Romania’s Constitutional Court annulled the entire presidential election — even as a runoff vote was under way — throwing the process into upheaval after a Moscow-friendly, far-right candidate won the first round. The court ruling on December 6 was followed by an announcement from Romanian prosecutors that a probe into alleged computer-related crimes has been launched amid allegations of Russian influence that Romanian intelligence services said sparked the shock first-round victory of Calin Georgescu.
Experts said is was unclear after the court decision if all the candidates are going to be allowed to re-register for the new vote, or if Georgescu could be disqualified following revelations of Moscow’s support for him.
Catalin Pop, a lawyer specializing in the Constitutional Court, told RFE/RL that the ruling was “definitive and binding,” and that the court the court’s reasoning will most likely “be similar” to what was used in the case of Diana Sosoaca, meaning Georgescu could be ruled out of the new election. Sosoaca was ruled out by the court in October prior to the first round of voting for promoting extremist and anti-Semitic views, while also pushing ideas against the democratic values and EU membership that are at the root of Romania’s constitution.
In its ruling, the Constitutional Court said the electoral process for the election “will be resumed in its entirety, with the government to establish a new date for the election of the president of Romania, as well as a new calendar program for carrying out the necessary actions.”
President Klaus Iohannis, whose term was scheduled to end on December 21, said he would stay in his post until a successor can be elected. “When the new president takes the oath, I will leave here,” Iohannis said in a statement on December 6. Iohannis is expected to appoint a prime minister to begin forming a government from the parliament that was elected on December 1. The new government will choose the date of the new election, he said.
Georgescu’s victory sent shock waves across the West after Romania’s Supreme Council of National Defense (CSAT) declassified documents said to prove a massive, Moscow-orchestrated cybercampaign in his favor on TikTok that largely went under the radar of Romanian authorities. Georgescu was to face off in a runoff vote on December 8 against pro-European centrist candidate Elena Lasconi.
At the time of the court’s announcement, voting had already begun in the large Romanian diaspora around the world, with around 33,000 said to have cast their ballots. In a statement to Romanian television station Realitatea, Georgescu called the court ruling an “official coup,” evidence of what he said was a corrupt system showing its face.
The runoff has been seen as a referendum on the NATO and EU member’s future course amid accusations of Russian meddling that brought thousands of Romanians to the streets in support of the country’s place in the Euro-Atlantic community. Georgescu had appeared as a favorite to win the runoff, but was passed by Lasconi in the latest opinion poll after CSAT on December 4 declassified documents revealing the country was the target of an “aggressive hybrid Russian action” that led to the far-right candidate’s shock victory in the first round.
https://www.rferl.org/a/lasconi-georgescu-runoff-romania/33228897.html
Comment: So it looks like a do over for both rounds of the election. And the apparent winner of the first round, Calin Georgescu, will most likely be disqualified from running. How can this happen? The Constitutional Court ruled that Romanian election laws were broken. The massive online campaign to push Georgescu’s candidacy was illegal. Such a campaign is not illegal under US law. We may not like it, but it is not illegal. Under Romanian election law Georgescu was obligated to disclose money spent on his behalf. He declared he spent nothing and he may have been right. But the money was spent by somebody on his behalf. That jeopardizes his continued candidacy. He may also be charged with treason because it looks like Russia was doing the spending on Georgescu’s behalf. I haven’t read anything about Georgescu colluding with Russia, just benefiting from the Russian IO campaign. I don’t think any of that is illegal under US election law. However, two of the main pro-Russian politicians that have backed Georgescu in his presidential bid, have now fled the country for Doha.
The very idea of canceling an election because of the probable winner sounds like pure bullshit to me, but Romanian law is clearly different from US law. Perhaps it is more in tune with the perils of the digital age and the danger of an aggressive IO campaign originating from outside the country.
I first wrote about IO and elections back in 2016 with “The Russian Concept of Reflexive Control.” A lot of people went into high dungeon when I suggested such things were possible… or suggested Russia could possible do such things. I thought it was an elegant information operation and even declared, “Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, you magnificent bastard, I salute you.” I certainly saw nothing illegal about it, but maybe the effectiveness of such operations now calls for a relook at our election laws.
TTG
https://www.presidency.ro/ro/media/comunicate-de-presa/comunicat-de-presa1733327193 (the declassified intelligence documents used by the Romanian court to reach the decision to annul the election)
https://www.rferl.org/a/romania-russia-election-interference-tiktok/33227010.html
https://www.rferl.org/a/romania-election-scandal-tiktok-bogdan-peschir-georgescu/33229674.html
https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2016/12/the-russian-concept-of-reflexive-control-ttg.html. (my original post on Russian IO targeting the 2016 election)
P.S. – Speaking of things Romanian, it’s been twenty years since Gary Brolsma, then a young, US nerd posted a hilarious video based on the a song by a Moldovan Eurodisco song “Dragostea din tei.” It became known as the Numa Numa Song. We were alerted to the video while chasing Russian hackers across IRC channels. Even our adversaries knew a good thing when they saw one. Here’s Gary in all his nerd glory.
Massive..? Only in the propaganda stories. It’s like all the BS about Trump and Russia. We are just seen a coup in progress.
A simple reason for why it’s BS. – ” But the money was spent by somebody on his behalf.”
So all Russia has to do is support the Presidential candidates they do not want elected – and voila those candidates are banned.
We better get prepared for new bans come the next round unless it’s the right candidates elected. Then is’s all right.
Poul,
Russia and any other country, cabal or syndicate can advocate for whatever candidate in our elections they want. They can spend whatever they want or use all the black propaganda they want. It’s not illegal under our laws. If a candidate willing accepts that aid and cooperates in those efforts, he puts himself in legal jeopardy.
What Romania has done is rule such foreign intervention in her elections is illegal. She has taken action (cancel the results of this election) to ensure that such foreign intervention is not rewarded with success. Georgescu does not face legal jeopardy because of the foreign intervention. He failed to declare the funds spent on his behalf whether he spent them (he said he spent nothing) or someone else spent them on his behalf. That’s Romanian law. US law is quite different. Our elections are awash in dark money and it’s all perfectly legal.
TTG,
If the US cancels elections every time Israel helps someone get elected you are going to have a lot of cancelled elections.
James,
There is no legal process in the US to nullify a presidential election.
ttg: “He failed to declare the funds spent on his behalf whether he spent them (he said he spent nothing) or someone else spent them on his behalf.”
