Israel has reportedly conducted missile strikes on Iran, targeting sites in both Iran and southern Syria. ABC News, citing senior U.S. officials ,said that Israel has launched retaliatory strikes following the recent attack from Iran.
According to ABC News Chief Global Affairs correspondent Martha Raddatz, Israel’s missile strikes have specifically targeted a site in Iran. Videos circulating on social media purportedly show the aftermath of the strikes, with air defense systems engaging and air raid sirens blaring near the Shahid Salami military base in Isfahan, Iran.
Additionally, the attack reportedly extended to sites in southern Syria and Iraq. Reports from Iraq suggest that airstrikes have targeted a building in Baghdad where a high-level meeting involving several Iran-supported groups and members of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps was taking place. However, these reports remain unconfirmed at this time.
Mehr news agency reports that flights to Tehran, Isfahan, Shiraz and all other airports in west Iran have been suspended.
Videos circulating on social media purportedly show the aftermath of the strikes, with air defense systems engaging and air raid sirens blaring in Iran. The precise details of the targets and the extent of the damage caused by the strikes remain unclear at this time.
Comment: Anyone want to make bets on the Iranian retaliatory strike to this retaliatory strike? Or where this will end up?
IRNA said the attacked sites in Syria were the “Adra” and “Al-Thala” military airport and a radar battalion located between the city of “Adra” and the village of “Qarfa” in southern Syria. In Iraq, explosions were reported in the al Imam area of Babel.
Iran says her nuclear facilities near Isfahan are safe. Airbases at Isfahan are home to at least two squadrons of F-14 Tomcats. I don’t know if the Tomcats were targeted.
TTG
Tomcat, 50 years old. Really good stuff and nice plane.
Lack of information but we can already tell, smart Izzie. The number of missiles sent by them is about the number of missiles received a few days ago, with as little damage.
I hope the Iranians leave it at that. I hear Iranian theater artists are very good.
Even if the F14s can be repaired as well as a farm tractor, the current models must have nothing left but tin on their bones. They look great, lined up neatly in the parking lot.
Theater again.
At the cost of today’s wars, the theater of war is much more suitable.
US Air Force paid $90,000 for $100 worth of bolts.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13325745/Mike-Waltz-bushings-air-force-military-overspending.html
Tried to search, nothing but echo chamber results. Would like to see the contract that procured these. Apparently these are jet engine parts, so undoubtedly there has to be a mile of paper to go with them. Are these parts bought for USAF in house engine overhauls or by a contractor doing engine overhauls? These parts aren’t from DLA but directly procured? Too many unanswered questions to make any judgement, other than an obvious “gotcha” moment for a congress critter.
None of this should make us forget the horrific war in Gaza. Correction: it’s not a war, it’s a massacre, a butchery, an event created by inhumanity. The strongest side is losing because of its disproportionate strength. The more he massacres, the more he loses. Besides, what could be his victory? However vague and variable, it’s unattainable.
The Izzies have a strong tradition of flouting international law. In the past, it was stealthy and generally ignored by their supporters. In this war, they’ve done it in full view of anyone who cares to look. And this will not be without consequences, even if it takes time.
I recall the fate of the Frankish kingdoms that resulted from the Crusades in these same lands. They lasted as long as they were supported by the West. They disappeared very quickly (30 to 80 years) when this support failed. Another lesson from this failure: as support waned, the leaders of these kingdoms further accelerated the decline with idiotic measures, some of them unnecessarily discriminatory and racist. They made themselves intolerable and weak.
The Izzies need to make a huge effort in terms of brainpower. Their strength, crude strength, will never be enough.
Israel started as a terrorist nation, and it remains a terrorist nation. The sooner that it is neutered, the better.
They are universally despised. To see how deep the anti-Israelism or anti-Semitism goes check out this holy roller below, Rick Miles. This is vintage, hardcore anti-Semitism of the blood libel variety (Jews kill Christian children and drink their blood etcetera). When people like Rick Miles roll out comments like this in public you know the sea has really changed. Did it to themselves. I despise Israel and have very little respect at all for Jews anymore even though I had a Jewish father but at least I know what this is – pure hatred. It’s always been there and the reasons have become evident over the course of my life of over 7 decades. There will be hell to pay.
https://x.com/DefundIsraelNow/status/1780990525623185409
Our leaders are low life scum, who screw little girls, so the Jews can screw America.”
– Rick Wiles
Ironically, The current Iranian government system (post Shah) started – and continues – as a terrorist nation; from the 1979 violation of the US embassy in Tehran to sponsoring attacks on US embassies throughout the region, to all manner of divisive and violent activities in Yemen, Gaza, Israel, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon. Iran = number 1 sponsor of terrorism in the world.
Iran still executes people for “crimes” such as blasphemy. Civil rights and individual freedoms are not respected in Iran.
Iran is disliked by Pakistan, Afghanistan, The Arab countries and more. Other than a few terrorist groups that Iran sponsors, Iran is almost universally despised.
Perspective is a good thing to have.
