“Clever girl” – TTG

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It’s a phrase used in countless TV and movie scenes. I find it an apt phrase to describe this particular coronavirus, even though most don’t consider that protein wrapped string of RNA to be sentient. Unlike Ebola or HIV, this coronavirus is not extremely deadly to its host, but it has a far more efficient and effective strategy for infection. This story from France illustrates the cleverness of this virus.

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(Reuters) – A French hospital which has retested old samples from pneumonia patients discovered that it treated a man who had COVID-19 as early as Dec. 27, nearly a month before the French government confirmed its first cases. Yves Cohen, head of resuscitation at the Avicenne and Jean Verdier hospitals in the northern suburbs of Paris, told BFM TV that scientists had retested samples from 24 patients treated in December and January who tested negative for the flu. "Of the 24, we had one who was positive for COVID-19 on Dec. 27," he told the news channel on Sunday.

The samples had all initially been collected to detect flu using PCR tests, the same genetic screening process that can also be used to detect the presence of the novel coronavirus in patients infected at the time the sample is collected. Each sample was retested several times to ensure there were no errors, he added. Neither Cohen nor his team were immediately available for comment on Monday.

France, which has seen almost 25,000 people die from the virus since March 1, confirmed its first three COVID-19 cases on Jan. 24, including two patients in Paris and another in the southwestern city of Bordeaux.

Cohen said it was too early to know if the patient whose Dec. 27 test was COVID-19 positive is France's "patient zero". Knowing who was the first is critical to understanding how the virus spread. Cohen said the patient had survived and that a first investigation to trace the first contamination has been carried out. "He was sick for 15 days and infected his two children, but not his wife, who works in a supermarket.  (Reuters)

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Just as we’ve found the covid-1 virus has been circulating in the US longer than we first thought, the same is true in Europe. Who knows how long it was  silently circulating in China before making its presence known in Wuhan. Paris Match has a story about how this “patient zero” case in France may have found its way from China. 

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“The patient in question has not traveled to Wuhan, the cradle of the epidemic in China, and does not know how he may have been infected. He transmitted the virus to his two children but not to his wife. Doctor Yves Cohen raised the possibility that the latter had contracted the virus at her workplace, the fishmonger's supermarket, and had developed the disease asymptomatically before transmitting it to her husband. After having thought for a while that she had been able to handle fish of Chinese origin, the doctors learned "by chance" that she worked alongside sushi vendors, some of whom were of Chinese origin.”  (Paris Match)

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This asymptomatic infection is widespread as we’re finding out and is a key factor in the evolutionary success of the virus. If all the virus did was spread wildly throughout the host population (that means us) with little effect, there would be nothing to worry about. Unfortunately, it is devastating to a small percent of the population affecting a wide variety of bodily functions. Still manageable. However, what are the long-term effects of asymptomatic infections? We won’t know for a while whether these asymptomatic infections cause long-term damage in their hosts’ pulmonary, vascular, immunological and/or neurological systems. Clever girl, indeed.

TTG  

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN22G20L

https://www.parismatch.com/Actu/Sante/Coronavirus-un-premier-cas-en-France-des-le-27-decembre-selon-un-professeur-1684176

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48 Responses to “Clever girl” – TTG

  1. Rick James Merlotti says:

    Girl? That’s sexist!
    Kidding…

  2. Deap says:

    You made a very good case for Covid-19 anti-body testing, which is now more widely available, whether you have to pay for it out of pocket or not. We need a wider data pool. Too much damage already been triggered based upon lack of data and lack of scientific literacy; but unfortunately a surfeit of partisan political weaponizing.
    “Do you want to be safe or do you want to die” is not the right question we should still be asking at this point. Or letting others put those words into our mouths.
    (NB:: be sure to not self-inoculate by sticking one’s own fingers into one’s own mouth, nose and/or eyes. Still a no-no to stick anything potentially contaminated into our own mouths)
    The Rise of the Screaming Harridan Karens is the scariest part of this virus meltdown so far. They lurk in grocery stores ready to pounce is you even remotely violate “their space”. Is this what ‘women’s liberation” did for us?
    What lives will these proliferating Karens have once Covid-19 passes on to becoming just one more slightly abnormal flu season? Camus certainly gave us clues The Plague – finding life and meaning in the transitory world feeding off other’s miseries.

