Trump thinks he is a friend of Israel? He has just screwed Israel out of any chance for a peace agreement with the Palestinians. Urged on by the arch Zionists like Kushner he came to believe that the status of Jerusalem was the Gordian Knot blocking movement toward a peace settlement. In the best "Art of the Deal" fashion he has now acted to remove this issue frozen in amber from the negotiating table in the belief that this will restore fluidity to the situation. IMO he is wrong. This is not a business deal.
The difficulty is that Al-Quds (The Holy) i.e., Jerusalem means far, far more to the Muslims than he understands, or that anyone of significance in the US government evidently understands. Jerusalem is for the Muslims God's Holy City, as holy in its utter possession by God as Mecca and Medina. Have we missed the fact that the overseas intervention force of the IRGC is called the "Quds" force? The Palestinian brigade fighting alongside the SAA is the "Quds Brigade." Years ago I was in Riyadh with a delegation of rich American Jews, all of them "soft" Zionists. At the US Embassy they asked if Saudis cared about Jerusalem and were confidently told that the Saudi interest was minimal. We went to the foreign ministry where I told the minister, Saud al-Feisal, what had been said at the embassy. He grew visibly agitated and told us that that was certainly not the case and that his family and government would NEVER abandon the holy city. On the same trip we were hosted for dinner and a chat by the "Young President's Club" (whatever it was called). These were relatively young men who had made a lot of money even by Saudi standards At the panel discussion after the meal I raised the same point. Several cried out "what did you say?" So, I repeated it in Arabic. There was a moment of silence and then a mighty tirade from around the room as these billionaires made it clear that they would never accept that their government should give up the right of the 'Umma" to Jerusalem.
The Catholic Church believes in patience as a virtue. It continues to discreetly maintain that the UN Partition of Palestine in 1947 is the only legal status established for Jerusalem. That partition made Jerusalem an international city under UN control. The Church will maintain that position while waiting to see if Israel lasts as a country for more than a couple of hundred years.
So now we will see – Will there be violence? Will the Arab states adjust their relations with regard to Israel? Will Turkey call for action against Israel at the OIC meeting that Erdogan has called for at mid-month? Will the Muslims ever trust the US again to act as an honest broker? Dennis Ross badly damaged our credibility. Is it completely gone – perhaps forever? Will the Muslims accept Zionist possession of the Holy City? We will see. pl
Colonel,
Inside the cabinet:
Pence argued in the meeting it was past time for the U.S. to recognize the 70-year reality that Jerusalem is the country’s center of government.
Chief of Staff John Kelly and UN Ambassador Nikki Haley also recommended that Trump overturn U.S. policy and publicly acknowledge Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, the person said. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and Secretary of Defense James Mattis recommended against the move.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-06/jerusalem-divides-trump-team-and-complicates-kushner-peace-plan
Pat – You are spot on in your analysis. There is no way the U.S. or Israel can reverse this announcement. The hubris of Israel will make the situation even worse by starting to impose more and more restrictions on Muslim visitation to Haram esh-Sharif. I’m not sure how much violence this announcement will provoke but the resentments it raises will last forever.
Not only is this announcement the death knell of a Palestinian Peace Agreement but at the ground level of Muslim countries, the name of the U.S. is forever tarnished. I don’t understand why Trump did this – he gains nothing except maybe a few Jewish votes and potentially loses American influence in countries around the world and kills any chance for his desired peace agreement.
Col: The most remarkable line in Trump’s speech was his statement that we support a two state solution acceptable to both sides. Essentially, we will be happy if both sides to agree to something.
So Palestinian rights have slid to “aspirations” and are now “support when they agree with the Israelis.”
I support Trump’s final puncturing of the myth of American “good faith” peace brokering. That product is way past its sell-by date.
I don’t think there’s much any of these Muslims can do about it. Hezbollah may deter Israel’s unilateral extra-territorial hijinks, but it can’t existentially threaten Israel yet so long as the Jewish state continues to enjoy American backing. There’s definitely enough juice left in the GOP base for another war if Israel’s *existence* is called into question. On the democratic side, the J-left will join the war wagon too despite opposition from an increasingly brown base.
Given the intractable nature of the Palestinian-Israeli dispute, only tectonic geopolitical shifts will resolve the problem imo. I don’t think this qualifies as such a shift.
“This is nothing less than the recognition of reality.” Donald J. Trump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=889&v=fiOZc_uGigY
Now, the fiction of a two state solution is removed and Jewish State
of Israel will be forced to acknowledge it is an apartheid state as
currently constituted.
Down this road, there maybe a one state solution with Palestinians given full rights of citizenship and participation in the State of Israel.
Colonel,
Just saw this you tube song “Al-Quds will always be #Palestinian” from Elijah Magnier site:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U-V6CEXhGg&feature=youtu.be
interesting to see the impact on the illegitimate rulers in the region, (the US allies). Considering ME to be the corner stone of US (flawed)imperial ambitions, perhaps this would be the last nail!!!.. not so much as any perceived violence or such, though there will be the usual smoke and fire. however, this would hopefully impact the efforts on the de-dollorization in trade, specially in the energy sector.
Col. Lang et al,
Nothing good can or will come of this, either in the short term, or in the long term. The insular stupidity and arrogance on display here is comprehensive (with the exception of Tillerson and Mattis, who will be charged with dealing with the forthcoming consequences, both diplomatic and military).
And judging from the cited report that the Beaver introduced into the discussion, nothing better could be expected if Trump were to resign or were to be successfully impeached, as Pence, that condign idiot, is a True Believer.
Truly, those whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad.
As Col. said, embassy move is trivial. Recognition of capital is significant Trump is just pulling the trigger by not signing a waiver. US Congress loaded the gun back in 1995 requiring recognition of Jerusalem as capital unless an annual waiver is signed. US Congress=Israel occupied territory Similar to annual waiver, is the annual certification required for Iran deal.
What is the most fascinating in all that is this: and UN Ambassador Nikki Haley. What is this woman’s claim to anything of any substance in foreign policy? Her resume includes such stellar assignments as working for waste management company and clothing firm. At least Pence’s “father was a piano mower” (c), I mean Pence can claim some relation to foreign policy by being on a House’s International Relations Committee, not that it makes anyone’s resume look good, but Nikki is a complete fruit. My impression originally was that Haley was put into UN for two reasons: to throw the bone to neocons, while simultaneously removing this woman from any policy formulation, and to serve as a punching bag for late Vitaly Churkin who didn’t live to see that joke of a “diplomat” at the floor in UNSC. Really fascinating to observe all that. It is not a benign fascination, however. It is downright worrisome. Judging by the latest efforts of former Soviet Jews, such as Yakov Kedmi (former chief of Nativ), high-profile pro-Russian performances in major Russian Media, one is forced to make some far reaching conclusions.
Colonel thank you for this post and I agree this was foolish thing to do, making Israel definitely not safer but uniting the entire Muslims against her. Colonel, somehow I think, sometimes, you don’t mind to let the commentators on your site make fool of themselves. Cynically, I think in intelligence business, letting people run on wrong analysis has value. Or
He did it for one simple reason: He doesn’t know what he’s doing as President – and he doesn’t care as long as he doesn’t get impeached or is forced to resign.
He’s merely playing at being President and has no clue as to the possible consequences of many of his actions, and is dependent on others to tell him what actions to take, whether political, military, or foreign policy.
It’s that simple.
“Trump Sabotages the Mideast Peace Process”
Headline in today’s online edition of “The New Yorker”
Ain’t nuthin to sabotage here. The peace process is a complete fraud, always has been, always will be.
The Catholic Church may have a point about the several century patient wait. Will Israel endure as a functional nation state another century?
The only thing they got going for them is the economic/military levitation of US support. If the United States as an imperial power collapses and it can’t maintain its full spectrum dominance (IMO foreordained)the levitation of Israel will end and like a hot air balloon running out of Propane it will return whence it came.
Trump proclaiming Jerusalem as the capital will be a deliberate provocation to the Arabs, but they’re already pretty thoroughly provoked anyway and we don’t have much credibility to lose.
jdleddel, in reality he did it for two reasons:
(1) Obama didn’t do it and
(2) this guarantees $millions for his re-election campaign.
Not that he will explain it in those terms, of course.
He’ll argue that the issue of Jerusalem is intractable, therefore he has taken it off the table so that the negotiations can continue over less contentious issues.
However, that is not what the two parties will take from this announcement.
The Israelis will conclude that whenever an issue becomes intractable then Trump will respond by gifting it to them, ergo, it is in their interests to ensure that ALL the issues are intractable.
The Palestinians will conclude that Trump is a partisan hack and, therefore, will have no interest in any Trump-mediated negotiations.
At which point the Israelis will say (and why not?) that if there is nothing to discuss then you should stick to form and recognize that it is all mine! mine! mine!, right, Mr President?
Even if we accept that Trump is doing this for what he believes to be the best of intentions (I don’t, but there ya’ go) all he has done is display a breathtaking ability to be taken for a ride by the Israelis.
PL
I think Donald Trump’s gift was well received in Israel. Quote begin:
… Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu described US President Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital as an “historic day” and a “landmark in the history of Jerusalem.” …
President Reuven Rivlin said following the declaration: President Rivlin said, “I congratulate President Donald Trump on his announcement of US recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and on the expected move of the American Embassy to Jerusalem. There is no more fitting or beautiful gift, as we approach 70 years of the State of Israel’s independence.” …
Quote end. Source: http://www.ejpress.org/article/Netanyahu-praises-historic-decision-as-Trump-recognizes-Jerusalem-as-Israel-s-capital/23740
So, Israel got what it wanted. So, I think, Trump is quite safe against suggestions that it was a “Greek gift” when the backlash comes in.
Trump is a puppet for the religious right of both the US and Israel.
Tidewater comments,
It seems to me that this will bring on now a resurgence in the authority of the Saudi religious authority, the Ulema. I have been looking to see a comment or fatwa from them, but have not yet found it.
I think Mohammed bin Salman is a psychopath, with the potential of becoming a Caligula, who has gotten himself, as is inevitable with a personality disorder, into very deep trouble. His dalliance with Israel will have to somehow be erased, disappeared, forgotten, though I assume that it and his reckless contempt for the “Commission” (see Lucky Luciano) have already made him a marked man. The three battalions of light infantry of the Royal Guard will scarcely be able to protect him if a group of officers in SANG form an alliance with some alienated princes and roll the dice. I think there will be many in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere who suspect him of apostasy, and if ever some members of the Ulema state as much, it could be all that is needed for a successful coup d’état, though it would have to be after the king has died or abdicated. Neom is dead. The world is turned upside down. Trump has blown it out his arse.
jdledell , Colonel,
What the Arabs don’t want to understand is Israel’s unofficial national anthem, namely:
ירושלים של זהב
Jerusalem of Gold was written by Naomi Shemer, the over 2,000 year longing of the people of Israel (בני ישראל } to return to Jerusalem.
Listen to the late Ofra Haza’s rendition, listen to the yearning of her heart that cries out in her voice. It is this unified cry by Bnei Israel for the restoration of the Temple, that was torn from them so so many centuries ago. Those Jews who live in Eretz Yisrael, and those in the Diaspora the world over, this yearning that never ceases or goes away, this cry for Jerusalem, Bnei Israel will never give up.
The late Ofra, may she rest in peace:
ירושלים של זהב
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8Co7IzOyhw
I don’t get it. What advantage does the Trumpster (or our country) get by acknowledging Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and moving our embassy there? Is he just trying to satisfy the evangelicals and Pence?
I haven’t posted here in some time, I think I may have been filed in the persona non grata folder.
But honestly, after all the huffing and puffing about feckless Obama and shifty Hillary, when are we going to have an honest conversation about however bad the Democrats are on the Middle East, the “modern” GOP always manages to be worse – they just keep pouring on the gas and throwing more matches.
As others allude, the only silver lining with Trump is that he is such an incompetent that he may force some sort of reckoning with the fact that America has not been an “honest broker” here for a long, long time.
Here’s something for others to enjoy and comprehend, displayed in Motty Steinmetz’s songs, the study of Torah that is bound to the heart:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9m5e-oPl5I
What about fall-out in other parts of the Muslim world. I’m thinking about Afghanistan and Pakistan. Or is this mainly a problem for the Arab nations?
Al-Quds, Ha-Kodesh, both sides have the same view of it, and I don’t think either is going to forget that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-D-%C5%A0
As an element of Jordan’s Trusteeship of the holy shrines, it should declare the annexation of the West Bank into Jordan with the Palestinians giving their assent.
and its not even a big trump in your face plan.
Jerusalem is 3 cities “Jerusalem” “east Jerusalem” and the tiny old city.
the embassy will be moved to tapiot, a suburb on the southern edge of Jerusalem in a neighborhood that did not exist before the 1990s.
if ever jerusalem would gain its status as an “international City” not ruled by israel or palestine, then it would be highly likely this new embassy would fall within israel and not jerusalem.
seems kind of stupid to me, a half ass measure that is going to fully enrage everyone else.
