Those assets are from the Syrian sector of Deir ez-Zor, or from the Da’ish sector?

  80. Clonal Antibody says:

    Well there is this from Putin – Putin to Trump: If You Arm the Ukraine, I’ll Arm the Taliban
    Before actually arming the Taliban, AD’s to Lebanon, Hezb, and Iran, could well be a step that may be taken.

  81. mike says:

    CC –
    Was it restraint?
    The other explanation may be that with nap-of-the-earth flying and radar terrain masking they did not have a chance to respond.

  82. turcopolier says:

    From the area of close combat. you don’t get it do you? If you have developed HUMINT assets you don’t want to get them killed in an ongoing battle. pl

  83. turcopolier says:

    Methodolgy – presumably you are in communication with your asset or assets. the situation around DZ is still fluid. You set a rendezvous out in the brown somewhere. have them go there and a helo picks them up while air fire support stands by to shoot encroaching baddies. Have done this many times. Read my first book. “Intelligence: the Human Factor.” pl

  84. Anna says:

    I am not providing any weaponry to anyone. Mind your phrasing. Lebanese and Syrians have right to protect their air space from Israeli bandits (armed on the US dime, btw).

  85. Anna says:

    Syria’s victories have provoked the illegal searches and violations of the inviolability of private property of Russian diplomatic corps in the US: “Maria Zakharova: The US destroys diplomatic relations with Russia!” on Rutube, with the subtitles.
    The stupidity of the violation of the international law and the mindless disregard to the lives of Russian diplomats and their families (the families included babies) make a black eye to the US security services’ professionals and to the diplomatic corps of the US.
    Looks like ziocons have decided to show their displeasure with the Russians’ help to Syrians.

  86. jdledell says:

    The IDF is built to hit hard and fast against a conventional military enemy. In many respects it is still formulated to fight the 1967 and 1973 wars again. Hezballah gave the IDF a lesson new military tactics – small units with great internal communication between units(communication wires are buried all through southern Lebanon) and Tunnels everywhere. Hezballah has a fairly broad concept of Shia faith which allows many disparate units to work together. By contrast, the Sunni ISIS followers have a much narrower concept of the correct faith and this has meant many ex Syrian and Iraqi military men fail the faith test and are either ignored or killed. An ISIS unit of 50 men might break down into 3 or 4 different groups under pressure because of religious differences.
    As the IDF found in Gaza, the religious crazies usually come out in the open to fight and are easy pickings. You never see Hezballah until it’s too late. The IDF findings about their Southern Lebanon adventure estimates they lost 2 men for every one real Hezballah member.
    This is a very simplistic and broad brush effort to paint the differences between Hezballah and ISIS but the IDF has put together thousands of pages on the subject. As my Golani Brigade Captain has found out, it’s one thing to understand the issue intellectually, it’s quite another to get his troops, and the IDF collectively, to change their style of fighting.
    The Israeli culture cannot tolerate a long drawn out war – their economy would take a huge hit with all the reservists fighting. In addition, IDF casualties are simply not tolerated in the Israeli culture.