  3. exiled off mainstreet says:

    The early date of the infection, especially considering it probably took some time, maybe two or three weeks, for the pneumonia to develop actually may cast some doubt on the accepted Chinese origins story of the virus. Other tested materials from patients in other parts of Europe, and in the US need to be reexamined to justify the assumptions being made.

  4. exiled off mainstreet,
    We also don’t know how long this was stewing in China and in what strain. It may have been asymptomatic before it started sickening and killing people.

  5. turcopolier says:

    TTG
    To shut down and nearly destroy the economy was a foolish and infantile reaction to danger. Old people like you and me should have taken shelter and our chances as we personally always did before. Since when has the “greater good” ceased to be the iron principle of rationality? One of the reasons I put up the two snippets from my WBS fiction was as an illustration of how much better people our ancestors were.

  6. exiled off mainstreet says:

    I fully concur. The deaths resulting from the economic damage and deaths from direct collateral damage of the lockdowns will be exponentially greater than the deaths from the virus. TTG’s point is also a valid one.

  7. Charles Schulte says:

    Need to search the internet for articles on strange disease from VAPING, read about the flu like symptoms and the attack on the lungs. Doctors were saying they had never scene before, thought it was something the people were adding to the vape. Suddenly you do not hear about it anymore. Hum

  8. will.271828 says:

    let’s play devil’s advocate contra to the Manatee narrative:
    It’s all the ChiComms fault for scaring the whole world to death. All that building a 10,000 bed hospital in ten days, welding people shut to enforce quarantines, all that mask wearing. Surely all that stuff was to entice and incite the rest of the world into over-reacting and shutting down the world economy! Cui bono? They’ve now got cheap oil and are gobbling marked down equities, aren’t they? Fiendish design.

  9. Fred says:

    “…what are the long-term effects of asymptomatic infections?”
    A rising public awareness of the lack of integrity of carreer officials at yet another 3 letter federal agency. In the short term it serves as yet another excuse for draconian state policies that will result in the destruction of the economy and thus the Republic. Meanwhile there is plenty of money to be made:
    “The COVID-19 Treatment Panel of NIH evaded disclosure of the massive financial links of its members to Gilead Sciences, the manufacturer of a competing drug remdesivir. Among those who failed to disclose such links are 2 out of 3 of its co-chairs.”
    Original source: https://meaninginhistory.blogspot.com/2020/05/some-good-covid-reads.html
    How dare you use this forbidden cure:
    “COVID-19 Patients Given Unproven Drug In Texas Nursing Home In ‘Disconcerting’ Move”https://www.npr.org/2020/04/10/830348837/covid-19-patients-given-unproven-drug-in-texas-nursing-home-garnering-criticism
    “Nearly 20% of this panel is employed by or has investment interests in Gilead.”
    My, imagine that.
    https://aidsinfo.nih.gov/contentfiles/lvguidelines/glchunk/glchunk_274.pdf
    I’m sure the Basement Barrier will keep Biden safe throughout the fray of competing naratives until the election can be rigged in favor of a maleable politician not suffering from dimentia nor having a backbone.

  10. Yeah, Right says:

    TTG, the question you pose about asymptomatic spread was also asked by Anderson in the article that killed off the “genetically-modified” argument: …”we propose two scenarios that can plausibly explain the origin of SARS-CoV-2: (i) natural selection in an animal host before zoonotic transfer; and (ii) natural selection in humans following zoonotic transfer.”
    If (i) then it is all but certain that the virus jumped species in Wuhan, and people then started presenting to the hospital almost immediatelyafter.
    If (ii) then it could have passed over into the human genepool years ago, anywhere, and Wuhan’s importance is merely that it was where the virus first mutated into something deadly.
    There are going to be more of these revelations as respiratory physicians test old samples. It will only take one positive result dated 2018 or early-2019 to put paid to the “It escaped from that Wuhan Lab” argument.
    I think Mike Pompeo is being very foolish to push that claim as aggressively as he has, precisely because every blood sample in a minus-80 freezer anywhere in the world is a potential hand grenade ready to blow up in his face.

