"Support for Scottish independence is at an all time high, Telegraph analysis shows, with every opinion poll conducted this summer showing more Scots in favour of leaving the UK than remaining.
Around 47.9 per cent of Scots now support independence versus 44.0 per cent against, according to a Telegraph aggregation of opinion polls taken since the 2014 independence referendum.
The resurgence in Scottish nationalism has come as the devolved government takes a markedly different approach to its handling of the Covid-19 pandemic from Westminster – and as the deadline looms over Brexit talks." telegraph
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I had an infected molar out today and am not feeling grand but this attracted my attention. I favor independence for French Canada but I have "dogs" in every side of the independence issue in Scotland and have learned to shut up about that.
The usual tired, failed argument about economic viability will be made. Ho. Hum. What people "burdened" by foreign governance has been dissuaded by that in their quest for "freedom?"
If people really cared about that the Philippines would now be the 51st state. pl
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/scottish-independence-tracker-polls-show-support-time-high/
To fracture Poe, I wish you Surcease of sorrow for the lost Molar.
Colonel – as an Englishman I hope very much they don’t go. Lots of links, lots of sentimental associations
If I were a Scotsman I’d just do it. No question. It’s certainly doable and I’m surprised they haven’t done it long since.
Leads to a lot of problems for us in England though. It seems the old dream of a proud independent Scotland is now gone. To be replaced, just as fast as it could be done, by absorption into the European Union.
Who the hell would want that on their doorstep?
Yes, a lot of problems.
.
Scotland is about as economically viable as Quebec – barely marginal.
I suspect part of the reason many Scots may now favor independence from England is beCAUSE of the passage of Brexit. Rightly or wrongly, they fear being consumed in a Bonfire of the Social Services ( what few still remain) and feel that they might preserve, among other things , a Scottish National Health Service within the borders of an Independent Scotland.
And National Pride must be a big part of it too. So when National Pride and Social-Economic Survivalism both point in the same direction ( Independence from a Brexited England), it will become attractive to a majority of Scots.
Of course I am just guessing as to what the Scots may be thinking and feeling, and why.
Someone who knows can certainly correct me. Hopefully nicely, please . . .
My son was working in Edinburgh a few years ago teaching sailing. He was walking the main street and noticed some people were glaring at him and spitting on the street as he passed. A friend pointed out he was wearing a Royal yacht club sailing shirt with a crown emblem on it.
His comment over the phone to me was : “dad, don’t tell anyone but the Scots really do hate the English!”.
Similar experience in Ireland.
If the Scots decide to have an independent nation, more power to them.
It will get really interesting if they apply for EU membership (which I think is likely, even though the EU becomes more dysfunctional every day), and then the economic viability arguments will become very relevant, because all existing EU member states will have to agree to taking Free Scotland in as a new member. In some EU member states, this means there will have to be a binding referendum.
And I don’t think the populations of many EU net-payer states (with the exception of Germany) will be very keen on taking in another net receiver country.
Grandfather came from Aberdeen Scotland so I should be all for their independence but it’s invaluable having your own currency, the Pound, instead of the Euro. When you can’t print your own currency you are at the mercy of the entity that does, in the Euro instance, the German influenced European Central Bank. Examples of getting caught abound like the Greece 2009 crisis triggered by the world-wide Great Recession, structural weaknesses in the Greek economy, and lack of monetary policy flexibility as a member of the Eurozone. But on the other hand, if they did vote for independence, they could negotiate an arrangement like Denmark.
Why do you favor independence for Quebec?
Even the Quebecois seem to have reconciled permanently with Anglo-Canadians.
With the myriad of crises going on in the world, what possible benefit could there be in stirring up that issue again?
Yes I am not surprised by this, during the last election the useless politicians who ran the Unionist campaign decided to run a campaign of endless economic threats, I am not sure they made a single positive emotional argument. The end result was the independence vote rose and almost had enough to win, the bigger issue was the union has now been cast as simply an economic relationship, and that is not enough.
As an Englishman I think Scotland has been going its own way for a while, I also object to the more leftist political cultural with its twinge of Presbyterian authoritarianism, so I see the benefits. It is an open question going forward, in a way it never has been before. A new arrangement is needed, I am not sure that full independence is the answer though.
