"But then Kerry said: "You know education – if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq."" Sydney Morning Herald
—————————————————————————
Am I sensitive about this? You bet!
A botched joke? Sure, but a botched joke in which a clever writer tried to communicate the usual Kerry ambiguity about the "grunts" and in which Kerry’s delivery betrayed his real attitude? Probably. This is the man who told his friends from the cute little boats that he wasn’t talking about them when he told the senate of the United States that the US infantry in Vietnam was the functional equivalent of Genghiz Khan’s horde.
Don Imus tried today to give him the chance to make a really forthright repudiation of his mistake. He would not take the opportunity offered, and when Imus pointed out to him that the remark, error or not, was especially damaging to the Democratic Party because of his "previous remarks," Kerry insisted on saying that he just told the truth, as he had always told the truth, "as he had when he returned from South East Asia…." This is a reference to his slander of American soldiers’ service in Vietnam. He was then the spokesman for the "Winter Soldier" crowd and then publicly made assertions about supposed atrocities in VN which he eventually admitted he had never observed personally. This is the same man who bought medals in a war surplus store so that he could take part in a "street theater" scene involving throwing away military medals while he carefully kept his own.
Democrats! Beware! This man is poison for your chances.
Pat Lang
PS – Really ugly comments will be deleted before posting.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/kerrys-attempt-at-humour-no-joke/2006/11/01/1162339918697.html
I heard his comments before the rightwing blew them up. I have to say I understood the joke. He clearly wasn’t talking about the troops, he was talking about Bush. Even the people in attendance understood it was a joke about Bush as evidenced by their laughter…
Later I watched the media (the SCLM) take his comment and render the “offensive” completely bereft of context in a wholly disembodied textual format. They did this I suppose to inject a measure of controversiality to it where none previously existed. I mean why should they show the chaos and bloodied dead of Iraq when they can stir up a domestic snit?
Too bad really, but it wasn’t Kerry’s fault…
AND it was a pretty good joke…
The worst thing Kerry can do at this point is to emulate Durbin when the good senator apologized for his comments about G’tmo. It made him look both stupid and weak. If Kerry is going down it is far better for him to come out swinging and land a few hard punches on the way down…
People respect a fighter…
And people will remember the fight long after the preliminary verbiage has disappeared down the memory hole…
I voted for the guy in 2004 (first time my decision was made because “at least he’s not as bad as the other guy”) even though it was clear to me that he is only half as clever as he thinks he is. It’s painful to listen to him speak because he telegraphs his gaffes; you can tell he’s going to “botch a joke” five sentences before he goes and does it.
I agree that his statement probably betrayed his feelings. His aloof attitude came through as he spoke during his own campaign, and I think it helped him lose the election. A lot of people couldn’t get comfortable with him. He’s liable to cost some other people’s elections if he can’t keep his mouth shut. If the Winter Soldier testimony is the yardstick for truth, he’s in trouble. Even at that, he’s better than Bush. That means we’re in trouble.
Kerry poison for our chances, yes. He had the opportunity to lead and failed to rise to the task. He (and too many democrats) are too focused on the youthful energy of the party and upon ‘nuance’. He caters too much to ‘advisors’ rather than standing for his principles – which your characterization highlights clearly. The democratic leadership has consistently failed to develop mature leaders at all levels – the time is past due for the senior elected officials to put together a true leadership development program that is not geared to political science students, groupies and the next campaign, but true leadership development and adherence to the founding principles of our constitutional government. (I’ll let you know in ’07 just how serious the MI delegation is in doing just that.)
I’m already angry with Kerry because he had given a paltry sum (something like $25,000) to the Senate committee for this year’s races, and he bristled when bloggers went after him to donate more (he has a HUGE war chest for his ’08 run, sigh). After a week of excuses, he finally ponied up $500,000.
One of his excuses for not donating is that he’s raised so much money by campaigning for this year’s candidates. Well, he needs to get real here — his primary motive in showing up around the country is to give HIMSELF face time.