Eric,
Yes I know about Iran under the I-a-toll-ya-sos. I remember the nauseating fountains of blood. I remember 15 yr old girls executed for making out with their boyfriends. I have no fondness for them. But I am human and I’ve come to thoroughly despise the Israelis and I’m not too sweet on the Jews in general either, to put it mildly. Yes they have been victimized, but they are profoundly aggressive victimizers themselves.
F&L,
I appreciate your honesty and your ability to see in something other than black and white, Seriously. It is both rare and refreshing.
We can agree to disagree – and that’s fine. It’s so much better than the typical mendacity, personal attacks and cheap propagandizing that constitute the typical comments on this topic.
Eric Newhill,
It was 2008 and I was staying in a three star hotel in Damascus. I came bounding down the stairs around 8pm to find the night porter and his friend standing in front of the TV at the front desk watching some Arab news channel. I said “What are you guys watching? Al Jazeera?”. The night porter turned to me, and nice as could be said “No. Al Manar. We think it is much better.”
I’ve been to Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Oman, Kuwait, Bahrain, and Qatar. It is not Iran whom they despise, it is Israel. But don’t worry Eric – they don’t despise you. They just think you are a brainwashed tool.
(Al Manar looked exactly like Fox News but with swarthy male presenters. I swear they intentionally copied Fox right down to the chyron.)
Here’s an interesting pow from an Arabic telegram channel (warmonitor), I’ll quote the good part of the comment:
”I will put forward a wild theory here:
Israel didn’t even know this was happening, the U.S used their many proxies in the area to send out a couple small drones and have Iranian air defence engage them. Then within seconds jumped and said it was Israel, in an attempt to stop the Israelis from actually committing a mistake by striking something they shouldn’t have. Which makes sense why they started saying it was with “missiles” and “fighter jets” and all that, just to sell it.”
Quite plausible and of course following Walrus’ Law it looks like it has backfired badly because Iran is now laughing at Israel:
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/iranians-mock-israeli-strike-on-isfahan
We’ll know the real thing if and when it happens because the Iranians won’t be laughing.
Such a collection of narcissistic, bellicose, mutts, those Iranians. They fired more ordnance than Israel did. So what? That makes their lame attack more lame than Israel’s because they didn’t hit anything of significance with all of those missiles and drones (except a little Arab girl). Not to mention a material percent of Iran’s missiles went off course and some significant number failed to even launch properly. Then there are all of the missiles that were shot down. The drones were near totally useless, even as decoys for the missiles.
Iran signaled weakness, inability to execute a successful big strike on Israel and an unwillingness to fight – and simultaneously gave away launch sites and other info of great interest to IDF and US intelligence. I guess we should let them beat their chests like dumb apes if it keeps them satisfied.
So many people are so eager to hurt Israel that they are spinning Iran’s abject impotent failure into a victory of some kind. It’s kind of painful to watch, yet funny at the same time.
Sir according to you the Iranians are imbeciles. Perhaps so but the matter of fact is Iran signaled and advised most of the defenders of Israel (US, UK, France, Jordan and a few other countries). So if you are planning such an attack with the full knowledge that these countries will come to Israels rescue as well the defense systems that Israel itself possess, how would you do it? I think they did what any sane military person would do that is send in bunch of decoys and then the real stuff. Oh by the way they wanted to hit to air bases and also told so publically. One of the airbase is in Golan heights which has the world’s most sophisticated air defenses according to Scot Ritter. To me this penetration of the world’s most sophisticated defense system doesn’t look like amateur or imbecilic. Personally I have nothing against Israel but when they engage in ethnic cleaning that is a bridge too far for me to cross. Thanks
Absolutely.In fact the whole war in gaza and the involvement of the iranians is being staged managed by the Americans with the purpose of forcing israel to accept a 2 state solution.Israel is slowly being bankrupted by the usa.I heard they had a 200 billion dollar war chest which is paying to fight against a low cost insurgency.
I learnt in africa that the best way to kill a large python is to bait it with a young goat with nails attached to its body.When the snake swallows the goat it gets its insides ripped open.
mcohen
Please explain how the US veto on Palestinian statehood at the UN yesterday fits in with America’s wicked plan to force Israel to accept a 2 state solution. I’d similarly be fascinated to hear your theory on how Congress voting on shipping billions more US taxpayer dollars there fits in with the plan to bankrupt Israel. Now I know the goyim should just accept the fact that the fruits of their labors are better deserved by the Jewish state, but some of them cling to the silly notion that America has needs of her own. You do understand I trust.
BA,
The fruits of our labor go a lot of places, including Gaza, where our fruits are used to build assault tunnels and rockets and fund the lavish lifestyles of terrorist leaders. The US government likes to spread our fruits thick and wide. Must be kind of fun to be among the Unaccountable.
Lol ….veto.called extracting concessions if blah blah blah
Us aid free.seriously.disappointing Barbara
Biden the (Butcher) Peacemaker will be sure to respond. At 81,000,000 ballots (most in history – which must irritate Barack to no end), a great (unadjusted yet) jobs report, and polls that consistently show (that congress supports Ukraine, Israel, and war but not defending our own border) he’s beating Trump, he will steadfastly stand by (spending another trillion to engage in yet another foreign war) our (how many votes is that in November) “ally” (with whom we have no treaty of alliance or defense). It’s not like he can get the War Cabinet (notice it is never a war dinette set?) in Israel to ‘stand down’, ‘take the win’, or ‘cease fire’. But remember, Israel does what Joe Biden tells them too.