Sadly all interest in Quebec secession has faded away in the newer generations. My grandparents voted yes in ’80 and afterwards said the opportunity would never happen again, both of my parents voted yes in ’95(with my grandparents voting no). I am inclined to agree with the opinion of my grandparents, that the opportunity came in ’80. Even if ’95 had succeeded, we would be seeing a soft brexit-type secession at most that would trail on for decades, to the extreme detriment of Quebec. Quebec just has it too good in the current relationship with anglo Canada. We get a lot more from the relationship than they get from us. And french language/culture is as vital as ever before, as long as you aren’t in Montreal you can easily go about your entire life without hearing any english outside of the few classes in secondary school.
james
What has this to do with Scotland?
Oscar Peterson
I have the usual French Canadian dislike of Anglo Canada.
TV
Economic viability is a foolish argument that never impresses a people seeking independence. Economic activity and trade always continue across borders if it is mutually beneficial.
Col:
You’ve got to have something to trade.
Kilts and oatmeal won’t do it.
The biggest piece of the Scot economy is the Brent oil fields that are almost played out.
And then there’s the question of debt obligation which would have become one of the big hurdles if Quebec went their own way.
How much UK national debt can be assigned to Scotland?
I understand the emotions here (I’ve visited Scotland and heard the comments about the English), but decisions made on emotions usually have very bad results.
TV
People often make what you might think bad decisions. leaving the British empire was probably a bad decision for the US at the time it was made.
TV
“Scotland was one of the industrial powerhouses of Europe from the time of the Industrial Revolution onwards, being a world leader in manufacturing.[10] This left a legacy in the diversity of goods and services which Scotland produces, from textiles, whisky and shortbread to jet engines, buses, computer software, ships, avionics and microelectronics, as well as banking, insurance, investment management and other related financial services. In common with most other advanced industrialised economies, Scotland has seen a decline in the importance of both manufacturing industries and primary-based extractive industries. This has, however, been combined with a rise in the service sector of the economy, which has grown to be the largest sector in Scotland.” wiki on Scotland
TV
“The economy of Quebec is diversified and post-industrial with an average potential for growth.[4] Manufacturing and service sectors dominate the economy. If Quebec were a country, its economy would be ranked the 44th largest in the world just behind Norway.[5] Quebec is also ranked the 21st largest in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. The economy of Quebec represents 19.65% of the total GDP of Canada.[6]” wiki on The Economy of Quebec.
“Of Scotland’s King I haud my house, I pay him meat and fee, And I will keep my gude auld house, while my house will keep me.”
‘She makes a stir in tower and trench,
That brawling, boisterous, Scottish wench;
Came I early, came I late.
I found Agnes at the gate.’
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofScotland/Black-Agnes/
Luke Kelly – Parcel Of Rogues – YES SCOTLAND
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbZH_hH0mp8
james
Bestir yourself and find the answer I made to someone else on Quebec’s economy.
@Walrus
“My son was working in Edinburgh a few years ago teaching sailing. He was walking the main street and noticed some people were glaring at him and spitting on the street as he passed. A friend pointed out he was wearing a Royal yacht club sailing shirt with a crown emblem on it.”
Far be it for me to cast doubt on you or your son, Walrus, but, if this happened, then I am amazed. First of all, most Scots – even those who support independence – are not republicans, nor are they intent on restoring the House of Stewart. Second of all, Edinburgh is one of the last few remaining strongholds of the unionist vote (the only city/region in the country to elect a Labour MP). Thirdly, it has a fairly sizeable English diaspora. Fourthly, the notion that even a noticeable minority of Scots “hate the English” to the extent that they would spit at a (suspected) Englishman in the street is fanciful. And you say this happened on Princess Street? Amazing!
James, one thing wrong with the idea of Cascadia is the incorporation of the Shiite holes of Portland and Seattle within such an embryonic concoction, otherwise a plausible dream, geographically speaking. But to achieve this, the USA will have to avoid total dissolution, both legally, illegally, and Atilla the Hun style actuality. Of course, I could be totally wrong.
I will second James’ contribution (via Craig Murray). The current leadership of the Scottish National Party (SNP) has no intention of pursuing independence seriously.