And, I don’t think he offers a very positive message in photographs and video with this year’s candidates. He’s the symbol of the 2004 loss. He’s the symbol of failing, in 2004, to stand up to Bush and to ‘fess up that his vote for the war was a mistake.
I cannot believe the Democrats would be so stupid to nominate him again. But one never knows. His money is a factor. And, even though he was NOT popular in the grassroots in ’04, he manipulated his way to the nomination.
In the Viet Nam War it was possible to get 5 deferments and never serve at all. Kerry could have been talking about the men who are making decisions now, who did not serve then. But maybe not. He still has yet to repeat his deadly sentence about being the last man to die for a mistake. It seems to me that Bush is in that position. How many men is Bush asking to die for a mistake?
Sagredoh! @10:25AM:
(Pat, I’ll understand if you pull this comment.)
People love a fighter? If you’re referring to Kerry, you’re kidding, right? He’s not exactly noted for landing a few hard punches on the way down. More for his pillow talk while he heals up at public expense, and for sucking wealth out of older women.
Yes, the bad joke WAS Kerry’s fault, because even if you’re rich and don’t give a good goddamn it’s still your personal responsibility to maintain situational awareness of what planet you live on, and to at least look out for your side.
And maybe he is. Not being a member of the Skull and Bones fraternity the Bush family founded, I wouldn’t know. If Kerry’s not an outright Republican Secret Weapon, then he is surely a conniving, quibbling c*********. Can’t you even see a fake when it wears a warning label?
I would say his ‘joke’ is some inadvertant truthtelling about class and military service in the US. If you don’t get a good education (equals upper class), you leave yourself vulnerable to being used and abused by those in charge. Those whose parents can’t buy an expensive education or who can’t get a scholarship can get one thru the military. That means going to Iraq.
Bush and Rumsfeld have been playing with our military like they are GI Joe toys. Anyone who had any real military experience would not be so cavalier and hence stupid about their use. However, since the current brass are mostly careerists and booklickers who are sucking up to their civilian masters, you do get a few in uniform who believe the fantasy. BTW. Kerry is an inept politician with primarily selfserving impulses and I wish he would just retire and manage the wife’s fortune.
Veteran 1969-1971
Whatever Kerry meant (and personally I suspect he just slipped and went into a generational time warp where it CERTAINLY was the truth when he was in the service… at least the truth for the vast, vast, vast, majority of draftees)he was darn near breaking a taboo this time. In fact a couple of them. First of all he was implicitly taking a swipe at the American solider. That is verboten among most classes in America. Period. You want to go down in flames, professionally, politically, or in society, try it in public. Even though there is much, much, to criticize. Second…..he was an elite speaking a second truth about who is on the fast track to rule the nation….and who is on a fast track to Iraq et al.
I won’t go into the Winter Solider group except to say that its been my experience that both the ‘Winter Solider’s’ versions of events (some members of the group, anyway) and PL’s version of events (or what I suspect is PL’s version of events is since I don’t know for sure) are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
In any event suffice to say that Kerry has always been a terrible messenger for interesting, controversial, and provocative messages. But if I were him I would spit in the eye of those calling for me to apologize.
Many (not all, but many) of the ones criticizing him now are the very ones that owe the most profound apologies to the armed forces personal and their families. And the nation as well. And there are other people who owe apologies. And we can start at the top of the military with the generals who remained, and remain, silent even though knew better…..and work our way down to the last swinging D at Abu Ghraib. Oh, and one more can apologize. The solider, on duty, in civilian clothes who took the pictures of the grandmothers protesting outside the Brunswick Naval Station in Maine as they peacefully protested the Iraq Debacle. Oh…and the soldiers, on duty, who may have intercepted her mail. Both snail and email.
Calling Bush an idiot is all well and good with me, but in this we have to consider the source telling the joke. Does anyone else remember that Kerry got worse grades at Yale than Bush — allthough both were gunning for a C average. I held my nose and voted for Kerry in 2004. But I cannot believe the ego of this gas bag! I don’t think I am alone in wishing that JK would just get out of they way…
Anyone who didn’t know Kerry was a dimwit after he botched the “Is God on our side?” question needs some serious clue infusions. Why anyone is listenting to him any more is also a mystery.