Hmmmm. The criteria that you mention “someone else spent them on his behalf” requires some degree of collusion for it to make any sense, does it not?
After all, it is axiomatic that Georgescu would be unable to declare the funds of Twitter campaigns that he is unaware of.
Poul’s point is therefore quite appropriate: the Russians can disqualify any candidate by putting out “supportive” Twitter ads without that candidate’s knowledge. Once their actions (and, to stress, it would be their actions alone) become known then said candidate would fall afoul of failing to declare something that he is not responsible for and has no knowledge of.
Yeah, Right,
Any disqualification would depend on prosecutors proving Georgescu was aware and involved in the campaign. Georgescu will have to maintain that he was clueless to all this.
And the prosecutors will be able to uncover the evidence that will “prove” this to the satisfaction of the judge between now and the re-run of the election?
And in unrelated news: flying pigs were reported over Bucharest, citizens are advised to carry umbrellas.
Yeah, Right,
The date for the re-run of the election has not been set yet. The investigation seems to be moving at a fast pace. Houses have already been raided “in connection with crimes of voter corruption, money laundering, computer forgery.” Unlike in the US, there are numerous EU and Romanian laws that address election interference by foreign actors.
TTG: “Unlike in the US, there are numerous EU and Romanian laws that address election interference by foreign actors.”
Yet the article says that a Romanian court is ruling on “election interference” on TikTok.
TikTok is not a Romanian social network platform. It is – without question – a foreign media platform, and there would not be a single Romanian voter who is unaware of that fact.
So the Russians pay for ad space on TikTok?
Big whoopie.
Those ads relate to who the Russians do/don’t like in the Romanian elections?
Big whoopie.
The Russians do that because they expect that at least some Romanian voters will see those ads?
Big whoopie.
How is that in any way different to CNN running an “investigation” that is critical/supportive of Georgescu?
How is that in any way different to an “expose” on (say) the Independent or the Times of London that supports Georgescu or lambasts his likely presidential opponents?
I get the idea that if the Russians were running an information campaign INSIDE Romania by (say) bribing reporters or influencing editorial boards.
But – again – TikTok is not a Romanian company. It is not domiciled inside Romania.
If Romanians want to go on the Internet and look at TikTok videos then good luck to them, but I fail to see why that could – or should – be used to invalidate an election result.
I mean, honestly, nobody in Romania has the slightest ability to tell TikTok what it can or can’t have on its platform, and to my mind the only sensible ruling that a Romanian court could make is to say “What the Russians post on TikTok is outside our jurisdiction”
TTG, remember a movie called “Absence of Malice”?? Paul Newmans character gets even with a scheming politician and his media crew by making it look like they have taken bribes.
You of all people would know how easy it is to generate fake Russian IP addresses. Sure someone was interfering – probably us At least that is what “Cui Bono” indicates.
walrus,
The TikTok campaign in Romania took a fairly unknown candidate and catapulted him to win the first round in the election. The “Cui Bono” indicates Russia was behind the campaign.
TTG,
The voters didn’t exercise their right to vote, Russia Russia Russia made them do it! With a TikTok video campaign.
Save us Romanian judges! “The people” can’t be trusted to vote the way they are told. LOL Russia did it again. Thank goodness they never use that creativity on the battlefield or they might actually win a war. Speaking of winning, how soon before Zelensky has re-captured all that territory?
Fred,
“How soon before Zelensky has re-captured all that territory?”
Probably well before Putin disappears the idea of an independent Ukraine.
TTG,
So not Ukrainian elections for how many more years?
TTG: “The TikTok campaign in Romania took a fairly unknown candidate and catapulted him to win the first round in the election. The “Cui Bono” indicates Russia was behind the campaign.”
That’s not the important point here.
What is important is that nullifying the vote WITHOUT also disqualifying Georgescu is pointless, because the odds are very good that he will simply get more votes than before from voters who are disgusted with the court.
The Russians surreptitiously supported Georgescu? Shame on them.
But what, exactly, does that have to do with Georgescu himself?
Was he conspiring with the Russians?
Was he even aware that the Russians were doing this?
Nothing in the article you quote suggests that either has been demonstrated, or even alleged.
So do-over the election, but with the same cast of characters.
But this? This is exactly what Georgescu suggests: a coup.
Yeah, Right,
Valid points and questions. Georgescu has not yet been disqualified. The disqualifier would be based on financial disclosure, not the Russian IO campaign which appears to be far more involved than Russian efforts in our 2016 election..
TTG: ” not the Russian IO campaign which appears to be far more involved than Russian efforts in our 2016 election..”
Again, I fail to see why you are getting all hot and bothered by this.
TikTok is not a Romanian company. If the Russians want to buy ads or create TikTok memes on any topic they like then they are perfectly entitled to do so.
If some of those memes / ads / campaigns / whatever relate to *this* Romanian politician’s electoral prospects or *that* American presidential candidate then, again, the Russians are perfectly entitled to do so on TikTok.
There is an extra-territorial aspect of this that you appear to be completely blind to.
The Russians are NOT bribing Romanian TV reporters to slant the news in their preferred direction. They are NOT using their influence to affect the editorial content of Romanian newspapers.
(Both of which I would agree falls within the legal jurisdiction of a Romanian court).
They are putting shit up on TikTok, and nobody – but nobody – forces anyone in Romania or in the USA to go look at TikTok.
Nobody.
This entire episode is the most nonsensical example of people running around with their hair on fire because things aren’t going their way.
Walrus,
Yes, some of us still remember the Alpha bank hoax.
This will be an interesting test case as the things don’t add up. It is quite possible that the Constitutional Court overstepped because there is no evidence (none was cited in the decision) that Georgescu was involved in the TikTok campaign in any way. So even the annulment is questionable, but a ban against Georgescu may trigger a constitutional crisis, as it would likely result in a lawsuit in European court.
Previous president Iohannis is definitely breaking the law as in situations like this the head (Speaker) of the Senate is supposed to serve as the acting president. There is no provision for the outgoing president to remain in office beyond the end of their term.
The situation looks very much like the ruling party is trying to hold onto power by any means necessary. Parliamentary elections saw the ruling coalition lose seats and majority in both houses. They may be able to cobble another together by bringing in the minority parties (Hungarians, etc). Their presidential candidate (current PM) did not make it into the runoff, he finished 3rd.
