What really happened with the Pacific Palisades water hydrants?

Over the years, Los Angeles has adopted wildfire policies that are far tougher than many other places. But the recent fires have exposed gaps that many other communities share.

It’s a headline no one would want to see: Fire hydrants being used to fight the Palisades Fire were running dry. The fast-moving fire tested the L.A. Department of Water and Power’s municipal system: The final tank used to maintain water pressure in the area ran dry by 3 a.m. Wednesday, according to officials. The news drew ire both on social media and from prominent figures like Rick Caruso. The former mayoral candidate and Pacific Palisades landowner went on local TV news stations to complain about the situation, telling Fox 11 it was an “absolute mismanagement by the city.”

The news triggered Governor Gavin Newsom to announce an investigation into the issue, saying that the lack of functioning hydrants “likely impaired the effort to protect some homes and evacuation corridors. We need answers to ensure this does not happen again and we have every resource available to fight these catastrophic fires,” Newsom wrote on X Friday.

Officials say they were and are operating in extreme conditions. We looked into how exactly the shortage happened, and what, if anything, could have been done to prevent it. LADWP’s explanation for the shortage comes down to three nearby water tanks, each with a storage capacity of about a million gallons. These tanks help maintain enough pressure for water to flow from fire hydrants in uphill areas — but the pressure had decreased due to heavy water use, and officials knew the tanks couldn’t keep up the drain forever. “We pushed the system to the extreme,” LADWP CEO Janisse Quiñones said in a news conference. “Four times the normal demand was seen for 15 hours straight, which lowered our water pressure.”

According to LADWP, the tanks’ water supply needed to be replenished in order to provide enough pressure for the water to flow through fire hydrants uphill. But officials said as firefighters drew more and more water from the trunk line, or main supply, they used water that would have refilled the tanks, eventually depleting them. “I want to make sure that you understand there’s water on the trunk line, it just cannot get up the hill because we cannot fill the tanks fast enough,” Quiñones said. That decreased the water pressure, which is needed for fire hydrants to work in higher elevations.

The first LADWP water tank ran out at about 4:45 p.m. Tuesday, while the second ran out at approximately 8:30 p.m. that day and the third and final tank ran out at about 3 a.m. Wednesday. Officials said this was to be expected due to the constraints of the municipal water system, which L.A. County Public Works Director Mark Pestrella said is “not designed to fight wildfires.”

“A firefight with multiple fire hydrants drawing water from the system for several hours is unsustainable,” Pestrella said in a news conference Wednesday. “This is a known fact.” Indeed, fire hydrants have also run dry in the case of other wildfires that spread to urban areas, including the 2017 Tubbs Fire, 2024’s Mountain Fire and 2023’s Maui wildfires. In these cases, firefighters have to rely on other water sources. For the Palisades Fire, LADWP brought in 19 water trucks, each with capacities of 4,000 gallons. “There is no lack of water flowing through our pipes and flowing to the Palisades area,” LADWP spokesperson Mia Rose Wong said in a statement to LAist. “Water remains available in Palisades, but is limited in areas at elevation impacting fire hydrants.” Tanks are commonly used across the LADWP system for both daily and emergency purposes. For reference, the million-gallon tanks are much smaller than LADWP’s major reservoirs, which can hold hundreds of millions, or even billions, of gallons of water (and are miles away from the Pacific Palisades).

Officials said that normally, emergency teams would rely more on air support like firefighting helicopters, which would lessen the strain on water tanks by using more water from other sources like above-ground reservoirs. However, high winds and a lack of air visibility have meant those firefighting operations were grounded Tuesday and Wednesday, Pestrella said. “County and city water reservoirs — open reservoirs — are available and on standby once [aerial firefighting] support becomes available,” he said.

https://laist.com/news/climate-environment/why-did-pacific-palisades-water-hydrants-run-dry

Comment: When news of hydrants running dry in LA came out, the conspiracy theories began flying as thick as the Santa Ana driven embers. Somebody had to be at fault. At the same time, others were expressing views like this.

“Mother Nature owned us,” says Orange County Fire Chief Brian Fennessy. “These fires were unstoppable,” this fire chief said. The dry conditions, the 100 mph winds that grounded ALL air support the first 27 hours, made these fires “unstoppable.” EVERY firefighter has said the same. You can choose to accept that hard truth or you can choose the easier path and be like Trump and Musk and too many others and just get political and blame someone.

So the fire chief says that the catastrophe was inevitable. Maybe it was. The Santa Ana winds predate the founding of Los Angeles. The weather patterns have been erratic for at least the last year. Heavy rains early last year brought greater vegetation growth and then the ensuing drought dried out all that vegetation. All that was known before the fires started. What was done to prepare for this inevitable catastrophe? What wasn’t done? What could have been done?