I just read that Israel’s Oren said that, from the beginning of Syria’s civil war on, Israel wanted Assad gone, and that they preferred the ordinary liver eater/ head chopper (saudi, UAE, oman & turkey backed) sunni bad guy over any (iran backed, thus evil) shia bad guy, out of principle.
http://www.jpost.com/Syria-Crisis/Oren-Jerusalem-has-wanted-Assad-ousted-since-the-outbreak-of-the-Syrian-civil-war-326328
How bright thinking.
I assume to that a dude like Oren Trump’s declaration to move US embassy to Jerusalem is a bless, since it conveniently pushes any blame for disagreement and the persistent absence of any peace deal to the Palestinians, for whom Trump’s declaration is simply and predictably and unsurprisingly inacceptable.
US foreign office folks should know that and likely do know that, and whaetever Trump knows, liklely he just doesn’t care. I have my doubt that cautiosus people had a chance to be heared in the whitehouse.
I doubt that the Palestinians are unlikely to come to a fair or sensible deal with Israel, much less now, so that negotiations will fail. That written, a deal usually requires several sides wanting to come to a deal. Here, it is likely that angry palestinians will protest. That shouldn’t come as a surprise.
Still, that ‘being angry’ means something, even though it won’t stop Trump’s decision about Jerusalem or limit the damage it caused. After all, it was angry palestinians who brought Israel to remove their magnet detectors in Jerusalem.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/07/israel-removing-metal-detectors-al-aqsa-compound-170724214814179.html
If Israel removed them that must have been because they met more resistance than expected and wanted. The Israelis quietly understood that they couldn’t handle, say, another intifada replay, without loosing hair in the process.´
More generally formulated: Irrespective of what they like to say, the Israelis apparently understood that there is a limit to what they can achieve with intelligence/ military and/ or police (over) power.
After all, the Israelis also weren’t able to handle Hezbollah during their last visit to Lebanon. Hezbollah showed that they had learned to fight, survive and fight on the next day, week and month. And that’s, ahmm … Iran’s fault!
Practically seen, it means that there is a point at which Israel’s superior intelligence/ military and/ or police power stops helping them, and they know that, whatever they say about their ‘absolute dominance’. That’s likely a reason of Israeli paranoia about a ‘Shia highway’ from Iran to Hezbollah.
And moving the US embassy in Israel to Jerusalem is … an “America first!” policy? Seriously? Why not rather call it “Trump first?”
I feel that the Jerusalem declaration will get Trump some boost with evangelicals and some jewish voters. That is a domestic aspect, and is also playing into the hands of Netanyahu. That is about all the ‘benefit’ I see of Trump’s declaration on Jerusalem. But despite that, it is IMO very unlikely to help America or to serve actual American interests. It’s a sad day.
After president Trump kicked over the milk bucket near mid-day by saying that he is “officially” recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and the U.S. will be moving its embassy there, he released a short statement that the U.S. is asking that Saudi Arabia end its blockade of Yemen–
“I have directed officials in my Administration to call the leadership of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to request that they completely allow food, fuel, water, and medicine to reach the Yemeni people who desperately need it. This must be done for humanitarian reasons immediately.”
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/12/06/statement-president-donald-j-trump-yemen
Here is a transcript of Trump’s statement on Jerusalem, and it has what is probably an Arabic translation of it further down the page after the English version–
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/12/06/statement-president-trump-jerusalem
He has,satisfied his constituency – like any good populist would – and has washed his (and US) hands of achieving any kind of peace.
This act of Trump was a gift to the Iranian leaders, which would keep giving in the months and years to come.
I’m a young man, so I admit it: I want the slate to be wiped clean. I want the entire middle east order as we know it to die painfully in a fire. I welcome this acknowledgement of Jerusalem as the eternal capital of the Jewish State, irrespective of what I think of Trump(I voted for him, and will vote for him again). It only adds to the entropy that leads to either the empowerment of Iran or the empowerment of the Liver Eaters. Either way, I just want to live to see the slate wiped clean, and over the past few years I am convinced that I will get that wish
All
Does Israel really want peace with their neighbors? It seems they prefer domination.
Clearly they’ve been able to punch well above their weight in having a dominant influence on the US political and governmental system. The obsequiousness of the US Congress in joint session providing standing ovation after another to Netanyahu was a sight to behold.
Is there another instance in history when a small country was successfully able to dominate the political system of a larger and more powerful country? Does anyone know how they were able to pull this off over the past 50 years? Is there any force in US politics currently that opposes this takeover of the US political system?
In my non-educated opinion, if and when a backlash occurs, it will be on the wings of a generalized feeling that the Jews stabbed us in the back. It will be indiscriminate and target all Jews in the US.
Wonder how this is going to affect the new saudi-israel alliance.
US popularity in the region will further go down.
25 Newell Street
Thankyou Pat and jdledell for your timely post.i particularly admire jdleddells ability to add poignancy to this sad little corner of the world.
Even now it seems like Israel has succeeded in the completion of it’s Savior Machine. it’s small but skilled team of diplomates, merchant’s scientists and technicians seem to have achieved their aim ,
Unfortunately no one has told them or they are blind to the consequences of being in possession of this device that far from being a Savior it will eventually lead to their destruction.
Chevalier
Colonel, kudos for the chart at the top of this post. Many times in my mind I have gone over the timeline of the control of Jerusalem and/or the Holy Land but to see it visually represented really brings home the point. No doubt there are few from Congress right up to the President who know of this reality while they make policy based largely on the idea expressed by Netanyahu that “Jerusalem has been the capital of the Jewish people for thousands of years.” With such a superficial knowledge of history it is no surprise that we keep shooting ourselves in the foot and then can’t understand the lack of support for our position by the rest of the world.
“Trump thinks he is a friend of Israel? He has just screwed Israel out of any chance for a peace agreement with the Palestinians.”
Being 100% realistic… was there any chance of a peace agreement to begin with?
Personally I don’t believe any of the nearby Muslim nations care about the Palestinians, all they care about is finding reasons to hate Israel and if Palestinians serve that purpose then so be it. If moving the US embassy also serves that purpose they will all be suitably outraged at the thought of it. None of these people are earnestly looking for a compromise solution.
jdledell, there seem to have been a couple of Supreme Court cases concerning the status of Jerusalem. Usually concerning kids born in Jerusalem. The argument: There should be not only Jerusalem but Jerusalem, Israel in the passport. I am not aware of the precise history, but I recall there was one arguing against a decision when Hillary Clinton was still Secretary of State and another one against Kerry.
Would be interesting to look into the respective opinion versus dissent arguments.
*******
When I read Alan Dershowitz’ argument against the misuse of law in politics in the larger ‘Russiagate’ investigation, I wondered what his precise position in the use of Lawfare to fight BDS or e.g. critical perspectives against Israel on campus is. That’s using law in politics too. No?
Deshowitz is close to the Lawfare Project:
https://thelawfareproject.org/lps-groundbreaking-civil-rights-lawsuit-against-sfsu-endorsed-by-preeminent-constitutional-scholar-alan-dershowitz/
tel
You are right. They don’t care much about the Palestinians. It is Jerusalem that they care about. pl
Serge
I didn’t realize that there are Canadian neocons. pl
bt
I have no idea who you are. pl
Sadly, I think you incorrect. We will keep, foolishly, ignorantly, trying to stick our hands (although I am inclined to say ‘thumbs’) in the ‘peace process’. My desire would be for my government to get out of now, and once and for all, in the ME. If for no other reason than we are simply too arrogant and uninformed to be of any practical help. We can live without em….whatever happens over there. Iran wants to step into that hornet’s nest, do so, with my perverse pleasure. Lets see how that works for Iran. In the long run.
who, in this ever loving world IS an “honest broker”, and what in the world does that phrase mean anyway? Everyone, and every State, at all times, looks out for what they perceive, anyway, is in their own interests. Granted, occasionally, it is/was in our interests to PLAY an ‘honest broker’. Who actually ever believed it? A bit more honest than the next guy? Maybe, at times, but we’re our own broker…to the limited extent, lately, we are capable of looking out for our own interests.
Yes,absolutely and totally a free recruiting gift to the entire Shia resistance.
“Iraq’s top Shia cleric Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani has condemned a controversial decision by the United States to recognize Jerusalem al-Quds as the “capital” of Israel, saying the occupied city must return to its Palestinian owners.”http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2017/12/07/544771/Palestine-Hamas-Haniyeh-rage-day-Israel-Trump
Slate can never be wiped clean; it is an impossibility.
I’m with some of the other commenters who suggest that there was never going to be a peace or a compromise anyhow, so….what the heck? Might as well follow-thru and make official on the decision that was made many years ago to recognize Jerusalem the capitol of Israel. So we get Muslims rioting in the streets screaming “death to America/death to Israel”. We get that anyhow.
If nothing else, it sends a strong message to Muslim factions that PTD isn’t fooling around. Jerusalem always was non-negotiable. It is the capitol of Israel. Now there’s no “maybe” around that. It’s done. Off the table. Given that, let’s start talks based on what is negotiable and possible.
If the Muslim factions don’t want to talk now b/c their pride and religiosity is hurt, then they can go home mad. None of them were doing us any real favors in the first place. What are they going to do about it? Some terrorist attacks, of course. Some Israelis will die. That is a cost that Israel has elected to pay for a Jerusalem capitol. Some Palestinians will die too. And that is a cost they have chosen to pay for being obstinate regarding what they want. And so it goes on as I always has.
Another aspect of Trump’s statement about Jerusalem yesterday is that his speech was mush-mouthed at the very end, especially when he said, “United States”. Was it due to dentures, prescription medication, dry mouth, surreptitious drugging, something else?–
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=lmk6oC2CuT0
“Whom the gods would destroy they first make mad”
The magic cloth of eternal victimhood has been disappearing before our very eyes and the naked “victims” reveal themselves to be the average (and rather vulgar) tribalists of “exceptionalist” leaning.
Eric Newhill et al
“the “Moslem factions?” You mean the 1.2 billion Muslims in the world? I see, you think they are petulant children whose attention will wander and then everything will be all right. What an incredibly paternalistic and condescending attitude that is. So, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, The large Muslim population of India, Indonesia, etc. just don’t matter because being weak of mind they will fall in line if one deals with them firmly. Secondly, I clearly failed to explain to you all that the outrage of the Islamic World over this surrender of Jerusalem to Israel has little to do with the fate or rights of the Palestinians. Only the Palestinians care much for the Palestinians. No, what is involved here is the conception in th minds of the Muslims that Jerusalem is an integral part of Islamicate Civilization and Trump has surrendered the city to the Zionists. pl
One point might be missed here in the excellent commentaries, with this move on Jerusalem Trump has taken a solid nsurance policy against impeachment, and possibly secured a second term in his view…. Sordid mind indeed
Very very true…
Iran has lived there for a few millenniums, they have a long experience how to survive there, unlike “you” and other western migrants they have nowhere else to go to. Looking at it in long term, every westerner there in israel will eventually come to same conclusion and leave. This i know from Jewish Iranian expatriates who on religious grounds after the revolution first migrated to Israel, after a few years they all tried and migrated to US, complaining, hardship on security, their kids most mandatory go to service and fight a war, tough doing business with israelis, not being treated equally, etc. but mainly insecurity issues made them all pay their way to move to LA.
Iranian leaders have already made a public commitment to push Israelis out of the West Bank.
Bloomberg BusinessWeek lists Haley as the first of 50 most influential people to watch this year.
No, not that “Trump has surrendered the city to the Zionists” but that “Trump has surrendered the city to the Jews”.
In my opinion, that is how it is going to go down among Muslims; the distinction between a Jew and a Zionist is immaterial to the 1.2 billion Muslims.
Iranian leaders, being religious, will maintain that intellectual distinction in their pronouncements but the man-on-the-street is an entirely different, not for him such distinctions – in my onion.
CP: The terms of reference will change. First, the Palestinians will move to an internationalization of the process. Second, the younger ones know that Israel’s Achilles’s Heal is Zionland’s false claim they are a “western style democracy.” Third, the Palestinians must announce in a public congress that Israel and the US have made the 2-state solution impossible, so they are now going to push for Israeli citizenship between the river and the sea.
My wife’s relatives in Bethlehem don’t really benefit from having Palestinian policeman enforce Israeli policy on them. You might as well have the real occupier enforce their policies directly.
The real losers will be the fake “liberal Zionists” and the Palestinian apparatchiks in Ramallah who liked pretending that the PA was a real government.
Remember this image: The US helped train Palestinian security services….which are utterly incapable of protecting Palestinians from Israelis.
That says it all.
He committed US to un-ending war against Islam.
You like that?
Israel controls America (and Canada); America controls the U.N. enough to block effective action. Checkmate.
Tel: Your comments are ridiculous.
When Arabs care about Arab nationalism, they are accused of using it to as a distraction from their own mis-governance. When the Arab tyrants ignore the Palestinians, you generalize their apathy onto the tyrants’s subjected peoples. Arabs do care about Palestine. MbS, the Saudi princeling, is not the Arab World.
It is probably fair to say that Arabs, like all other people–despise the poor and weak, and are tired of being on the losing team, etc. Most downtrodden ape the styles and attitudes of their oppressors.