Salmond was the threat and shadowy forces (from within the SNP and from without) have neutralised him for the time being. He’s a formidable operator and I wouldn’t write him off entirely, but he isn’t a young man and, despite being exonerated during his recent travails, he is in a weakened position from which he’ll have to regain ground. It is asking a lot, even of him.
Feel the need to qualify my previous statement here re Quebec independence: I am a strict secessionist, to the quebec masses it may appear that we get far more from the anglos than the other way around but this is a seriously flawed way of thinking. Insidious effects of federal efforts to push anglo mass culture on the quebecois populace are not to be underestimated. A couple decades ago you rarely heard english songs on the radio, there was a strict qota. No longer. It may sound petty, but this is a tiny nation in a sea of anglos and French is a very fragile tongue, prone to corruption.Felix Leclerc said it best
L’Ile d’Orléans
Un dépotoir
Un cimetière
Parcs à vidanges
Boîte à déchets
U. S. parkings
On veut la mettre
En mini-jupe
And speak English
Faire ça à elle
L’Ile d’Orléans
Notre fleur de lys
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Bu8M1fgiFYo
Senescal,
Thank you for telling me the name of that street, I couldn’t remember, but that was it. No, I couldn’t make it up. The incident happened when he was on what the Germans call kids “wanderjahre”. I only got phone calls from him when he needed more money.
In Ireland he sensibly didn’t wear that shirt after being advised that the boat he was sailing on at Cork week was 100% republican.
He has both Australian and U.K. passports and started work in Palma in the spring, then worked around the Med before going North.
Walrus,
maybe the people who spat at him were Irish students then…there are huge numbers of them in Scotland.
It is certainly a bad idea to wear anything that glorifies the House of Hanover or its successor, the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (aka Windsor) in some parts of the island of Ireland, and likewise any type of British army memorabilia, but that is not the case in Scotland, even in areas where such sentiment might be understandable, such as in the Highlands. There are certainly more republicans in Scotland than in England but they tend to over-emphasise their numbers (which don’t show up in polls).
As much as I detest the politics of the SNP (they are very far to the left), the majority sentiment behind Scottish nationalism is not based on any kind of ethnic identity (most modern ‘Scots’ are, ironically, of Anglo-Saxon descent in any case) but it has more of a socio-political/cultural basis to it. There is certainly, in my opinion, a chauvinistic character to it, but that’s based on a notion that ‘Scottish’ culture is more egalitarian and empathetic than ‘feudal’ English culture (bear in mind that the Labour party was founded by a Scot). I don’t buy that. I mean, first of all, I don’t buy that there is such a thing as a singular unique “Scottish culture”, nor an English one, or that Scots are better people than English people. Scottish Highlanders do not have the same culture as Scottish lowlanders, for example, nor do people from the north-west of England have the same culture as people from the south-east of England. Nor do I buy that leftists care more about others than people on the right. The SNP are making hay with the idea that a singular Scottish culture exists though, and are trying to invent one. An example of this is bi-lingual (English/Gaelic) road signs across Scotland, even in regions like Strathclyde where, before English was spoken, the local language was Brythonic (Welsh).
I am a spectator to all of this now, but a well-informed one. I exiled myself many years ago and now only visit to see family and to walk in the glens.
Serge,
Many years ago we used to get CBC on our Cable TV feed here in South East Michigan. I remember watching about some of the Constitutional Run-Ups and Run-Downs and also a couple of Quebec Secession yes-or-no cycles.
I remember during one of them that somewhere just before the Referendum . . . . that Chief Matthew Coon Come of the Cree Nation said that if Quebec seceded from Canada that the Cree Nation would secede from Quebec . . . and would also invoke the protection of Crown Treaties between the Cree Nation and the British Throne.
Had Quebec voted Yes on Secede, how would Quebec have handled that Cree Nation response?
There’s some mighty fine fishing grounds to the north, many played out fields can be resurrected by EOR and produce significant amounts of oil – tens of millions of barrels have been produced from certain central California oil fields despite “running out of oil 50 years ago) due to EOR, with no end in sight.
from “https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13202-018-0451-6”
“About two-thirds of the original oil in place remain in the reservoir after primary and secondary production”
And with lower costs than London, Edinburgh could easily compete on software and IT.
https://www.sdi.co.uk/key-sectors/technology-and-engineering
Finally, the survival of Scots Gaelic – one of the oldest languages in Europe – requires independence.