On a related note how’s the German economy looking? Sanctions sure did a number of Russia. Just see the latest IMF report. I’m sure the not yet defeated proxies of Iran (always a proxy and never on their own accord say the ‘diplomats’ and ‘experts’) the Houthis won’t target oil tankers heading to Italy, France, Germany, or other parts of NATO(!). Better open the border to those Chinese made electrics so we can all be driving Solar Powered cars like a commenter here does. Who needs low cost energy and domestic manufacturing when you have China to make stuff for you.
$1 trillion + added to the debt every 90 days now. $90,000 for a $100 bag of bolts. What is there to complain about?
It seems a shame,’ the Walrus said,
To play them such a trick,
After we’ve brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!’
The Carpenter said nothing but
The butter’s spread too thick!’
I weep for you,’ the Walrus said:
I deeply sympathize.’
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.
O Oysters,’ said the Carpenter,
You’ve had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?’
But answer came there none —
And this was scarcely odd, because
They’d eaten every one.”
This guy does his part to make the CUFI idiots feel like it’s time to break out in tongues and convulsions, throats bared.
Actually, I support Israel’s right to violate foreign airspace, blow up consulates and engender a Cuban-style concentration camp on their beach-front, open-air prison. I just think they should do it with their own money and manufactured weapons.
P.S. My father attends evangelical church. On the phone a few months ago he said: “To go against Israel is to go against God.” Pathetic.
Lesly –
Ask your father what his church thinks of Kremlin persecution of Evangelicals within Russia and within the occupied territories in Ukraine.
The problem with the Evangelical Church is they are brain washed to think that Second coming of Jesus would set the world on the right course and would happen only after war. What I don’t understand is just look at his first coming I only can read few miracles but as for setting the world straight it was colossal failure. So the question araises if he couldn’t do it first time around how can he do it this time around? Also the supposed Prince of Peace would wait for a war to brake out and then only come on this earth. Any sane person (I think GOD is sane) would prevent war and death before it happens.
Muralidhar Rao,
I am not going to restate arguments made on this forum too many times already. I will just note the lopsided, untrue and propaganda like nature of your comment. There are many Arabs that live within Israel as well integrated citizens – some in the government and even the IDF. Therefore, your ethnic cleansing accusations – like everyone else’s – are hyperbole.
As for the militant Palestinians, who chant their desire to ethnically cleanse the Jews from Israel (“from the river to the sea” etc, etc), you must ask what can the Israelis do about such a virulent and persistent total enemy. Israel is not at all unique in its approach. Even India and Pakistan split into the two respective countries along religious lines and face each other today with all kinds of weapons, including nuclear.
The Iranians have publicly and continuously wished death on Israel since 1979 – before that Iran and Israel were good friends. Iran stirs up all manner of terrorism against Israel. What to do about that?
I do not understand how people can be so vehemently against Israel unless it is some kind of shallow thinking and/or simple antisemitism.
Sir, First of all I never said that the Palestenians are bunch of saints. But when you have Bibi referencing Amlock solution to the Palestenian problem in Gaza and the President of Israel referencing all Gazans to animals then you have some Cabinet ministers seeking to empty Gaza of Palestenians (who were refugees from other places in Palestine) then I have concern for the welfare of the Israeli state like Gandhi said eye for eye makes the world blind. There was a peace deal made with Palestenians in 1990 under President Bill Clinton, Now 34 years later there is no Palestenian State, never mind 1947 resolution of the UN calling to establish a Palestenian and Israeli State. To me this is massive injustice to local people who have lived there for thousands of years. As per your assertion regarding the partition of India and Pakistan I for one never believed in it because we are one and same people even genetically speaking. I also think that the Jews and Palestinian’s are one and the same people. They both have lived peacefully till the British empire encouraged Jews to form their own state. This is a very sad story. I truly feel sorry for the way British Raj employs this divide and rule strategy. I truly believe in Vasudeva Kutumbakam (Vasudeva is similar to your Adam and kutumbakam is family) Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Iran and Israel were peaceful until 1979.
Let’s assume, for a minute, your criticism of Israel is accurate. How do you not see that political Islam is doing exactly the same thing? Iran, Hamas, the Houtis and only to a slightly lesser degree, Hezbollah, are all very publicly calling for genocide of Israeli Jews. If genocide is wrong on principle, then you must place the same amount of blame on the Muslims who are engaging.
Usually this is where the typical person making your argument would tell me that Zionists started it all and therefore Muslim desire for genocide is justified. And that is where they lose me completely and reveal themselves to be haters with ulterior motives that are perhaps personal/psychological or perhaps information operation related.
Even if we take the Palestinian version of history as 100% true, they are complaining about something that happened two generations ago and isn’t going to revert. This would be like Native Americans perpetually attacking Canadian, US, Mexican, Peruvian etc. citizens For stealing their land. Aboriginal Australians doing the same. Armenians attacking Turks and Kurds. The list is near endless. Is that the world you want to live in? It is not what Gandhi wanted.
