Lesson for today – Shoot back at the nuts!


"Many Democrats and liberal media figures sneer at the “good guy with a gun” narrative when it comes to the debate over gun control, dismissing it as a myth clung to by Bible-thumping rednecks. Yet, if there was ever a single incident to remind us just how wrong they are, it’s the tragic church shooting that was thankfully stopped in its tracks on Sunday.

An armed intruder interrupted a morning service at West Freeway Church of Christ near Fort Worth, Texas, disrupting the ceremony and shooting several worshiping Christians. At least two people are dead as a result, including the suspect, and one injured.

But things could have been much, much worse. Two armed people attending the service intervened and shot the attacker in his tracks after just seconds, undoubtedly saving many lives."   Washington Examiner



"Hours after a knife-wielding man barged into a Hanukkah party in a New York suburb, stabbing five people, top officials condemned the crime as part of a disturbing trend. New York Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo called it "domestic terrorism," linking it to the recent spate of violence against Jewish people in New York.

Anti-Semitic attacks are on the rise around the country, leaving members of the Jewish community feeling frightened and unsafe. In New York City, anti-Semitic crimes have jumped 21 percent in the past year."  Washpost



Well, pilgrims, the lesson contained in these two incidents seems clear to this old troglodyte.  These extremely orthodox Jewish folks were gathered together in their distinctive apparel to celebrate Hanukkah.  The door bell rings.  Someone goes to the door perhaps expecting another celebrant in side curls and funny hat.  Instead, there stood an African American man with a bushy beard and a big knife.  Unhappy with Jewish people for some reason, he proceeds to try to stab all present that he can reach and then flees into the street.

The same day down in Texas in a suburb of Ft. Worth, curiously called "White Settlement" another nut job suddenly produces a weapon from concealment and starts to shoot up the congregation.

Within seconds two congregants draw pistols and shoot him dead.end of attack.

It would seem to me that, however bad both incidents were, the second outcome is preferable.  N.B. that the New York killer was armed with a knife.  If any of the Jews had been armed with a gun this man could have been stopped before he got very far in his mad attack.

Think it over.  pl

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69 Responses to Lesson for today – Shoot back at the nuts!

  1. J says:

    The assailant in Texas was dropped instantly with a head-shot, and collapsed never knowing what hit him. Watching the video, as soon as the shooter shot his first and only victim, one of the parishioners dropped the shooter in quick fashion, it was a clean head-shot.
    The attack in NY, as a result some of the congregation are now open carrying assault rifles to protect their neighborhoods and congregations.
    The governor of NY Gov. Cuomo paid the Rabbi a visit, which had the community outraged especially what Cuomo did signing a stupid piece of legislation by the NY Legislature a few weeks earlier that now puts the entire state of New York and every one of its citizens in physical jeopardy. Needless to say a lot of Orthodox are outraged at Cuomo and the NY state legislature as a result.

  2. Diana C says:

    The long, long history of anti-semitism continues. There was a long history of Christians holding hatred for the Jews, blaming them for the death of Christ on the cross. Hitler grew up hating them for other reasons that only his demented mind could explain.
    I cannot have gun because of my very poor eyesight. But I will always welcome anyone who can carry a gun legally at any event, religious or otherwise, that I may attend, unless of course, the person is a nutcase wanting to cause mayhem.
    Thank heavens for the men in Texas with their guns. I hope they catch the knife-wielding idiot who attacked earlier.
    Those who want to get rid of the Second Amendment rights should be assigned to take a class on the Revolutionary War. Where would we be now if armed citizens had not risen up against the might of what was most likely the strongest army in the world at that time? It was an amazing thing that was accomplished by armed citizens.

  3. Bill H says:

    I was engaged in a discussion about arming teachers in schools and one argument against it went that when the police enter the school they would not know who to shoot. Now, they simply shoot the guy with the gun, but if teachers are armed, they would have to hold fire and if the “guy with the gun” turned out to be the bad guy they would get shot. Therefor, arming teachers would endanger the police.
    Then someone pointed out that if teachers were armed then when police entered the school they would not have to fire at all, because the armed teachers would have shot the bad guy before the police got there, which seemed like a valid argument to me.
    Then someone said that the armed teachers would shoot each other and the police instead of the bad guy, which seemed to me like a stupid argument. The Texas church incident seems to validate my point of view.

  4. divadab says:

    Gunman shot two people before he was shot. Watch the video:
    Three shots in short order – amazing how quickly and accurately volunteer Jack Wilson took down the gunman – and only one shot! (why waste more on scum like that….?)

  5. Vegetius says:

    Throughout the long, long history of anti-Semitism, the same grievances against Jews are repeated over and over by different people in different places and different times. Almost like a pattern. Yet Jews dismiss all of this as irrationality at best, insanity at worst.
    One would think that with their own walled ethnostate established in Palestine, Jews would be hurrying to get away from all these crazy people.
    Instead, they seem unable to do anything but exactly what produces this all of this ‘insanity’. Like demanding the goyim protect their own crazy religious practices at taxpayer expense while simultaneously whining about gun control.