  11. Yeah, Right says:

    will.271828 the problem with that argument is that it assumes that the Chinese were able to conceive and carry out a fiendish Fu-Manchu plot within a matter of days.
    As in: they could not have predicted an outbreak, but when one appeared they took advantage of it by immediately enacting the biggest and most elaborate psych-op that the world has ever seen. And got away with it.
    Brainiac could not have done better.
    It requires a level of efficiency and cunning that, in all honesty, goes beyond “devil’s advocacy” and into the realm of “comix book supervillainy”.

  12. Godfree Roberts says:

    Trump’s top health official and Human Genome hero, Dr. Francis Collins. Collins, director of the US National Institutes of Health, said the virus might have been spreading quietly in humans for years, or even decades, without causing a detectable outbreak. Dr. Collins, a physician-geneticist, is noted for his landmark discoveries of disease genes and his leadership of the international Human Genome Project. He served as director of the National Human Genome Research Institute at NIH from 1993-2008. Before coming to NIH, Dr. Collins was a Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator at the University of Michigan. He is an elected member of the National Academy of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences, was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in November 2007, and received the National Medal of Science in 2009.

  13. turcopolier says:

    Godfree Roberts
    “the virus might have been spreading quietly in humans for years, or even decades, without causing a detectable outbreak.” Quite possible. This only adds to the possibility that the population is far more widely infected than Faucirx thinks but less mortally. Are you going to give us your pedigree as well?

  14. Terence Gore says:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.29.069054v1.full.pdf
    clever clever girls
    Summary
    We have developed an analysis pipeline to facilitate real-time mutation tracking in SARS-CoV-2,
    focusing initially on the Spike (S) protein because it mediates infection of human cells and is the
    target of most vaccine strategies and antibody-based therapeutics. To date we have identified
    fourteen mutations in Spike that are accumulating. Mutations are considered in a broader
    phylogenetic context, geographically, and over time, to provide an early warning system to
    reveal mutations that may confer selective advantages in transmission or resistance to
    interventions. Each one is evaluated for evidence of positive selection, and the implications of
    the mutation are explored through structural modeling. The mutation Spike D614G is of urgent
    concern; it began spreading in Europe in early February, and when introduced to new regions it
    rapidly becomes the dominant form. Also, we present evidence of recombination between
    locally circulating strains, indicative of multiple strain infections. These finding have important
    implications for SARS-CoV-2 transmission, pathogenesis and immune interventions.

  15. Artemesia says:

    @ Fred, re Gilead: A billboard in my (mixed-income, high % POC) neighborhood motivated research into that Pharma firm: The billboard depicts a young Black male holding a rainbow umbrella; text says in Big Bold: “Love Passionately.” Smaller letters advise: take PrEP, (it might say something about financial assistance available).
    The PrEP regimen involves Gilead’s drug Truveda
    https://www.truvada.com/how-to-get-truvada-for-prep/truvada-cost
    Gilead has donated thousands of the pills to the federal gov, but government pays for the required prescription/distribution/monitoring by physicians, and a cost multiples of times the cost of the pills.
    Here we have Gilead encouraging risky behavior and advertising its drug to curb the effects of that behavior, at taxpayer expense.
    Fauci’s involvement with HIV Aids is highly controversial.
    Same Fauci, in league with Gates, is behind a lockdown forcing un-sick, not-risk-taking persons to abstain from normal life functions, then advising the use of a drug produced by Gilead to cure that not-so-virulent disease.
    It stinks.
    PS Africans are using the herb Artemisia to combat Covid 19. You may have the plant in your front garden, as I do: it’s also known as Silvermound or Wormwood.

  16. Master Slacker says:

    I think we have the perfect coming attraction to make her a star: Space Force

  17. stueeeeee says:

    First, the source of the virus was the Chinese wet market. Remember bat soup. Then, the Chinese claimed the US Army brought the virus. Now, the virus has been around “for years, even decades”. Yeah, right.
    Of course, the only thing we definitively “know” or are being told that we “know” is that it is a naturally derived virus…little else. A naturally occurring virus that scared world leaders to shut everything down. Heck, even to inquire if the virus is bioengineered is dismissed without a thought. It is unlikely we will ever know for at least a couple of decades the virus’s likely unnatural origins…like the H1N1. If the Chinese and its sympathizers have any say, we will never know.
    Funny the “clever girl” quote came from a movie where scientists genetically reincarnated dinosaurs.