The Alex Salmond show (former prime minister) provides an excellent window into Scottish culture, economy, and pride (and other topics).
https://www.rt.com/shows/alex-salmond-show/
Scotland still has a mixed economy and could flourish on the basis of its engineering industries, food and drink sectors and its expertise in research in biomedical sciences. The oil is an added bonus. The Brent oilfields may be coming to the end of production but the West of Shetland fields like Clair and Schiehallion are just starting.
The UK has already accepted full liability for its debt. Scotland could take on payment of part of the interest on this debt but that would be out of goodwill and a matter for negotiation.
If Scotland is to regain its prosperity, maintain its own systems for education, law and health, if it is to recover from the gross mismanagement of Brexit and the pandemic by the UK government, Scotland needs to be independent.
Consider. If all the states on the left coast (CA,OR,WA & HI) decided unilaterally to secede from the U.S. against the will of the rest of the country, would we just “let the erring sisters depart in peace”? And be cut off from the Pacific Ocean? And end up bordering on a hostile and technically advanced rival? Among other things?
Such a thing would be possible only if the rest of us were dumb enough to let it happen. The situation is even worse with respect to Scotland seceding from the U.K. Scotland is in the U.K. because of the personal union of the Crown in one person with two titles: James I of England/James VI of Scotland. The Monarch is the Head of State of the U.K., and all it’s citizens are her subjects. Groups of individuals could renounce their citizenship collectively, but by doing so would lose their rights as citizens. They could not constitutionally secede en bloc without her consent.
And if the Monarchy lacks the political will to preserve the Union, then it will have proven it’s impotence and irrelevancy, and will not survive either.
Consider this analogy. If the people of Florida voted to secede from the United States, could they make it stick? But Scotland and Florida each represent roughly the same proportion of the population of their respective countries.
An instrumental medley from the band, Ossian:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RUdvGZqgeTA
A memory of one of the chief contributions of Scotland to the British Empire, and its cost:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lR5Tqwim6Io
And on a lighter note, perhaps this might be how some of the EU’s members might conceive of Scotland’s bid for entry:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lR5Tqwim6Io
Lyrics in Scots dialect found by clicking on the arrow next to the title. Pretty tongue in cheek if you ask me…
Years ago, on a trip to Scotland, one night on the western coast, my then wife & I sought out a place to eat after a day of travel. We drove up a steep road, ascending above the town, and found a crowded pub and restaurant. Once we were seated, we found that all of the locals there were speaking exclusively in Scots Gaelic; this was the Gaeltach, and what an uplifting thing it was to see these people hewing to their culture and their language…
Long live Scotland, and Hungary, and indeed other lands where people dare to remain true to their history and culture.
There are far more marginal countries than Scotland that make a go of it as independent countries, that is before we acknowledge the EU angle.
Scottish independence will be as beneficial for England and Wales as Quebec independence would have been for Anglo Canada. Small countries are good for the citizenry, and the more homogenous the better.
Senescal,
What’s your clan? Just curious.
The Daily Telegraph is an Establishment mouthpiece, and as noted in the US elections, polls are notoriously unreliable.
For those that are interested the Parachute Regiment is currently deployed with, by invitation from, EUFOR. This is very strange as Brexit, leaving the EU, is currently underway.
Not, for those who are aware of the Sandhurst and Lancaster House agreements between the UK and the EU committing ALL British forces to serving in EUFOR for the next 50 years.
Neither Britain nor Scotland will ever leave the EU despite the lies spoken by Alexander de Phiffel Johnson the British Prime Minister who uses the pseudonym ‘Boris Johnson’!
Just as the Covid19 scam is a lie, so is Brexit and so is Scottish independence. Scotland is the testing ground for the new fascism being imposed on Britain by Alexander Johnson, the Prime Minister.
John Unhinge.
(You can get full details of the Parachute Regiment deployment from UKColumn News’ Friday broadcast.)
J,
the clue is in the name.