  6. Diana C says:

    As a retired public high school teacher, my argument against allowing teachers to be armed arises from my experience during decades of working with other teachers in many different buildings.
    I would not put my faith in many, if any, of the public high school teachers I knew. I thought many of them, especially the younger teachers, were a little “spacey.” I just wouldn’t trust them to keep their guns in a safe place and safe from the possibility that students could get their hands on them.
    It might have been a different thing in the schools when I first began teaching. At that time, a teacher was assigned one classroom. That classroom served as his/her office on his/her “planning” hour. The students came into that classroom, and it was the teacher’s domain. At that time, I had a key to my classroom and to the desk in that classroom.
    At the end of my career, I was assigned to a desk in a room where other teachers were also assigned to stay during their planning periods. My class rooms for teaching were scattered around the building. Therefore, a teacher with a gun would have to be carrying that gun around the building much of the time to get to different classrooms and to the area for which he or she was assigned for planning. To me that makes for a dangerous situation. Have you ever walked through the hallways of a large public school during the break when students are moving from one class to the next? A student with the will could easily follow a teacher who might be carrying a gun and overpower that teacher to get the gun.
    I was, except for my freshman students, usually smaller than many of the sophomores, and mostly all the juniors and seniors.
    I most definitely would not have trusted many of the teachers on the staff to carry a gun into the building, and I believe most teachers would not have wanted that responsibility.
    I think the stronger argument would be to disallow entrance now into public schools unless each and every person must pass through a screening such as those at airports. Doors accessing the outside at any point in the building should be equipped or manned in some way to screen the people using them. But that rule would cause problems now because many large high schools have “open” lunch hours when older students with cars can leave the campus during lunch.
    Where I last taught, all high schools had an assigned police officer working in the building. Ours was very good at getting to know the students. This was not easy, as there were at least 1,500 of them. He soon learned which of those students were troubled, as the unruly students were often sent to his office instead of to the principal’s office–or were sent there by the principal himself.
    I worked in the district that included Columbine High School. When I moved into that district, I had to do my time as a substitute before being offered a full-time contract. I substituted several times at Columbine before I was granted a full-time contract at a high school across the county from Columbine. For all the news reports about how much everyone loved the principal there, I knew it was because he ran a very relaxed attitude about discipline. Students were leaving the building and coming back into the building at all times. It’s no wonder that the ONE teacher who warned about those boys was not taken seriously. Even the police department had been warned about those boys by the mother of a boy who had once been part of their circle, so to speak.
    The school was in a more affluent part of the county. The attitude seemed to be that these kids were “better” than those at other schools in the district, I think, because they were kids of “privilege.” Some kids of privilege are wonderful kinds; some kids of privilege can become killers. It’s true no matter what “class” students belong to.
    A smaller and, especially a more rural, school could possibly allow an armed teacher or two in the building. Those are places where everyone knows everyone else more intimately. they know the students’ parents and know each student’s personality.
    But those have not been, in most cases, the type of schools where these horrible events have occurred.
    That being said, I know that no place is exempt from having an unhinged person in its midst.
    I never felt frightened in the high school where I completed my teaching career. There were students I did not particularly like, but most of them were students whose parents obviously were not involved in their children’s live and gave them free range to do what they wanted on their free time. And those same parents were often the first to blame the teachers and the schools when their child did something wrong. A good administrative staff can handle those parents simply by having firm rules regarding acceptable behavior in the building that ALL students and adults must follow. Having that assigned police officer in each building was also a very good thing. It’s now very common in my state.

  7. Jack says:

    What’s the best firearm for self-protection?

  8. Upstate NY'er says:

    Disarmed NY brings to mind:
    People get the government they deserve.
    They elected and re-elected that Cuomo douchebag.

  9. PeterVE says:

    The problem is not the well trained gun owners, such as the volunteer security men at the church. The problem is the vastly larger group of idiots who own guns and have no idea how to use or store them.

  10. turcopolier says:

    Peter VE
    Those who fear guns are timid souls who want Daddy or Mommy to take care of them. Elora is a sissy who loves governments.

  11. srw says:

    Read that the security man at the church was a retired FBI agent. Good for him. As for the NY knife wielding incident, maybe we should be glad for NY’s strict gun laws. It would have been a massacre if the knife wielder had a gun.

  12. The congregant who shot the shooter in Texas was not only a retired FBI agent, but he was on duty as a guard during the service. He did not have his nose buried in his prayer book. He was alert and prepared to react, like a sentinel goose. I watched a video of the shooting, that guard calmly and quickly fired aimed shots across the length of the pews. Two congregants were shot by the trench coated shooter while they were trying to draw their concealed weapons. They were too busy worshiping. What this illustrates is the value of dedicated, trained guard personnel in churches, in schools and in other public places. Armed people not paying attention and engaged in other activities are of limited value at best.

  13. Artemesia says:

    Hitler grew up hating them for other reasons that only his demented mind could explain.