So we have a similar situation to most of Europe, ruling neo-liberal parties are in decline, but are trying to hold on to power. In France this already triggered a constitutional crisis, Germany has had to call for early elections, now Romania. A number of other countries have upcoming elections as well, so this trend is likely to continue.
voislav,
I’m not at all convinced Georgescu was involved in the TikTok campaign. That has to be proven one way or the other. What the Constitutional Court did was impose a legal cost on such a foreign effort to influence the election. This augments whatever technical efforts can be taken to thwart such efforts.
The trend across Europe and in Romania towards the success of more nationalist candidates than the old order is real, but is separate from organized foreign efforts to determine the outcome of elections through IO and black propaganda campaigns.
I get where you are coming from, but the circumstances around this decision make it look like “election interference” is just an excuse to redo an election where outcome of the first round was unfavourable to the ruling party.
The decision is very ad hoc, the court invalidated the election but didn’t define what constitutes election interference and what are the thresholds that would trigger election invalidation. I suspect it’s because these same courts tolerate media (including print and TV with much wider reach than social media) shilling for their owner’s preferred party, so clear rules would make every election “influenced”.
Even Georgescu’s opponent in the second round Elena Lasconi is opposing this move. She was likely to win the runoff because Georgescu has limited upside over his 23% first round vote due to his questionable views (doesn’t believe in Moon landing, supports WWII fascist government etc.). So annulment is solely for the benefit of the ruling party, who will be extra careful to make sure their candidate makes it on the second try.
TTG: “I’m not at all convinced Georgescu was involved in the TikTok campaign”
Then you have just validated Poul’s earlier post.
As in: the Russians can disqualify any Romanian presidential candidate by funding a campaign in “support” of that candidate without his knowledge.
The candidate will to fail to “disclose” spending that he is neither responsible for nor aware of and this results in him being disqualified from standing for election.
A neat trick, if you think it through.
TTG – Just seen that Berletic has taken that concept of “Reflexive Control” a whole lot further. “Control of the Information Space” he calls it, and shows how that can be integrated with economic measures (sanctions), proxy warfare and diplomatic pressure to achieve the desired objective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcN2aZgr8Yg&ab_channel=TheNewAtlas
A tour de force. I had no idea Berletic was into this sort of stuff. Thought he was diligently counting weapons stocks and examining surge capacity.
But as you remark, all this is scarcely new. Craig Murray, in that article on the destruction of Syria I submitted a link to before that destruction became evident, throws in a reference to us doing in Afghanistan what’s done today, and that’s nearly two centuries ago.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2024/12/the-end-of-pluralism-in-the-middle-east/
Must say, I rebel furiously against the whole notion of “Control of the Information Space”. Are we no more than passive recipients of whatever this or that set of politicians chooses to feed us? Just get at the facts and let us make up our own minds on those. It’s nevertheless something to be aware of. What were Henry VIII’s efforts to wrest control away from Rome but a man saying “I’ll control the information space here, thank you very much.” To take it up to date the Georgians, who are no fools, are fighting tooth and nail to gain control of theirs right now. They want to do FARA too.
And it can backfire disastrously. Saw that in ’22. The politicians and press were so successful in whipping up our European proxy war fever that they’re now stuck with it. The poor saps have information controlled themselves, and us with them, into a corner it’s going to be very difficult to get out of.
………………..
On a personal note, I saw Berletic putting up a horrific video I recollect from way back. One of the sanctions ghouls, Dana Stroul, coolly explaining how one destroys a country. If Trump manages to throw that sort of twisted thinking into the waste paper basket he’ll be doing us all a service. But I doubt he will. The Dana Strouls of this world will always find gainful employment somewhere.
EO,
Journ-o-list: Control of the information space by journalists coordinating stories in the formerly main stream media. Project Mockingbird? ‘Merica, ah, NATO, would never do such a thing in Rumania.
“sanctions ghouls” Boris Johnson? Naw, UK nevah do wrong. USA USA USA blame USA
Fred – seems neither of us are fans of Boris Johnson. We are not unusual in that respect. But underlying the question of Mr Johnson’s activities there’s the question of the relationship between our administration and yours.
That’s usually termed the “Special Relationship”. It’s complicated, that relationship between the US and the UK.
There’s no doubt that HMG was involved in the preparation of the Steele dossier, as its actions after the release of that dossier showed. Only the very credulous, or the very unobservant, can maintain that the Steele dossier was a private venture on the part of Dearlove and Steele that HMG knew nothing about.
But that work was done in concert with US agencies. How does one define an attack on a US President, Trump, carried out by both UK and US agencies? Interference in the domestic affairs of a foreign power? Or cooperation with a friendly faction within the US that happened to be one of the factions opposed to the US President.
However one defines it, it’s a close relationship of some sort, that relationship between the UK and the US. Very close. It was best described at a meeting in London between the heads of MI6 and CIA.
” MI6 chief Richard Moore is sharing a stage with CIA chief Bill Burns for the first time. Moore says UK and US decide between them who should carry out certain operations using a “best athlete model” (whoever is best for the job)”
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/cia-mi6-chiefs-praise-ukraines-kursk-invasion-bringing-war-ordinary-russians
Obviously, you’re “best athlete” when it comes to the military side of things, on account of you have a functioning military and we don’t. We tend to be “best athletes” when it comes to atrocity theatre or covert raids on nuclear power stations.
But whoever does what we work in concert, so you can never really tell whether any particular bit of wickedness is down to you or down to us.
I think the legal position, when two parties conspire together to commit crimes, is that both parties are guilty no matter which party actually does the deed. So we’re guilty of the crimes of the Biden administration and you’re guilty of ours. Working in concert means just that.
,
EO,
I agree that Dearlove and HMG most likely knew what Steele was up to, but I don’t see any evidence that it went beyond that.
TTG – not sure about Dearlove. Behind that grave imposing demeanour he could be a bit mischievous. I remember thinking so when I submitted a comment on that way back.
https://turcopolier.com/attorney-michael-sussmanns-criminal-trial-begins-related-to-the-2016-presidential-campaign/#comments
So the people of Romania have no agency. Like zombies they just vote for whoever Russia wants them to. Seems like a familiar meme. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it somewhere before.