  87. Anna – You speak of the “ziocon-occupied USA.” In an earlier thread you say “For now, we live in the Jewish century.” I’m pretty sure that all you’re doing is objecting to the influence of AIPAC in American politics – I would, if I were an American, so I can agree with you there – but Jews, Zionist or non-Zionist, are accustomed to the expression of anti-semitic sentiments and will therefore find in such remarks anti-semitism rather than anti-Zionism.
    We live in many sorts of centuries. Some Progressives – I meet them often – believe we live in a racist century. Most people of faith, and plenty without, think we live in a century of moral decay. Deplorables suspect we’re on the road to serfdom – though I sometimes think Hayek was paving that road for us rather than blocking it. Perhaps the only common ground we all have is that as far as we in the West are concerned we live in a century of dysfunction; and having agreed to that we split off into our various groups and identify this or that strand contributing to the dysfunction.
    One of those strands, and one dysfunctional in the extreme, is ultra-Zionism, though I don’t believe in truth the case would be much improved even had Israel never existed. We’d have found some excuse for wrecking Arab countries without Israel. We often have. The crony nexus would still exist even did it not incorporate the interest group I sometimes see called the Israel Firsters. For all that it’s natural that Israel, a country founded on ethnic cleansing and seemingly intent on more, should embody for so many of us the antithesis of civilised values. And at this time, when it’s become clear that some Israelis would rather have seen further massacres and further horrors for the Syrian people than see a Syria secure for its people, that turns to the impatient revulsion we see on this thread.
    It’s a revulsion I share, but it’s a revulsion that must have a limit. Set aside the crazies, and most of the Jews who found themselves in Palestine, or in the later Israel, are there because of an accident of history. Grim though that history is we can no more hold them responsible for the deeds of their forbears than I am responsible for my forbears who put so many of them there. Nor can we hold them each and every one responsible for what their present government is doing, any more than I am responsible for mine.
    Nor should we forget that the attitudes that seem so abhorrent to us now were the norm only a little while ago. Not so long back the Ulster Protestants were applauded and told they were “holding the pass for Empire”. Now they are regarded as throwbacks. Like the white Rhodesians the Israelis are similarly stranded in history, in a colonial style settler model that no longer finds approval. And since, as in the former Rhodesia, the ethnic cleansing was only partial, and the neighbouring states are now less amenable to Western influence, the Israelis too are stranded in a settler model that no longer has a future.
    In an untenable position the instinct is to go for bust. To double down. For many Israelis, like the unfortunate Ukrainians who have seen their nationalist aspirations turned into something approaching a neo-nazi dystopia, the only way out is more of the same. As in the Ukraine the Israeli politicians in charge can see no alternative. So the Israel we knew in the past, the Israel of idealism and hope with the Palestinian issue somehow pushed into the background – that Israel of the “Golden Years” – has been transformed into the Israel we see now: grimly intent on survival no matter the cost to its neighbours, and with the treatment of the Palestinians as damaging to the fabric of Israeli society as it is destructive and humiliating for the Palestinians themselves.
    But many other Israelis do reject that instinct to go for bust. They recognise that the only future they have in the ME is a future in which an accommodation with the Palestinians and the neighbouring states must be reached.
    That’s going to be a very very different future but it can be the only future possible. Herzl’s vision was always going to be a mirage and Jabotinsky’s approach to achieving it was never going to work, but something’s going to have to work if it’s not all to end in further horrors. As I have been permitted to say before on the Colonel’s site, full justice for the Palestinians could only be achieved by a reverse ethnic cleansing of the Israelis themselves and none on this site, I believe, would wish to see that. Full remedy for the past is never possible. The past is the past and all that can be done is to patch up the present.
    Those many Israelis who recognise that, and those of their fellow Jews worldwide who also recognise that, are scarcely likely to be encouraged to go for peace by such views as are set out in places on this thread. This is not a Jewish century and there is no all-powerful international Jewry running our affairs. Merely the usual bunch of crooks and cronies making out on the Zionist fantasy because it’s all they know to do, and controlling a country of several million people who, whether they know it or not and whether they are responsible for it or not, now find themselves out on a very precarious limb.

  88. Anna says:

    First, Taliban was not mentioned even once in this clip. Second, there was not a word about Russia wanting to provide weaponry to any of the groups that you have listed. And thirdly, you are promoting Atlantic magazine’ propaganda (perhaps, inadvertently): “The US has been accusing Russia of arming the Taliban all year. The neocon mouthpiece, The Atlantic magazine, just ran a big article about it. Russia insists that this is ridiculous, because they would be hurting themselves.
    In fact, the clip (it has subtitles) is about the US decision to send weaponry to Kiev (are you aware about neo-Nazi elements in the Kiev’ government?), which would lead to more bloodshed and more victims among civilian populations of the East Ukraine’s “republics” and which could result in sending the weaponry by the “republics” to certain sensitive areas (no names of the areas).
    In short, you have brought the “neocon mouthpiece” propaganda on this forum.