I’ve never liked Kerry and the elitism that he represents.
But as I look at this keruffle and how it is playing out in corporate media land I have an observation and question –
The Decider while campaigning yesterday stated to paraphrase “If the Democrats get elected the terrorists win”. This drew yawns from the corporate media and no one was out screaming their lungs for an apology. So it seems that it is expected that the Repubs can be out of line in their public statements and there is no knucle knocking.
On the other hand a gaffe by Kerry intentional or unintentional means its the end of the world and the Democrats are troop haters.
The question that arises is who hates our troops more – the Kerryites that slight our troops or the Deciderites that mislead the country into a war of choice that kills and maims thousands of our troops and stiffs them when the return?
Yeah Dan…and his three wounds in combat were only slightly more serious than a certain person’s coke addiction. And the latter did not even get a medal that he could throw away if he wanted to.
What the hell do grades back in the 60s have to do with it?
I’m curious to hear what you think he got wrong in the specific statement in question
I wonder if Jim Webb is going to retract his handshake?
Yes, I voted for him in ’04 – by default. I simply chose a former hockey player over a former cheerleader. I believe he has the proverbial snowball’s chance in hell for the future. Kinda like choosing between a late night drive with Ted Kennedy or a hunting trip with dick Cheney. I saw no candidates that I was really interested in for POTUS back in ’04 which is why I became part of the Draft Clark movement.
Won’t be a problem for the Dems in ’06, maybe Kerry in ’08 (I hope), but if the Repubs are talking about Iraq in these next 6 days then they are losing.
Now I retract what I wrote. NOW Kerry has allowed himself to be buffaloed, by, in many cases, hypocrites, criminals and phonies into issuing a completely unnecessary apology…. NOW the Senator has something to apologize about. And now, because of the apology, not because of the initial statement, the Dems just upped their chances of losing the election. How friggin ironic. Those soldiers will be posting REAL signs about being REALLY stuck in Iraq in the future I fear. As will the entire friggin nation. What a sickening day this is. Tonight I crack a vintage bottle…Rove has pulled it off again thanks to the gutlessness of his opponents.
Whatever Kerry’s sins are with regard his post-Vietnam testimony, he is the guy who pulled a man out of the water under fire and saved that man’s life. He is the guy who was wounded defending his country even when he believed his country was wrong. Which guy would you want in the foxhole with you, the inarticulate, preppy, rich boy who put his life on the line or the inarticulate, preppy rich boy who thought the war was just fine and yet took a pass and still doesn’t have the courage to own up to it? They would both be colossal bores in a confined space, but I think it is apparent who would be more likely to have your back.
You can take offense at Kerry’s remark if you want to, but I would choose the Winter Soldier over the Sunshine Patriot to look after my interests anyday.
Thanks for that Pat. Very good and interesting points. One thing though.
I’m not sure what to make of this Pat. I was under the impression that he threw his ribbons over the fence at the Capitol and never professed to having thrown his medals, as recalled by Thomas Oliphant at The Boston Globe – who was there.
It’s just that I have little patience for third-hand accounts and hearsay.
I’m supposed to care about what some dude named “John Kerry” says? Why? Why is anybody paying any attention to this LOSER anyhow??? He promised to fight for the Presidency, then broke his promise. Frankly, I don’t have the time of day for chickenshits like that.
I’m sure he(66) and George B.(68) will someday have a hearty laugh over this whilst sipping sherry’s at their next Skull & Bones reunion.
Remember who these people are.
The scary thing is that we would still be better off with Hockey player as president than a cheerleader. The poorer members of our society tend to end up in Iraq. It has nothing to with intelligence. Kerry has plenty of money and he sure as hell isn’t that bright.
I don’t care much for John Kerry. He seems to be a bit too opportunistic for my taste, although that same taste greatly reduces the field of eligible politicians to like. He is also so wooden that some brit publication described him as both looking and sounding “like a haunted tree.” He almost always botches the joke because, as far as I can tell, he has no genuine sense of humor. In addition, of the many war heroes I have had the honor to meet, he is among the very few to try to capitalize on that hero status, most can barely discuss their experiences and then only among those also in the club. The moment he saluted the convention upon his nomination I knew that the Dems were in very serious trouble.