    Wrong on the facts, Diana C, as Hitler explained in Mein Kampf: he, like all Germans (Austrians) of his era were taught not to disrespect the Jewish religion. He further explains that later, as he observed behavior of (mostly immigrant / Eastern European) Jews in Vienna, he and others including Vladimir Jabotinsky, Arthur Ruppin and Max Nordau, three of Zionism’s primary ideologues, came to consider them “degenerated.”
    A larger question is why the instant reductio ad Hitlerum, and if in tracing the reasons for that automatic reaction one realizes that “Hitler is ever-present in the media,” then you have to ask why that is so, two generations removed from those events. Why not point to present-day evil-doers in order to halt their wicked deeds, rather than dissipate moral outrage on a long-dead, impotent totemic figure?
    PS The “outbreak” of antisemitic acts in New York City was a topic of conversation on C Span this morning. One audience member who lives in the area recounted the long-simmering resentments of non-Jews in the region, over the practice of Orthodox Jews deploying their significant wealth to take over school boards and undermining the school systems that non-Jewish taxpayers are forced to subsidize. Monsey is not that far from Kyrias Joel, a Jewish city-within-a-city, that has the state’s highest rate of poverty, reliance on Medicaid, and unemployment; that makes demands on the surrounding region’s schools and other systems but pays far less than its fair share in taxes, and has assured its non-Jewish neighbors that if they challenge Jewish preferences, the Jews will take them to court.
    This is not antisemitism, this is opposition to the actions of a group that is negatively impacting the rights and quality of life of surrounding polities.
    When customary forms of opposition are curtailed, as is occurring with constraints on freedom of speech where Jews, Israel and zionism are concerned, the Toothpaste-tube rule dictates that an unpleasant eruption is inevitable.

  14. ambrit says:

    One you know how to use properly.

  15. Terry says:

    When I was 14 my dad heard some shooting going on and decided to walk over to see what was going on. A couple of hours later when it started getting dark mom said to take the car, go see what was going on and take a gun. I grabbed the .22 rifle and was heading out the door and she said “What are you doing with that, take the .3030”. Turns out it was an old friend of dads and they were just chatting. Dad didn’t even blink when he saw the rifle.
    Later that fall I dropped a deer running full out in heavy brush a good 100 yards out, right through the heart. I had been shooting for years by that point.
    Nothing like the farm life for a great education. I wish we had training programs as part of school curriculum so people could see it as the tool it is, learn to use it responsibly and not see it as something incredibly frightening. Life experiences today all too often aren’t creating the type of people we need for our Republic.

  16. vig says:

    fascinating. thanks for the link, Eadwacer.

  17. turcopolier says:

    Two hours at a range wit a competent instructor is all you need for home defens.

  18. turcopolier says:

    Elota Danan
    You are a sheep waiting to be slaughtered.

  19. turcopolier says:

    Will you think that when the knife wielder comes to your door?

  20. turcopolier says:

    You have constructed a straw man situation in which citizens are incapable of defending themselve. Do you really want to say that?

  21. Fred says:

    “… deploying their significant wealth to take over school boards and undermining the school systems…”
    I believe the Reverend Jessee Jackson made that complaint about money and minority group’s influence in his presidential race in the ’80s. Needless to say he didn’t fare to well. Tom Wolfe did a much better job on the issue in “Radical Chic & Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers”. Eddie Murphy did a wonderful persormance as Jackson back with SNL was actually relevant. https://vimeo.com/139091477
    “This is not antisemitism, this is opposition to the actions of a group that is negatively impacting the rights and quality of life of surrounding polities.”
    So taking a machete into a synagogue and attacking people with it is “opposition ot actions of a group negatively impacting rights and quality of life”? That’s a new take on things.

  22. Fred says:

    “…having firm rules regarding acceptable behavior in the building that ALL students and adults must follow.”
    Diana, Diana, when will you get with the times? Have you put all the records of suspensions and expulsions into a spreadsheet and sorted by personally identifiable factors – like race? Why you’ll be shocked to find that individuals have no agency and are not responsible for their conduct. Worse still, they are punished by race! It’s a great conclusion reached by believers of the new orthodoxy founded on cultural marxism. It is the very thing that was in place for years in Broward County Florida, where the Broward Superintendent Robert Runcie had implemented the great new idea of “restorative justice”. It’s a key component of the tragedy that unfolded at Parkland High School.
    The state put together a fine report, with suggestions like yours. Turn all schools into de-facto prisons because student’s are presumed to be inherently untrustworthy. They are also “target rich environments” for crazies who can expect massive media coverage and little resistance to their attacks. But back to the report, I suggest starting with chapter 8.
    “BCPS documented nearly 70 incidents involving Cruz in its incident-based computer system. BCPS’s disciplinary referal system (DMS) also contained nearly 55 school incidents involving Cruz.”
    California is setting the groundwork for repetition with SB 419.
    When I went to high school in Key West we had an open campus where students could leave at lunch and return to class. The losers didn’t come back, at least one bus driver could have been an inspiration for the one shown on “The Simpsons”, and the dopers liked to get high at the back on the ride in from Big Coppet Key. (Incidentally the fire chief got arrested out front one day in ’76 for selling marijuana out of his official vehicle, a great victory for the new DEA!) When the family was transfered to Naples I spent the final two years at Naples High School. It was neither open campus nor full of the same colorful characters. They did have JROTC course, which managed to teach some close order drill, had members who marched in multiple city parades and performed the flag ceremony at football games and even fielded a rifle team. There weren’t any shootings, metal detectors nor school lockdown drills. There weren’t any in Key West either.