Life goes on. With all of the international aid the residents of Gaza could build a very nice life. Eventually, after peace and prosperity, they could even obtain statehood. All the self-styled internet Che Guevaras/virtue signalers/moral posturers, like so many here, actually want Hamas to fight Israel, just as does Iran. These are people bravely squawking on the internet with no skin in the game. They say that it is righteous “resistance” (a common word and concept for the left).
They say that Gazans can’t be prosperous because Israel won’t let them be. Maybe a little truth there, but not 100%. Like all things in life the way forward is a give and take. If the Gazans stopped building tunnels, stopped shooting rockets into Israel, stopped smuggling weapons, Israel would lighten up up a bit. This would become a positive cycle. Good things would ultimately result. I’m sure Gandhi would agree. It would be unsatisfying to all of the internet freedom fighters.
Muralidhar Rao,
Ah, the atheist’s rant.
Free will my man, free will. The wheat cannot be separated from the chaff until each has had the freedom to prove what they are. God/Christ is not our baby sitter.
Also, the Christian world has improved the standard of living exponentially for all humanity. You might want to try to be more grateful and less critical once and a while.
I don’t see this response by Israel setting off big war. Iran has already signaled weakness and an unwillingness to really fight.
This little follow-up by Israel was merely meant to remind Iran that Israel can reach out and touch them – and increase Iran’s fear level a bit.
The Drive/War Zone put up the theory that the “attack” on Isfahan was just probing Iran’s defenses (“stimulating Iran’s most critical air defenses and getting their up-to-date electronic order of battle prior to something larger”), though they then go on to say that they don’t really think that’s likely. (It’s not clear whether they are discounting the whole theory or just the part about “something larger).
Just probing the defenses – and maybe attacking a military airport – would be a surprisingly delicate response by Israel; I’m fine with that. It sends the message – just like the Iranian attack did – that “we could hurt you worse”, without actually causing immediate pain that would impel a response.
If this is the end of Israel’s “turn” in this “game”, Iran won’t need to respond directly with more attacks on Israel (right now…). The “game” can go back to its subtler phase – the tedious part of chess where they just move the pawns around. For the sake of all of us, I really hope that this is the case.
elkern,
I think both attacks were far more kabuki theater than any real attempt to deal some devastating attack.
I think you’re right. Lots of reasons but primary one is that a big enough war can shut down the gulf and sever its oil supply, not to mention threaten critical infrastructure. ( .. and then there’s the little matter of Israeli nukes).
Agreed. Best for Iran to let it end here.
correct. these tit-for-tat actions are a ringing-out to background noise that achieves a return to what passes for normalcy. however, the style which each side presents reveals. for Israel & its supporters they are staged to gain specific intel & “send a message” (hmmm… Iran has a major nuclear facility next to the targeted air base). for Iran it is a domestic PR / pressure release parade directed by the Grand Ayatollah.
what strikes me as I read the ventilation expressed here & elsewhere in these times is (evidently) everyone is susceptible to the latest newspeak; newthink. this is a state of mind where any internally consistent narrative is held as likely true & must be taken seriously as the 2nd law of thermodynamics. add a few choice (or better yet, carefully chosen) fact-like statements, personal observations, doses of deep-rooted bias & bitter generalizations. set to high temp until something burns.
no wonder so many kids-these-days don’t want to play no more.
TTG – I suspect that US (and other) Diplomats were *very* busy for the last few days choreographing this Kabuki. Same with the Iranian response to the Israeli kickoff (bombing the Embassy compound in Damascus).
Assuming this “play” has ended, Biden & State (or whoever helped wrap this up) deserves loud applause.
Sorry, that should be “quiet applause”, because applauding it would make it harder to do again in the future. (most real diplomacy is better done quietly)
elkern,
There was a poll that strongly indicates that the Israeli public is not down for a ride up the escalation ladder with Iran at the moment, understandable with Gaza still unresolved. Most likely the last act in a face-saving dance. Bibi can say he did something, and by trivializing it and refusing to continue Iran can imagine they come away looking like the adult in the room, I suppose, then back to business as usual.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-74-of-israelis-oppose-counterstrike-on-iran-if-it-harms-security-alliances/
I think there is a lot in life that we cannot appreciate until we see it in the rearview mirror. Yes, there is a lot of kabuki theater, but that cannot change that something which has existed since 1948 has changed forever: there is no more unbridled freedom of action for Israel in the Middle East. The precision strikes by Iranian missiles on Israeli military targets and the change in official Iranian doctrine to retaliate in a proportionate way to Israeli transgressions directly, and not through proxies, is a gamechanger. I doubt there will be any more attacks on Iranian embassies, or target assassinations of nuclear scientists. And if there is: buckle up.
Moreover, for the first time the US has brought untofore unexperienced pressure on Israel to deter certain retaliatory actions, so as to prevent the US being sucked into a wider conflict.
It has been my belief, since October 2023, when this current conflict began, that the end result would make Israel a much less safe to live, and thus affect immigration and incentivize emmigration.