Having said all of that, I just do not get the objection regarding his Vietnam era Congressional testimony. The speech itself appears to be the high point of his personal eloquence and the last known example of genuine Kerry passion. His point then seemed quite obvious to me, that the war was itself a kind of poison, a brutalizing experience leading Americans out of character and away from traditional values. I really did not take it then, nor do I take it now, to have been a general indictment of American soldiers in Vietnam. It was to me a very stirring indictment of those who sent them there and put them in that position which inevitably leads to atrocity and ultimately the dehumanization of our own troops.
The point worthy of remembering, and repeating, is that occupation is a very dirty business and frankly Americans are not now, nor will we ever, be good at that. History has shown us that although the vast majority of Americans acted honorably in Vietnam, as they are acting honorably in Iraq, but one Tiger Force, one Abu Ghraib, or one Melai, will inevitably undo that good work.
The primary reason to avoid occupation is the same as the reason to avoid becoming torturers, the ultimate victim will be us. The Kerry of the Vietnam era seemed to understand that.
On one side of the scale: What John Kerry said, botched Bush joke or whatever. On the other side of the scale: That CENTCOM slide showing the direction Iraq is headed, or the insurgent video discussing the importance of the American line of supply from Kuwait.
Kerry is beneath notice. The shit and the fan are in close proximity.
Maybe it’s my Vietnam era experience showing, but I found the joke funny even in the Republican version. I and a great many other people I knew got to do the expense paid tour of the Mekong delta after dropping out of college. I can relate to what he actually said. I might have said it myself. Times may have changed, but I can assure you that in 1968 entering the military was not for most people a result of hard work and successful effort. The strange part is that Kerry himself was not one of those people. He did fine and then went in for much better reasons than mine.
Meanwhile – As rhetorical the shoe shifts to the other foot.
Mike Adams
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/11/republican-house-leader-blames-troops.html
Wednesday, November 01, 2006
Republican House leader blames troops for Iraq mess
by John in DC – 11/01/2006 04:37:00 PM
>>According to the #2 Republican in the US House, Congressman John Boehner, the Iraq mess is all the fault of the US troops on the ground in Iraq. Boehner only moments ago had the following to say about who is to blame for Iraq:
GOP HOUSE MAJORITY LEADER JOHN BOEHNER: Let’s not blame what’s happening in Iraq on Rumsfeld.
WOLF BLITZER: But he’s in charge of the military.
BOEHNER: But the fact is, the generals on the ground are in charge, and he works closely with them and the president.
>>So US generals aren’t as patriotic as other US service members in Iraq? They haven’t made the same sacrifice? They aren’t risking their lives? They’re not just as much heroes as everyone else, doing the best they can in an impossible situation?
>>Do Republican candidates around the country agree that the Iraq mess is the fault of US troops in Iraq?
If sending someone to fight and possibly be maimed or die in a wrong war is “respecting them”,
then, even putting the worst interpretation on Kerry’s words – i.e., without education, you’ll be so dumb that you’ll get pulled willy-nilly into going into such wars –
Kerry is actually stating a profound truth. Strange that anyone should be offended by it.
For instance, maybe if enough Americans knew about the Sunnis and the Shias they wouldn’t have supported the war in Iraq. As it turns out, even people in high positions did not know that.
But Kerry was making a poor joke, the pre-delivery speech transcript supposedly says “If you don’t, you’ll get us stuck in Iraq”.
Colonel – I have admired your willingness to criticize the leaders of the service you so clearly love as well as those politicians who have led us into this disastrous war. It is clear you are offended by Kerry’s role in calling attention to atrocities in Vietnam. But whatever your opinion of the man, you owe him the simple duty of reporting accurately what he said and — to the extent that we can discern it — what his intention was as he said it.