  89. Mark Chapman says:

    The USA invited itself into Syria on the premise of ‘fighting ISIS’, and over the course of 18 months ISIS steadily advanced and made territorial gains until it was in the suburbs of Damascus itself. Russia arrived on the scene, and reversed that trend in less than a month. Russia, Syria and Iran together whipped ISIS like a redheaded stepchild in far less than the time the USA fannied about, pretending to fight ISIS when, more often than not, it simply bombed ahead of their advancing forces so that the SAA had to retreat and give ground. The USA’s new mission in Syria is to protect the Kurds while they carve out an autonomous state for themselves from Syrian land. Plan A was the conquest and ruin of Syria; Plan B12 is to implant as many troublemakers as possible in Syria so that it will never know peace, and so that the USA can always invite itself back as arbiter.

  90. turcopolier says:

    Don’t be dense. pl

  91. Christian Chuba says:

    Masyaf, Syria looks like it is about 30 miles from Lebanon and 1,400ft+ above sea level.
    What kind of guided bombs do F15/6’s have? If it has a gravity, glide assisted bombs, I would think that it would need altitude to hit a target at that distance and that would make it visible on RADAR. If it can launch a cruise like missile then yeah, it could hug the ground.
    The Russians are going to be very reluctant to actually fire on an Israeli Jet for the same reason that they haven’t fired on our aircraft even though they have the tech to do so, we did shoot down a Syrian Jet and have attacked Syrian forces a few times. From a technical point of view, I am curious why no missiles have been countered yet. Maybe no Pantsirs were close enough to the target. I hope they have a couple in Damascus.

  92. Mikee says:

    Isn’t that sort of thing done by the progressives?

  93. Phil Cattar says:

    English Outsider…You are 100% correct.There is not even much of an overlap.All Jews are not Israelis.And ,to be accurate, all Israelis are not Jews since many Israeli citizens are Muslim and Christian Palestinians……Also many of the Jews of the world have no use for the Likud Party or Netanyahu…………………There is an old Jewish saying…………”If you have 2 Jews in a room you have 3 opinions”.

  94. Anna says:

    “…but Jews, Zionist or non-Zionist, are accustomed to the expression of anti-semitic sentiments and will therefore find in such remarks anti-semitism rather than anti-Zionism.”
    But this is not the problem of those who criticize, justly, Zionism, – don’t you think so? There was a tremendous amount of compassion for the Jewish victims of the WWII. There are numerous Holocaust museums (very expensive, by the way). The Jewish tribe put itself on a pedestal as the most victimized victim. the most moral state, and the most exceptional people. When the reality does not agree with the hype, those who point towards the naked king are punished for telling the truth. There has been a vigorous censure of any critique of Israel; many decent and principled people lost their jobs for pointing towards the obvious – the inhuman, dishonest, and amoral behavior of zionists and ziocons.
    The US and EU could well have found reasons to intervene in the Middle East without the well-organized push from Israel-firsters in the US and the Friends of Israel in the UK. And yet, the ziocons were the most prominent and active promoters of the interventions (and the issuing slaughter); this is the reality we live in.
    The sorry truth is that the most victimized victims and the most moral state are neither. What is the difference between the ideology of Nazi Germany and the ideology of Israel? – None. Both ideologies peddle the same supremacist “stuff” (from the same root of the German Romanticism).
    Why Solzhenitsyn’s documentary about the history of Jews in Russia has been sequestered by all western publishing houses? Documentary! – This is a scandal.
    Why the US Congress gave 29 standing ovations to the thuggish Bibi? – Corruption. Bribing.
    It is time for Jewish tribe to understand that the enormous reserve of compassion towards the Jews has been squandered by the belligerent and profoundly dishonest policies of ziocons, by the history of the Gaza Ghetto, and by the incessant attacks by the Zionists on the freedom of speech in the US and EU. Enough already. The wars in the Middle East have produced some 4.000.000 deaths among the civilian population. This is quite a load on the Jewish conscience in the context of Oded Yinon plan and Clean Break project. Time to repent. They should learn from Germans.