But such an explanation just proves that human beings are sh*tty, it doesn’t add any insight into the failure of the US lead “peace process.”
https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2017/03/31/israel-is-an-apartheid-state-even-if-the-un-report-has-been-withdrawn/
Israel is able to shut down freedom of the press even at the U.N.
There will be no changes from the status quo. Israel will continue its vacuole strategy of digesting Palestine.
matthew
“Arabs do care about Palestine.” Yes, they care about Palestine and most especially about Jerusalem, but I have not known many Arabs from other countries who really cared much about the Palestinians as other than an emblem of Israeli evil. pl
Eric Newhill: Yes, the Palestinians are “obstinate.” Normal people normally complain when they are getting screwed over.
But you forgot to say “uppity” and “riled up by Yankee agitators.”
Babak,
you write – “He has,satisfied his constituency – like any good populist would – and has washed his (and US) hands of achieving any kind of peace.”
That was exactly my reaction when I first heard the confirmation. Dismay. But there are other considerations.
1. It will satisfy the greater part of his constituency – among them those archetypal “deplorables” who hang both the Israeli and US flags out front. I’ve seen them called Christian Zionists, or even just Evangelicals, but whatever the name there are many of them and to them Trump has kept his promise. More than that, he has gone further than any recent American President has cared to. Whatever happens now that great mass among his supporters are content and will remain content.
2. Nominally he has satisfied other groups as well. The Jerusalem decision is more than the Neocons could have asked for and more than the Israelis themselves could have hoped for a year or two back. The New York Jewish voters must also be satisfied, or must profess to be. Nothing here for AIPAC to complain about either.
But we’ll have to wait until we know how much they have to be satisfied about. Trump has underlined that the American policy towards Israel is to defend Israel if attacked, if necessary up to nuclear. We knew that already though. Nothing changed there. He has also underlined that America isn’t on the side of the Palestinians in their struggle for self-determination and possible recovery of lost territory. No news there either. We’ve known that since Carter. In fact Trump has given the Neo-cons and the Israelis nothing they didn’t already have, but has made it perhaps impossible for them to complain if they don’t get more.
3. What more did they want? Under Obama, and Clinton had she been elected, plenty. The Neocons and the Israelis were getting and could rely on continuing to get covert or semi-covert American support for the destabilisation of neighbouring countries, a destabilisation that the Israelis saw as very much to their advantage. We can’t be sure yet whether the Americans intend to wind that down. If they do then both the Neocons and the Israelis will be deeply dissatisfied but will find it difficult to protest because of the Jerusalem decision. As for the two-flag deplorables, I’d guess that few of them ever saw the Syrian intervention or any other as assisting Israel. It wasn’t ever put across like that to the American electorate. They won’t object if Trump brings the troops home and leaves the proxies hanging.
4. As I say, we can’t be sure whether the Americans intend to wind the ME intervention down. Maybe they’re just pausing for breath. But might there be some indications?
Above, from “Beaver’s” comment, we see that the State and Defence were reported to be against the move. If that’s so it’s significant. If the Americans are to continue with the Syrian intervention they want the support of the UK and of Europe. That, especially in the case of the UK, was automatic until recently. Recently we’ve seen the UK media take a more critical stance. After the Jerusalem decision we see the UK and particularly the Europeans taking a very critical stance. I suspect that apart from a few intelligence bits and pieces UK and European support wasn’t critical to the American Syrian intervention, but the Americans value the diplomatic cover it gives and now they haven’t got so much of it. That’s not the action of a President who wishes to double down on intervention – more care would be taken to keep the Europeans on board if that were the case.
There is also the fact that the Syrian intervention is done mostly by proxies. Those proxies are I think all at least nominally Islamic and some very much so. They seem to work for whoever will pay or supply them but can you see them working well for an America that has declared so explicitly for Israel? Again, antagonising the proxies isn’t consistent with wanting to use them more.
And of course the Jerusalem decision will also disturb the American Arab allies. Again doing that is not consistent with increased American intervention.
Babak, you’re the man on the spot, or near it, and I’m no foreign policy expert as you know. But could I suggest that the Jerusalem decision is at least consistent with winding down the Syrian intervention, making it clear what was already known – that America will guarantee Israel’s survival by whatever means necessary -, satisfying the bulk of Trumps pro-Israel supporters, leaving the door open for a winding down of the Syrian intervention, whilst making it difficult for the Neocons and the Israelis to claim that Trump isn’t pro-Israel.
It is of course also consistent with provoking an attack on Israel that would allow the Americans to come in heavy handed and no more fooling around with proxies, but I can’t see the Russians or the Syrians being unwise enough to fall for that one. What it’s not consistent with is a continuation of the present extremely unsatisfactory state of affairs, where no one, as the Colonel remarked some time ago, is quite sure what the West is up to and what it hopes to achieve. At least now the hands are being declared.
U.N. Security Council calls Fri emergency meeting to discuss America’s fiasco.
Hamas’ leader Ismail Haniyeh: “We should call for and we should work on launching an intifada in the face of the Zionist enemy.”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-07/hamas-leader-calls-third-intifada-following-trumps-declaration-war
You know, it IS possible to look out for your own interests, while also not stabbing people in the back and constantly deceiving…
What will be the impact in Saudi is the question I have too?
Sir,
I didn’t intend to come off as paternalistic; nor do I feel that way towards Muslims. I suppose Babbak is correct that this move is, in a sense, a symbolic commitment to eternal war with Muslims. I knew that when I was commenting. My point was that Muslims committed to eternal war against infidels a long time ago and building the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount was a belligerent a-hole act by conquerors. Now the table has turned with regards to this bit of symbolism. The eternal war always existed and always would regardless of this decision.
I am skeptical that Muslims in Indonesia and some other places really care all that much about this – at least not enough to do anything about it. I do think that Muslims in the MENA, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran will have a meltdown. Yes. That is a heck of a lot of people.
I do not think these people are of “weak mind”. Quite the contrary; never has a more stubborn single minded culture existed. That said, I do think they are of weak position. What are they going to do about it that they weren’t already doing? Shoot rockets? Run around chopping off heads? Commit acts of terrorism?
I am one that believes that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with Western civilization. Conflict is inevitable. If they could overrun Europe (as they have tried to do) and establish an extended caliphate there, they would. I think there is no point in trying to appease these people. They will never be satisfied until Israel is gone and they have created one big ummah out of the world. The only stopping them is the only thing they understand; force. Too bad for them if it makes them feel impotent. Maybe they should try something other than a zero sum approach to relationships if they want to be treated in a less “paternalistic” manner.
Muslims are being totally unreasonable here. Why is this an issue? So Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel. So what? It’s not like the Jews are going to tear down the Dome of the Rock. This is just revealing the underbelly of the issue. Muslims will not accept the existence of Israel under any circumstances. They are being dishonest brokers when they gripe about the Jerusalem issue. The truth is that they want what they want and they are resolute in getting it whether it be by increments over many generations or by Armageddon. What they want is for Israel to pushed into the sea. Period. That’s just for starts.
I have no special love of Israel either, but recognize its right to exist, its historic claims to the land and the threats is faces.
Does anyone know how they were able to pull this off over the past 50 years?
I do not pretend to know it all, but American Christian (Old Testament) Zionism was one of the major vehicles which was utilized as a political ram, the other, of course, was the growth of the Holocaust industry in the US. I forestall immediately the possible question–I am not Holocaust denier but it was namely in the US where exploitation of “guilt” for Holocaust is being exploited on a scale I never saw in my life, but then again, I am Russian and in Russia “selling” Holocaust doesn’t work. US is a perfect country for this.
Willman on Trump’s speech. “….something else?”
rage? He’s in a state with what looks like a case of the stares headed in the direction of wild-eyed. Could be observer bias. I do know when real people conduct themselves that way I become very attentive — and C-A-L-M.
Babak,
It’s not a matter of liking it. It is what it is.
My entire lifetime I have seen Muslims rampaging about shouting “Death to America” and “Death to Israel”, bombing, shooting, head chopping, stoning non-believers. I grew up with people/family that barely survived Islamic death to the infidel ideology.
And now you want to tell me that that by moving the capitol of Israel to Jerusalem the US has committed itself to un-ending war with Islam. Well, that’s just rich.
Eric Newhill
That’s a very broad brush you are painting with. So, because of Ottoman persecution of Armenians you cannot view anything about them objectively. pl
That is not totally true, at least not in Iran, if it was true, why don’t we see Iranian Muslims attack Iranian Jews and synagogues in streets of Tehran like they did against the Saudies embassy?. In Iran, Iranians have correctly and successfuly made a distinguish between Jews and Jewish and Israelies/ Israel which they link to Zionism. That is visible not only in government level but also in street level.
I’m not sure you understand the profound significance of Jerusalem for the Muslim world. And not just the devout Muslims…
The Donald just crossed the red line
“The Catholic Church believes in patience as a virtue. It continues to discreetly maintain that the UN Partition of Palestine in 1947 is the only legal status established for Jerusalem. “
Two or three life-style choices ago the Catholic Church sought to teach “patience” by requiring that I weave a 3/4″ pin through 8 layers of heavy cotton duck. That was merely stupid.
What the Catholic Church is doing/not doing today — and for the last 50 years — is not patience, it is pusillanimity. When an institution has the power and authority of the Roman Catholic church, pusillanimity is not merely a failure of virtue, it is a sin and a crime.
I am telling you the way I see things.
Sir
The “peace process” has been dead for a while and will continue to be as Israel is in the catbirds seat and the Palestinians can never agree to lose all the land that has been taken from them.
While Trump’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel will antagonize the Muslim persons on the street it removes the fiction that the US is an honest broker. None of the leaders of Muslims believed that as the US has consistently been partisan with respect to Israel.
How will this change any of the ground realities? Two state or one state with citizenship for Palestinians is not gonna happen. The apartheid state will continue as long as the US carries water for the Zionists. And there can be no change to that situation until the Zionist capture of our politics is removed. I don’t see that happening in my lifetime.
Tidewater,
The implications for this on the Saudi-Israeli alliance are interesting. MBS made a big strategic decision to open ally himself with Israel and now this happens. MBS can’t very well reverse himself, and Israel needs Saudi help to try and contain Iran. Trump has put both MBS and Bibi in difficult positions. If Bibi had genuinely wanted this US recognition of Jerusalem he would have gotten it a long time ago.
If I were cynical I would think that Trump just gave Bibi a poisoned chalice. If I were Freudian I would think that Trump harbours secret resentment for Israel because he feels Oedipal jealousy of his son-in-law.
Many People of the Book yearn for that day when the slate is wiped clean. It is unusual to hear the wish expressed to survive the cataclysm, as traditionally that option is not available.
“The dogs barked, and the caravan rolls on.” Arab Proverb
Just yesterday I read an amateur writer’s sketch of Max Nordau’s influence on Theodor Herzl. Herzl was a diagnosed Depressive; the writer said the condition along with Herzl’s other mental instabilities were “genetic” — a grandson committed suicide in Washington, DC.
The sketch also observed that Herzl wrote “Der Judenstaat” in a driven frenzy after witnessing crowds around Lt. Dreyfuss shout, “Death to Jews.” It occurred to me that “Death to Israel” might sound like “Death to Jews” to zionistically tuned ears.
However: a wikipedia entry says:
Another However:
In a conference at the Metropolitan Club in New York City several years ago, Richard Bulliet, then professor of history at Columbia University, told the audience that in preparing for his talk, he asked a Farsi-speaking colleague to translate “Marg bar ____ .” Bulliet was informed that the phrase translated, “Down with ___,” and that there is no other way to say, “Down with ___.”
Nevertheless, we must not leap impatiently to the conclusion that Netanyahuistas are exaggerating in order to create further support for their goals.
Sir,
I admit my biases and been clear about them. Ottomon persecution of Armenians and others is just one episode over a thirteen hundred years of aggression toward infidels.
I’m an analyst. I look at trends and the driving variables behind them. The trend with Islam has not been favorable to the belief that amicable compromise with non-Muslim Western society is possible, IMO.
I do think it is important to look at outliers too. Sometimes they can tell you about hidden potentials or emerging trends. However, if I had to choose one or the other as to where to put my money, it’s going to be on the long term trend. Trend more or less = broad brush?
So how does this help Israel? Why was it so important to Jewish groups?
Do they now intend to kick out more Palestinians from eastern Jerusalem? Do they believe that the perception of Jerusalem as the political capital of Jerusalem validates their occupation somehow?
I imagine this move will further erode credibility of those employing the Jewish victim card that Jews and Zionists use to justify occupation and all kinds of horrible violence. The corrupt Arab and Muslim dictators will do nothing. They don’t care but i believe that the “Muslim street” is authentic in its sympathy and support for the Palestinians. I don’t know that anything will become of that.
However, Israel’s credibility and its entire raison d etre continue to unravel. More and more people are realizing that Israel is the aggressor. That does not bode well for the Jewish state as its existence relies on support from the US.
“I have no special love of Israel either, but recognize its right to exist, its historic claims to the land and the threats is faces.”
Yap, you sure sound don’t, wondering what would your “special love” position sounds like?
Bloomberg BusinessWeek lists Haley as the first of 50 most influential people to watch this year.