  18. Jose says:

    This timeline fits in with an earlier spread from the lab:
    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bethbaumann/2020/05/02/leaked-intelligence-report-details-chinas-blatant-coronavirus-coverup-n2568064
    WHO really screwed up by taking China’s side of the story, many see it as cover-up.
    The cover-up makes it hard to control the hardcore elements.
    BTW, I also own GILEAD stock. lol

  19. Yeah, Right says:

    Jose, that document has been disowned by both the Australian intelligence community and their British equivalent, which means that two of the Five Eyes are saying the report is a load of bollocks.
    And it is.
    Note this howler:
    December 6, 2019
    “Five days after a man linked to Wuhan’s seafood market presented pneumonia-like symptoms, his wife contracts it, suggesting human to human transmission.”
    The author can not back that statement up.
    “his wife contracts it”? Really? Or did they mean that she presented to the hospital five days after he did?
    How, exactly, did they determine when she was infected (i.e. “contracts it”)?
    Starts to show symptoms, yes, that can be known to the day.
    But “contracts it”? Really? What if the man had gone to the market to, you know, buy something to eat, and the wife eats it?
    That sentence is sloppy writing. Very sloppy. If that is a verbatim line from the report then it was written by a hack.

  20. Yeah, Right says:

    “Of course, the only thing we definitively “know” or are being told that we “know” is that it is a naturally derived virus…little else. ”
    Agreed. This paper published in Nature appears to have put paid to all “genetically-modified” theories.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9
    Beyond that everything is still speculation.
    “Heck, even to inquire if the virus is bioengineered is dismissed without a thought.”
    No, not “without a thought”. The paper in Nature has put paid to competing arguments.
    To continue with that line of inquiry is now akin to searching for fairies at the bottom of your garden.
    Sure, you can do it. Go right ahead, nobody will stop you.
    But the US IC and Mike Pompeo aren’t going to join you on your fairy-quest because they have concluded that you are looking for something that isn’t there, and they’ve got better things to do.
    “If the Chinese and its sympathizers have any say, we will never know.”
    I don’t agree with that. The geneticists and the epidemiologists are in a race to determine if the virus was already “deadly to humans” in bats before it made the jump to humans, or if it made the jump to humans a while ago and then mutated into its current, deadly form.
    One way or another that question will be answered, and the Chinese are not going to be able to stop them.

  21. JJackson says:

    Terence
    I think the S D614G mutation is a red hearing, which has come up before with claims of higher virulence. This mutation occurred right at the beginning of the outbreak and split the phylogenic tree into two halves. Most of the the early Wuhan/Hubei sequences were of type D and they seeded the early Washing State and other West coast cases. The G strain however seeded the first French, Italian and East Coast sequences which subsequently caused the widest spread and have been the most heavily sequenced. Both strains are holding their own and neither is displacing the other and there is no statistical evidence that one is spreading faster, or is more virulent than the other. There have been 3 million plus confirmed cases but only about 5000 sequences and these are very heavily skewed towards the richer western nations (which happen to be on the S branch) and some countries disproportionally sequence more than others e.g there are 82 from Luxembourg but 62 from Italy.
    All
    Every sequence found to date fit neatly on the tree showing they all came from one source. If the virus had been circulating in humans before Nov/Dec last year then they have not been sequenced and have not played any part in the observed pandemic. They may have been circulating in a poorly adapted form, to humans, and then acquired some mutations that made them far better adapted and exploded. The sequence data makes it unlikely that they are happily circulating in any animal that might be found in wet markets or there would have been further introductions to humans which would show up as a new branch on the phylogenic tree, as there must have been on-going mutations in that reservoir, independent of the mutations found on the human tree. All of this points to a single introduction from a source that has limited contact with humans and is poorly sampled. My best guess is if we sample bat caves, so we have thousands of bat sequences, we will find the reservoir.

  22. Fred says:

    Artemesia,
    So controversial he kept his job for four decades running.

  23. Terence Gore says:

    J Jackson
    It may well be. I really don’t know. My main worry is that this is a biologic weapon and has been introduced. My secondary worry is the virus has the capability to go latent in the host and reemerge. If that is possible the reopening of the country is sure to bring a second wave.