Spot on
From Izmir to hagia sophia.an earth gift
Somehow it all looks like Hollywood, just like 10/7 (if you really think that all went down as advertised, you’re a fool). The war that is and for many years has been prepared is never going to be fought. It is being built to extend the first cold war, which was ever used to keep populations in fear and subservient to their masters’ protection.
That’s why I prefer being a war monger, let the dogs slip and see what turns out. The current movie isn’t good. If you still believe in the fantasies of WWI & II, the Vietnam War and Afghanistan, the UN, Central Bankers and the WEF… Perhaps we just don’t get each other.
Although the conquistadors destroyed many of the images they found, there were enough suggestions that the MesoAmerican God Quetzalcoatl was shown carrying a cross, or forming a cross on a tree of crucifixion. The Quetzal is the vision that leads and drives the future. The Serpent body is the totality of the creation being lead forward.
So I relate time within creation to a snake’s skin, cycles contained within cycles moving through time with the motive force of said snake. The pattern of the cycles bound into the pattern of the serpent’s skin. Galaxies, Suns, Planets, Civilizations, Lives, and Histories forming into the structures laid into the Snake’s skin.
Imagine looking through the eyes of the Quetzal bird, or eagle, atop that serpent. Imagine looking through the eyes of civilizations born, living, and dying (“The Decline of the West,” Oswald Spengler). And coming to realize the futility of the testing ground the feathered/winged serpent offers. Then, slaying the dragon might take on a new meaning, or it could be a ruse for confining your thoughts to the present and ever ongoing orthodoxy of mind.
The Israelis targeted an air defense radar site near Isfahan that’s part of the protection of Iran’s Natanz nuclear facility.
That is a bit more than just Kabuki. Hopefully it’s just a one-&-done message that the IAF can and will take out Natanz anytime they want. Or perhaps they do intend a follow up with a kinetic strike against Natanz? I expect they will if Iran responds again. Especially with Nuts-and-yahoo in charge and a fanatic like Gvir as Minister of National Security.
My Dear Leith,
Your insights are fresh air. If I expressed my ‘next steps,’ hahaha, you may just again put me in school.
Cobo –
Your insights are just as good or maybe even better than mine.
PS – I’d make a lousy teacher.
Israel’s national security minister, that narcissistic, bellicose, mutt Ben-Gvir has called Israel’s response “lame”.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/19/benjamin-netanyahu-war-cabinet-itamar-ben-gvir-iran-tweet
Meanwhile, Iran is trolling at the diplomatic level. When asked for a response to the Israeli strike a member of the Iranian foreign minister’s delegation asks “what strike?”. Dumb ape.
https://twitter.com/MayadeenEnglish/status/1781424451176767678
BA,
You really do have an affinity for Islam and Islamic countries don’t you? I’m thinking about all those romance books that women read wherein the main female character is ravaged by a pirate captain, or the leader of a gang of highwaymen, or a vampire – and she loves it. Best thing that has ever happened to her. Yet, in real life, most women avoid that kind of character like the plague – and for good reasons. Have you ever been to post-revolution Iran? How about Gaza? Yemen?
I have an affinity for people Eric. Though not bigots and those consumed by hate. I’d love to talk more, but I’ve been promised a good ravishing by a Muslim vampire pirate. Maybe another time.
TTG
A parody it may be, but here is as good a definition of a Zionist as you’ll find:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWVQZIH-B6U
The U.S. SAYS it is for a two-state solution.
But let’s see what it does in practice:
https://news.antiwar.com/2024/04/18/us-vetoes-palestinian-bid-for-full-un-membership/
As to who is explicitly opposed to the two-state solution, from the article:
Keith,
There are, of course reasons that Netanyahu doesn’t want a Palestinian state – and those reasons are not irrational. The bleeding hearts and social justice warriors all assume that the Palestinians would be satisfied if they got their own country. However, it should be obvious to the objective observer that the Palestinians want Israel – and an Israel with no Jews.
“I will not allow for Hamastan to be switched with Fatahstan, that we exchange Khan Younis for Jenin,” [Netanyahu] said, referring to the Palestinian Fatah party, a Hamas rival that controls the PA in the West Bank.
Why would Israel allow the Palestinians a base from which they would be more protected as they + their Iranian buddies grow stronger in their preparations to attack Israel? The people of Gaza were left to govern themselves since 2005. All they did was prove that their sole focus is attacking Israel. Think of it like a test run for their own state. They blew it. All the international aid that could have been used to start creating something good that could have demonstrated the virtues of a Palestinian people and state and garnished more support. But no. Tunnels, rockets and terrorist attacks.
Eric Newhill,
In his all consuming quest to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, Netanyahu not only allowed the rise of Hamas, he nurtured it. Fatah had accepted the existence and legitimacy of Israel. Netanyahu could not let that stand. He let Hamas take control of Gaza from the Palestinian Authority and aided its aberrant behavior. He thought he could control his Hamas monster, but it turned on him… an age old story.
I thought your last comment to Muralidhar Rao was brilliant. The world would be a lot better if people would just find a way to accept the fact that past wrongs were committed and move on. It’s usually not entire peoples who are incapable of doing this. It’s vocal and driven fanatics who cannot let the past go. And, unfortunately, they seem to be masters of persuasion. Such hatreds are common in Gaza and Israel. They’re common across Eastern Europe and Russia. If all that energy was put into something constructive, like your proposal for Gaza, we’d all be better off. But the world is full of no good shits stoking old resentments and nursing new grievances.