The Romanian legal process behind this is not clear from what I can see. Some gang – or court if you prefer – decides without a thorough investigation or trial, that something unsavory happened, invoking the boogie man Russia, and then they overturn an election. That is banana republic type behavior.
Or maybe Romanians are sick and tired of the usual batch of candidates representing the usual corrupt system and, therefore, voted for an outsider. Then the usual corrupt system appeals to the buddies in their network to apply law fare to set things straight – for themselves. That also somehow sounds familiar.
Eric Newhill,
You must know advertising/propaganda/IO works in shaping people’s behavior. If it didn’t, corporations and parties wouldn’t spend millions doing it. Some countries restrict political campaigning to a certain time frame among their own parties and candidates. Many restrict foreign spending in political campaigns. Restricting foreign campaigning and especially black propaganda IO campaigning should not be that controversial.
TTG,
So should Russia ban CNN? Should China ban its citizens from reading the New York Times … even when studying in the US?
James,
Russia did ban CNN and many other Western broadcasts. Russia also severely restricts social media originating from outside Russia control.
TTG,
You are, with respect, ducking my question of whether Russia *should* do these things … and by extension my question of whether we really want to be emulating Russia. If we emulate Russia on this key issue, what is the difference between us and them?
James,
Controlling the information space from foreign influence is perfectly in line with Russian information confrontation doctrine. They realize that the minds and attitudes of the Russian people are a target for Western influence and take seriously the task of shielding Russian minds and attitudes from those Western influences. It’s a vital part of defending the motherland.
I think we can use some of that thinking. We should protect ourselves from malevolent foreign information campaigns, primarily through education. Unfortunately, our education system currently does a poor job of educating our youth in civics and history. Exposing foreign influence operations and even shutting off/regulating certain foreign media vectors involved in those influence operations is also necessary. Is this emulating Russia? I suppose it is. I would still stack up the freedom of our information space to that of Russia, China or most any other country any day.
Restricting foreign campaigning and especially black propaganda IO campaigning should not be that controversial.
In light of Eric’s mirror sympathy for the Romanian’s stolen election, I wonder: can a Russian IO campaign ever be as effective as inner American campaigns, not least those led by marketing naturals?
I did admittedly wonder as in 2016. Whatever was offered as evidence of the “foreign” Russian campaign IO was dwarfed by inner genuinely American support for the self-marketing master & his supporters. Putin & Russia still have a lot to learn. 😉
https://tinyurl.com/American-S-Markteing
The Russians don’t need a propaganda campaign against the West, LeaNder. Nor the Chinese, nor anyone else we are instructed to hate. They need say nothing. We damn ourselves quite comprehensively by what we support and give assistance to. (Gaza. Set to 1 hr 2 mins)
https://youtu.be/OgEgHVtRbg4?t=3735
That’s what your country and mine are supporting. And the West as a whole. What worse could they say about us?
*grin*/LOL, yes splendid Albionite, the turcopolier crowd may indeed need to be alerted to this & the Kraut’s more generally speaking missing empathy. Not only that, they also handicapped in more or less helpless virtue signaling, or the appropriate Wokeness, maybe?
TTG,
Yes, I know all about it, but I’m cynical. Each candidate is implementing an IO (aka = spewing BS). Apparently, the pro-Georgescu BS resonated much better w/ the people. It’s what they want. You – and the court – are saying that the Russians understand the social psychology of the Romanians better than the other candidates. I’m just tacking on the reasonable follow-on that the existing power structure fears whatever messaging was successful against them and are trying to silence it; which is very dictator-esque.
Even if the approach relied more heavily on negative messaging against Georgescu’s opponents rather than positive messages about Georgescu (and I have no idea if that was the case), it still resonated in a big way – meaning the people were predisposed to absorbing and integrating the info into their world view because they were already dissatisfied with the the current state of things. If that messaging is way off-base, then the incumbent power party (or parties) should sit down on the Romanian version of Joe Rogan and make their case.
You don’t just invalidate an election b/c one candidate’s BS is perceived as better than the others. That is antithetical to the concept of campaigning and elections – might as well just cancel them and have the court appoint someone. And, obviously, it raises serious questions as to who gets to decide what is acceptable BS and what isn’t. I don’t know anything about Romanian law, but I have a feeling that this probably violates the spirit of it, if not the letter.
Eric Newhill,
The Constitutional Court annulled the election because of foreign interference, not because one candidate’s campaign BS was better than the other’s. The pro-Georgescu BS was orchestrated by a foreign power (Russia) not the Georgescu political machine. He claims he spent nothing on the campaign, a claim that may get him in trouble with the court.
TTG,
Goergescu was open about wanting a closer relationship with Russia. He didn’t hide that. NATO – including Blinken – have been making statements about how a guy with such a platform is just too damn dangerous.
As others here have said, it would be pretty easy for some NATO fanatics to fund some Tik Tok vids and then cock up some intelligence report about how Russia was behind an extremely influential Tik Tok IO to sway the voters of Romania. I’m surprised the report didn’t include Georgescu attempting to obtain “yellow cake” Uranium from Niger.
And I disagree with your rebuttal to my point about Georgescu’s BS being better than his opponents’. It really doesn’t matter who funded it, the people still responded positively. It resonated with the people much more deeply – assuming the Tik Tok vids had a material impact on the voting, which hasn’t been proven any more than our own deep state’s assertion that Russia influenced the US 2016 election.
Seriously, how many Romanian adults are even watching Tik Tok vids, let alone making major decisions based off the content? But who knows? maybe Romania is populated with a huge proportion of mentally immature adults that are hypnotized by an ap designed for adolescents.
And yes, I understand what you are saying about the Romanian law; i.e. foreign funding of campaign messages = illegal – as least that is what non-Romanians who are also not lawyers are saying. Now when is the investigation into the other candidates’ IO funded by NATO partners going to occur?
Eric: “It really doesn’t matter who funded it, the people still responded positively.”
I agree that this is a very important point, and is the reason why the prosecutors want Georgescu disqualified from the re-run election.
But I think it pretty reasonable to assume that very many voters – including many who didn’t vote for him first time around – are mighty offended at the way in which the court has treated them with such disrespect, if not outright contempt.
If he is allowed to stand again then I suspect his vote will go up considerably, because what better way for the voting public to signal “f**k you” to the deep state that treated them like useful idiots.
Yeah, Right,
“what better way for the voting public to signal “f**k you” to the deep state that treated them like useful idiots.”