  23. vig says:

    She, as far as the aka goes, doesn’t seem to be American, in other words she may not be sufficiently prepared to shoot or be shot. …
    You always carried to mass? Or only from a certain time on?

  24. I didn’t construct a thing. That’s what happened. I’ll add that the retired FBI agent fired only one carefully and calmly aimed shot with a revolver. He was mindful of not shooting innocents. All those other congregants pulling their pistols probably did not have the calmness of the FBI agent. They would have eventually dropped the gunman but could very well have taken out several of their fellow congregants in the process.

  25. srw says:

    If a knife wielder came to my door I would have to confront him with just what’s available as all my guns are under lock and key.

  26. Amir says:

    Especially as the knife-terrorist was professionally trained by the best in the world, the Hanukkah party attendees are lucky that he didn’t have a gun, because of strict gun laws in NYC. Anecdotes about good- vs. bad gunner in Texas church prove as much as the lack of an ex-Marine’s effectiveness proves, when the latter is solely armed with a blade in NYC.

  27. ISL says:

    My parents live in Monsey and there is also widespread talk/grievance about how the ultra-orthodox turn houses into temples in communities within walking distance, removing them from the tax base, while having large families and using the roads and other public services. Funny, how Judaism as a state-subsidized religion isn’t so popular here in the US.

  28. Leith says:

    Damn good shot it was for an old guy with white whiskers. He took that calm and careful aim even though the perp had a long gun. Looks to be about ten or eleven pews distance between Wilson and the perp, not sure what distance that equates to?
    The article mentioned he is running for County Commish, but with the name recognition he now has he should run for Congress.

  29. Diana C says:

    I have never lived near a large Jewish community. I have taught in public schools with a very few Jewish teachers, whom I did not even know were Jewish at first until I got to know them better.
    English literature from many eras is replete with negative depictions of Jews–think of Shakespeare, for example.
    So my statement is based on that personal history. The few Jewish people I knew were people I, at first, did now know were Jewish.
    What you are describing is more like, for instance, what my own Volga/Black Sea German immigrant families may have been like on first arriving here. Because they came from Russia but spoke an older German dialect, most people did no know how to “label” them. They had endured at first some of the usual distrust of foreigners and saw signs saying “No Russians Allowed.” They came to do stoop labor in the beet fields. Later that was done my Mexican migrant workers.
    The difference between their group and the Mexicans was that they encouraged their children to grow up “American.” They made sure they learned English and attended public schools through graduation, at a time when many Americans didn’t think more than an eighth-grade education was necessary.
    Our particular church was, of course, Christian; so their Christianity did no set them apart as, perhaps, Jewish people were. We did hear a sermon in German for the older people, followed by one in English for the younger people.
    So, the point that you are making, if I am right, is this: My ethnic group wanted to integrate into the larger society, while the Jewish groups you are thinking of do not.
    Now, this is what many don’t understand about the Mexican-Americans of the Southwest and West. Many in that group also do not necessarily want to integrate into American society. Many use their Spanish language as a weapon of sorts. They speak to each other in Spanish around us and pretend, in some cases, not to understand what we are saying. They also expect that we change to fit them in public schools rather than to change themselves to fit our academic culture. They seem, though there are many exceptions, not to think education is important.
    It’s why many of us are considered “racist” against them. They use more welfare than the Caucasians use, the young men cling to their “Machismo” attitudes–which often result in knife fights, etc. Young Mexican girls who become pregnant and unmarried at an early age are pampered and praised as mothers.
    Of course, of course I know that many of these Mexican Americans DO try to integrate into the larger American society. I grew up with many of these Hispanics who are now living a middle class American lifestyle.
    I could go on. If I am right about this, then you are describing another group like the Mexican Americans who want to retain their Mexican culture when you mention these Jewish groups.
    I have known only Jewish people here who live lifestyles that are mostly integrated into the larger community. The only way we notice a difference is that Friday night is important to them for religious reasons while Sunday is our religious day. I do know they avoid certain foods, but then for me–a long time vegetarian–I am different in that way also.
    Thank you for clarifying the issue for me.