  95. Babak Makkinejad says:

    “Israel” means the Jewish People; strange name for a state had it not been so named intentionally in fulfillment of a religious aspiration.
    The national anthem of Israel sings of the “longing in the soul of a Jew”, what more can be said?
    They, the Israelis, can model themselves after France tomorrow, declare a secular democratic republic – with Liberty and Justice for All – called Free Republic of Palestine.
    If they cannot do that much, perhaps, they could model themselves after Islamic Republic of Iran and create a religious-centered constitution, with citizenship for all minority religions, called Hebrew Republic of Palestine, or perhaps, the Judiac Republic of Palestine.
    Please, let us not kid ourselves here and allow the Names to stand for True Things.

  96. Babak Makkinejad says:

    The Israel of “…the Israel of idealism and hope…”?
    We must be talking of about another country, usually referred to as the United States.

  97. mike says:

    CC –
    I have no clue as to what PGMs the Israelis have. In any case, you are right that there may have been a pop-up in altitude just prior to the strike.
    But that does not negate some terrain masking in that mountainous area. Maysal is not on a 1400 ft plateau, looks to be in a valley. Plus there is the element of surprise with a last minute pop-up. Or even radar spoofing maybe?

  98. Philippe T. says:

    What is the impact of the recent events in Syria on the Jordan – Israel relationship? I read few comments on this aspect of the current conflict.
    Ph T

  99. LeaNder says:

    This malaise still persists and once again we have Northern Europeans indulging in it – this time by trying to resurrect the tatters of Celtic Culture and posit is as the true antecedent European culture.
    Babak, I am wondering a bit were did you discover some type of revival of Celtic Culture, vaguely confined to “Northern Europe”. I do have a suspicion what might be on your mind in this context, though.
    I think, looking at the Western Civilization as an outsider – eine Auslander und MorgenLander – that it lacks a center which only a religion could provide.
    First “eine Auslander” is incorrect. It’s either “eine”, and in that case it would need to be “Ausländerin”. Since you are male, the correct form would be “ein Ausländer”, a foreigner someone from a foreign land.
    But since you offer religion as a one-size-fits-all solution, how would you deal with the more complex pre-enlightenment or pre-French Revolution history of anti-Judaism, religious enmity versus later secular anti-Semitism?
    As an afterthought, what are your feelings concerning the troubles around the “holy cow” between Muslim and Hindus in India?

  100. MRW says:

    Israel would need US military help to confront Iran, ex-deputy IDF chief says.
    “Former IDF Deputy Chief of Staff Maj. Gen. Yair Golan addresses the Washington Institute’s 2017 Zeev Schiff Memorial Lecture on September 10, 2017.
    A former deputy chief of staff in the Israeli military said Israel would need the US military in order to confront Iran in a future outbreak of hostilities.
    Golan’s speech came hours after a reported Israeli airstrike on a Syrian missile base that many saw as a message to Iran, Russia and other countries acting in Syria that Israel was willing to act to protect its interests.”

  101. Castellio says:

    Your overview @72 is mature, reasonable and responsible. Unfortunately, it is very much out of date.
    Your post captures a certain balance of forces and concepts that would have been accurate in 1917, but not now.
    For the vast majority of Israelis Herzl’s vision is not a “mirage”, as you say, but a living reality. For the vast majority of Israelis Jabotinsky’s policies are not unworkable fantasy, as you imply, but a proven path forward.
    As for the “further horrors”, the point is that they fall on someone else; and that is the priority. The USA is fully committed to that priority, and follows a foreign policy with that clear intention, quite happy to visit cruelty and havoc on Israel’s neighbours.
    Is it wrong for Anna to bring that to our attention?
    It needs be mentioned, too, that Israel exists as a nuclear power with multiple delivery systems, including more nuclear-weapons capable submarines than are operated by either the U.K, France or Germany, the “great powers” of the last century. Do you think that simply irrelevant?
    With your statement: “… with the treatment of the Palestinians as damaging to the fabric of Israeli society as it is destructive and humiliating for the Palestinians themselves” you clearly prefer rhetoric to fact. That might be what you want to believe, but its certainly not what the vast majority of Israelis believe, nor does it reflect what has actually happened over the last 100 years.