In his 1971 Senate testimony he said:
“…I would like to talk, representing all those veterans [referring to the to members of VVAW sitting behind him], and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.
“It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.
“They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.”
His testimony made it very clear he was referring to what had been testified to by others at the Winter Soldier Investigation, not what he personally had seen or done.
The intention was not to criticize individual soldiers, but the policies that put them in Vietnam:
“In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to use the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart.”
I respect your right to view Kerry however you do, but Kerry exhibited far more moral courage in 1971 than I ever have, and when I heard his senate testimony, I took heart that we might actually end our involvement in that wretched war. For his courage to speak out when it was definitely not popular, I honor him just as I do every other veteran who served our country honorably.
Why is a person who is not n any ballot this election season getting wall-to-wall media coverage? There isn’t anything better or more important? How about we talk about what politicians were doing in the 60’s andm 70’s? That’s WAY more relevant, right?
Sigh…
Excellent comments. It was an ill-advised joke that’s being blown terribly out of proportion. Two non-candidates duking it out over nothing. Just what the campaign season needed.
Kerry is not my favorite guy, and I sure as hell hope he does not run again. But anybody who takes offence at this statement went way the hell out of their way to find something to get bent out of shape about. It’s obvious that there are a lot of people who hate Kerry’s guts and would no matter what he said and would never believe anything but the worst about him. I am also convinced that if the Democrats somehow ran Jesus Christ for president, Rove would find something he had said or done to smear him with and destroy him.
And Bush’s phony folksy talk (“plenty smart and plenty brave”) makes me want to throw up. I’m from Texas and I’ve never run across anybody that talked like that. He’s also got a lot of nerve twisting somebody’s misstatement and using it against them, even John Kerry.
From Australia this guy has looked like a bit of a jerk off, but then again most polis do. He does seem to suffer from a bit of S.S.U.A.S. (silver spoon up a. syndrome)
To be fair, I would never consider joining the military as it seems to be a force protecting corporate interest, if it was about national interest, they would have stayed in Afghanistan until the job was done.
In Vietnam, did not US policy in creating free-fire zones result in the destruction of villages, foodstocks, cattle, and killing anyone who was found in the zones? At risk of sounding dramatic, isn’t that the sort of thing Genghis Khan’s troops did? (Minus drinking the blood of the vanquished out skulls…)
Hey JTDavis,
No doubt. Perhaps I was too harsh. Thats’alsa pretty low bar. Certainly former Republican Sen Hecht of Nevada will always be grateful to Kerry’s quick thinking and action – despite the fact that Hecht was surrounded by senators( Kit Bond being one) – for saving him from choking. And to Kerry’s credit, he never used the event politically – even though Hecht stated he would campaign for him, out of a sense of moral responsibility, but John Kerry never cashed in those chips. Jim Rassman, lifetime Republican and former Green Beret stated Kerry saved his life and worked tirelessly for Kerry’s Band of Brothers. And he was a pretty damned good investigator. However, he has the ability at times to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. In a scrape in a dark alley – if I have to choose between a hockey player or a cheerleader to cover my back – I choose the hockey player every time. I don’t believe anyone can come forward on George Bush’s behalf and say “This man saved my life.” Here’s one that does. Make that two..
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Feb.15,2004
Former U.S. Sen. Chic Hecht of Nevada is a staunch Republican, but he thanks his lucky stars for Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts.
On July 12, 1988, Hecht was attending a weekly Republican luncheon when a piece of apple lodged firmly in his throat.
Hecht stumbled out of the room, thinking he might vomit but not wanting to do it in front of his colleagues. Sen. Kit Bond, R-Mo., thumped his back, but Hecht quickly passed out in the hallway.
Just then, Kerry stepped off an elevator, rushed to Hecht’s side and gave him the Heimlich maneuver — four times.
The lifesaving incident made international news, and Dr. Henry Heimlich, who invented the maneuver in 1974, called Hecht to say that had Kerry intervened just 30 seconds later Hecht might have been in a vegetative state for life.
“This man gave me my life,” the 75-year-old Hecht said Thursday.