  24. JJackson says:

    Terence
    Why it is not a bio-weapon is very difficult to explain but we humans do not have enough knowledge, yet, to be able to predict what effect any given change will have. We can engineer changes but to find out what effect they will have we would have to infect large numbers of people and observe them under controlled conditions. This virus has thousands of changes from the nearest known sequence and the Wuhan lab has non-Chinese researchers, including Americans, working in it.
    If your second concern is that it may lay dormant in humans and then reemerge I think that is very unlikely in a corona virus. There are retroviruses that can do that but it is not a feature of CoVs. Where the danger lies is in the fact we have taken a virus, endemic to a bat cave in China, and spread it all over the globe giving it the opportunity to find another non-human host which it would never have encountered naturally. If it finds a home in an African bat or American racoon it may become endemic in that species and then start new pandemics in years to come, after it has adapted to a point where any immunity we have to SARS-2 will not protect us from SARS-3 or 4.

  25. Yeah, Right says:

    Some very serious pushback by the Aussie intelligence officials and diplomats regarding that “Five-Eyes” report:
    https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australian-concern-over-us-spreading-unfounded-claims-about-wuhan-lab-20200506-p54qhp.html
    That Mike Pompeo, what a character, always playing those practical jokes on his pals!

  26. walrus says:

    What are you going to say if lockdowns are removed and that triggers a massive second wave about 3-4 weeks later?
    That’s right, blame Fauci and Birx.

  27. turcopolier says:

    walrus
    I am going to say that it was the right thing to do.

  28. Mark Logan says:

    The REALLY clever bugs don’t kill their hosts. The common cold and flu bugs don’t engender full-scale war against them.
    There is an old book that describes the basics of the immune system in a way that laymen can understand. Had to read it in high school and noticed it has been re-published by the author, Glasser, in 2012. Reads like a science fiction story, fantastically well equipped aliens against fantastically well equipped aliens. The spooky sophistication of our own immune system seem as alien as the bugs it fights. Worth a read, and lord knows a lot of us have spare time right now.
    “The Body Is The Hero”

  29. Artemesia says:

    Fred -” Fauci, the Bernie Madoff of Science”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=344&v=5wHzrYtV5lw&feature=emb_logo

    Another curiosity: Dr. Anne Schuchat was “the face of CDC” for the SARS. She spoke for and with Trump several times between Oct 2019 and Mar 13, 2020, saying that “Covid is more contagious but less dangerous than SARS” On Feb 26 she said, “It is under control.”
    On Mar 19, Schuchat had been cleared by Homeland Security to be interviewed on Yahoo Finance radio. At the last minute, Mike Pence demanded that the interview be canceled. iirc Mar 19 was the day Fauci took over.

    OR — W Engdahl on Fauci: https://qoshe.com/new-eastern-outlook/f-william-engdahl/the-remarkable-doctor-a-fauci/70532207
    Maybe all these no-names are “conspiracy theorists.”
    Maybe they’re not.
    Maybe Fauci is part of a “conspiracy” at the highest levels.

  30. Tom says:

    Glad more people are putting a spot light on this early occurrence of SARS-CoV-2 in France. MSM has convinced 99% of the Public that it all started in Wuhan in January. The sad truth is that were are still groping in the dark on this though the view in Plato’s Cave is quite convincing.
    Many complain that we do not have enough data. Well a quick check of how much is spent on Project Bio Shield, NAMRU and other BS should dispel the notion that there is no money for data collection. It is more likely that there is no willingness to collect data as was shown in Washington State with Dr Helen Chu. The excuses used in that case were kindergarten level as is the response to this Corona Theater.
    PS: Came here thanks to a comment on Moon of Alabama

  31. Fred says:

    Artemesia,
    You are lying by putting quotations after my name which I never wrote. Let us all know who is saying that about Madoff/Fauci, other than you. Perhaps you are just blowing smoke.