The hydrants running dry doesn’t surprise me. I doubt there are many, if any, municipal water systems that can maintain pressure when all hydrants are in continuous use. Last week my younger son experienced several days without water in Richmond. Actually he lives in east Henrico, but the Richmond system failure cascaded into a failure of all surrounding systems. The majority of the down time was spent recharging the systems to a level capable of maintaining water pressure. That took days. The Richmond system will need a lot of work, but I doubt they will rebuild the system to a level that will recharge a depleted system that quickly. No one in Richmond wants to pay the water rates or taxes to build a system that resilient. I doubt people in LA are willing to pay for a truly resilient system, either.

California has actually done a lot to prepare for such wildfires. I’m sure the investigations will discover plenty that they didn’t do and places where state, county and city officials dropped the ball. But I bet the bottom line is just how much government regulations, restrictions and spending for the good of the community are the people of California or any state willing to endure to be safe from such calamities. Or how much people are willing to take the risks, roll the dice and suck it up when they come up craps.

TTG

https://www.npr.org/2025/01/15/nx-s1-5256348/los-angeles-fires-safety-evacuation-improvement-preparation

This entry was posted in Culture and Society, Current Affairs, government, TTG. Bookmark the permalink.

32 Responses to What really happened with the Pacific Palisades water hydrants?

  1. Stefan says:

    The fact that people still live in areas regularly destroyed by hurricanes and other natural phenomenon tells me that people are willing to take that risk.

    I dont get it. Some of these places are literally sinking into the ocean, but people still move there.

  2. Lars says:

    What is happening in Southern California was predicted 30 years ago by scientists who were studying the climate and its changes. But it was generally ignored and now we have the results. I have been dealing with hurricanes for 50 years and there is no doubt that there are now more of them and they are bigger and more powerful. Whether this will wake up more people is questionable. At least I live in a city that is at the forefront of limiting damage from hurricanes by changing building codes. I have upgraded our house to the extent that I expect it to handle 200 mph winds. There is also talk in Florida that the insurance companies will not insure homes with shingle roofs anymore. As they are now finding out in CA, shingle roofs burn good too.

    • Fredrick says:

      Lars,

      No. The only climate change affecting fire management in CA was the Democrats taking control of all elected branches of the state government. Their incompetence and malfeasance if office is plain for everyone to see. There were no new reservoirs built to store water since the last one opened in 1979. That’s a lot longer than 30 years ago. There was the removal of 4 dams on the Klamath river touted by the environmental movement and the Governor of CA. This also had a significant impact on water management in the state.

      https://apnews.com/article/klamath-dam-california-removal-restoration-473a570024584c2e02837434e05693da

      The population of CA has risen 67% since 1979 to 40,000,000. Water usage rose accordingly. Fire risk went up a lot more due to where people moved. Driven by cost and regulations affecting housing – mostly restricting where it could be built.

      I have no idea who you are talking to in FL that is telling you insurance companies are not insuring homes with shingle roofs, as ours is making the HOA replace the current roof with the original shingle style roof using current grade shingles.

      • TTG says:

        Fredrick,

        The Democrats have only had solid control of the California government since 2011. That’s a lot of Republican government from 1979 to 2011.

        The Klamath River was never part of California’s State Water Project. Those dams were for hydroelectric power only.

        • Fred says:

          TTG,

          Newsom is the current governor. Before him was Jerry Brown, for the second round of two terms. Karen Bass was in the state house for a decade including a term as speaker before being a member of the US House for a decade. She’s mayor of one of the largest cities of the Republic with zero background managing anything larger than a campaign staff.

          “The Klamath Basin is the region in the U.S. states of Oregon and California drained by the Klamath River. It contains most of Klamath County and parts of Lake and Jackson counties in Oregon, and parts of Del Norte, Humboldt, Modoc, Siskiyou, and Trinity counties in California.”

          That’s a lot of water in a watershed that did more than run an electric turbine as it flowed to the Pacific.

          • TTG says:

            Fred,

            Like I said, the Democrats have been in charge since 2011. The last reservoir was opened under Brown’s first term.

            Water from the Klamath basin is not sent south through the State Water Project or any other pipeline or aqueduct system. The water of the Klamath Basin stays in the Klamath Basin.

        • Stefan says:

          For some they just want to sh*t on anything blue.

      • Lars says:

        Michael Yaworksy (Florida’s insurance commissioner) told a crowd of insurance executives. “It’s probably time to look past asphalt shingles … You know, these products that are guaranteed to last for 30 years. They don’t last for 30 years in Florida. They just don’t.”