My local newspaper lists me as the the top (bottom) 10 worst specialists in Chinese literature. All those lists are meaningless, especially when relate to merely “power”, which is influence, the way it is customary to view it. That is why we observed a rather dramatic transition in American diplomacy from people of scale of James Baker or Jack Matlock to Nikki, whose competence in anything related to international relations is zero. Power and influence mean very little when it is not supported with actual skills and knowledge. Most of the time this influence means nothing good. In the end, Kim Kardashian is also very influential figure, despite being disgusting. Result matters (in the end–it is Clausewitzian dictum). I think most people here will agree that Nikki can not deliver on anything which beneficial to majority of the Americans, or the world, for that matter.
Lets address the real problem re Israel in this latest stupidity.
Besides the damage Israel has done to Palestine and their shit stirring in the ME there is the damage the Jewish Fifth Column has done to America. They have been dragging us into the gutter for decades and destroyed whatever shreds of principle and good reputation the US ever had or aspired to.
Never before in the history of the world has a small client state ruled over its more powerful benefactor state. So there is no history to indicate how this will end.
Regardless, I am done with all the traitors to my nation.
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius
Kerim,
The red line to what exactly?
Do you not understand the significance of Jerusalem to Jews (and Christians)?
How is having the capitol of Israel in Jerusalem such an affront to Muslims? They are not building the capitol on top of the Dome of the Rock. How is it a problem?
Are you telling me the Muslims, Jews and Christians would really all agree to making Jerusalem an open city belonging to the world and all faiths, into perpetuity, but for US intervention?
Kooshy, wrote: “… they have a long experience how to survive there, unlike “you” and other western migrants they have nowhere else to go to” I have no idea what you are talking about….western migrants? WTF are you taking about.
Talk is very cheap these days. Although, as I tried to make clear, I could care less what Iran does, or does not do with regard to Israel. Have at it boys…from my perspective. America should be focusing on taking care of itself.
Think Sheldon Adelson
Another thought. Trump must have known – unless his son in law was badly deceiving him – that there was going to be no peace process. Now, he can neatly blame the Palestinians for the failure when they refuse to come to the table
First of 50 most influenced is more like it.
“I have no special love of Israel either, but recognize its right to exist, its historic claims to the land and the threats is faces.”
That IS the “special love of Israel” – since Israel has no historical, ethnic, legal or other right to exist. All of that has been debunked over and over by historians who aren’t Zionists.
Personally I don’t believe any of the nearby Muslim nations care about the Palestinians, all they care about is finding reasons to hate Israel
You absolutely have this backwards. If by “nearby Muslim nations” you mean the people of the Middle East, the Palestinian issue is the reason they hate Israel. If you mean the political leadership in those nations, most have either signed peace treaties with Israel (Egypt & Jordan) or acted as de facto allies (Saudi Arabia, Turkey). They obviously aren’t seeking reasons to hate Israel.
SmoothieX12,
Niiki Haley had the courage to remove the Confederate flag from the SC statehouse grounds. This is after she was supportive of said instrument. Which proves only that she is with the prevailing winds, even when they are from Vichy. She has the position by virtue of Trump removing her from interfering with SC politics, whatever those may be, and further distancing her from oval office potential. In that regard Trump probably did us all a favor.
Thank you for your comments.
I agree that his position is consistent with what you would call “winding down ME interventions”.
It is also an admission of defeat; the goal of the United States, for over 60 years, was not indefinite maintenance of a Fort Apache in the Middle East; rather the acceptance of the Jewish state as a legitimate state as any other.
Trump might have concluded, all on his own, to make a virtue of necessity – why pretend to fight for something that could never be.
kooshy,
“…most mandatory go to service …, tough doing business with …, not being treated equally, etc. but mainly insecurity issues made them all pay their way to move to LA.”
So they want a place with all the benefits of a modern industrial society without any obligations to the same?
This feckless comment characterizes much of the US media response to the move.
First, the countries surrounding Israel have long been far more open to a peace agreement than Israel itself. The sticking point has been a just political settlement of the Palestinian issue.
Second, the world (US excepted) agrees that Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians violates international law. The world does not recognize Israel’s annexation of East Jerusalem. These two points have been confirmed and reconfirmed by UN Security Council resolutions and World Court rulings.
This is not just a matter of “pride and religiosity” being hurt. This is a matter of basic justice.
Israel controls America (and Canada); America controls the U.N. enough to block effective action. Checkmate.
Many actions of substance which shape reality happen beyond the framework of UN(SC). Israel, and her cabal of neocons in D.C., are hysterical since 2015 and there is a very substantial reason for that with or without the U.N. Well pronounced hysteria is hardly an indication of check, let alone mate. In fact, Israel’s position deteriorated greatly which is a direct proof of them not necessarily being that great of a strategists as many, especially their mindless US neocons, claim. Quite the opposite–gross miscalculations and overestimation of own capabilities. Now imagine if Syria gets, say, S-400 and deploys it around Damask. Is it possible? Possible. How probable? I don’t know, but the dynamics is becoming curioser and curioser.
You wrote:
“from my perspective. America should be focusing on taking care of itself.”
I agree.
I heard that from many people in US, but somehow, that sentiment never makes it to the elected organs of the US Government.
You should quit while you’re behind, Newhill. You’re making outrageous and indefensible generalizations about a quarter of the world’s population.
I think Hinduism, Buddhism, Christian Orthodoxy are also incompatible with Western Civilization.
Then my question to you is that why are you guys there among all these alien and un-assimilable people?
Why do you not close your embassies and retreat behind the Diocletian Line – together you have a billion souls and you do not need the rest of us 6 billion riff-raff.
Babak
The Beige Barbarian
That could be the position of some Shia thinkers; the Pope had to rise up against NAZIs and Hitler rather than issuing encyclicals.
Kooshy,
Lebanon before it got blown up. Syria before the trouble there. As good as it gets in the region and pretty good by global standards too.
Look Israel won the wars of land acquisition. They are not going to give it back. No power on earth is going to make them do it. Ok?
It’s just another example out of countless ones throughout human history. Just as Armenians lost their ancient homelands (and lives) to Turks. It’s done. Armenians are smart and resilient enough to get on with life. There is no serious agitation for war with Turkey to re-capture what was taken. Armenians are realistic people. Would that the Muslims of the region learn from them.
But the Muslims can’t get over Israel. They bitch and moan and commit less than useless acts of terrorism. Yet they remain impotent to do anything serious about it that would actually bring about the desired status (land given back to Muslim populations). It’s really a pathetic schizophrenic mindset.
Arab countries won’t do anything significant to aid the Palestinians despite all the rhetoric. Instead they whoop them up against Israel, which helps no one (see above), when they should be providing something real and substantial that actually would bring about a better future. So no, I have no sympathy for the Muslims in this.
Israeli govt buildings have been in Jerusalem a long time. All that has happened is the US now officially recognizes what has been reality for years. The response is irrational. It would be like the American Indians holding onto a dream that someday the US govt would give them back the great plains and other traditional lands and then being upset when a POTUS simply reiterates as official policy that which has been clear for a very long time; “ain’t gonna happen”.
Origin,
Why would they do that, other than to relieve Israel of the burden and to destroy the Kingdom of Jordan by making it a defacto Palestine? A better question would be to ask what Israel would do if next week Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine. Since he has already opened a can of worms he might as well take the bottom off with the top.
“The “peace process” has been dead for a while and will continue to be as Israel is in the catbirds seat and the Palestinians can never agree to lose all the land that has been taken from them.”
True. But now there is the risk of peace breaking out in the ME. And for the Neocons that absolutely cannot be allowed to happen. The ME is the gift that keeps on giving for the Neocons and it is only with the arrival of an adult in the room, namely Russia, that they have seen a threat to eternal warfare.
So the goal here is war not peace, provocation not reconciliation. Down is up and black is white.
And think about it. Suppose peace did break out in the ME. Then all eyes would turn to NK. Well, there will be no war in NK. For the Neocons, NK is a complete losing proposition. Trump is folding like a two dollar suitcase in NK. So he stirs the pot in the ME. Just enough provocation to keep up a steady stream of terrorist acts and low level warfare. Afghanistan also cannot keep the ball rolling by itself. The only reason Afghanistan can be sold is the War On Terror. It’s background noise for the main tent, the ME.
If you’re an analyst, you should look to the data. Islam has coexisted with other cultures for many, many years. Try looking at something less biased than the sources you obviously prefer. If you read Fernand Braudel you’ll find Muslim powers often allied with Christian powers against other Muslims, and vice versa.
Col,
A couple points. Netanyahoo wants a war with Iran – “An ominous warning: Netanyahu needs a war with Iran. And he needs it soon”, by James North on Mondoweiss.
There is also an internal Israeli faction that wants to dynamite Al-Aqsa Mosque so that they can rebuild the ‘temple’ properly. I’ll bet they think now is a good time!
I think we’re sailing over a void, no body knows what will happen but the possibilities are all frightening: Instability (revo) in the Arab Street, a general war & what happens if Israel starts losing that war?
J – I understand the importance of the Temple Mount and Jerusalem as well as any Jew. I also understand it’s importance to Muslims around the world. I’ve attended services at the Mosque up there and seen first hand the emotional attachment to the place. What is wrong with sharing Jerusalem? Bethlehem is very sacred to Christians yet there does not seem to be any problem sharing the city with Muslims.
What has always bugged me about our people is their intolerance of others – be they Muslim or myself raised Orthodox but currently attending a Reform Temple. In Israel I have never been considered a good enough Jew and G-d forbid my wife, raised Christian, and Jewish by conversion was treated even worse.
With Israel wanting Jerusalem all to themselves (you know that is going to be the next step) is the kind of selfish step that deadens my faith.
To be a bit of contrarian, I don’t think anything of substance has been done.
While the nations of the West might moralize about Israel and Palestine, and with it, the status of Jerusalem, the truth is that the status of Jerusalem has been decided decades ago. At the very latest, when Rabin was shot, the prospect that Israel might seriously and meaningfully depart from the West Bank, let alone East Jerusalem, was gone. After the sentiments hardened on all sides following the al Aqsa intifada, the peace process has been completely dead, maintained only in useless words solely to satisfy the sense of propriety among the “important people” in the West. Israel has been, I think, for decades, committed to a future without peace, possibly forever, and I don’t think any Palestinian (or, indeed, any citizen of the states neighboring Israel) really expects otherwise either. Trump’s recognition merely ratifies the reality on the ground, I think. His real crime is that he defied the politically correct delusion in the West that has not fit the reality on the ground for years now.
KHC
You don’t understand. What has happened has nothing to do with the Palestinians. It has everything to do with an unlimited, open ended enmity between just about ALL Muslims and both Israel and the US. pl
Bill Herschel
“But now there is the risk of peace breaking out in the ME.” How on earth can you think that? What is the basis for that statement? pl
Eric Newhill
“It’s done.” It is NOT done. Once again this has to do with Muslims as a whole and not about the Palestinians. pl
Hopefully not sounding like a religious nut, my concern is with the arrogance of Israel and it’s people. We have to remember Jews have been tossed out of Israel a few times over the past few thousand of years. It can happen again. Israel currently is worshiping land – the more they can get the better. Trump just gave them Jerusalem which is about 230 times the size of the old city. While not a Golden Calf, the zealous love of land is still a false G-d.
Sure Walker, if you consider paying the jizya and being a second class citizen with regards to statutory rights “coexisting”.
And, of course, enemy of my enemy is my friend, for a while. And then we have to decide what interpretation of Islam we are talking about. Yes. I understand all of that.
Also, I do recognize outliers like Syria and Lebanon as examples of what you say. Colonialism had a positive influence in those places. Maybe I am paternal in my outlook.
All of that said, the driving theme in the history of Islam has been violent intolerant expansionism. That is the brand still being promoted by the wealthiest sponsors (KSA and the gulfies). When the Europeans achieved technical and organizational superiority they were able to squash Islamic expansionism and, in fact, reverse some of it via colonization.
The Zionists did something somewhat similar and the Muslims just can’t handle the reversal. Tough.
walker
You are correct that Muslims, Christians and Jews have co-existed in many settings since the coming of Islam but you neglect to note that in situations in which they were in charge the members of the non-Islamic Abrahamic religions were always relegated to the status of dhimmis. IMO you are incorrect in thinking that the Muslims see the Palestine situation as essentially a matter of justice for Palestinian rights rather than being a matter of a profound feeling of wrong to the Umma as a whole. pl
Sir,
I understand your point and agree with you. It’s Muslims as a whole.
What I am getting at is
a) How does this change the relationship between Muslims and Israel/USA?
b)what Muslims are going to do about it?
My answer to both is “not a bit”.
I am waiting for someone to tell me otherwise with an explanation.
Eric Newhill
If Islamdom as represented by the member states of the OIC turns away from the US and toward Russia and China in political, economic, and military matters because they decide that the US is an implacable enemy you may then begin to know what they can do., pl
Sir,
Thank you. That makes sense. In that light – it would seem – Trump has blundered.
Sir,
As much as you present a case for a potential Trump blunder, what happens when Russia and China kill Muslim trouble makers on their frontiers/borders as they have already done in places like Chechnya.