  102. Anna says:

    “The Race For Deir Ezzor: US And Syrian Forces Are About To Collide:”
    “US Continues to Evacuate ISIL Commanders from Deir Ezzur amid Syrian Army’s Rapid Advances:”
    We are witnessing a confluence of the ziocons’ and Deep State’ interests; the Deep State includes mega war profiteers, oilmen, and the main dealers in finances (FedReserve-Wall Street-City of London). Here is a sampling: “A local subsidiary of the New York-listed company Genie Energy — which is advised by former vice president Dick Cheney and whose shareholders include Jacob Rothschild and Rupert Murdoch — will now have exclusive rights to a 153-square mile radius in the southern part of the Golan Heights. That geographic location will likely prove controversial. Israel seized the Golan Heights in the Six-Day War in 1967 and annexed the territory in 1981. Its administration of the area — which is not recognized by international law — has been mostly peaceful until the Syrian civil war broke out 23 months ago.”
    But the “guiding” blueprint of Oded Yinon Plan remains obvious. The international law is not valid anymore. The next step could be catastrophic for many mullions of human beings.

  103. DH says:

    “You do not seem to grasp that the murder of Jews across multiple states in Europe during WWII was symptomatic of a malaise across all of Europe. This malaise still persists and once again we have Northern Europeans indulging in it – this time by trying to resurrect the tatters of Celtic Culture and posit is as the true antecedent European culture.
    I think, looking at the Western Civilization as an outsider – eine Auslander und MorgenLander – that it lacks a center which only a religion could provide.”
    I’m guessing you mean Europe has never recovered from WWI.
    Fascinating thoughts about the resurrection of Celtic culture as the true antecedent of European culture. Can there be a grain of truth in this? I understand they were Christianized/Romanized at the point of a sword, so was the original zeitgeist of the conquered people fully extinguished?
    As far as Western Civilization itself, I have the feeling that liberalism carries the seed of its own destruction, i.e., it is fertile ground for nihilism.
    In any event, do you have a good article on this Celtic business? Here is one for you about the discovery of ancient gene pools:

  104. Babak Makkinejad says:

    Thank you for the German lesson.
    I stand by what I wrote.
    And I have no feelings in regards to the mutual communal antipathies between Sunni Muslims and Hindus in India.
    Perhaps you can answer the following:

  105. Babak Makkinejad says:

    What is Europe?

  106. Croesus says:

    Is “but I’m French” a new form of argumentation that (ahem) trumps logic and facts-on-the-ground?
    Same applies to the all-purpose antisemitism charge, and to vaguely phrased allusions to events 70+ years ago about which an honest and thorough assessment has not only not been permitted but has been actively censored and even criminalized.
    By those desperate acts of censorship, the dogmatized narrative of the “dark follies” of the last century has been neutered; it’s meaningless.
    Maybe it’s worse than meaningless: it may be the case that the behaviors witnessed in real-time, today, are provoking a re-investigation of the activities, alleged vs. real — of yesterday. When did today’s leopard grow those spots?
    Tragically, as current events bear witness, because the history was (and remains) distorted, the appropriate lessons were not learned from history, and policies based on that distorted history were — what else could they be — out-of-focus.
    “Without a vision, the people perish.”