        This is one source I got it from. If you have a shingle roof in Florida, no matter how new, you are in trouble. More than likely, you will be priced out of the market and replacements with shingles will be uninsured. I have been in the construction business for 45 years in Florida and as far I am concerned, your best roof is metal, which I have. Secondly, tile roofs. The problem with them is installation. Mix the mud wrong and you have a big problem.

      • Laura Wilson says:

        Lars, you probably want to do some research on water usage in LA. Peak water usage was in 1986…due to conservation and recapture, etc. LA now uses something like 17-20% less water even with the increased population.

        I live in Santa Barbara and have experienced at least 8 big fires…big and fast and unstoppable during the first 3-12 hours. Shingle roofs have been verboten in most of SoCal for years. What a lot of folks back east and in Florida simply do not grasp is that LA/Ventura/and especially Santa Barbara are backed by mountains. When the wind rolls down a 3,000 foot peak covered by dry chaparral toward the ocean and must go through houses, it generally gets its way. In Santa Barbara, we call the Pacific Ocean “the great Pacific firebreak.” There is simply no similarity of fire behavior to anything you have ever experienced…unless you have experienced a fire in a mountainous Mediterranean climate like Greece, for example.

        • Lars says:

          It would probably help if people there stopped growing fuel for fires. If you want to live in a desert, just accept that there is a limited choice of what to plant.

          • Stefan says:

            This already happens. For decades they have pushed planting native species and draught resistant vegetation. But as Laura pointed out it is the the mountains and winds that cause these to become so bad. Unless people are climbing steep mountains to plant gardens up there, it is the native vegetation that is burning. Desert landscaping your yards in the Southwest has been the normal for decades.

            For many they dont care about the facts, they just want to dump on anything perceived as blue. Funny when you consider much of the natural disasters in the US happen in red states. I dont see the red states concerned about socialism when they want their federal disaster aid money.

  3. babelthuap says:

    There is almost no mitigation strategy when the winds get that high. You have to wait until they die down. Another aspect I read about is wildlife like rabbits or rodents. One firefighter said he saw a rabbit running on fire.

    After the winds die down however it’s time to play catch up. I wasn’t there but listening to those who were, they said the management of water, specifically water trucks was lacking. The money that was cut from the budget could have been used for a mock up drill involving water trucks and firetrucks, specifically turn around time. The firetrucks could have been supplied with water and fuel 24/7. It would have been easy to do from what one water truck worker stated.

    Lots of lessons to be learned but this isn’t their first rodeo. I lived in SoCal decades ago. Those fires broke out every year in that area. It’s clearly obvious to me the people put in charge were incompetent and the people living there by and large equally as incompetent by putting people in charge cutting their fire mitigation budget.

    I witnessed the same thing during Katrina. Officials had no idea what to do. They had a plan but only on paper. It fell apart within minutes. Phone lines all down and the bus drivers hired to evacuate people quit. Why would they drive a bunch of unruly inner city people to a shelter? No. They are not doing that.

    • Fredrick says:

      babelthuap,

      The reports are that it was a 45-minute response time to the first reported fire. Fire department operations since it started have been atrocious. At least they have all the DEI bases covered. Now it is all the same media shills trying to save Newsom’s, and the CA democrat’s, reputations. I think we can safely say Newsom 2028 has as much chance of winning a democratic primary as Kamala.

    • Laura Wilson says:

      Gosh, you think all people in charge were incompetent…based on what? Lack of “total, immediate, instantaneous extinction of the fire?” I have seen firefighters and their supervisors step up in horrifying situations and create amazing on-the-spot responses. (Of course, those responses were gamed out ahead of time in “what if” scenarios.) Just because thousands of buildings burn, it doesn’t mean everyone was incompetent (that is such a 1st world, entitled American response). Shit happens…houses ignite each other…big (baseball-sized) embers fly for a mile to ignite houses ahead of the fire. There aren’t enough water trucks in the world to do that job that night.

      • Fred says:

        Laura,

        “Just because thousands of buildings burn…”

        Sounds like B29s fire bombing Tokyo. Which is what incompetence gave LA.

        “There aren’t enough ” operational water reservoirs full of water available. Fixed it for you. Too bad CA/LA politicians didn’t.

        • Laura Wilson says:

          Looks so easy from Florida…Florida! Flat Florida. Unless you are a native Californian or have fought a wind-driven fire in California, you might just want to chill out.

          I won’t tell you how to prepare for hurricanes (and California will continue to send you money to rebuild as the seas rise) and you can concentrate on Florida’s problems.

          • TonyL says:

            Laura Wilson,

            “Unless you are a native Californian or have fought a wind-driven fire in California, you might just want to chill out.”

            Amen. I’ve been here in Southern Cal for more than 40 years. People who have not seen wind-driven fires in California have seen nothing about the force of nature.

            “California will continue to send you money to rebuild as the seas rise”

            Could not have said it better.