Hecht said he was amazed that Kerry acted so quickly — some people were assuming that he was having a heart attack.
“He knew exactly what to do,” he said. “But a lot of people know what to do. They just don’t size up the situation immediately.”
The story has a twist of irony: Hecht was up for re-election that year, and Kerry, who was serving as the chairman of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, had pegged Hecht as one of the most vulnerable Republican seats.
Indeed, the Democratic nominee for Hecht’s seat, then-Gov. Richard Bryan, beat Hecht, who served just one term in office.
“Only in America can this happen, where he’s working against me to get me defeated and then saves my life,” Hecht said.
Hecht, who prides himself on having one of the most conservative records on the books during his six years in the Senate, said he and his wife, Gail, see politics as “a secondary issue” when it comes to Kerry.
“We’ve had a wonderful life, and it would have all been down the tubes,” said Hecht, who is about to celebrate his 45th wedding anniversary with his wife.
Every year the Hechts call Kerry’s longtime personal secretary, who tracks down Kerry wherever he is.
Then they recount some of their experiences in the last year. Hecht and his wife thank Kerry for thinking so quickly in the Senate halls that day. And Kerry tells them that their phone call is one of his favorites of the year.
“He’s so nice and appreciative,” Hecht said.
This year Kerry was taking a day’s vacation from campaigning, and he told them that he thought his campaign was finally gaining momentum.
Some of the Hechts hope so. Both of Hecht’s daughters have attended Kerry events, and Gail Hecht hopes to travel to California the next time Kerry is there to voice her support, Hecht said.
Still, Hecht points out that he and Gail have given the maximum possible contribution to President Bush’s campaign ($2,000 each). Hecht, a longtime businessman and banker, served as President George H.W. Bush’s ambassador to the Bahamas.
Soon after the Iowa caucuses, a former Los Angeles county deputy sheriff and Republican Jim Rassmann stood with Kerry at an event to tell the story of when Kerry saved his life in the jungles of Vietnam.
Rassmann, a Green Beret, was ambushed along Bay Hap river, but Kerry, who also had been injured in the attack, grabbed Rassmann’s arm and pulled him to safety, according to Kerry’s website.
On Wednesday, Roll Call wrote a story about Hecht’s incident. So far, Kerry hasn’t asked Hecht to appear at a campaign event, but Hecht said he would if he were asked.
Hecht won’t, however, say who he would vote for in November if Kerry wins the Democratic nomination.
“Only the Good Lord and myself will know how I’m going to vote,” he said.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/sun/2004/feb/06/516309920.html
Bob Gaines
OK. Produce a personal participant who can stand up to my interrogations concerning anything he personally took part in.
wombat
In VN a “free fire zone” was any place that the Vietnamese government said that you did not require their previous approval to shoot into. Such places were pretty much all without Vietnamese population. The Montagnards got screwed. pl
Dear Col. Lang,
I just revisited your excellent Memorial Day tribute,”Dear Hearts Across The Seas.” Powerful. Further words fail me, thank you.
I did one, plausably normal, tour of duty in VN, and personally witnessed most of the winter soldier allocations. Most of which were not everyday occurances, but, in the course of the year they all added up. I know we’d like to believe it did’nt happen — but it did.
Arun
I presume that since you are so intelligent you have avoided all military service? pl
Kerry’s “joke” alludes to the Marxist position that was popular amongst the far left during and in the wake of WW I. Namely that, children of the lumpenproletariat were expendable, made good cannon fodder, and paid a disproportionate price in war. This argument is totally refuted by the fact that complete classes from Cambridge and Oxford were annihilated in that war. The argument was conveniently placed on the shelf during WW II because the communist world needed the help of the capitalist world to defeat its arch rival, fascism. Then, it reemerged during Vietnam and was smoked furiously by the antiwar set which, a certain Senator played a key role in.
Colonel Lang: “OK. Produce a personal participant who can stand up to my interrogations concerning anything he personally took part in.”
How about the long buried Tiger Force incidents reported by the Toledo Blade? This appears to be a very systemic group of events that could easily have served as the factual basis for the Winter Soldier testimony.