Perhaps, when the music stops, the Muslims find no acceptable partners outside their own faith.
For middle easterners, there is no difference if the migrants to the Palestine are from Eastern Europe or Western Europe, for them people from the west of Bosporus are all westerners and are called as such ( In Persian they are called Farangi without any racial tone like goyim in Hebrew) including the Russian. Here, I mean migrants from Europe and elsewhere like Russia into Palestine. You wrote you desire for your government to get out entirely (back to home I suppose?) so, you must think you have a backup place to look forward to, somewhere else to go? My openion is that sooner or later all the occupying westerners will come to same conclusion. So unlike you ( from west) Palestinians don’t have that luxury to “get out “ therefore we can expect, they will stay and fight. That is TF I am talking about.
They are not going to give it back. No power on earth is going to make them do it. Ok?
Issue of Golans is not going anywhere. Especially now. In general, war, a conflict, is a very democratic procedure–the enemy also has a say. It is very significant that last Arab secular government has survived. The dynamics in region is very different from what it was even three years ago. Iran also became stronger for a number of reasons which are beyond Israel’s (and U.S.) reach. Power may not make them do it, but circumstances may–famous last words.
Look Israel won the wars of land acquisition.
In war the result is never final.(c) Karl Von Clausewitz, Vom Kriege.
Babak,
Hindus and Buddhists seem to co-exist if not totally assimilate better because they tend to not be violent. I have studied both religions and respect them. Some of the cultural aspects, not as much (like the caste system). Those religions do not tell adherents to put non-believers to the sword and that sort of thing that you do find in Islam. Also, these are more inward looking religions in their highest expressions. They tend to get less hung up on literalism, like a black rock being sacred and being profaned by dirty Jews being near it.
Otherwise, yeah, I’m with you (and jonst). Now that we can be energy independent, we should leave the region to itself, albeit monitoring weapons development, etc so as not to have missiles with Allah u akbar painted on them landing in Europe ahead of the invading hordes. We should probably be sure that a Vlad the Impaler or two or three is installed in the Balkans to assist.
Walker,
Check out some of the polls of Muslim people in various countries (pew I think is one of them) on Muslim attitudes about these things. Then get back to me and tell me where I’m over-generalizing.
Sorr, but Armenians never in thier history were as numerous as Turks or the Arabs today. IMO, that is not a good comparison and analogy. IMO this is different, this more of an standing of attrition, ( vey middle eastern, always say: hope god gives us patience) and fatigue. IMO once the western support of Israel for any reason dries up the western migrants to Palestine will leave since they can not melt and adopt to the sourounding culture and life background. Earlier someone wrote here, Islam is very rigid and unadoptive ( paraphrasing) I think that is true, as I don’t see many large Christian countries among Muslim countries, and in a same way no major Muslim country in the Christian dome west of
Bosporus. So,long term thinking how do you suppose s western style Jewish country can last in middle of Muslims world. Be sensible, I wish it wasn’t this way but reality has his own wishes.
Eric Newhill
Takfiri jihadis are considered to be aberrant heretics and apostates by the great majority of Muslims. The Russians are killing lots of them at present in Syria and it does not affect their relations with Islamdom at all. pl
You are not going far enough, you need to create a new Manhattan Project with its aim being nothing less than enabler of US to decamp from this planet.
As for Buddhists and Hindus – you have left them alone; the Raj is no more and you have not gone about trying to tell them how to live their lives. Nary, you are going there to learn how to navel-gaze.
Caveat Emptor.
Islamic Republic of Iran paid real political price during her period of IOC leadership when she did support Chechen rebellion against the Russian Federation as well as when she prevented an initiative by Pakistan against India in IOC be put to vote.
As a result, both India and Russia voted several times against Iran.
There is no gratitude in International relations.
Trump Inaugural Drew Big Dollars From Donors With Vested Interests
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/19/us/politics/trump-inauguration-sheldon-adelson-fundraising.html
Is online-poker next?
Eric Newhill – You compare the cases of the Armenians and the Palestinians – “Just as Armenians lost their ancient homelands (and lives) to Turks.”
I’d respectfully suggest that these two cases are not similar.
1. The ethnic cleansing in the Armenian case was mainly a completed ethnic cleansing. The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians was incomplete. Completed ethnic cleansing often results in stability. Incomplete ethnic cleansing often does not result in stability, as we see in the case of the Palestinians.
2. Turkey is not surrounded and greatly outnumbered by Armenian co-religionists. Israel is surrounded almost completely by Palestinian co-religionists.
3. The Turks who replaced the Armenians were not put there by the West and sustained in their occupation thereafter by the West.
I’s suggest that the correct comparison is not the Armenian genocide. It’s Rhodesia. There the dispossession was also incomplete. Most surrounding countries were also not sympathetic to the whites. The main difference between the Rhodesian and the Israeli case is that we (the British) were either unable to or unwilling to sustain the whites of Rhodesia in their occupation, whereas the Americans are able to and willing to sustain the Israelis in their occupation. Rhodesia ended when we failed to or could no longer sustain it. Israel will end when the Americans can no longer sustain it.
I hope that demonstrates that the two cases you cite aren’t similar.
I should add that I believe the Jerusalem decision is very much to the disadvantage of the normal Israeli. It’s another nail in the coffin for any possibility of a permanent compromise and will ultimately spoil the chances for the Israeli Jews of remaining where they are.
Yes , in return for bringing in their accumulated wealth and investing, they wouldn’t want any other burdens including a constant war in their homeland and class differentiation. That’s my understanding
I have a question: What has this done to help Make America Great Again?
“Hindus and Buddhists seem to co-exist if not totally assimilate better because they tend to not be violent.” for “love of god”, have you check Myanmar, or Kashmir news lately?
Babak – I believe you have summed up precisely what the Jerusalem decision could and probably will lead to. One can only wait to see whether things do go that way.
If they do it will be no great victory in one respect. I don’t know what your view is but I had always hoped that the Israelis would make sufficient concessions to genuinely reconcile the Palestinians. They haven’t, and it seems unlikely now that they will, so Trump’s decision on Jerusalem writes the obituary for a permanent Israeli presence in the Holy Land.
Sir,
That is a pretty good point and one that somehow escaped me. How do Russians get along with the Gulfies and KSA? My impression is that the relationship is not very good or strong. With those countries being the main backers of the takfiris, would they run to embrace Russia?
Sure, Russia is doing well with the Iranians and we are not, but that seem to bother us at all. We also blew it with Assad/Syria, but that was done pre-Trump. I think we are good terms with Jordan. Would the Jerusalem thing cause Jordan to turn on us.
I guess I am seeing a potential strengthening of Russian ties with non-Takfiri states, but that was already happening. The takfiri states, albeit covert, are our allies (how weird). So upon further consideration, I’m not seeing much downside from the current status over this Trump move.
LeaNder – First Deshowitz will argue from any perspective depending whose ox he wants to gore, but never Israel’s ox. The supreme court cases you are referring too punted on the issue and left lower court rulings in favor of the more ambiguous birthplace as Jerusalem only because the government argued this is a foreign policy issue.
Most people in America think of Jerusalem as the old city as described in the Torah and Bible. I believe Trump thinks this way too. In 1980 when Israel tripled the land called Jerusalem,the annexation went through with little in the way of objections from other countries because after all it was for the capital. There is a current bill in the Knesset which would annex to Jerusalem the cities of Maale Adumim and Ariel among others. Depending on which law goes through this could involve annexing 35% to 50% of the West Bank and Israel is assumming that other countries will not raise big objections since this is just part of a growing capital of a country.
Jerusalem borders now go right to the municipal line of Bethlehem, essentially a Muslim/Christian city. There is talk of Jerusalem swallowing up Bethlehem so that Jews can become a big factor in the business of tourism in that city. There already is pressure for tourists in Israel to hire Jewish tour guides and companies. Already in Jerusalem tours if you hire a Jewish guide, they will stay far away from the area where Palestinian street vendors ply their trade so that tourists don’t support “those people”. If this approach starts in Bethlehem, I wonder if that would start waking up Christians around the world.
English Outsider – I’m curious what you think the world and U.S. reaction would be if Israel decides to ethnic cleanse the Palestinians from Israel and the West Bank like what is happening to the Rohinhya in Malaysia. Is the whole world so numb that except for a few comments for Israel to stop being bad boys – nothing more is done? Is the whole world coming to the point of “if it does not happen to us – we don’t give a damn”.
This is not as hypothetical an event as it might seem. All it needs is Naftali Bennett and his Jewish Home party to get into power.
Glad you made that suggestion, Eric.
In Pew’s most recent broad international survey of Muslims, published in 2013, the following points are made on the Executive Summary page:
“Around the world, most Muslims reject suicide bombing and other attacks against civilians”
“At least half of Muslims in most countries surveyed say they are concerned about religious extremist groups in their country”
“In most countries where a question about so-called “honor” killings was asked, majorities of Muslims say such killings are never justified”
“Even in many countries where there is strong backing for sharia, most Muslims favor religious freedom for people of other faiths.”
Nothing in those surveys can be found to excuse these generalizations of yours about Muslims and Islam:
“Muslims committed to eternal war against infidels a long time ago.” “Conflict is inevitable. If they could overrun Europe (as they have tried to do) and establish an extended caliphate there, they would.”
“The only stopping them is the only thing they understand; force. Too bad for them if it makes them feel impotent. ”
Perhaps you should take your own advice.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-exec/
jdledell,
What is never heard, or when it is, is quashed to minimize its coverage to the Jewish world and world at large is נָטוֹרֵי קַרְתָּא solution to the whole problem, namely that יִשְׂרָאֵל is to be created by the Divine Hand B”H”, not by the hand of man. Anything less than this approach, they claim will never work. That the Exile was instituted by the Divine Hand, and the restoration is to also be instituted by the Divine Hand. They have a point.
There has been so so much bloodshed and animosity all the way around, Oh how Creation weeps at the sight.
Meant “did not”
Saved money on shuttle diplomacy.
I think he is thinking of the better sort that live in UK and US, for the most part.
I think the appropriate phrase is “quid pro quo”.
Could this be payback for Sheldon Adelson’s $50 million early in his campaign? Of course there could also be the constant harping by Jared & Ivanka.
Of course such an ethnic cleansing would be reported as taking out terrorist nests. CNN & MSNBC and of course Fox as well would be singing praises.
I doubt the Europeans whose thinking has also been significantly influenced by the zionists would care much.
The real question is what would China & Russia say or do. They’ve been very circumspect and Russia’s intervention in Syria is something new and likely very specific due to their previous military relationship.
Tidewater to JamesT and London Bob,
Thanks for the laugh. I needed it. What I have been reading up on recently is why stuff mutates anyway. Yeah, my science education is shaky. This apropos of the recent news from Madagascar. Why did the Black Death move so quickly? Why did the recent outbreak of pneumonic plague jump the Mozambique Channel and run up and down the coast of East Africa so quickly? It wasn’t supposed to.
Answer to the Black Death question, and they have the genome now, from Smithfield burial dump er cemetery in London, circa 1346, 1347, 1348. (Crecy, 1346, too? You’d think they’d take a break.)
Answer is a twenty day incubation period. I didn’t realize that it could have been eighty per cent of some Mediterranean cities. Fifty per cent of Bremen and London?
What if pneumonic plague jumped over to Yemen? Suppose it mutated.
Has any disease in the Indian Ocean region mutated recently? Yes, there was an outbreak of chikungunya on the island of La Reunion in 2005. Over eighteen months 200,000 of the island’s 750,000 residents were sickened.
Chikungunya rarely kills, but it will cause a person so much pain over a period of months that one cannot even sit up. The disease has stayed there for centuries and is now in the Caribbean. A man named Stephen Higgs studied it. “He began by comparing the genome of several known samples from the 1950s and 60s, as well as more recent ones from the Kenyan outbreak in 2005, from early victims of the La Reunion epidemic, and from humans who had become infected later in the outbreak. There, buried deep in the genome of the virus from the La Reunion outbreak, was Higgs’ answer: the virus had mutated. Only one single nucleotide had changed–the 226th position on gene E1–but it was enough to allow the virus to be transmitted by the Asian tiger mosquito rather than the Ae. aegyptae…” (The Asian tiger mosquito is now, I think, the predominant mosquito on the US east coast. )
“The protein that replicates the genetic material in chikungunya isn’t very accurate, which means there are lots of mistakes and mutations. If one of these mutations provides an advantage, it can easily sweep through the population…” (NOVA NEXT. ‘Stealthy, Debilitating Disease is Poised to Sweep the United States.’ By Carrie Arnold on Wed, 19 Feb. 2014.)
The largest and most sophisticated program of developing biological weapons was done by the Soviet Union. There is very little doubt that pneumonic plague has been aerosolized and also reduced to a powdered form that can be distributed by, say, a drone. Who has it? I assume North Korea has it. What about Iran?
Here’s what is interesting. The genome of the Madagascar plague now scheduled to run its course in April is remarkably similar to the genome of the Smithfield Black Death genome. It can be handled by ordinary antibiotics. But if the er blueprint of the plague DNA has been altered or mutated, as in a laboratory, or in an environment that is particularly conducive to a mutation, then the plague could now be perhaps unstoppable.