More people ought to read and memorize Rudyard Kipling’s “If.” I did so in 5th grade and recited it in front of my class for extra credit. I’ve tried to live by those words. In shorthand, I think it can be summarized in the spirit of FIDO.
TTG,
No argument and, btw, I do not absolve Israel of everything it has done. I just do not see Israel or Jews as the complete homicidal villains that some of our activist correspondents do. The Palestinians are at least as equally culpable for their own fate; moreso because it is, after all, their fate and they should want to direct it on a better course. I do not believe that they – or anyone – is a powerless victim; a leaf in the wind. Hence my comment above that you like (thx).
Too many here, there and everywhere enjoy a “let’s you and them fight” agent provocateur status; so easy to be so righteous and tough on the internet.
You know that I have a low opinion of Muslims, on the whole, especially Turks, partly based on what they did to my father’s family and millions of other Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks. However, I do not advocate terrorism against Turkey. As you say, FIDO. And that is what Armenians overwhelmingly have done, whether in that tiny corner of what used to be their homeland from ancient times or in the diaspora. They moved on to have successful lives in new lands. The Palestinian inability to do so is that much more puzzling to me for that reason.
Also, having spent 50% of my 0 -18 years in a Middle Eastern diaspora, I knew plenty of Persians/Iranians. They had no animosity toward Israel or Jews. That is something that started in Iran after 1979 by those no good shits stoking old resentments and nursing new grievances, that you mention. Another reason it dismays me to see people here behaving just like those no good shits.
Same with the folks that came to the US during the Lebanese civil war. My father, a lawyer, was sort of a godfather figure to some of these people. They sat in our living room and drank strong coffee or drank Arak and talked for hours. The antizionism just wasn’t there. All these MENA “experts” who harp on Zionism and the Palestinians being the primary focus of the MENA are clueless, IMO, and buying into what serves as a cover story for much deeper political machinations. I was impressed when, a little while back, you correctly pointed out to someone here that the Palestinians are not the central cause of the MENA.
Kipling’s “If” is great instruction. I need to remind myself of it.
Eric: “No argument and, btw, I do not absolve Israel of everything it has done.”
I do not recall a single word of criticism of Israel in any of you many, many posts, Eric.
I’m genuinely curious to read them, so if you can point me to the archive posts I’d be most grateful.
YR,
I save my criticisms of Israel for conversations with reasonable people, who understand that no person nor nation gets it right 100% of the time and that there is always opportunity for improvement. I don’t see the point in sharing those thoughts with thoroughly committed fanatics that argue like cheap lawyers. It would be a waste of my time.
So, Eric, your argument is that you have voiced criticism of Israel, but not where anyone here could hear it.
Well, that’s mighty convenient, isn’t it?
TTG
Not usually, but Zionism is unique. By its very nature it cannot “move on”. Its basis is what Col. Lang described as a “tribal mythology” and until 1991 the UN recognized Zionism for what it is – an inherently racist ideology. Israeli Zionists will move on from exterminating and ejecting the Palestinians when they are all gone and not before. This can only be stopped by the application of force and to beleive differently is delusional in the extreme. The issue to be solved is not a political one, but an eschatological and moral one. There is no equivalence between political Islam and the policies of genocide and ethnic cleansing Jewish supremacists are using to ‘purify’ the land. The closest equivalent is the eugenicist ideology of the Nazis and saying so apparently makes me a Jew-hater. Oh the irony.
Iran and the Axis of Resistance’s beef is with Israel the Zionist entity, not with Jews. Were Israel by some miracle able to move on from Zionism, abandon apartheid and the racist elements of its constitution, I’m sure some accommodation could be made. But short of defeat in war I do not see this happening. Nazism was defeated and Germany emerged as a country willing to live by accepted civilized standards, perhaps Israel will eventually do likewise.
BA,
So the Israelis reject the idea that “diversity is our strength”. Good for them.
But yes, I realize that the idea of a coherent nation consisting of a united people practicing their religion and enjoying their own culture – call it “tribalism” if it makes you feel righteous – is abhorrent to the modern liberal mind – unless it’s China doing it; or Japan, or Vietnam, or Iran or just about anywhere in the world that is not stricken with progressive ideology.
There is nothing unique about Zionism in the least bit. It is more the norm than not. And you’re still conveniently ignoring that fact that something like 2 million non-Jews happily live in Israel and fully integrated citizens.
Eric Newhill,
Hard core Zionists certainly reject the idea that “diversity is our strength”. They reject Christians, Palestinians and Jews not sufficiently devoted to the cause of political Zionism. They reject those 2 million non-Jews living in Israel as fully integrated citizens. They’re a dangerous minority within Israel just like the Salafist jihadis are a dangerous minority within the Islamic world.