You make a good point. Now that Romanian voters know how Russia treated them as useful idiots with their IO campaign, they may vote accordingly.
I’m genuinely curious why you think that an IO campaign on TikTok in favor of Georgescu amounts to foreign interference in Romanian internal politics.
In your opinion would there be a single Romanian Internet user who is under the mistaken impression that when they visit TikTok they are visiting a Romanian-based social media platform?
Would there – and again, I’m genuinely curious to read your opinion – be a single one of those Romanians who would be unaware that when they go onto TikTok they are going somewhere Outside of Romania for their information/amusement/titillation?
The entire argument seems to me to be no different in principle or practice to a Romanian tuning into Voice of America or Radio Free Europe back in the bad old days – certainly such a person is being subjected to an “IO campaign”, but they are doing so willingly and knowingly.
TikTok isn’t Romanian. It is being beamed into Romania from the outside world and nobody – but nobody – is making a single, solitary Romanian go onto that web site to have their minds molded by Doctor Evil.
I just find this entire story to be beyond bizarre, because its core conceit is that Romanian law has jurisdiction outside the borders of the state of Romania.
TTG: “Now that Romanian voters know how Russia treated them as useful idiots with their IO campaign, they may vote accordingly”
Well, the Romanian voters who look at TikTok, anyway. How many is that, I wonder?
I don’t doubt for a second that the vast majority fall outside that category, yet they have just seen their vote thrown out the window by a court that holds their voting in complete and utter contempt.
I would bet good money that the number of Romanian voters who go to the re-run ballot booth and say “Grrrrrr, I’m gonna punish Georgescu for all the trouble he has caused me” is, oh, being charitable here, less than the number of fingers on your right hand.
Yeah, Right,
TikTok isn’t the problem. It’s the organized and well funded efforts to push Georgescu that comprises the election interference. That, in itself, is not Georgescu’s problem or fault. It’s the failure to declare funding that may get him into trouble with the Constitutional Court.
TTG: “It’s the organized and well funded efforts to push Georgescu that comprises the election interference. ”
That is a trite comment, TTG.
The article itself speaks of nothing but ….. wait for it…. wait for it…. TikTok videos.
I don’t care how “well funded” or how “organized” the Russian campaign on TikTok was, the fact remains that it was on…. TikTok.
And TikTok is not a Romanian company. It is not domiciled inside Romania.
The complaint about Russian “election interference” is therefore disingenuous in the extreme.
I mean, honestly, if CNN or 60 Minutes or Elon Musk’s Twitter Account were to run stories day after day after day exorating Georgescu as a Putin Puppet then that would – would it not? – be just as much examples of “election interference” in Romanian internal politics?
Would they not represent the same grounds for invalidating an election result where Georgescu got far less votes than expected?
This never gets old: a country’s courts only have jurisdiction within its own territory, and by invalidating an election result BASED UPON what is being said about a candidate IN A FOREIGN MEDIA OUTLET is an example of a court acting extra-territorially.
I get that foreign interference within domestic Romanian media outlets would be something that a Romanian court can have something to say.
I get that.
But a Romanian court has no business whatsoever wagging its finger over what some damn foreigners have to so say in some f**k-awful foreign social media platform.
I mean, honestly, I don’t get this feigned innocence that you are displaying here: it should be obvious that the reason WHY the court has intervened is because The Wrong Candidate Won The Election, and all this talk about dastardly TikTok videos is just the thin gruel that they are feeding up to excuse WHY the court has to step in to ensure that The Wrong Candidate Doesn’t Get To Become President.
Everything else is just handwringing and finger-pointing because that, surely, is the core issue here.
“Restricting foreign campaigning and especially black propaganda IO campaigning should not be that controversial.”
This is not a case of “foreign campaigning” taking place INSIDE Romania. The dastardly Russians are not bribing Romanian TV talkshow hosts into mouthing their propaganda. They aren’t conniving with Romanian newspaper owners to shape the content of editorials.
This is related to TikTok, and it may shock you but TikTok isn’t a Romanian company and it isn’t domiciled inside Romania.
It is a foreign source of information for Romanians, and the idea that a Romanian election can be invalidated BECAUSE Romanians decide to reach outside the country for their information or amusement is…. beyond bizarre.
Poul posed this question at the beginning, and nobody has proved a convincing counter: if what Russia does on TikTok can invalidate a Romanian election then the RUSSIANS (or, indeed, any foreign government) can invalidate the electoral prospects of any Romanian presidential candidate by running a massive ad campaign on TikTok in “support” of that candidate.
I mean, honestly, there is now meant to be a re-run of the election. How – exactly – is this Romanian court going to prevent the Russians from simply doing-over this “IO campaign” on TikTok all over again, thereby invalidating that re-run election all over again?
YR,
IMO, You actually just made a really good point about Tik Tok not being Romanian. What if Russian TV or radio had shows that favored Georescu? What if Time Magazine wrote a glowing piece on him? What if Romanians then accessed these sources? A Romanian is in an airport and sees the favorable article in Time sitting on the news stand; there, on the cover, a big glowing halo around Georescu’s head and some bold and splendid one liner about him.
Can Romanians really be completely sequestered during an election cycle?
Eric Newhill,
A targeted, covert operation to influence an election is far different than a foreign nation’s media openly expressing their druthers.
TTG,
Really?
Media, foreign or domestic – no difference as media has no borders these days – would never deliberately try to influence anyone’s thinking? Are you actually trying that as an argument?
Eric Newhill,
Media, foreign and domestic, does deliberately try to influence their audience’s thinking. Even though the distinction between reporting and opinion is severely blurred, it’s still apparent who is trying to do the influencing. These covert IO campaigns deliberately obfuscate the messenger.
“A targeted, covert operation to influence an election”
How many of those has the U.S. made?
From what I have read, a lot.
Am I right or wrong?
Keith Harbaugh,
Yes, we’ve done it. The most blatant example which didn’t influence an election, but overthrew a legitimate election was operation PB FORTUNE, our covert operation to overthrow the Guatemalan government in 1954. The armed threat fizzled, but the coup was brought to fruition through a CIA information operation, although it wasn’t called IO at the time.
TTG,
RFE/RL influencing elections bad, ops good? That’s hilarious.
TTG,
“These covert IO campaigns deliberately obfuscate the messenger”
So what?