JerseyJeffersonian,
Gaelic culture is the culture of the Gaels, among whom I was raised. It is not the culture of all ‘Scots’ who go by that name today, nor was it the culture of those who called themselves ‘Scots’ from the Middle Ages onward. Strictly speaking, they are Norse-Gaels, a hybrid nation of actual Scots (Scotti) and Norsemen. They make up perhaps 10% of the population of modern Scotland (there are more of them in North America than are in their homeland).
The people of the south-west are descendants of Britons – William Wallace (“Welsh”) was a descendent of these people. The people of the south-east (from the Firth of Forth to the border with England) are descendants of the Anglo-Saxons and Jutes who inhabited the northern half of the Kingdom of Northumbria before it was partitioned between England and Scotland. The people of the north-east are descendants of the Picts.
Gaelic culture is on its knees not because of the union with England but because of governance by lallan’s folk (lowlanders) over the course of several hundred years – since the demise of Clan Donald and the Kingdom of the Isles and Mann. The term “sassenach” is thought to be an insulting term for “English” people. It isn’t. It means “Saxon” and it applied every bit as much to lowland ‘Scots’ from the south-east of Scotland as it did to the Saxons south of the border.
Scotland’s history is too complex to cover in detail here, suffice to say that Highland culture was historically seen as something that had to be undermined, first to establish a new ‘Scottish’ identity under the Canmore’s (and later the Stewart’s), then to establish a new ‘British’ identity under the Stewart’s (and later the Hanover’s). It was seen as a tribal and backward culture. Now it suits certain parties to paint Highland culture as the historic ‘Scottish’ culture, because this serves to draw a clear distinction between Scotland and England. Like most people who live on the island of Britain, ‘Scots’ have very poor knowledge of the history of their country and think Calgacus (Caledon i.e. Pict), Somerled (Norse-Gael), and the Bruce (Anglo-Norman-Gael) were all part of the same tribe – their tribe – so they’ll buy this. Similarly, most people in the west of England imagine they are Anglo-Saxons when they are in fact Britons (Welsh). The English imagine they rule the island – they are the most deluded of all.
Identity politics has been around for far longer than most people imagine…
John Unhinge
Here is the link on the parachute regiment.
https://www.ukcolumn.org/series/eu-military-unification#timeline-item-15
Senescal
According to research and my da,’ we Langs were Angles who came ashore in the east and drifted across dropping off groups in our progress toward the west. Our branch ending up as a sept of Clan Donald in the area of the great glen where they were a dependent group of Macdonald of Glencoe. They left for Louth in Ireland with other similar catholic families before 1700. Does that make any sense?
Colonel
With the EU taking control of Both Britain military and nuclear forces. How will that bode for the U.S. and Russia? The EU taking control of all its members militaries and their budgets, an Iron dictatorship in the offing.
https://www.ukcolumn.org/series/eu-military-unification#timeline
And to think, the Romans used to call us pirates.
Colonel,
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Considering the ‘Glorious Revolution’ had occurred not long before 1700, Catholics were mistrusted and considered to be loyal to the Stewart’s, and they had been persecuted in the south of Scotland as far back as Mary Queen of Scots. The Highlands remained Catholic throughout that whole period and Clan Donald, though diminished, was still a power not to be taken lightly. My own ancestors eventually sought shelter in the same lands for the same reasons in the period after the ’45.
I’m sure you know this, but variations of “lang” mean “long” or “tall” in the Scandinavian languages, and the word has the same meaning in the ‘Scots’ dialect (e.g. “Auld Lang Syne”).
The Great Glen and Glencoe are among the glens I was referring to in my earlier post. I would have spent my summer vacation walking them had it not been for the zealous lockdown restrictions in Scotland. They are magnificent to behold.
Senescal
Thanks. Once established in Louth they remained there until the late 1820s, all the while marrying only women of other catholic Scots families in the area. In 1827-28 a large group of these allied families moved to St. Lawrence County, New York arriving at Montreal and then taking local steamship passage to the US. They remained there until after the WBS and then moved west to take up land alotments in Wisconsin under the Homestead Act.
Problem : le UK nuclear strategic submarines are based in Scotland.
And there would be almost no other alternative site.