  30. Diana C says:

    So, does that mean that in such an environment, every adult should have a gun handy?
    That might mean that some very good teachers would not be teaching. I do not want to seem prideful, but my students’ test scores were usually higher than other teachers’ students’ scores. I would not teach if I was expected to carry a gun, and with my near-sighted eyes, no one would want me to carry a gun.
    But, as I mentioned, I could name only a very few teachers I would have trusted with a gun in the building where I taught, where there were 1,500 students usually and only 120 adults, many of whom were office staff.
    I am just lucky, I guess, that Colorado has not yet turned entirely nut-case progressive and still values the old-fashioned idea of families with parents who expect their children to behave.
    I know there are large schools in Denver with more troublesome populations, but I think it’s telling that the schools in Colorado that have experienced anything sort of like what happened in Florida were in more affluent schools–where affluent parents often just can’t imagine their kids as having evil thoughts, or where those parents are too busy to know at all what their kids are doing.
    The Parkland case was absolutely the failure of public employees: The FBI had been warned about that kid; the adoptive mother had tried on several occasions to get the police to take him away; the school itself had tried to make authorities aware of that kid.
    I once lived and taught in a prison community. The prison systems and the school district were the organizations that employed the most people. My older son was being harassed during sixth grade by a prisoner’s son all the time. The principal was a “libtard” as you are describing the people in Fla. He kept trying to be super nice to this kid. The kid often bragged to other kids that he could get away with anything because the principal wouldn’t do anything.
    So, when I had enough of that kids bothering my kid, I called the police on him. I had tried first to talk with the principal, but he was too busy talking sports with the sixth grade teacher to come to the phone. I explained to the officer why I was upset. The officer left my house with his sirens blaring and pulled into the school and took that kid out of the classroom and warned him that if he (the officer) received any more reports of his troublesome behavior with other students, he would take him in an book him.
    The principal thought I and the officer “over reacted.” The officer told him that HE (the principal) had under reacted.
    I taught in that district and dealt with many prisoner’s kids in the classroom. My administrators often thought I was too strict and that I over reacted. The truth was, however, that they knew most of my other students were entirely on my side.

  31. Mike Wallens says:

    There is no evidence on any site that I have seen that states the Wilson, the shooter of the attacker, was ever an FBI agent.

  32. ambrit says:

    I hear you Colonel. Training is essential. Then, regular time at the range, which is a big field set up adjacent to the Camp hereabouts, to keep familiar with your firearm.
    Despite rumours to the contrary, a lot of us lefties are firm supporters of the Second Amendment. Plus, I absolutely despise the present day Democrat Party. Go figure.
    A happy and healthy New Year to you and yours and the other posters here Colonel!

  33. SAC Brat says:

    “Monsey is not that far from Kyrias Joel”
    Also not far from New Square. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Square,_New_York
    There has been a lot of friction over the years as the religious communities expanded and pushed out nonmembers.

  34. SAC Brat says:

    In Southeast Asia some of the Buddhist monks also possess firearms for protection. This tends to freak out Americans too, which seems silly.
    A few years ago when my house was blessed the visiting abbot and three monks from a local temple asked for a tour of the house. They were all very interested in my basement target range and reloading presses.
    Try using buddhist monk and pistol as search keywords for articles on the subject.

  35. Artemesia says:

    The point I apparently failed to make effectively is that there are grievances linked to actions of Jewish groups; those grievances, if not permitted to be aired and addressed, will inevitably fester and explode.
    The claim that expression of such grievances, or criticism of Jewish groups or persons is “antisemitism” is terminologically inexact — antisemitism used to mean, animus toward Jews JUST BECAUSE they are Jews. If criticism or even animus has a cause, then it is not antisemitism. It may not be pleasant, and it may not be just, but it is not antisemitism. If violence results from the expression of animus, then it’s a crime of a greater or lesser degree, but it’s still not — or should not be — “antisemitism.”
    When causes and reasons are not explored, the problem cannot be solved –the label of antisemitism is counterproductive.
    Furthermore, Jews have caused themselves to put in specially privileged categories — above even legitimate criticism. That is offensive; it’s bound to stir resentments; and it flies in the face of US Constitutional expectations.
    Listen here, as a man from Rockland County, NY explains the conflicts between Jews and other citizens of the area: @ 51 min: https://www.c-span.org/video/?467733-2/washington-journal-news-headlines-viewer-calls&playEvent
    Over the past year or so Jewish influencers have imposed increasing constraints on free speech. Whatever you think about the events in Charlottesville, it was not intended to be violent, and however offensive some speech was, it was protected speech. Yet at least one Jewish group is determined to “crush . . . and financially cripple” several of the protesters, as an example that Thou Shalt Not say things that Jewish people do not like to hear.
    That’s not only contrary to Constitutional guarantees, it, too is counterproductive: if you can’t get your point across, or air your grievance, in speech and non-violent protest, then the only recourse is violence.
    That said, imo there’s something hinky about the machete attack. I haven’t read a blow-by-blow report of how the thing happened, but how did one man get inside a house, hurt 5 men (presumably among other men), and get away in his car? How badly hurt were those who were stabbed? Does one “stab” with a machete, or slash?

  36. JK from Arkansas says:

    The fellow was not FBI. He was once a reserve deputy of the county in which the shooter, Brainison DeWall made his attempt. Also firearm was not a revolver rather it was a Sig (229/357?) semiauto with the headshot made from 12 to 15 yards.
    True he was also a CCL instructor as well as a trainer and from 1999 through 2014 owned and operated an indoor range.
    Apologies Turcopolier for the link as I’ve noted you’re not particularly fond of ’em but in my defense it’s a straightforward news-link.

  37. Well I may not have constructed a thing, but I got a few central facts dead wrong. The fellow, Jack Wilson, was not a former or retired FBI agent. He was a firearms instructor and ran a shooting range for quite a while. The most disappointing error I made was in thinking he used a revolver. The fellow said it was his Sig Sauer semiautomatic pistol. I so wanted it to be a revolver. Seems the two congregants shot by the gunmen were also part of Jack Wilson’s security team. They were alert to the possibility of danger, but the gunman got the drop on them. That does reinforce my point that it takes more than a good guy with a gun on his belt. That good guy must have the constant situational awareness and be on constant high alert to be effective. I’m all for that, but I don’t live like that. It’s draining.