  107. Babak – if you feel like that about the Beltway then Heaven help us if you turn your eagle eye on the Westminster Village. Were I to allow Names to stand for True Things when characterising that bunch of losers the Colonel would ban me in perpetuity.
    Loser No. 1 has been told she’ll do for Brexit – no one else wants to carry the can for the mess that’s going to be made of that – but when it comes to serious stuff like the next General Election her party wants someone with voter appeal. Of course the Conservative party doesn’t have anyone with voter appeal but they haven’t thought about that detail yet.
    My suggestion that they should borrow Trump seems to have got tangled up in technical difficulties.
    Anna – I think your summary is correct although as ever some solid documentation would be nice. But I think calling getting on for twenty million people, and such a disparate group too, “the Tribe” is wrong. None of the Jews I’ve met would take kindly to that.
    Syria is a tragedy of immense proportions. I’m not attempting to minimise that. The only difference between the Israelis and us is that they are more honest about it. They don’t give a damn if millions of Arabs have their lives wrecked as long as what they see as their interests are served. Our lot are less honest and hide behind R2P and all that nonsense but they still think and act the same way. If you want to see the people of Israel suffer for what their masters got up to, with or without their consent, then by the same reasoning we in other Western countries should also suffer for what our masters got up to, with or without our consent.
    In a sense we will indeed all suffer. The consequences of defeat for us will be far-reaching. But there’ll be no reparations exacted and no retribution in our case and it is therefore illogical to expect that for the Israelis.

  108. ISL says:

    You deflect and change topic. You didnt answer: Which Lebanon? Hezbollah? The Lebanese Govt. Another confessional group?
    In any case all that would happen is that Israel would launch from over the Med and the missile would overfly Lebanon. Unless Lebanon is integrated into the Russian Air Defense system, there is no Lebanese option against Israel attacking Syria. Russia has many options – IMO the best are covert as the message will be heard, with less likelihood of a dangerous escalation.
    Hezbollah has an effective deterrent against Israeli attacks against Lebanon – the Lebanese govt has none – and Hezbollah is uninterested in escalation with Israel at the moment. If the Lebanese govt seeks a deterrent for Israel, why hasn’t it done so? Oh, I forget, the US would oppose. BFD. The US opposed Hezbollah getting a deterrent, and they have a deterrent.
    IMO the answer lies in the complexity and instability of the Lebanese political system, which all sides leverage to keep weak and ineffective. Imagining the Lebanese govt managing an effective deterrent is to imagine a different country that the one Lebanon is today (and which too many internal and external actors want to remain weak).

  109. Emad says:

    In your estimation, what percentage of the Russian Jews who left for Israel and are now back in Russia are
    1. Considered culturally Russian (in the broadest sense of the word) by non-Jewish Russians?
    2. Viewed favorably by non-Jewish Russians?
    3. In some way connected to the Russian oligarchs?
    4. Going to fight for Russia, if push comes to shove?

  110. Babak Makkinejad says:

    Tell him brother.

  111. Babak Makkinejad says:

    Thank you for your comments.
    I think Europe never recovered from the Cult of Reason and the worst features of the Enlightenment Tradition; such as Rousseau’s insidious fantasies of the Noble Savage, Social Contract, etc. – all grafted to the intesely moralitic sentiments that were rooted in Christianity.

  112. Babak Makkinejad says:

    I think you need to consecrate the place, the work, and the prople; once you discard teligion you are left with the Folk, the Nation, and the Welfare system.
    Thanks for the URL, I wonder what White racists eill make of it.

  113. Babak Makkinejad says:

    That is the nub of it, you and other people and governments in Europe had no dog in that fight that could ser, yet you chose sides.
    It could not have been based on any dispassionate considerations of monetary or material profit and loss.

  114. Castellio – “Anna’s” summary is very cogent. But just as I don’t like being lumped in with the white supremacists because I happen to be white it’s indisputable that there are any number of people who don’t like being lumped in with the ultra-Zionists because they happen to be Jews.
    I don’t know about how relevant nuclear weapons are. I suppose it depends on how close to their country the Israelis are prepared to use them.
    On the effect on the Israelis themselves of the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians I do believe that it harms Israeli society. Maybe, as you say, not in the early settlement period. As I have said, attitudes were so different way back that it was taken for granted that it was right for the settlers to take precedence of the natives. Also not in the “Golden Years.” As I have said, the Palestinian issue was swept under the carpet for most and didn’t figure for Israelis much then. Nor for us, of course – I have relatives who visited Israel much later than that and spent some time there helping clear rocks from fields for cultivation. It never occurred to my relatives that they were working on stolen land.
    But that was then. There are plenty of Israelis now who know that what’s happening is wrong and who feel uneasy about it.
    On your central point, I’m sure you’re right – many Israelis are still living the Herzl dream and still reckoning Jabotinsky type policies will secure it for them. I don’t think they themselves are right, though. The only thing more foolish than downplaying the current support of the West is to take for granted that it will last for ever.