Barbara Ann,
Very true. A common definition of a Zionist is also hard to nail down. Those West Bank settlers beating and killing their Palestinian neighbors are far different from all those Israeli Jews on the streets protesting to oust the Netanyahu government, although they probably all agree that Israel should remain a Jewish state. The former are holding the reins of government now, but they are certainly not the majority of the inhabitants of Israel. Nor do I believe they comprise the majority of Jewish Israelis.
TTG,
Sorry, but you are just plain wrong about the 20% of Israeli citizens who are non-Jewish. You are generalizing the sad reality of a minority who are subject to predations of illegal settlers, to the majority. Those settlements are in what amounts to the wild west or a war zone.
Just for one example, something like 14% of the “Old City” of Jerusalem is the Armenian Quarter. It was one of the nicer sections back in the early ’80s (assume it’s still pretty much the same). The residents have had exactly 0 issues with the Israeli government or people. Those Armenians, to my knowledge, are not adopters of Zionism in the least bit. They were there before 1948 and were accepted by the Zionists.
Israel now considers Christians, even Druze (I think) and other non-Jewish/non-Arab citizens “extended Jews”, which is kind of weird and funny, but illustrates the willingness to accept these people as citizens with full rights.
IMO, Israel is wise to be cautious about Muslims gaining too much political power as they would simply vote to kill all of the Jews and take their stuff one day. That kind of thing happens, you know. Only the US and Europe ignores the cultural and national security implications of millions of immigrants not steeped in the culture and with an axe to grind. Such people shutting down bridges and screaming “Death to America” is only the beginning here in the US. They will probably kill off our grandchildren and their children one of these days – they sure would if they could.
Interesting thought about Col Lang relevant to all of this. Yes, he hated Israel. However, he was quite sympathetic to the US South’s attempt to break off from the union to preserve its way of life. Similarly, he liked the Montagnards and their resistance to the communist take over of Vietnam. IMO, he just didn’t like the Jews in US politics and foreign policy and so made a special case out of them.
Also interesting, many Israel haters express sympathy to other causes that are just like Zionism, like the North Vietnamese take over, complete with all manner of assassinations of decent citizens. The Islamic Iranian govt, a violent, intolerant, religious nuthouse, gets sympathy. Russia gets sympathy. The Taliban (more violent oppressive religious nut) get sympathy. The Houtis get sympathy.
Something about Jews….
Eric Newhill,
Most non-Jews in Israel would continue to get along fine in a Jewish state. Most Jews in Israel would also continue to get along fine with non-Jews. The problem lies with the hardliner Zionists who are not much different from the Hamas nutjobs. This is the present Israeli government stance pushed by the hardline coalition partners when it was first formed last year:
“The first guiding principle of the new government, published on Wednesday, declares that “the Jewish people have an exclusive and unquestionable right to all areas of the land of Israel”. It says that includes the occupied West Bank and promises to “advance and develop” settlements there.”
Barbara Ann –
Glad to see that the US is about to sanction an ultra-orthodox IDF unit. The IDF’s Netzah Yehuda Battalion has been responsible for war crimes on the West Bank. Let’s hope that Blinken does not get stymied on this by Congress and follows through on those sanctions.
Better yet would be referring them to the ICC. Although the Hague would probably get zero cooperation from Netanyahoo. The ultra-orthodox are a key component of his political base. And I suspect that a Hague investigator in the West Bank would be constantly threatened by the settlers, if not worse.
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-to-sanction-idf-unit-west-bank-human-rights-abuses-2024-4
TTG,
Maybe. I really don’t know about this new government that is supposed to be running Israel. I’m not sure why it’s relevant. Iran and various Palestinian groups have been attacking Israel for many years. After Oct 7th, it seems Israelis of many political stripes decided enough is enough and Gaza and other areas must be cleansed of the threat. Seems like a normal and reasonable human response to me. Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan had to be completely wiped out before they surrendered. After that, the Marshal plan and prosperity for the people of both countries.
Barbara Ann,
By “Abandon the racist elements of its constitution” I assume you mean abandoning the various self-serving documents that make up what the Israeli Jews call their basic law, but it does a disservice to the American reader to even use the word ‘constitution’. The Zionist state of Israel does NOT HAVE A CONSTITUTION! That is the amazing thing about the Israelis and their completely supportive and thoroughly compromised American Jews. They are afraid of a real Constitution. What they have is thimble-rigged for the Chosen. Americans don’t know this. Americans live on a separate planet and neither know or much care. But what Americans don’t yet realize is that you can have Israel or you can have a Constitution, but you can’t have both.
Barbara Ann wrote:
“This can only be stopped by the application of force”
Really?
What if the U.S. were to stop
a) subsidizing Israel financially, and
b) selling, or giving, Israel weapons?
Yes, they would complain bitterly.
“How dare you try to interfere in Israel’s internal affairs!”
But America is under no obligation, IMO, to support Israel in whatever it does.
And has no obligation to veto every resolution in the UN Security Council that Israel doesn’t like.
So America does have considerable leverage over Israel, if only it would use it.
Tidewater, Keith Harbaugh – I see a clarification of terminology is in order.