Again, not to disparage the vast majority of soldiers who acted well and bavely, but the point is made, a small number of atrocities overwhelms that reality,whether they could stand up to your interogation or not.
Joe Lurker
OK. He bought some ribbons to throw over the fence. pl
mlaw–
“..not to disparage the vast majority of soldiers who acted well and bavely, but the point is made, a small number of atrocities overwhelms that reality,whether they could stand up to your interogation or not.”
Balderdash! The criminal actions of a few outweigh the virtue of the many?
This is logic? pl
First, thanks for the response re Tiger Force and the Toledo Blade.
Second, yes it is logical, and I would have thought a truism.
Do “[t]he criminal actions of a few outweigh the virtue of the many?” Certainly not objectively or in the eyes of God, but most definitly in the eyes of the citizenry.
Those brutalized by this small group of unspecial soldiers of the Tiger Force no doubt had family and friends. News of such activity, even if isolated and rare as you suggest, would have spread like wildfire. It is doubtful that many of the Vietnamese understood our culture enough to know that
this behavior would have been condemned by the vast majority of Americans.
The criminal actions of 19 Muslims have clearly overshadowed the virtue of the vast number of Muslims who would despise their actions.
Similarly, we frequently hear about the moral difference between the errant bomb that misses a military target and kills civilians and the terrorist bomb in a bus. This too is objectively and undeniably true, yet if it were my child killed, either inadvertantly or with truly evil intent, I would hate the pepretrator equally.
“I am also convinced that if the Democrats somehow ran Jesus Christ for president, Rove would find something he had said or done to smear him with and destroy him.”
Debate, 2008:
In Isaiah 9.1, your campaign study group referred to you as “the Prince of
Peace”. And yet now, as reported last night on Matthew 10.1, you claim to come
“not to send peace, but a sword”. Which is it, Mr. Christ? Were you
for peace before you were against it? And how are we to interpret your
earlier statement, “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be
called the children of God”? Are you *not* a child of God?
Thanks Pat for the ackowledgement on Kerry’s medals/ribbons. Though I have heard nothing convincing that suggests they weren’t his own ribbons that he threw over the fence. It is rather damning to suggest otherwise. Though we’ll probably never know. Like you, I don’t like the guy very much so I don’t care. It’s between him and God. I just wanted to know what the truth was on the parts we can know, as opposed to giving a leg up to all the slime-spewing GOP talking heads of the world.
I’m a Democrat, and I can say with a high degree of confidence that Kerry blew his 2008 chances long before this latest kerfluffle.
All
From a decent respect for the opinions of mankind I should say that my aversion to John Kerry is of long standing, and although the WH is undoubtedly exagerating the extent of pre-meditation of his idiocy, I can never forgive him his earlier statements.
Is that an apology? Hell, no! pl
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2328683.php
who is more of a threat and disgrace to democracy and freedom ???
jeebus
All
From a decent respect for the opinions of mankind I should say that my aversion to John Kerry is of long standing, and although the WH is undoubtedly exagerating the extent of pre-meditation of his idiocy, I can never forgive him his earlier statements.
Is that an apology? Hell, no! pl
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Col. Lang,
I believe anyone should be able to understand that. The only assessment you’ve made that I’ve disagreed with you was when you stated that, perhaps in sarcasm – you were a cruel man. I believe you personify all the best qualities of those that have served in uniform. I hope I’m not offending you but I do consider you a mentor and a teacher to me. As a dependent, when we stationed on Okinawa, all of my baseball and football coaches were Army, Marine, Navy and USAF, all of them served in Vietnam, including my father – this was 66, 67, & 68 and not one of them reminded me of Genghis Khan. Congressional MOH winner chaplain and former Catholic priest Charlie Litke, now an anti war activist never said anything resembling John Kerry’s remark, and he is a serious leftie. I try to make it a point of mentioning Hugh Thompson whenever I hear or see Calley’s name. God bless you, sir.
btw, I am a definitely a southpaw and a Dem.
Most Respectfully,
Robert M Murray