  38. Eric Newhill says:

    Well, not exactly, Upstater. I’m in Western NY (came here almost 16 years ago for a career opportunity and for the thoroughbred racing incentives- one of my hobbies). I’m in the process of moving back to God’s country (AZ). I want to get away from the terrible weather, absurdly high taxes and oppressive govt. We despise Cuomo and the rest of the liberals in the state legislature. The county I live in is solid R. We just don’t have the volume of votes needed to overcome those of NYC and the ghettos of Buffalo, Rochester, etc. And Cuomo has been re-populating old towns along the Erie Canal with welfare dependent minorities from the city, furthering diluting our voice. Our Sheriff – and several others in rural counties – won’t enforce Cuomo’s anti- second amendment SAFE Act unless the violation is blatantly flaunted by bad intentioned people.

  39. vig says:

    They were alert to the possibility of danger,…
    Yes, that’s the bit I may have missed to be able understand the NYP linked video above.
    The person videotaping was alert too, somehow? Wondering, what would have caused me to take out my smart/iphone at that point in time? But yes, unusual noise may well alert me too, almost automatically. After, it takes a few seconds for the documenter.
    Texas Shooter Failed Background Check
    “Inside Every Progressive Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out”
    Twitter @Horowitz39, David Horowitz

  40. Fred says:

    “… it takes more than a good guy with a gun…”
    So if it had been a true “gun free zone” the ‘bad guy’ would have killed how many? Because he sure didn’t set out to obey the law.

  41. Another old guy says:

    As always in the chaos of initial news reports much of what is written is not accurate.
    He was not a retired FBI agent.
    He was a reserve deputy sheriff from 1980-1986.
    Some reports indicate he was a fire arms instructor.
    He fired only one shot.
    He was a small business owner for 30 years.
    He was head of the security team at the church (not a parishioner perhaps) and was obviously good at the job as he stated that he had concerns about the shooter from when he entered the church.
    I note that all 3 of the security team were standing very close to the shooter so it could be possible they were slowly moving in on him (but who knows).
    The two men killed were also members of the security team (one of them died in the act of drawing his gun and the other seemed to not really react at all). But they were not, or should not have been, acting as congregants.
    There is other info about the shooter being known to the church from many contacts, several of which were hostile. He appeared to be partially disguised (wig, heavy coat).
    I fully agree that any church of size needs security in today’s world and that security should not be part of the members of the congregation as if they are they are not going to be paying proper attention. Unfortunately one could also justify having some form of real security (not teachers) at schools as well. But the problem here is lack of resources. I am a volunteer officer for the town where I live and the police would have to add at least a dozen officers to the force to man the schools in town (a significant percentage of the total) – there is no money for that naturally.

  42. Fred, if that church was a true gun free zone, that jackass with the shotgun wouldn’t have been allowed in there. The problem is that just designating a place to be a gun free zone doesn’t make it so. You have to work at it. The dilemma is that the ultra 2A rights advocates resistance to all regulation ensures that the unfit can still obtain firearms. There has to be a middle ground.

  43. JK from Arkansas says:

    The video was occurring as is often the case in the general region as a “livestream” – you’ll see many instances of church services broadcast on local tv stations (especially during eg: flu season).
    Only the fellow sitting on the pew along the wall was “security” the fellow standing who the shooter apparently spoke to was not, however the ‘why was he there’ is explained by his having just finished handing out the communion wafers.
    I’ve noted many criticisms directed toward the security team but I’ll only address one possible – the security team as not LE and so the ‘right to pre-empt’ was unavailable (people who are properly schooled/trained understand the legal constraints).
    The murderer had indeed been ruled incompetent (mentally) in Oklahoma back in 2014 and so yes he’d have failed a background check – then again, criminals don’t generally care about the legal niceties.

  44. turcopolier says:

    JK from Arkansas
    Yes, I hope you noticed that I said “shoot BACK at the nuts.”

  45. turcopolier says:

    TTG et al
    Do you propose to search people at doors for knives and for there to be laws against carrying pocket knives as there are in the UK? Are you planning to surrender your firearms to the New Dominion of Virginia when they get around to asking for that?

  46. Fred says:

    “every adult” No. In addition I did not nor have ever used “libtard” to describe anyone. You are misinterpreting what I wrote. The failure of the police and school superintendent, school board and local police are due to ideological reasons. The FBI? The last thing needed is a federal police agency policing local communities.

  47. JK from Arkansas says:

    Yes I did.
    We’re on the same page Sir.
    Incidentally, thanks for allowing the (occasional I’m figuring) unregistered on any social media commentor to offer input.
    I’ve been reading this blog for some period just haven’t had anything to add. We’ve ‘things in common’ though as I was Navy you might disagree but I’d hope not vociferously.