  115. LeaNder says:

    By contrast, the Sunni ISIS followers have a much narrower concept of the correct faith and this has meant many ex Syrian and Iraqi military men fail the faith test and are either ignored or killed.
    thanks JD,
    appreciated your however broad brush.
    Nitwit response, and I surely am no expert on ISIS.
    But interesting you seem to assume/have intelligence/a more profound understanding that the ISIS ideology necessarily led to the former professionals to be cleaned from Isis ranks.
    More from the surface ISIS is no threat to Israel, since the world agrees on the necessity to fight them, while in the case of Hezbollah or Hamas Israel the world from the Israeli perspective may be considered some type of “innocents abroad”?

  116. Croesus says:

    So– are we ALL infants?
    “I just went along with what my government decreed.”
    “I was just following orders.”

  117. fanto says:

    To All,
    This is one of the (many) fascinating threads, on SST, and I am grateful to the Colonel for creating and maintaining it in this present form. The comments of Anna,English Outsider, Costellio, Lemur, DH, Babak Makkinejad prompted me to join in on the conversation.
    The more we know from archeology and history in general, the more complicated and difficult is to make sense of what is “the Human Past”. How social forms developed – tribes, nations, languages, races. Wars, “vae victis”, drinking from human skulls, ‘to victors belong the spoils’, the mass killings of nations, the Holocausts, all ‘the good, the bad and the ugly’ of human history comes into focus in those comments. From that viewpoint, the cult of Shoah is usurping by one group of people the supreme right of victimhood all above others. (like Poles, Slavs, and Gypsies, the tuberculous patients and the feeble minded victims,); The tragedy of victim becoming perpetrator of crimes, never ending sequence of good and evil; the Old Testament ‘eye for an eye’ and the New Testament of ‘turning the other cheek’. History written by victors. Just mind boggling. But it is the reality which needs to be reflected on.
    Two more topics which, I think, need to be included in discussion of the “Jewish Question” are – the lack of assimilation on one hand and mimicry of some on the other hand.
    Next, the reply of Anna (# 47) – my conclusion from your comment is, although this is not mentioned in your comment, that dual citizenship leads to dual loyalty and it should be abolished.
    Next, the comment #82 of Babak Makkiinejad – “murder of Jews across multiple states in Europe during WWII was symptomatic of a malaise across all of Europe”. I do not understand it. What malaise is it in Europe, and what have Celts to do with it? Pogroms and persecutions of Jews were repeated events in Europe over hundreds of years. Germans have not started it.
    Next, the comment #97 of English Outsider – I think one can say with a little freedom of tongue (not to say ‘poetic license’ because this is too serious a topic to mix poetry with it) that there is factually “ziocon occupation of USA” – if the Congress gives Netanyahu 29 or 30 standing ovations while the President is out of the country. Pure fear and intimidation – just like the party members in Stalin’s times were looking at each other who will stop clapping first, nobody wanted to be the first one…
    Next, Castellio (#118) – very well put.
    Next, DH (#120) I am interested in the Celtic culture, not sharing the same DNA, and have accumulated several books on this topic – the best ones, most comprehensive to a lay person like myself are:
    THE CELTIC WORLD. An Illustrated History of the Celtic Race. Their Culture, Customs and Legends. by Barry Cunliffe.
    Greenwich House, 1986.
    Very detailed and nicely illustrated; but paper and print of a lesser quality as compared to the next source.
    DIE KELTEN by Martin Kuckenburg
    Konrad Theiss Verlag, 2010
    2nd Edition. (in German)
    Comprehensive monograph on Celtic people in continental Europe and in England and Ireland, beautifully illustrated.
    The numbers on the left side of comments change sometime when one goes to the section for over 100, ‘show more comments’ – so my numbering may be somewhat off, sorry about that.