Do you have any scientific evidence concerning under which, if any, circumstances knowing the messenger impacts the rate and depth of absorption of an IO?
I would guess that a coordinated news media IO would be more persuasive to voters than an ap, like an anonymous Tik Tok, that appeals mostly to adolescents
Eric Newhill,
The messenger is a critical aspect of PSYOPS. It’s been that way as long as I can remember. And isn’t that the whole point of media influencers?
TikTok users skew a lot older than adolescents. About 68% of users are 18 to 34 years old. I thought it was primarily a teenybopper scene before looking into it.
TTG: “A targeted, covert operation to influence an election is far different than a foreign nation’s media openly expressing their druthers.”
How, exactly, is it any different?
You keep claiming that it is”covert” ye there it is, bold as brass, on the pages of TikTok..
Not very “covert”, if you ask me, and certainly no more “covert” than the tendency of almost all western MSM to march in lockstep on any number of geopolitical issues.
They match shoulder-to-shoulder,and they all seem to volte-face in suspicious unison.
Yeah, Right,
Covert means the perpetrators true identity is hidden. A million euros bought the bulk of those TikTok posts and reposts. Some of those paid posters didn’t have a clue who Georgescu was and have since expressed regrets over their part in the scheme. Others have beat feet for the border to get ahead of the financial investigations.
TTG: “The armed threat fizzled, but the coup was brought to fruition through a CIA information operation, although it wasn’t called IO at the tim”
And that CIA IO operation was taking place INSIDE Guatemala? Or was it being published inthe US media?
Yeah, Right,
The operation was controlled and directed from CIA HQ in Langley, Virginia. The target was the then current government in Guatemala.
TTG: “And isn’t that the whole point of media influencers?”
Isn’t the whole point of “social media influencers” that the viewer is well aware that the person they are obsessing over is attempting to influence them?
TikTok isn’t “media”. It is “social media”. Nobody in their right mind goes to social media thinking that what they are going to be looking at is anything less than “opinionated”, and very, very frequently “narcissism”.
They know that.
The “influencer” knows that.
Everyone knows that except, apparently, the Romanian population that is of voting age.
If you were intent on running an “IO campaign” then TikTok is at one and the same time both (a) the easiest platform to blast your message out of and (b) the worst possible platform if you want to succeed.
Certainly it is not a platform where such nefarious activities is going to swing an election.
Yeah, Right,
The viewer is less aware of who’s behind a social media account than he is of the identity of a TV or radio broadcaster. Even some of the TikTok content spreaders in Romania were unaware of what they were spreading. They didn’t know who Georgescu was and just posted what they were paid to post.
You forget that in 2016 accounts like @TEN_GOP and BlackMattersUS were run from the Saint Petersburg in Russia. The @TEN_GOP account was even monitored by members of Trump’s campaign team. The BlackMattersUS site was liked by thousands and even organized a demonstration in NYC protesting attended by well over a thousand. The Russians were equal opportunity bamboozlers in their quest to stir up trouble.
TTG,
It was a judicial coup. As simple as that. We can detest the right wingers as much as we want. But looks like Georgescu won fair and square. The Tik-Tok excuse is just BS.
I guess we should wait and see what will happen in the upcoming Germany federal election. Will the same Tik-Tok BS be used again to cancel election?
Somewhat off topic:
A key issue coming up is going to be the relation between the EU and the US.
This is discussed here:
https://www.politico.eu/article/ursula-von-der-leyen-donald-trump-european-commission-joe-biden-liability-white-house-eu-relations/
“the return of Donald Trump to the White House is set to cause turbulence during von der Leyen’s term,
as she struggles to
support Ukraine,
uphold international climate targets
and get the continent growing again in the face of a potential global trade war.”
I want to insert a personal opinion here.
I think US/EU support for Ukraine vis a vis Russia is an absolute abomination.
That support prioritizes Ukraine over so many more important issues.
Notably,
the destruction of the traditional demographics of Western Christendom,
and the looming climate catastrophy.
Prioritizing support for Ukraine, with all the incident costs that involves,
over those issues is an abomination.
Time to abandon Ukraine and move on to more important issues.
Keith,
Ursula will soon be out on her ass, reappointment notwithstanding. The EU has no taxing ability, it relies on member nations central banks. She’s been running them all to the edge of bankruptcy trying to protect the euro. The City of London and the major EU banks need the US involved, and funneling money, into Ukraine or they have to make good on all those defaulted Ukrainian bonds. The climate goals? Good luck convincing european voters of that necessity. Politico Europe is as clueless of the political reality on the streets in European countries as Kamala’s campaign was here.
TTG – a couple of my compatriots engaged in a brief discussion on your next President.
https://youtu.be/pPGQUp0T1sE?t=818
Such hopes! Reminds me of 2016. But I’m not in the least disagreeing with them. I share those hopes. Who doesn’t, who wishes the America people well.
A corrective note, if that’s OK. They take the usual line on Boris Johnson’s visit to Kiev, the intervention that is generally assumed to have ditched Istanbul. The Russians were, I think, correct to try for a settlement. I would have been great if they’d got one. But it was never on the cards, Johnson or not. The ultras would have blocked it, as they’re doing now.
Galloway, Scottish himself. claims that Trump is a “Scotsman at heart”. Well, they’re an unruly and fanatical lot, the Scots, and that’s what Trump needs to be if he’s to drive his reforms past the Beltway.
Damn. “It”. Sorry.
That video now private and the Trump discussion between Piers Morgan and George Galloway that was linked to omitted from the copy of the video elsewhere. Though I didn’t spend a whole lot of time looking.
…………………………
On the subject of Russian interference in Western elections, it is now established fact that dark money from Russia swung the Brexit referendum vote. Established in the UK information sphere, anyway. The Russians are behind all Eurosceptic movements in Europe as well.
They also got Trump elected. In fact anything that happens anywhere that doesn’t suit the current crop of status quo Western politicians is due to Russian subversion.
I wasted a lot of time in ’22 attempting to explain that the status quo politicians of the West must have us screaming at the Russians. Else we’d be screaming at the politicians instead for comprehensively screwing up our various countries.
“We have always been at war with Eastasia” is in truth the only effective card our politicians have to play.