          • Fred says:

            Laura,

            Proud graduate of FL sate fire college. (No I no longer do that) Read up on the forest fires here in the 90s and resulting regulatory changes in both forestry and fire management.

            Your government failed and telling others to stfu isn’t going to change those facts, or make them competent

      • leith says:

        Canada sent SuperScoopers,
        Mexico sent hundreds of firefighters,
        OR, WA, UT, NM, ID sent 160 firetrucks and crews,
        Wyoming and Nevada sent National Guard troops,
        NM sent DC-10 fire tankers,
        Feds sent eight Modular Aerial Fire Fighting equipped C-130s.

        MAGA sends insults.

        • Fred says:

          Leith,

          The fire department was 45 minutes in getting to the first fire. Had they shown up in half that time all those other support units would not have been needed and thousands of homes would not have been lost.

          • leith says:

            Poppycock Fred. It was 20 minutes, still to slow but not that slow if you consider the remoteness of where the fire started.

            Your viral 45 meme is based on one family’s report and they were not able to observe the entirety of the response.

          • Fred says:

            leith,

            You mean everything on the internet is not what it seems?

  4. leith says:

    Sal Mercogliano has a youtube video on the fires that is worth watching. Title is offputting because it’s mostly about using seawater for fighting fires.

    But he does spend some time on the hydrants running dry. According to Sal, the hydrants are tied into the same water system that provided water for homes and business. So when evacuees from the 5000 + homes and businesses did not turn off the water before leaving, and those structures burned to the ground those pipes were wide open putting a huge drain on the hydrants and water supply. He says San Francisco learned this lesson over a hundred years ago when the fires from the 1906 earthquake burned down the city. They had the same problem of hydrants running dry. So what SF did was to adopt a separate hydrant system not tied into the general water supply to be used solely for fighting fires. Those SF hydrants were bigger with a much larger gpm flow rate. Those SF hydrants also had a capability to pump in seawater from the ocean if the reservoirs ran dry.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1N2BwcAT-s

    Good video, 18 minutes, worth watching.

    • Fredrick says:

      leith,

      ” San Francisco learned this lesson over a hundred years ago when the fires from the 1906 earthquake burned down the city.”

      I wonder if anyone in California learned lessons on fire management in the last 100 year…….

  5. Jim. says:

    A CSI Mind would think…
    What a Coincidence…Considering..
    Timing..The Last Week of Bidens Power over Diverse Players..Covert..Actions
    The Will and Power to Carry Them Out..on ALL Enemys Proven..On Record.

    Domestic and Politicans..Rivals..Back Stabbers..in His Enemy Book..

    The Location..California..An Area Symbolic of Those Enemys ..Thier Turf..Ploosy

    The Data Base ..That Covers all The Status of California..Geo/Political and People

    The Amazing Timing ..and Conditions for a Perfect Fire Storm..Affecting Every One..

    The Fact they Know Where The First Palisaids Fire.. Starting High in the Hills..that one was put out…Ironic the next Started 130 yards away..Right Below the Power Lines…and
    Visible in Photographs…A Smart Move if Arson..

    It will All Be Blamed on The Power Company..and Politicans..on the Bad List.. HIS,,,
    We Know All the Names..yes..O Mama..We sure Do..
    The Mayor.of L.A,.just happened to Be Invited to a Keg Party..In Africa..at the
    American Embassy..Thank You State Department.. Dossiers..Collision..Wink Wink.

    Besides…..The Trail of Fire and Ashes..He Left Behind..Is More Proof..Of How..When..and Where…They Started The Fires..and Burned..and burned and
    Burned..for Years..Perhaps The Green Beret Knew.. That.. was The “Wake Up” he
    knew was Coming…Perhaps… Perhaps…Afterall..Its all on TV..All of it..Sad Stuff

  6. morongobill says:

    Not a word in the article about the reservoir that services Pacific Palisades being bone dry and had been for close to 2 years. Think there might have been a better handle on this fire if it had been full?

  7. Keith Harbaugh says:

    TTG wrote:
    “I doubt people in LA are willing to pay for a truly resilient system, either.”

    The issue is
    Whom do Democrats prioritize?
    It is well documented that Dems spend literally billions of dollars on illegal immigrants.
    While they cut the budget on what I would regard as their basic responsibilities of public safety: fire and police.
    While they chant “Cops are pigs.”
    They should look in the mirror.

  8. Keith Harbaugh says:

    Not really.

    A similar sentiment is being expressed today with
    “ACAB – All Cops are Bastards”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACAB
    Again, derogating the police.

  9. Jim. says:

    Same 60s People…Degenerated By Some Filtered Process…
    But At That Time..I got a Nice Colection of PIG Belt Buckles..Tie Bars..and
    Really Liked my BLTs..

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