Diptheria is now in Yemen as well as cholera. Interesting that Chimera, one of the Soviet BW programs, considered marrying two diseases together, and one was diphtheria, which is also pulmonary; that is, it can be spread by a sneeze. When I was eighteen I was one of a crew that brought a sailboat up from Florida. I stood watch with the boat pro, who told me some stories. He had been on a schooner in Alaska that went from little port to port, settlements that could very well have been mostly Inuit. They may have been in the fur trade, seal skins? They came to one of these and saw the yellow quarantine flag up. They waited for the dockmaster and no one showed up. They sent a couple of men ashore and found that everyone in the settlement was dead. I think this must have been 1925.
I think the war will continue in Yemen. Hundreds of thousands are at risk. Right now. It is an Holdomor. I think it is not unreasonable to think that a pandemic could be created and carried into Saudi Arabia by illegal immigrants, like the Ethiopians who number more than four hundred thousand in Saudi Arabia and who cross by way of Yemen. What goes around comes around. Even to here.
Sid,
re: “Now Saudi Arabia and “boy genius” MBS cannot be seen to be publicly on the side of Israel.”
You’re sure? I am not. It appears MBS and the Israelis get along splendidly.
The ‘boy genius’ MBS to me looks like the type who likely gives a crap about what the rest of the world thinks of what he is dazzling, err, doing, as long as he is secured in his power in Saudi Arabia.
Last I read that one of the sheiks he had arrested for ‘corruption’ bought his way out of jail at the price of iirc something like 20 million dollars, suggesting a thing usually called ‘kidnapping’ or ‘extortion’. And that written, that prince ‘got away cheap’, so to speak. It can come worse.
http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/saudi-prince-loses-350-millions-and-5-of-his-wives-in-6-hours-at-the-casino/
And while MBS does all that, he is propagating he is the grand modernizer in the country and has bright ideas about building new super big cities like “King Abdullah Economic City”, in the desert, absurdedly in a country that likely doesn’t need it, and doesn’t have the people needed to build it themselves, and let’s not start to talk about water.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3094052/The-city-springing-DESERT-New-pictures-67billion-project-house-two-million-people-Saudi-Arabia-2035.html
In Yemen Saudi Arabia has so far already killed a couple thousands of Yemenis, destroyed infrastructure a lot and brought AQI & ISIS, siege and bombs and cholera to the country – and yet they fail at getting what they want (win, or to enlist Egypt or Pakistan and mercenaries to do the dirty work) and yet they don’t pay a price politically.
Apparently, it’s a case of an arsonist, and in that case ‘all you need to succeed’ is burning something. That’s likely also why Netanyahu is so happy about Trump’s Jerusalem announcement.
EO,
Interesting thoughts to contemplate.
Walker: In regards to ‘basic justice’. I agree wholeheartedly one does not need to be a lawyer or politico to distinguish right from wrong. In many cases it is self evident. This is one.
Kooshy, rewrite this so I understand it: “Yap, you sure sound don’t, wondering what would your “special love” position sounds like?”
Makes no sense.
I should again say that my knowledge of the ME is not at all on the same level as most of those who write for or comment on SST.
That we in the West have been covertly or semi-covertly intervening in Syria on an extensive scale would not, however, I think be disputed. Nor that the resultant destabilisation was in line with the stated wishes of the Israelis, whatever other motives we might have had as well. That large numbers of people have died or have been displaced as a result of that Western intervention must by now also be clear. As part of that intervention we have been covertly funnelling weapons and Jihadis into a country that was easy to destabilise and that we did, to a large measure, destabilise. That at least is now apparent, both to the expert and to the non-expert outside observer.
That’s history. What is the position now? Maybe Trump wants to pull out. Maybe he doesn’t. Even on this site there as yet is no consensus on that and I certainly can’t venture an opinion. But it is legitimate to argue that if he does want to pull out he has now created the right conditions to do so.
On Israel one needs no special knowledge for it to be apparent that there’s going to be no thousand year rule for the country as it now exists, and probably no future for the country in any form at all.
In my own circle I have had people vehemently disagree with the notion I have put forward – that there is at least a possibility that the Jerusalem declaration could lead to a lessening of Western intervention in the ME. They say that is a callous attitude to take because it ditches the Palestinians. To which I reply that we’ve been ditching the Palestinians since the 1920’s. And although more people, particularly younger people, are now getting seriously concerned about the plight of the Palestinians I don’t as yet see that concern reflected in any real action to improve their condition.
I do not think it realistic to ignore the fact that there is a very large number of people in the States who see the interests of Israel as the same as or as superseding the interests of the United States. We all have our prejudices and inborn convictions and I don’t see there’s much point in hoping that the prejudices and convictions of this large block of voters will change fast. That the Scofield Bible, to speak figuratively, on the one hand, and the Israeli lobby on the other have shaped these convictions is regrettable but it is a fact. Because it’s a fact, the immense military and diplomatic power of the United States is at the disposal of an Israeli government that has been engaged in ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and would like to do more.
I don’t know whether President Trump is a convinced Israel Firster and wants further ethnic cleansing, or whether he wishes to restrain the Israelis. Does anyone know that? In the first case the Palestinians are no worse off than they were before; they’ll be further dispossessed and only the pretexts and the PR will perhaps alter. In the second case the fact that President Trump, as I have argued in my initial comment, may to some extent have neutralised the Neocons and the Jewish lobby gives hope that he may restrain the Israelis. You will know better than I whether it’s realistic to hope for that second case, but if it is to be that second case then the Jerusalem declaration, as I believe the Israelis now call it, will in fact make it easier to prevent or reduce further ethnic cleansing.
That’s assuming the whole damn lot doesn’t go up in flames. If it does then we’ll be sorry for the Israelis and the Arabs who will die. We’ll be sorry for ourselves as well because the flames will scorch us too.
“I don’t think there’s much any of these Muslims can do about it.”
The immediate danger, I would have thought, is the destabilisation of Jordan. The King is already unpopular enough, but there is also a large element of conservative Sunni population, who are close enough to Da’ish in sentiment, and who are only held in check by the mukhabarat. And for whom Jerusalem is a central icon. So yes, something could happen.
And while MBS does all that, he is propagating he is the grand modernizer in the country and has bright ideas about building new super big cities like “King Abdullah Economic City”
Obviously, Wahhabism and modernization are oxymoron.
My question is if the US collapses as the Soviet Union did, how long before Israel will be forced to sue for peace? I seriously doubt that any other country will allow the tail to wag the dog as is the case now.
Nikki is paying her debts to Sheldon and his wife ( for their $250K) with the hope that they will open their wallet once again when she decides to run for office in the future.
Wait for her act today at the UNSC: hopefully the French and the UK won’t fall for her “flirting” charm 🙁
Colonel,
There are rumours that it is Jared Kushner, with the help of Aryeh King, who wrote Trump’s declaration about Jerusalem.
Check Richard’s comment bellow,
kooshy,
So they are buying obligation free citizenship.
Kooshy,
I agree with your long term picture. That’s what I’m saying. Muslims are being unreasonable by western standards – and so are the zionists. For inflexible religious reasons Muslims don’t want filthy infidel jews next to their sacred rock and mosque. They know that long term, perhaps even many generations in the future, they will prevail as long as they remain obstinate and unwavering. I have said that on this thread and at other times on this blog. Silly westerners don’t understand how the middle eastern mind works. They actually believe the BS they are served and think that most people in the region are just like them and want fair and just solutions to this and other matters. I keep saying that the true mindset is zero sum. The ability to maintain a grudge/vendetta is impressive an unknown in the western world. The presence of history as having meaning as if it were alive to this very day is also unknown in the west where progress and forgiveness are more valued. People think I’m a bigot for saying that. So be it. At least you, who know, are agreeing with me.
Iraqi treatment of the Palestinian refugees living in Iraq after Saddam’s government fell in 2003:
https://reliefweb.int/report/iraq/iraq-hundreds-palestinian-refugees-evicted-landlords
“Amidst the widespread politically motivated and criminal violence in Iraq, Palestinians have been targeted more than other minorities because of resentment of the privileges Palestinians received during Saddam Hussein’s rule, and suspicions that they are supporting the insurgency.” – HRW
https://www.hrw.org/report/2006/09/09/nowhere-flee/perilous-situation-palestinians-iraq
I think the writing has been on the wall for a few decades now. Two things need to happen: Jerusalem should be the capital of a single state between Mediterranean and the Jordan, and that single state needs to be a democratic polity with equal rights for all its citizens, not a medieval theocracy that masquerades as a modern state. The second, I think, cannot take place without the former, or more accurately, with the recognition that the former has already taken place (i.e. there cannot be a meaningful two-state solution, where “Palestine” is a “real” state). I have no doubt Trump has done what he did because of his vanity/incompetence/ego, but I still think it’s a progress. It is, however, a huge shame that, in the short to medium term, he has brought the wrath of the Muslim world upon us needlessly (in that it’s not our business to meddle in the Middle Eastern affairs).
Colonel,
Chihuahua , Adel al-Jubair is out of his position and been replaced by Khaled bin Salman as new Saudi Foreign Minister. Guess another son and will work well with his brother: KSA Ambassador in DC.
FWIW, Gulfies and Saudis are no more friends of USA than they are of Russia. They back a lot of suspicious characters who don’t like us much, to say the least. I imagine that Russians keep their relations with Gulfies and Saudis businesslike, without letting things get “personal.” That’s a worldview that everyone should adopt, at least when it comes to diplomacy. We (US) have trouble doing that: we want our business partners to be “friends,” but we also seem to have trouble keeping deals “businesslike” when the partners are not “friends” (we often seem to find ways to go back on the spirit of the contract when we don’t like our partners). This does not seem like a recipe for successful diplomacy in the long run.
KHC
I suggested a confederation of three cantons; Israel, West Bank and Transjordan thirty years ago. The confederate capital would be Jerusalem. the Israelis would not hear of it then and will not now. we have no control over this. To think so is delusion. pl
I think we can agree that “… Jerusalem should be the capital of a single state between Mediterranean and the Jordan…”.
However, it would be called “Islamic Republic of Palestine”, in the ripeness of time.
Meanwhile, the religious war for possession of Palestine would continue.
I suppose if Israeli leaders fly to Tehran and beg, really beg, Ayatollah Khamenei to intercede on their behalf he might find it expedient to let them keep to the 1948 borders.
But even then, the idea of Jerusalem as a UN-administered city is untenable; in my opinion.
There will be losers in this war and there would be winner; equitable disposition of Palestine is not in the cards.
Col. Lang
Do you believe it is inevitable that the rest of the world will realign with China & Russia against the West, and in particular the US as time passes, since the US & the West in general have been a force of destabilization in global affairs over the past 20+ years? It seems that since our politics have been captured by Zionist/Neocon/R2P attitudes there’s a low probability of change in our policies anytime soon.
Did that first thing.
Nikki is paying her debts to Sheldon and his wife
I don’t doubt for a second that they are all corrupt to one degree or another.
blue peacock
Yes. pl
khs,
I think you’re correct. It’s a pit of vipers.
Fred, my understanding, is they do obey the laws of the land, but if they don’t like the laws, and find an opportunity to move to where they are more secure, and can grow and prosper with
Thier families and wealth away from trouble they move again. That is the history of Jewish people, check it out, it’s called exodus, I don’t blame them. That is not like Zionism the love and loyalty for a land that is not thiers.
Babak,
I think you’re right that, eventually, in a century or two, what is now called Israel will be Islamic Republic of Palestine, especially if things don’t change very soon (and it’s probably already too late to change that long term trend). The real question is whether the process will be long, drawn out, and violent, with a lot of blood shed (and I mean a lot), or whether it will be relatively peaceful and orderly, with comparatively less (but likely quite a lot) blood shed along the way (even if equally long and drawn out). The danger of the Trump declaration, so to speak, is that it makes the former (the violent path) more likely, with those who are not necessarily involved in the region mixed in needlessly, but I’d been skeptical that that path could be avoided even if the Westerns maintain the fig leaf of non-recognition anyways.
Things will always get worse.
More broadly, there could be a global war which would destroy the existing civilization of Islam – just like Chinese Culture and Civilization was destroyed between 1905 to 1975 – to be replaced by a brutally ruthless civilization that would make Teymur the Lame look like a humanitarian.
Eric, you feel it was an expression of weakness only when people reflected about Jerusalem’s status? Why they thought back then, Jersualem should remain something like a “Corpus Separatum”? That was a stupid bow to Christians and Muslim only? Nothing more to say?
My point was>n> that Muslims committed to eternal war against infidels a long time ago and building the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount was a belligerent a-hole act by conquerors. Now the table has turned with regards to this bit of symbolism. The eternal war always existed and always would regardless of this decision.
I am not surprised. Not at all, but your comment deserves the today’s crown. This was to be expected. I should check the celebrations on David Horowitz, Frontpage.Mag, the Conservative Treehouse, Breitbart, Daniel Pipes more arbitrary picks. I am sure there is already a larger celebration going on.