  48. Eric Newhill says:

    The material errors in reporting are not the result of “chaos”. Rather, it’s a deliberate attempt to keep another failed leftist narrative alive; specifically, that good guys with guns can’t make a difference. If the good guy was an FBI agent, then he’s a special case, highly trained, etc, etc and not just an ordinary citizen. The media lies to preserve false perceptions all of the time.

  49. Eric Newhill says:

    Really? Why wouldn’t the jackass with the shot gun just walk into the church and start shooting if it was a gun free zone? BTW, it seems that the jackass was a crazy jackass and should not have a gun per federal law. Guess he didn’t care about federal law and wouldn’t care about gun free zone laws either.

  50. That’s exactly how it works at airports, courtrooms, some schools and other places serious about being gun free zones usually with metal detectors and searches. As I told Fred, unless you make the effort to create a gun free zone, you don’t have a gun free zone. Virginians can carry concealed pocket knives with blades of 3.5 inches or so, even in schools. We can open carry almost any edged weapon. I know of no proposed law to change that.
    I’d be real surprised if any general gun confiscation laws are ever passed here. Proposed yes, but passed and signed, no. I’d even be surprised if any changes are made in the current open carry laws. I doubt I’ll be surrendering any of my firearms or edged weapons. The only one that could possibly be in danger of being singled out is my M1 carbine even though I only have 10 and 15 round magazines. I think that old beauty is just as effective for mass shooting as those ugly plastic things that are in vogue these days.

  51. turcopolier says:

    You are a trusting soul.

  52. Fred says:

    You have to work at it? How, governor Northam’s gun confiscation? I won’t even bother saying good luck to you on that one.

  53. Eric, if that church or anyplace was a true gun free zone, the jackass would have been searched before entry and he would have been turned away or his shotgun confiscated. Then there would have been a jackass in a church rather than a shotgun armed jackass. Just declaring some place a gun free zone and hoping for the best is silly.
    The church chose to have a trained armed security detail and allow others to carry arms. That was a reasonable choice and worked out almost as well as keeping all guns out of the church in the first place. Both are valid approaches. There’s also the question of how to better keep jackasses and dangerous people from getting guns in the first place. No matter what we do, that will never be a 100% solution in this country.

  54. JK from Arkansas says:

    Those spaces you enumerate are precisely what the schooled firearms (in mine and all my acquaintances case, CCW or whatever the authorizing authority having jurisdiction – CHCL in the case of Arkansas) Anyway, those are the designated spaces licensed carriers know to be under either State and/or Federal oversight and so would never imagine violating the statutes regulating. In the specific cases of airports, courtrooms, federal buildings, jails and associated LEOs, and otherwise where applicable, we’d be able to, with some confidence, be able to depend on that space’s security apparatus.
    But “the big ol’ outside world” isn’t particularly well suited (or practical) to provide 24/7 *personnel protectors* for every swinging dick everywhere. And surely TTG you cannot possibly even in your wildest imaginings think (hope) such a “gun-free-world” is anything other than a pipe dream can you?
    But even if you could have you ever noticed the *more successful criminals seem to possess an uncanny knack for defeating whatever perimeter security measure[s] have been emplaced?
    Optimally, in my opinion, what any who profess such apparent regard for everyone’s health & welfare (purely altruistically in your case I’m certain) ought demand are that the laws already on the books be enforced. You familiar TTG at all with the sheer number of laws and regulations already in place – Sorry Turcopolier another link:
    Study that TTG and when I figure you’ve finished about a week from now I’ll revisit and we’ll go over your recommended improvements.

  55. vig says:

    thanks, highly appreciated. Now I see. 😉

  56. vig says:

    one can of course always substitute ideology for the obvious reality of the journalists out there. Close deadline? Bad sources? Misunderstanding? … other then: Target audience? The media you read or watch surely framed it to your expectations. Mostly? No?
    Facts are sacred, opinion is free.

  57. Eric Newhill says:

    There is no such thing as a “gun free zone”. There are only zones where govt officials with guns enforce a law that says that non-officials cannot have guns. Airports and courts are not gun free. The various LEOs in them have plenty of guns. Laws only work because there are officials with guns who are, ultimately, prepared to shoot you, if you disobey the law and refuse to comply with less than lethal redirection.

  58. Eric, according to your logic, there are no such things as speed limits on highways unless LEOs are around to enforce those limits. There’s truth in that and that was my point about enforcing gun free zones. Just posting a “no firearms allowed” sign does not make a gun free zone. It must be enforced. As an example, the Capital One Arena in DC is a gun free zone. Security personnel uses metal detectors and physical searches before every hockey game in a always sold out crowd of 20,000. The Arena prohibits all guns, knives, tasers, pepper spray and a lot of other things. This is in DC where there are near nightly shootings. A church, synagogue or mosque with a much smaller congregation than Caps fans in DC can do the same if they choose to. Or they can go the armed security route. They’re both effective. A combination of the two would be more effective. It’s all a matter of time, effort and money.