  32. Yeah, Right says:

    Fat Mike has begun to backpedal:
    https://www.state.gov/secretary-michael-r-pompeo-with-joe-kernen-andrew-sorkin-and-rebecca-quick-of-cnbcs-squawk-box/
    Pompeo: “Joe, look, you know this; one man’s direct is another man’s circumstantial. Here’s what we know for sure. We know for sure that this virus originated in Wuhan, China and that the disease emanated around the world and the Chinese Communist Party covered this up.”
    Annnnnnnnd… it’s gone.
    Read the entire transcript, and marvel how nowhere in it does Fat Mike address the claim that this virus escaped from that lab.
    Not. Once.
    He attempts to obfuscate by talking about SARS virus escaping from a Chinese lab (no idea what he is talking about there), but SARS happened in 2002.
    I’m confident that the Land Whale has no evidence whatsoever to back up his initial claim that this escaped from a lab, and this backpedalling suggests to me that he has just now seen convincing evidence that rules out that lab.

  33. Artemesia says:

    My mistake, Fred, in formatting the comment. Apologies. There was no attempt on my part to “lie” by seemingly linking your name to a quote taken from the linked video.
    HAD anyone viewed the linked video, they would have heard James T Harris on talkradio550 KFYI interview Dr. Moskovits, who worked for Fauci and tried to warn authorities of improprieties in his labs. Either Harris or Moskovits made the quoted statement.
    HOWEVER, it is not possible for SST readers to view that interview because Youtube deleted it only a few hours after I listened to it, at 2:00 in the morning. Unfortunately, I did not take notes.
    To be clear: Fred did NOT say that “Fauci is the Bernie Madoff of science;” that was the takeaway I recalled from Harris’s interview of Dr. Moscovits. If I recall correctly, she was jailed for reasons unclear to me, involving her attempt to expose Fauci’s misdeeds.
    (I also recall that Moscovits said that wearing a mask is absurd, since it recirculates germs into one’s own system rather than dispersing them relatively harmlessly. Francis Collins appeared before a Senate committee this morning and made a similar point: if he was seated 6′ from the next nearest person, wearing a mask was redundant.)
    Mr. Engdahl’s review of Fauci’s career does explore the ways in which Fauci has benefited and retained that long career, through left-than forthcoming methods.

  34. Fred says:

    Artemesia,
    Thanks the clarification. There are plenty of videos being taken down by youtube, some are obviously egregious frauds, though I can’t say about the one you mention.
    Fauci, at a minimum, looks like an example of a “career professional” who is loyal to the organization rather than the goals of the organization. (Jerry “Pournelle’s iron law of bureaucracy”: In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control and those dedicated to the goals the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely.) The red tape, whether the need for approval of hand cleaner, hydroxychloriquine, the testing thereof, the alternative drugs, waivers for masks and ventilators, etc. The alleged NIH whistleblower and his complaint are another example. He knows best, the rules can’t be changed except by the mandarins, and so on. It’s an attitude prevalent througout the federal government. A cleaning similar to that of the Augean stables is needed.

  35. Yeah, Right says:

    Artemesia, I would be very careful about placing any weight on anything that Judy Mikovits has to say.
    Until a few days ago I had never heard of her, but even so it took less than 5 minutes with Dr Google to come across this:
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/chi-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-paper-10032011-story.html
    It really isn’t a good idea for a documentary to open with an extended interview with an “expert” without anyone doing any due diligence on her.
    But I could be charitable: her known predilection for making up data doesn’t necessarily invalidate her accusations against Fauci.
    After all, what would be her motive for doing so?
    Anthony Fauci, Elected Fellow, American Association for the Advancement of Science.
    Hmmmm. I wonder if the editors of Science would respond to accusations of “faked data” by turning to a distinguished Fellow of its parent organization and asking them to investigate?
    I know I would….
    A burning desire for revenge is a powerful motive, especially in someone who has a track-record of making s**t up.

  36. Fred says:

    Yeah right,
    “making up data” which is not what the CDC is doing by counting every death where Covid 19 is present as being a death caused by the virus, that’s just data manipulation. Fortunately for all of us climate change is settled sciene, those people would never make up data. But then we have 12 years! if we aren’t all dead from the China virus first, which apparently is no longer killing people in its country of origin.