  118. JerseyJeffersonian says:

    DH @ #91,
    Very interesting link. Provocative.
    But if I remember my past reading in Oswald Spengler’s Decline of the West, he introduced a provocative concept, that of pseudomorphosis; if my understanding is correct, he posited that sometimes certain civilizations receive an imprint from another civilization that imposes a “false form”, or if you will, a sort of false consciousness upon the recipient civilization that is in some important way contrary to their cultural essence. Again, if I remember aright, he posited that the conversion to Christianity, a derivative of a religiosity at root that of a Semitic worldview, was an example of a pseudomorphosis. If this were true, it would be unsurprising that eruptions of the antecedent European/Celtic/Germanic/Pagan ground might be seen to emerge from time to time and in various ways. For instance, motifs and culturally-driven insights from that precedent culture may be seen in Gothic cathedrals; the figures of intertwined beasts, and representations of the Green Man can be found amongst the stone carvings. Also one sees how the gods and goddesses of that pagan past have been taken over and slotted into the panoply of Catholic saints, and sometimes the old pagan shrines themselves have been repurposed to the service of a Semitically-based religiosity that is to my mind fundamentally discordant with the indigenous world view.
    Food for thought anyway.

  119. LeaNder says:

    What is Europe? A continent with a larger complex history. As Asia? As America?
    Thank you for the German lesson.
    You’re welcome.

  120. DH says:

    abak, thank you. It’s hard to draw the line at how far the Enlightenment should go, and no further. I suppose the fallback position is one cannot prove there is no Deitiy.
    Fanto, thank you for the recommendations. If I am not mistaken the Celts not only migrated to the British Isles, but also to Asia Minor where they became Galatians.
    JJ, thank you. It’s hard to know what is due to ancient culture, and how it could possibly affect brain structure (the magnification of tendencies). A culture in the north with winters would be very oriented to changing seasons, and have corresponding symbols.
    I guess religions are rife with borrowed symbols. IIRC in Judaism there are/were two poles on either side of the altar that were a holdover from earlier religions. As far as borrowing buildings of worship, early Christians walled in old Greek temples to make them into churches.

  121. Croesus – If I’m reading you correctly the problem you refer to is one that bothers most of us, just as it bothered a lot of Germans seventy years ago and as I expect it bothers a lot of Israelis now. If you’ve found a solution to it let me know. I haven’t.
    Solzhenitsyn had a go at the problem, though in a Russian context rather than ours, as has been discussed on the Colonel’s site before. Solzhenitsyn didn’t find a solution, not one of any practical use. I rather suspect there isn’t one.
    Babak – You and I have already looked at the how responsible the average European is for the Syrian debacle. More than most areas of government foreign policy is something the cronies arrange for us. We the people don’t have a lot to do with it. Most Europeans would be appalled if they knew what their governments were helping with in the ME and elsewhere. But they don’t. It’s the information gap.
    That’s why we’re here, reading SST instead of the NYT or the Guardian. Bridging the information gap.

  122. turcopolier says:

    I have refused to post some of Croesus’ more anti-Semitic comments. pl

  123. LeaNder says:

    They, the Israelis, can model themselves after France tomorrow, declare a secular democratic republic – with Liberty and Justice for All – called Free Republic of Palestine.
    This is interesting. Room full of mirrors? You keep reminding me, why it felt you could be exactly the opposite to what you pretend to be. Would “enemies” always mirror each other? … I thought about mirrors once again listening and then reading Golan’s speech in Washington. …
    But this surely reminds me of it, maybe part of the reason why we clashed on Charlemagne? Quite some time ago. Remember? I still would love to see an exchange or discussion between you and e.g. Patrick Bahzad on Lebanon, by the way.
    My most favorite and somehow pretty innocent, since in non-reflective repetition mode, ‘Hasbarah’, Richard Witty, once wrote: “Israel is as Jewish, as France is French.”

  124. Babak Makkinejad says:

    Iran is more like France than Israel could ever be.
    What nonsense.

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