Works every time though, that card. Not that it makes a lot of odds outside the West. As we head eagerly into Cold War II we probably won’t notice that the Russians no longer pay much heed to the antics of our politicians. They’ve written the West off and have business to attend to elsewhere.
https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/russia-at-a-turning-point
” For Russians this debate reflected their own long-lasting dispute between Westernizing liberal historical determinists on the one hand and conservative believers in distinct paths of civilizational development on the other. The latter have won the day, and there may be no turning back.”
Or for the most of us who are not Russia specialists like Professor Robinson a single photo will do. The photo of Chubais standing in line at a Turkish ATM really said all that needed to be said.
All this was obvious from February 2022 on. The Russians will neutralise the NATO bridgehead in Ukraine – that seems to be happening quite fast now – and, as said so often, will close the door on Europe and make sure that door has locks. Our strength, as Berletic points out above so cogently, now lies almost entirely in information warfare. The Russians’ in defence; and they’ve had the sense to ensure that their defences work.
“Romania’s Constitutional Court annulled the entire presidential election —… Moscow-friendly {says who, and what Romania law forbids that?} , far-right {says who? Danger!Danger! is that what “far-right” means?} candidate won the first round. ….. announcement from Romanian prosecutors that a probe…..has been launched…”
Is this a prosecutor like the one Biden got Ukraine to fire all those years ago, you know, controlled by the current president (of here, Romania)? My, a probe not yet completed and…….
” a lawyer specializing in the Constitutional Court, told RFE/RL that the ruling was “definitive and binding,””
A lawyer said so, must be TRUE! The Romanian Kraken has spoken! I feel so NATO safe now.
” President Klaus Iohannis, whose term was scheduled to end on December 21, said he would stay in his post until a successor can be elected.”
So Zelenksy strong. Iohannis gets to keep power until the prosecutors he controls say the candidate – presumably not Moscow friendly (a requirement of which Romanian law?) wins a new election? Nothing says DeMoCracY quite like cancelling elections and keeping power. NATO strong!
” Georgescu’s victory sent shock waves across the West after Romania’s Supreme Council of National Defense (CSAT) declassified documents said to prove a massive….”
Our resident english major is no longer with us. Anyone know English enough to know if “said to prove” means actually proves? Just curious if words have meaning now……….
Does anyone know who runs the CSAT in Romania?
Leadership and Members:
President of the Council: President of Romania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Council_of_National_Defence_(Romania)#:
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA AYFKM?
Not an Information Operation. No no not that. Just the leadership of Romania getting its ass kicked in an election (Kamala is ahead in the polls! Just like Hilary!) and voiding the election and staying in power.
Anyone know who funds Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty? Is it the same people behind the TikTok campaign…. Gotta watch for that foreign government interference.
To summarize RFE/RL:
President of Romania releases “documents” from the CSAT he runs, prosecutor working for him ‘opens a probe’, and the court immediately nullifies the election in progress and moves to ban the candidate who won the first round and likely would win outright? And of course gets labeled by whomever funds Radio Free Europe as “far-right” (anyone ever hear that term before and know what it means?) and “Moscow friendly”. Best of all:
“Romanian intelligence services said sparked the shock first-round victory of Calin Georgescu” Anyone at RFE figure out who runs Romanian intelligence services? Do they get their news from CNN Europe, or do they just listen to “Our Man in Havana”.
Fred: “Anyone know English enough to know if “said to prove” means actually proves?”
It means someone told the reporter that the “declassified documents” provide proof of the accusation, but the reporter was too lazy to actually go and read the document for themselves.
Or, put another way, “said to prove” = “the scuttlebutt says”
Yeah, Right,
Election still stopped by the court
Indeed.
TTG wants us to believe that the PURPOSE of these court proceedings is to investigate “Russian IO interference” in the election.
But that is just the EXCUSE, the real purpose is to buy time until they can figure out a way to stop Georgescu from winning.
One thing that nobody appears able to explain to me is this: TikTok is not under Romanian legal jurisdiction, so what prevents Russia! Russia! Russia! from doing over the Deep State’s preferred candidate by “supporting” him next?
The Russians can rinse-and-repeat this forever, and the court (if it is to be consistent, as all courts should be) will have to annul the next vote, then the next, then the next, then the next, ad infinitum.
How does the court prevent that? Issue a court order to TikTok? Slap a summons on Putin?
This court ruling makes a mockery of any concept of domestic law precisely because it rules on issues (what TikTok does/doesn’t allow on its platform) that are outside of its jurisdiction.
Yeah, Right,
TikTok is obviously not a Romanian entity and the Constitutional Court is not targeting TikTok. In fact TikTok is cooperating with the court to preserve evidence of election interference over that particular social network. It’s the election interference that the court has jurisdiction over. It will investigate any future interference, no matter how that interference is accomplished. If russia wants to try again. She will be stymied again.
TTG: ” In fact TikTok is cooperating with the court to preserve evidence of election interference over that particular social network. It’s the election interference that the court has jurisdiction over. ”
Look, there is a fundamental difference of opinion between you and I on this issue.
I simply can not see how ANY FOREIGNER saying ANYTHING AT ALL about ANY ROMANIAN PUBLIC FIGURE can amount to illegal foreign interference in the domestic political affairs of the state of Romania when those comments ARE NOT BEING PUBLISHED in any domestic media of the state of Romania.
I mean, where does that end? Where does that lead to? What utterly-ludicrous rabbit-hole do you go down if you want to follow that path?
If Antony Blinken were to stand up at a State Department presser and say “We don’t want Georgescu to win” would that invalidate the re-run election vote and cause the election to be cancelled once more, yet again?
If The Onion were to mercilessly mock and ridicule the ruling of that Romanian court would that also not be “election interference”?
If Saturday Night Live were to run a skit lampooning the clown show that is Romanian politics then, again, would that cause the election to be cancelled for the second time?
What is said about ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING about Romanian domestic politics is not a matter for a Romanian court to intervene in when those comments AREN’T BEING SAID IN ROMANIA’S OWN MEDIA.
It really is as simple as that, and if you disagree – as, apparently, you do – then the Russians have won, because they now have a sure-fire method of torpedoing Romanian elections: simply run a concerted campaign on social media, and when the Romanian court steps in to put a stop to that election then Putin can say “Nah, nah, nah, ya’ can’t touch me” and just keep on buying more ad space on TikTok.
The court has stepped waaaaaaaay over the boundaries of its authority with this, and as a result left its own country’s political stability in tatters.