  59. Fred, yes you have to work at it. As I told Eric, hanging a “no firearms allowed” sign does not make a place a gun free zone. People have to be searched as they enter. Northam’s proposals have little to do with that. His proposal to enhance red flag laws may help keeping people like that Texas jackass in wig and trenchcoat from getting his shotgun, but that’s a long shot. There’s always some clown willing to sell/give a weapon to any other clown. I think his proposal to ban the sale of so called assault weapons will go nowhere. I’ve never seen a legal definition of an assault weapon that made sense. Would that even include a Mossberg 500 shotgun with 6 or 8 rounds of 00 buckshot? And what does a pistol grip stock have to do with the lethality of a weapon?

  60. JK, who said anything about making “the big ol’ outside world” into a gun free zone? It only works in a place where access can be controlled and you are willing to make the effort to control that access. I don’t want a gun free world. I own over a dozen myself, some purely for aesthetic and historical reasons. I like them and appreciate them. I don’t carry openly or concealed, but am prepared for home defense, although my first line of defense are several edged weapons. I don’t like angry, demented or irresponsible people having access to weapons any more than I like drunk drivers. I agree with you on one thing. Existing laws against those thinks should be better enforced.

  61. Fred says:

    “Red flag laws”? You mean an anonymous accusation will trigger an investigation and confiscation? Kind of like “hate speech” gets one banned from the social media, or #metoo gets one disemployed as happened to Senator Franken and others – but not Governor Northam or the Lt. Governor? I won’t even point out the uncosntitutional nature of all such “red flag” laws.
    “There’s always some clown willing to sell/give a weapon to any other clown.” Yeah, and zero red flag laws are going to stop that though actual policiing would have an effect, as did Rudy Guliani’s very controversial “stop and frisk” policy, the incarceration – after trial by jury – of accused criminals had in NYC.

  62. Fred says:

    “They’re both effective.”
    Ah, no. The premeditated murderer is not stopped by signs or metal detectors. “This is in DC where there are near nightly shootings.” Perhaps focussing on the actual criminals would be more effective. Where’s the enhanced police investigations in DC and which politicians are being held accountable for their multiple years long failure of criminal coddling policies?

  63. JK from Arkansas says:

    You TTG by any chance reflect on what you’ve just posted?
    “This is in DC where there are near nightly shootings”?

  64. JK, that’s just the way it is in DC and the violent crime rate is only half of what it was in the early and mid 90s. I’m surprised you haven’t heard about it.

  65. optimax says:

    The following clip is of the only person on the news to mention the fact that the people attacking and harassing the Hasidic Jews in NY are all African Americans–mostly young males but a few women too. The Africans Americans don’t like the Jews buying the houses in their neighborhood and taking it over. If you watch enough videos of these attacks, you can tell they think it’s fun to mess with people they see as easy marks. Still, some in the media and other influential race baiters blame white supremacy and/or President Trump for the attacks. Contrary to the facts, they promote the false narrative that all the problems experienced by African Americans–disproportionately high levels of poverty and violent behavior– are due to white oppression. Young African Americans are also attacking older Asians in San Francisco. Something is wrong and we will never solve it by ignoring the problem.

  66. JK from Arkansas says:

    Review TTG the comment posted above on the timestamp 30 December 2019 at 08:21 PM whereon the commentor includes this genius sentence:
    “What this illustrates is the value of dedicated, trained guard personnel in churches, in schools and in other public places.”
    Recognize the implications thereon TTG?
    “In other public places” would seem to cover quite a bit of territory wouldn’t you agree, almost perhaps to include “the big ol’ outside world”?
    So what’s your recommendation, put a TSA person alongside each and every person who’s not a TSA person in their every instance?
    As I said above TTG, it isn’t practical.
    And besides TTG, Red Teams have amply demonstrated TSA’s regularly occurring ineptitude.
    But then if you’ve another alternate for who is to watch the henhouse …
    I am though TTG, in the end “happy” we’re agreeing enforcing existing law being the best way of illustrating how the cow eats the cabbage but unfortunately, given how New Yorks shown how its synagogues gatherers have to simply wait the minutes when seconds are counting and Virginia’s solution is to reinforce legislation against the law-abiding I fear we’re sailing against the prevailing wind.
    Oh wow TTG it’s just suddenly dawned on me who may best function as the first line of defense – Let’s put all the legislators up to act as human shields!

  67. JK from Arkansas says:

    Well optimax it’s been sometime coming. Here’s Henry Louis Gates:
    “While anti-Semitism is generally on the wane in this country, it has been on the rise among black Americans. A recent survey finds not only that blacks are twice as likely as whites to hold anti-Semitic views but — significantly — that it is among the younger and more educated blacks that anti-Semitism is most pronounced.”
    Writing in 1992! Unfortunately (or not) Mr Gates’ analysis appears in the NYT which, recognizing my IP quickly reacts to bar my access.
    Maybe you can have worse luck than myself:

  68. optimax says:

    Somehow the attackers do not appear educated to me. Information has been spread about Jews being involved in the slave trade, which I’m sure is being taught in college.. I remember back in the 60s and 70s Blacks in Brooklyn protesting the deplorable conditions of their Jewish owned tenements. Of course, the Amish wouldn’t fair any better if they turned urbanites or if the gomint built housing projects next to their farms in the name of diversity.
    No luck for me reading the NYT.

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