  37. Yeah, Right says:

    Fred, the CDC guidelines for filling in a death certificate is here:
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf
    The money-shot is this:
    “If COVID–19 played a role in the death, this condition should be specified on the death certificate. In many cases, it is likely that it will be the UCOD, as it can lead to various lifethreatening conditions, such as pneumonia and acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS). In these cases, COVID–19 should be reported on the lowest line used in Part I with the other conditions to which it gave rise listed on the lines above it.”
    (UCOD = underlying cause of death)
    COVID-19 has to have “played a role in the death”. It is not enough that it be merely present, which is what you are claiming.
    It has to have Played. A. Role. In. The. Death.

  38. Eric Newhill says:

    Yeah, Right,
    Stop pretending you know how the real world works.
    “played a role in the death” is a doctor’s opinion – a hurried busy doctor who has incentive to please the hospital administration who, in turn, is financially incentivized to label as many deaths as possible as being covid (they get paid more for that).
    So a 90 year old has a heart attack and dies. He’s tested and the virus is present. That will be labeled a covid death. I know this for a fact because I manage an analytical team at a Fortune 100 healthcare insurance company and we are looking at the data available to us, which is real time data on claims, etc and is superior to what the CDC has available to it. I see this with my own eyes. Are you going to call me a liar again?
    And your relevant experience is what exactly?

  39. Fred says:

    Yeah,
    Thank you comrade for linking to the CDC form. I don’t see the link to the State of NY forms (or other states) for recording death, nor the directions from the State of NY (or other states) on how to perform an autopsy, which would prove cause of death, nor if autopsies can even be performed. But by all means please continue to provide the me with your fine University of Sydney based insights on the effectiveness of US Government “guidelines” for filling in a death certificate. You apparently don’t understand the CDC is not recieving federal death certificates but numbers reported by states to the CDC. Maybe you have some special audit source that can verify the accuracy of all states reporting their information to the CDC.

  40. Fred says:

    Eric,
    His relevant experience is being a professional troll spout procommunist agitprop, provoking commenters on blogs having some influence and discrediting people when possible.

  41. Yeah, Right says:

    Eric Newhill “”played a role in the death” is a doctor’s opinion”
    Indeed it is, thank you for telling me exactly the same thing as the CDC Guideline: “Similar to many other diagnoses, a cause-of-death statement is an informed medical opinion that should be based on sound medical judgment drawn from clinical training and experience, as well as knowledge of current disease states and local trends”
    “So a 90 year old has a heart attack and dies. He’s tested and the virus is present. That will be labeled a covid death.”
    No. The guideline states that Covid-19 is only to be added to Part 1 of the death certificate if it is the UCOD.
    Covid-19 is not an UCOD of a cardiac arrest. Under the guidelines the place for Covid-19 would be in Part II.
    “Are you going to call me a liar again?”
    I am going to say the same thing I said last time: you are wrong.

  42. Yeah, Right says:

    Fred: “You apparently don’t understand the CDC is not recieving federal death certificates but numbers reported by states to the CDC.”
    You know, this is what happens when Fred decides to tag-team Eric (which, apparently, is a common occurrence).
    The last time Eric attempted to browbeat me on this topic his “proof” consisted of a link to this:
    https://www.globalresearch.ca/hospitals-getting-paid-more-label-cause-death-coronavirus/5709720
    It is an interview with Senator Scott Jensen, and that video begins with the interviewer quoting the CDC guidelines and then continues on that basis.
    So do I consider those guidelines relevant to this disagreement?
    Yeah, I do. And so does Eric. And so does Senator Scott Jensen.
    You don’t? Well, gosh, why should I care?

  43. Eric Newhill says:

    Yeah right,
    How do you become a professional troll? Did you apply somewhere? Or were you recruited? Genuinely curious. Do you work for the CDC? China? Avaaz? Other?
    Come on man, we have your number; might as well us something interesting for once. IMO, your journey into pro troll-hood would be very good reading.

  44. turcopolier says:

    All
    I caution all of you against being drawn into ad hominem fights by trolls. I tolerate a few trolls here to provide someone to argue with but their goal is to disrupt. Remember that.

  45. walrus says:

    Re Trolls – more heat than light.

  46. Yeah, Right says:

    Colonel, the “ad hominem fights” are strictly one-way.
    I try very hard to avoid resorting to personal insult, precisely because I know that is the quickest way to being banned.
    I am not “drawing” anyone into “ad-hominem fights”, Eric and Fred are doing that on their own volition, for their own ill-tempered reasons.

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