And, no, no, no, it wasn’t Putin who did that, it was the court that has made a laughing stock of the entire concept of Romanian “democracy”.
“so what prevents Russia! Russia! Russia! from doing over the Deep State’s preferred candidate by “supporting” him next?”
Yeah, Right, I have the answer to that.
It’s the Deep State that decides to bring the case to court. So if they like the candidate, everything will be swept under the carpet.
In the finest Western democratic tradition, of course. If the people have made the “Right” choice there is no reason to use silly rules to block the will of the people. Rules matter only if it’s the “Wrong” choice.
TTG,
With respect, I think you’re being a bit obtuse.
I think that YR’s point is that Russia can change its approach and produce Tik Tok favorable to the candidates who they do NOT want to win. Then, if the court is consistent (big “if”), the election will have to invalidated when the anti-Russia candidate wins. Russia (or any foreign entity) could cause the election to never resolve simply by creating content about candidates on various venues on line, on the airwaves and/or in print.
Then the current government will just have to stay in power indefinitely, like Zelensky. Funny how that works out.
Eric Newhill,
It’s obvious it’s up to Romania to defend herself from such organized influence operations. If she does nothing, she will be locked in an endless requirement to invalidate elections. We took measures after the 2016 elections to lessen the effect of Russia’s operations. Those operations and even China’s efforts proved fairly ineffective against the measures we undertook. It’s now something every country must do.
TTG,
I still haven’t seen any evidence that the alleged Tik Tok campaign had a material effect on voting age adults in Romania – which I doubt.
If the argument – yours or the kangaroo court’s – is that it is merely the presence of an organized campaign that can get the election invalidated, and it is irrelevant whether or not its effect was material, then you are in the position of having to read a lot of minds and split a lot hairs. If radio free America or an opinion writer for News Week favor some other candidate, is that just offering an opinion, or part of a targeted campaign? How can you discern?
If an internet influencer’s opinion changes the course of an election, how do you know whether or not the influencer intentionally targeted a candidate or gave a boost by happenstance via a usual expression of free speech? Does it even matter? Influence is influence.
Eric Newhill,
This wasn’t the acts of independent influencers or even an organized political campaign. It was a coordinated and well funded covert campaign that actively circumvented safety mechanisms set up by TikTok and employed fake accounts. It was nothing like RFE/RL offering opinions in support of preferred candidates.
Here’s a limited description of that covert IO campaign:
TTG: “Here’s a limited description of that covert IO campaign:”
You are joking, right?
The passage amounts to a description of how powerful people worked out (I don’t know how, clearly the Romanian voters haven’t) that TikTok is not a media platform but is, instead, a “social media platform”.
Color me shocked! Shocked, I tell you!
TTG, this is a truism: TikTok can be rorted. And it can be rorted precisely because it is a social media platform that exist entirely in the borderless realm that is the “Internet”.
So, yes, it can be manipulated. But, no, nobody in their right mind (except, apparently, Romanian voters) would be unaware of that fact.
And, yes, that is a fact: there are NO journalistic standard on TikTok. Anyone can say anything about any topic, and any one person can claim to be many people just as much as many people can claim to be just a single dude in his mum’s basement.
But, again, once more, that is no reason to invalidate an election vote.
What the court should have done is to loudly proclaim that there is nothing about this that is within the jurisdiction of the domestic laws of Romania.
What the government organs of Romania should have done is run a vigorous education campaign inside Romania that says two things:
1) Romanian media companies have to comply with Romanian laws regarding the fairness and the completeness of their reporting, and the state is always going to be on the lookout for foreign interference in that.
2) TikTok is a jungle. The state has no control over it and only the most rudimentary means of oversight. So caveat emptor to every Romanian who choses to go there, and if you believe anything you read there then you are an idiot.
TTG,
You’re really hung up on the idea that someone deliberately created Tik Tok videos that support Georgescu. Again, I say so what? Did anyone of voting age watch the Tik Tok videos? If anyone watched them, were they actually influenced to vote for Georgescu?
I also completely fail to see the distinction you propose between some individuals, a cartel or some foreign government creating the Tik Tok videos and some NATO committee or federal law enforcement agency or corporate exec.s with ulterior motives (or all in collusion) ordering news outlets to run favorable stories about a candidate and suppress negative ones for the six months leading up to an election. Actually, I see the latter as a more serious problem b/c I do know the science and, to the extent legacy news is still seen as a trustworthy authority by boomers and younger dullards, it would have much more influence than some stupid juvenile Tik Tok videos.
It seems like you’re ok w/ invalidating elections just b/c you’re mad at the audacity of Russia!!! creating Tik Toks. I recall you being equally worked up about some retarded alleged Russian facebook posts in 2016, posts that pretty much no Trump voter ever saw or, if they did, didn’t care about. Your RDS is as out of control as your TDS.
Eric Newhill,
TikTok users don’t skew as young as you think they do. The largest proportion (30%) of US TikTok users are 25 to 34 years of age. And although 55% of TikTok users are under 30, another 40% are above 35 years of age. I imagine the same holds roughly true in Romania.
TTG,
If those Tik Tok viewer demographics are accurate, then we have a bigger problem than Russians creating political content aimed at foreign voters.
OTOH, maybe the adult population viewing Tik Tok is doing so reasons other than political info. Doesn’t Tik Tok know how many unique viewers in Romania watched the Georgescu videos? Lots of “hits” or very few? Of those that saw the videos, how many gave them serious consideration?
Eric Newhill,
Those Tik Tok viewer demographics are only part of the problem. Look around at all the people out in public with their noses buried in their phones. They have no awareness of the world around them. They do it sitting at a table among friends. Even I have a cellphone even though I only carry it when away at the insistence of SWMBO. Funny, she once tolerated not being in contact for weeks or months, but now insists I carry the damned thing.
I found these blurbs about the extent of the IO campaign in Romania:
These are from the intel reports released by the government. Unfortunately, they were released as PDF images. I can’t read Romanian and I can’t cut and paste text for translation. In the coming weeks, we may get more details as to the extent of the TikTok campaign, the hack attempts on the electoral systems and the armed mercenaries arrested.
Yeah, Right,
Wait until he discovers where so much money funneled through Act Blue came from.
That’s different Fred! When guys I like benefit, it’s just free speech. It’s only a targeted IO when guys I don’t like can be construed to having gotten a leg up.
Fred, I believe Poul has already answered that point.