Let me be clear, I find your comment pretty disgusting. I choose my favorite passage with the Dome of the Rock. That has to go, since after all there can be only things symbolizing the Rock of Israel? And that should be the III Temple?
By the way, you would be surprised how many churches are built on earlier spiritual/pagen places of worship. Not that you are interested in those matters really? Are you?
You may know what you are talking about in your professional field, but in this context your are simply parroting an all too familiar tune. This helps a lot. From now on I will ignore your collective terms for whatever you consider the enemy camp around here. That’s why I awarded you today’s crown for your comment.
Not that I am surprised, pieces of the puzzle fall into place quite well now.
No, I don’t think so, IMO, US is not looking for friends, partners or even allies in her strategic relations, they only want clients and not partners, nevertheless they better Ben friendly. Thier foreign relations is like, a relation of a sole supplier and consumer. Ironically even small business inside US, operate and have this same relation with the large US corporations. Like in printing industry, there are only few very large paper manufacturers/suppliers who shape and dictate in every form the smaller print componies. If you don’t like thier term and policies you wouldn’t survive, it is not easy to brake away. IMO, that’s how PG monarchs and other US clients feel that’s how Shah felt he said so to David Frost.
“On Israel one needs no special knowledge for it to be apparent that there’s going to be no thousand year rule for the country as it now exists, and probably no future for the country in any form at all.”
This is precisely true. The entire Zionist notion of a “Fortress Israel” in the middle of hundreds of millions of Muslims was an idiotic premise to begin with, and it is a testament to the stupidity of human beings that any significant number of people ever bought into it.
The fact that it has survived for the last half century is solely due to the support it received, first from Europe and then the US. It is gradually losing its support in Europe, and it’s only a matter of time (perhaps a lot of time, however) before it loses the support of the US.
Before then, I suspect it will get involved in a scrape it can’t get out easily with a country (or multiple countries) that is willing to do it serious harm. I suggest Russia will be the one, despite the fact that Russia has absolutely no desire to harm Israel – at this time. But Israel’s designs are diametrically opposed to Russia’s interests in the Middle East and eventually the two may be forced to clash.
While there are few scenarios for this, Israel continues to want to get a war started with Syria and Russia will not allow that. A US/Israeli war against Hizballah in Lebanon could spill over into Syria forcing Russia to intervene. A US/Israeli war against Iran could also force Russia to intervene on Iran’s side, although I view that as less likely. The complicating factor is US involvement. If the US stays out of the Lebanon/Syria Israeli attacks, however, then Russia could intervene for Syria’s benefit, if not Lebanon’s.
The problem for the Muslim world is that no Muslim country or combination of countries (near Israel) has the military capability to take on Israel’s nuclear military (with the possible exception of Turkey.) So they pretty much need to ally themselves with a country that has enough military clout to confront Israel. This may be one reason why Turkey and Iran are getting closer to Russia and vice versa.
And, of course, if Israel continues on its genocidal course, eventually a real anti-apartheid pressure movement could come into existence which would break the Israeli economy and force them to heel, even forcing them to disarm their nuclear arsenal which should be a priority.
The long-term viability of Israel is next to zero. But it may be decades before that proves true.
Russian VESTI broadcast segment is saying that Trump has started a new Intifada.
Russia has very good relations with Israel and Israelis will take no steps against Russia. Note that in this manner Putin has neutred Israel Lobby in USA, that lobby and cohorts will not work against Russia.
LeaNder,
It is one thing to build your own sacred shrines on the site of the same of a culture that has been thoroughly vanquished and another to build them on the sacred site of a culture that is very much alive.
That is really the heart of the issue here. Muslims calculated, somewhat reasonably, that the Jewish culture was destroyed, never to return. However, they calculated wrong. Now we have the problem of two cultures claiming the same sacred sites. Neither culture is being reasonable.
I continue to be totally unclear as to how officially naming Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel changes anything. There is going to be a capitol put on top of the Dome of the Rock/Al Aqsa mosque. Access, by Muslims, to those shrines isn’t going to be cut off.
Everyone is blaming Trump and Israelis for whatever fallout may occur, but how are Muslims being even remotely reasonable in this? If we divert the discussion to the subject of the Palestinians, then there is room for developing an Israel the unjust story line. But, as Col Lang has made clear, the issue at hand is the reaction of the > 1 billion Muslims worldwide.
That 1.2 – 1.8 billion Muslims can’t handle their sacred shrines being in a location that is also, in name, the capitol of the Jewish sate. That is what we are talking about here.
Yes the Ottomans kept Jerusalem open to people of all faiths. Well, Jerusalem is currently open to people of all faiths to visit and worship at holly sites, as far as I know. The Ottomans were Muslims. Jews are not. Those are the only change in variables and status of the geography. Again, Muslims seem as though they will only be satisfied if Muslims control Jerusalem. Some of our Muslim friends here appear to agree with this assessment.
Yet this simple formula seems to escape many of the others commenting. That is why I keep saying that there is no realistic solution that is going to work short of taking a side and eliminating those on the other side. IMO both of the major players involved (Muslims and Zionists) have already long ago reached this conclusion. I think the US did too. An unrealistic solution would be to remove the temple mount and thus remove the geographic fixation for all.
correction – ISN’T going to be a capitol put on top of the Dome of the Rock
Richardstevenhack,
I agree with your assessment re; the long term survival of Israel. Adding to what you say, think about the Muslim invasion of Europe that is currently occurring (e.g. there is a Muslim Mayor of London). Think about all the desire in Europe to appease Muslims. In time, Muslims will acquire more political power and European support for Israel will be kaput. Europe will be unfriendly toward Jews as it always has been. Where will the Jews of future generations go to be safe and prosperous? They have two hopes; a continued existence of Israel and the USA.
Trump signaled that the US is still a strong ally when everyone else is signaling a bleak future for Jews – basically condemning future generations of Jews to live in a diaspora in unfriendly lands. The pogroms and the holocaust are still prominent in the Jewish psyche. That is understandable . He also signaled that he doesn’t give a damn about what Muslims think *if they are going to be unreasonable*. Lots of people here are discounting all of that and bashing on Israel in favor of Muslims. IMO, people are not thinking deeply about what the Jewish perspective is like. Way too much social justice perspective not be applied to Jews. The Arabs could solve the problem of Palestinians’ conditions quickly and easily. But for the umpteenth time, this isn’t about Palestinians. It is about Muslims not accepting that the temple mount/Al Aqsa/Dome is in non-Muslim territory.
It’s odd that people here will indulge in all this sound and fury of argumentation, without bothering to correct the BOLD lettering (that Leander started and unfortunately didn’t close).
This is quite off-putting for ordinary readers, besides making the blog look stupid.
Don’t the ‘arguers’ have any interest in ordinary readers following their comments (even if they don’t care about the blog)?
Eric, Mr. Trump has married to an American Jewish Zionist family he’s doing what he said
he will do, to appease them the Jewish Americans an Israel no surprise there, as you agreed, this action in long term is not in US’ strategic interests, it is in his interest that’s all it make the non Jewish experts like PL question this move.
A larger question for the real patriotic Jewish Americans is, for how long do they think they can get away by paying and electing US politicians that put Israel’s and Zionist Americans interests before America’. The question is, don’t the real patriotic American they see one day the larger real patriotic Americans will wake up, and god forbid, blame all America’ misbehaving and foreign policy troubles on Jews regardless if they are Zionist or Israeli firsters or not and ask for revenge. Don’t the Jews ever learn from their own history from the events after WWI?
I have lived and observed the American politics and society (costal) for a long time, I can see from expert blogs and commentators , even on WP and HP there is a fire growing under the calm, don’t the Jewish Americans see this? there is a Persian proverb, that says when fire starts it burns the wet and dry together, regardless.
I don’t know if if Orshalim, Al Quds is the god given right of Jews or not, but IMO, it’s not in the long term interests of US and Jews to be the judge of that.
Colonel,
Speaking of the Muslim world at large, I don’t know, you may be right. But speaking of the Muslim countries near Israel – Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia – I think the evidence is strong that many, if not most, people see the treatment of Palestinians as a bitter injustice and feel deep sympathy for them. My parents saw that when they lived in Lebanon, despite the fact that Lebanese saw the Palestinian refugees as a problem for them at the same time.
Anger at US support for Israel, rooted in sympathy for Palestinians, was also major motivator for the 911 conspirators.
None of that is your war. You have no dog in the religious war between Zionist Judaism and Islam.
kooshy,
they have nowhere else to go to
This reminds me of a quote from someone from Afghanistan fighting against US occupation.
That was HIS HOME and he had nowhere else to go. They’ll prevail again in time like the Persians will this time, if it comes to that.
Walker
i will agree that the surrounding Arabs talk about the Palestinians a lot but like you I know many of them and it has always seemed to me that this complaint about the expulsion of the Palestinians was largely lip service and a convenient stick with which to beat the Israelis rather than the real issue which was the loss of territory seen to be the patrimony of the ‘umma. pl
FB Ali
I think I have now deleted LeaNdr’s original bolding. Does that help? pl
I see an Israeli tourism commercial almost every night on the telly. It looks so glamorous and self righteous. Great place to visit I guess as long as you keep your opinions about their next-door neighbors the Palestinians, to yourself.
God, what an abomination it is. It’s the worst thing going on the planet. Not a place I would ever want to visit. Disgusting any way I slice it. Pure certifiable fundamentalists insanity.
Israel should be allowed to destroy itself. Anyway possible as long as it doesn’t take the rest of us out with it. Maybe this is further movement in that direction? I don’t know?
God help us all?
Babak,
I disagree. I am thinking of a larger picture.
First, with regards to some of our Canadian and American friends, I think the picture needs to be clarified. They are very confused people.
For example, they want to argue from a social justice standpoint in favor of Palestinians and Muslims. Yet who among them is ready to return Toronto to the First Nations (Indians) or even make the small gesture of giving Mount Rushmore back to the Lakota, who consider it sacred? None of course. Yet they want to get all preachy about Israel’s land grabs.
They are quick to bash on Christians who are against abortion or want to teach Bible stuff in schools. How backwards and stupid! Obama called them “bitter clingers”. Yet, we need to honor the Dome of the Rock because Muslims believe that Mohammed sat there and ascended into heaven and will go ballistic if the place is perceived to be profaned. That’s the best the primitives can do and we need to be understanding of their limitations. Now THAT is paternalistic.
They refuse to see obvious things, like that the Gulfies can build man made islands in the gulf and then, on that platform, build fantastic resorts with golf courses, horse racing tracks and luxury hotels. Magnificent feats or engineering and architecture costing gazillions of dollars, yet they can’t construct a nice basic settlement for the Palestinians. Instead they use them as political pawns. The Gulfies will hire people from all over the world to work on such places, but not create a training and hiring program for the Palestinians.
These people are preconditioned to denounce America and side with Muslims (or NoKo, etc). They are self-haters (probably Freudian, but I don’t want to go there). They just use events like this as an opportunity to renounce America, which somehow makes them feel good or something.
For them, Israel is somehow as guilty as the US. That is also weird because usually such people like underdogs, but Israel gets tainted by being close with the US. So there is also a strong anti-Semite urge here too.
I concerns me that they are being played like fiddles. The real issue here is the survival of Israel. Trump, IMO, was signaling that the US will support Israel absolutely. The US took a firm stance. The rest is all window dressing because it was already decided. It is the religious war that has no second place prize.
So these people in the States and Canada (it’s too late for Europe) need to understand that anything short of total US support of Israel means its destruction and the Jews to be left to an uncertain fate in an unfriendly world. If that’s what they want, then I wish they would at least have the honesty and balls to say it. I would at minimum like to know they understand what they have decided will be the fate for Jews. I would like them to see their inherent biases.
Beyond that, when the Muslims set their sights on the US after they’re done taking Europe and Canada, I’d like to think that my great grandchildren will resist them instead of greeting with open arms.
Also, better to fight the Muslims today than a couple generations or so down the line when their numbers are even greater than ours and they may be better armed. This is why Iran must never achieve nuclear weapons capability. So why not throw down the gauntlet and see what shakes loose?
Eric,I am more worried for Jews faith, here in the west with what they are doing here, in US or europe one day this people will get mad and will want to get even again, much the same as jews past history elsewhere in the old world. Romans, Christians, Spaniards,Germans, but never before from or by Muslims or Iranians, all the past holocaust and exoduses was due to westerners, people of the west of suez and bosbros did you ever think of that?
Eric
First, I appreciate your point of view and your vigorous debate and tend to agree with much of what you say.
However, in this debate on this thread, IMO, your POV is just the flipside of the same coin that you decry. Your POV is that the US has the obligation to fight Muslims so that the Jews can dominate their neighborhood. We’ve been doing that for some decades and spent trillions of dollars and shed much blood. How has it benefited our fellow citizens?
We’ve even taken out secular leadership systematically in the Muslim world at the behest of the zionists. Saddam, Ghadafi and Assad were secular and suppressed the jihadi nihilists.
In kowtowing to the zionists and their necocon & R2P fellow travelers we’ve given up essential liberty here at home. Why do you think it is in our national interests to get in the middle of millennia old religious conflicts thousands of miles from home when our own infrastructure gets dilapidated and our liberty continues to erode all in the name of fighting the Muslims?
Then the worse for you, Canada, and the United States, for you cannot prevail against Islam and such posture will, in time,will eviscerate your cherished liberal order; as it already has done so via such things as body scanners, renditions, surveillance, Abu Ghraib etc.
Truely, if ye were wise ye would revise this path you are upon.
I agree but at times one has to watch as things decay and die.
South Carolina did not have to initiate the War Between the States but her population and her freely elected leaders were in a state of emotional fever, likely they thought the war would soon end with their victory.
Al Haram Al Sharif must revert to Muslim Sovereignity for peaceful settlement to have any chance; everything else is neogiable.
But Israelis are loath to do so outside the field of battle.
And they are oblivious that they would be held accountable to any harm that befalls that site.
Yes, thank you! It’s much better without the bolding – feels like people screaming at the top of their voices.
Eric Newhill,
At least you’re being honest.
You also say: “… when the Muslims set their sights on the US after they’re done taking Europe and Canada…”
That reminds me of the Americans who, during the Cold War, are reputed to have looked under their beds every night before lying down – in case there was a Commie hiding there.
I’m a “Muslim in Canada”. Let me assure you that, like most Muslims here, I think of myself as a Canadian first and foremost. Just like Canadians of other faiths, my religious beliefs are my private business and do not impinge on my role as a citizen of Canada.
As far as I can discern, most Muslims in the US have a similar attitude towards their country.
I would suggest that you have nothing to worry about what might happen to your grandchildren due to Muslims. Instead, you might think about the US economy, class warfare, climate change, etc.
FB Ali
IMO some of these repeated simple format errors are deliberate. pl
Excuse me but why don’t you snuff out these “mistakes” yourself by issuing the proper closing tags below the offending comment (in the reply, without deleting it)
Closing italics is </i>
Closing bold is </b>
FB Ali,
I’m sure you are correctly describing the situation in Canada. That is today. With more immigration, especially less selective immigration combined with self destructive PC culture on the part of non-Muslim Canadians, a critical population will be achieved and things will change. Muslims will demand more sharia and they will get it. I predict that within 30 years at least one European country, probably Sweden, will be under Sharia law. That is the trend. Self loathing liberals undermine the existing culture. Muslims increase in numbers and begin to make demands and the liberals give in.
Blue Peacock,
I wasn’t for any of the utterly retarded neocon plans. Agreed massive waste of resources, further erosion of US image and influence in the region. Backfired for Israel (look at all the anti-Semitism here as a result). I am for what Trump did and for letting it be known that anyone who jumps off an existential threat to Israel will be crushed without mercy by the US. If they’re radical enough to destroy Israel over some shrine merely not being under Muslim control, then they need to be destroyed because they’re crazy fundamentalists that can’t be reasoned with and they’ll make trouble for everyone one of these days. IMO, Russia has no love for Islam at all. I am betting they are down with that plan to some extent.
Kooshy and Babak, I appreciate your honesty in this discussion. I like how you guys think that life as a Dhimmi is a good deal for non-believers. excuse me if I don’t accept that proposition. I’d rather fight you.
Kooshy,
“The question is, don’t the real patriotic American they see one day the larger real patriotic Americans will wake up, and god forbid, blame all America’ misbehaving and foreign policy troubles on Jews regardless if they are Zionist or Israeli firsters or not and ask for revenge. Don’t the Jews ever learn from their own history from the events after WWI? ”
A lot of blaming the Jews for what has happened to them. IMO, you’re just shy of claiming that they had it coming to them in the holocaust.
What I know is that being the victims of centuries of pogroms and then a final solution leaves a deep impression n the collective psyche. In the case of Armenians, there was only Muslims to worry about (the Turks and Kurds that did the killing and thieving and the Arabs that bought the children as slaves). The rest of the world was and is a friendly place. How much worse it must be in the Jewish mind where they have to worry about the Muslims and the rest of the world; which has shown ample hatred over the centuries.
So they find relative safety in America and they get seek to establish insurance by controlling the entertainment, media and politics sectors’ sectors that influence public opinion and policy. I don’t blame them. I understand it. Maybe all of that backfires on them. Maybe it works. What other choice did they have? They have to try, don’t they?
Or they can disappear forever.
You have decided they should face the very real risk of disappearing. Fine. I have no particular affinity for Jews myself. But then I have less than an affinity for Muslims, who I think should disappear. I couldn’t care less about your sacred rock (the desert is full of rocks) or al aqsa mosque. I find the idea childish, idiotic and backwards; not to mention dangerous. That offends you. It offends some of your brethren to the point of homicidal rage. It’s all a Hobbesian struggle. We choose sides and seek to defeat the others not because we are right in some objective universal sense, but because it is in our nature to fight – and humans fight to see what ideology will prevail as much as animals fight to see which creature carries the stronger DNA with regards to physical traits.
So the Jews fight to survive with the US assistance they have garnered. Muslims (and others) here are suggesting that the US cut the Jews off and leave them to their fate. I think there is a happy medium. We support Israel/Jews, but we don’t go diving in head first on every crazy scheme they cook up. In fact, being the benefactor, we decide what is appropriate action, when, where and how. Israel should know that the US will defend against existential attacks, but not day to day crap. That might cause Israel to tone it down a bit. If Israel deliberately provokes something that appears to be existential in an scheme to get the US t preemptively take out a perceived future threat, then the US should leave Israel high and dry. This should be clear up front. No more Iraq wars. No more Syrian interventions with “moderate” head choppers, etc.
The Muslims will have to suck it up. They are not going to take possession of Jerusalem. They will have access to their special place on the temple mount. We can talk about other issues that are still on the table. We don’t care if you’re angry. If you want to start a war over this, then we will annihilate you. If you want to run to Russia over this, well we have pre-arranged things with Russia. Done. Muslims loose because that which is their greatest strength is also their greatest weakness and it has caused them to be retarded scientifically, industrially and militarily.
My final comment; why back Israel at all? From the Hobbesian point of view, they are part of our ideological background. Whereas Islam is a cheap knock-off of the Judeo-Christian tradition created by the rejected Semitic tribes. Perhaps due to the rejection they posses an imbedded animosity towards the real deal.
[Sahih Muslim, book 041, number 6981] Ibn ‘Umar reported Allah’s messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: you will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him.
[Sahih Muslim, book 041, number 6983] Abdullah b. ‘Umar reported Allah’s messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: you and the Jews would fight against one another until a stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.
[Sahih Bukhari, volume 4, book 52, number 176] narrated ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar: Allah’s apostle said, “you (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. the stones will (betray them) saying, ‘o ‘Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! there is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.’”
jld
I do not wish to police the writings of all comment writers. This is my retirement hobby. Remember? pl
Eric Newhill
Your comments about Islam and the Muslims have become so extreme and hate filled that I am not going to allow them from now on. pl
Spot on, and it is probably the reason we wiped out the Neanderthals, not because they were more stupid, likewise the Han Chinese wiped out other ethnies in mainland China, and the Japanese the Ainous, and the Arabs conquered all around Arabia, etc, etc…
So we end up with a bunch of well honed “warriors”, shall we play last man standing or find a more commendable issue?
I mean beyond the lefty idiocies of “end of history”, “safe spaces” et als.
I think he is representative of real people, likely tens of millions think like him but are afraid to say it – like this German fellow I had the misfortune of meeting 31 years ago. They all think that there is a margin for them and their civilization in a war against Islam.
Castellio:
Are you paying attention to Eric Newhill’s comments?
That is why we need a cease fire over Palestine; else there will be number of nuclear-armed states pointing at EU capitals.
I hope you can see how shallow this Liberal Order is and how quickly it melts away under the fires of religious passion.
Maybe some should tell Trump about the Tom Clancy book “The Sum Of All Fears” where Jerusalem becomes Vatican City like state.
The status of Jerusalem as an International City under UN admin is still on the UN books, as Resolution 181 has never been revoked.
When Britain left Palestine in haste there was never an opportunity for an International regime to be set up.
Given the significance that Jerusalem holds for Muslims, Christians and Jews and free access to the Holy Places then surely an implementation of a this is the only way that the issue of Jerusalem can be resolved.
Eric, thank for your comment, FYI I don’t agree “Dhimmi” nor I practice it, but if a society, country, religion decide to practice it as a law I will not fight it. I live in US, there are many lows in US I dislike, like not allowed walking naked on Santa Monica beach, like folks in French beaches can, I am not fighting that law, like I am not fighting the Hijab laws in Iran or elsewhere, however I will complain and talk about it as long as, complains is allowed.
I do not think UN retains that level of legitimacy which it enjoyed in 1947. I do not think that arrangement is feasible any longer.
kooshy and New Babak
The new Babak can’t speak English well nor do reasonable research. I suspect neither of you know what “dhimmi” means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi pl
I am quite familiar with this. But Wiki is wrong, they were not 2nd class citizens, they were second class subjects of whoever was the local or imperial potentate. There was no notion of citizenship until reforms of late Ottomans and Qajars. EN is raising a bogus issue, as though there were any Rule of Law anywhere.
Condor – you say of Israel “what an abomination it is. It’s the worst thing going on the planet. Not a place I would ever want to visit. Disgusting any way I slice it. Pure certifiable fundamentalists insanity.”
I think if you visited Israel or talked to people who’d visited you’d find quite a different picture. Of course they have their nutters. So do we and so do the Americans, allowing for the fact that we’d probably seem nutters to them. But the picture I’m getting of the average there is quite different. A decent functioning society, more free-spoken than here – they have a far greater social toleration of dissident viewpoints –
maybe fewer drugs, I wouldn’t be sure about that, and not so much alcohol.
It’s not a bad place, for many Israelis and for some Palestinians. Different for the Oriental Jews, maybe, I don’t know much of them. But what matters is how these decent normal people are coping now.
I’d say that many of them are coping by simply withdrawing into their own private concerns because they know there’s nothing much to be done on the political level. I’d say they’re like us, except they live closer to the edge. Caught up in a vast uncontrollable machine that they can do nothing about. That’s us too, isn’t it?
Yes, what is being done in their name is as you say an abomination. What’s being done in ours is an abomination. That makes neither them nor us insane. Merely powerless.
Colonel, thank you sir, I think I understood Eric correctly, the word (which originally comes from Middle Persian) for extra taxing non Muslims is جزیه, I think it was practiced and originates before Islam in Sassanian Iran. I am not familiar with Islamic law like Babak is, but I believe is different than Dyeh=دیه or retribution for crimes
Eric Newhill, the big problem is that you assume the present situation will be permanent. I have no doubt the present situation will be stable for the next 30-50 years but then…?
First rule of colonization is that the colonizers must shallow the original population, so if you want stable then the Jews must shallow the Arabs like the Native Americans and Hawaiian got overwhelmed. I don’t see that happening. Yes the Palestinians will get crushed but not the Arabs.
A hundred years from now the world is a very different place. Russia could well have a Muslim majority population due to higher birth rates. The rest of Europe depending on how immigration and demographic changes plays out will possibly have large African groups or small and weak economies, in short they may not care a damn about Israel.
Ditto with the US. Here immigration could also influence the US population’s willingness to get involved in a conflict for little value. Plus all the other changes the shift in economic power will bring to the global scene. China is just the tip of the spear.
kooshy
In classical Islamic culture Muslims were not taxed at all. They tithed in Zakat. pl
I don’t know how to deal with this much nonsense, so I’ll stick to the most obvious point.
Iran does not have and never has had any interest in nuclear weapons, except for a “feasibility study” back when they were afraid Saddam had such a program. They have zero use cases for nukes, understand that perfectly well and have said so repeatedly. They are one of the few countries in the world that have explicitly rejected nuclear weapons on practical, military, religious and geopolitical grounds.
Beyond that, the whole “clash of civilizations” nonsense you promote here is ridiculous. Muslims may be as stupid as Christians and Jews, but it’s a far cry from that to them taking over the world. Whereas it doesn’t take a believer in the Protocols of Zion to see the expansionist and fanatical nature of Zionism.
We are in clashes of civilizations; Islam vs. Western Diocletian one, that one against the Eastern Orthodox, as well as the internal clash of Seljuk Civilization and the non-Seljuk one within Islam itself. Putin understood this so he inserted Khatami’s “Dialogue of Civilizations” in his 2007 Munich speech.
EH, I suspect, is fighting the Armenian massacrec of early last century, arguing with me and Kooshy, whose country admitted thousands of Armenian refugees at that time.
6 April 2017 Russian foreign ministry put out this statement..
“We reaffirm our commitment to the UN-approved principles for a Palestinian-Israeli settlement, which include the status of East Jerusalem as the capital of the future Palestinian state. At the same time, we must state that in this context we view West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.”
http://www.mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/-/asset_publisher/cKNonkJE02Bw/content/id/2717182
27 May 2017 resolution S.Res.176 was submitted to the US senate and agreed to 5 June 2017
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-resolution/176/text
Trump declares Jerusalem Israels capitol December.
Within days, Putin visits a few countries in the area.
Coincidence?