Tidewater, Col. Lang once made the same point to me about using the word “constitution” to describe Israel’s Basic Laws. The British likewise do not have a written constitution and yet refer to their collective traditions, customs and legal precedents as a “constitution”. You are quite right that most Americans (and in fact most folk in civil law jurisdictions) see a constitution as necessarily a written document. The part of the Basic Laws in question here is of course the Nation-State law, which according to PM Netanyahu means Israel is the “the national state, not of all its citizens, but only of the Jewish people“. Many Americans might be surprised to learn that Israel enacted this kind of anti-Fourteenth Amendment as recently as 2018. To his great credit the Israeli President at the time; Reuven Rivlin spoke out against the law, said it would be bad for Israel and even threatened to sign it in Arabic.
Keith Harbaugh
Yes, by “force” I should have clarified I did not mean just military force, but alternatively the application of political/economic force – a phenomenon almost entirely unknown in modern Israel.
“Extended Jews”? Hahahaha. I guess you have missed the videos of Jews spitting on Christians in Jerusalem? Churches desecrated and attacked by extremist Jews?
Are you aware that from a religious stand point Jews are forbidden from praying in Christian churches, because they are viewed as idolaters who violate the basic teaching of Judaism, outlined in the Shema. “Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one.”
It is interesting that from a religious law stand point Jews ARE allowed to pray in mosques, because Muslims, like Jews, are seen as monotheist. The traditional view point is that Christianity, as practised by modern Christians, is not monotheistic, rather they are polytheists.
Your opinion becomes an issue when you ignore every single thing out there that does not confirm your own already radical viewpoints.
Ever been to Lebanon? The Armenian community there has lived there for hundreds of years. They get along generally with their Muslim, Christian and Arab neighbours. But it was a bit different during the civil war when the Armenian community pretty much maintained a neutral standpoint in the war. The only issue they had was from the CHRISTIAN Falangists who tried to get them to take side and when they didnt attacked Armenians all over Lebanon. Killing many. Yeah, CHRISTIANS attacking Armenia Christians. It wasntn Hizb’Allah, it wasnt Amal, it wasnt the PFLP/DFLP or any Muslim groups. It was CHRISTIANS slaughtering Armenians and destroying their towns.
You probably are not aware of this, or will find some way to reject it so as to not confuse your well put together echo chamber.
Stefan,
I was in Lebanon in 1983 training the Lebanese Army to be what everyone hoped to become a mult-confessional force. Much of that effort didn’t work. When shit hit the fan, several brigades broke apart along confessional lines. I was with the primarily Christian 8th Brigade commanded by Colonel Michel Aoun in the defense of Souk el Gharb. In the days and weeks leading up to that Christian Phalangists were killing Druze villagers and Druze were killing Christian villagers. Hizb’Allah wasn’t a factor yet.
Stefan,
Dude you and Yeah Right really need to stop huffing spray paint together. You’ll enjoy the Ivy League protests that no doubt you’re involved in to some extent that much more.
Way to miss the point in your continued reflex and fevered effort to defame Christianity.
All I was saying is that Iranians and Lebanese of various stripes didn’t have an issue with Israel until post 1979 when the evil Iranian Islamic government started to assert itself in a divide and conquer + scapegoat political scam against Israel.
I am completely aware that the Lebanese civil war was everyone against everyone. That was also part of my point. People fled that environment because it was nuts; a Mad Max world. Had nothing to do with Israel.
Extremists do extreme things. Who would have guessed? Maybe that’s why they’re called “extremists”. I dunno. You’re the super educated, worldly, genius. You tell me.
Of course, I understand that you are trying to play off the idea that I am generalizing from Muslim extremists to all Muslims when there are Jewish extremists and Christian extremists who I, allegedly and in your straw man construction of me, ignore.
The problem is that Muslim extremists tend to control entire populations and governments as well as tend to constitute a larger percent of the population. It’s a religion and culture that is particularly susceptible to extremism. All it takes is some no good shits to stir up the people. That’s why you have the population of Gaza and Iran cheering the events of Oct 7th and 9/11.
0.1% of the population being extreme, is a population that, like any, has a few nuts in it. 70% (or more) of the population supporting and cheering on the murder of women and children is something else entirely.
But thanks for educating me on my own people. You are so well informed and how could I possibly be, since I disagree with just about everything about you?
Now, don’t you have run along so as not to miss the burning of some American flags or the harassment of some Jewish coeds on whatever college campus you’re desecrating this week?
“The people of Gaza were left to govern themselves since 2005.”
Umm, I think this leaves out some relevant facts. See
Gaza: An Inquest into Its Martyrdom
by Norman G. Finkelstein
https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520318335/gaza
Now, Finkelstein certainly also presents a one-sided story.
Each side has its one-sided story.
But I think Finkelstein’s case deserves consideration.
For a (free!) 42-minute video of NGF presenting his case, see
https://youtu.be/nUfWTHbCS78
Keith,
Finklestein is a known radical – some say a true antisocial psychopath – with very far out views, tells a lot of lies and distortions. Sorry, but that is what just about any recognized academic with credentials in that area will tell you – or would have. I don’t know about these days what with all of the college kids and profs screaming “Death to America. Death to Israel” in our streets and blocking bridges.
If Finkelstein is where you are getting you info, I recommend you explore other sources. It’s always good to hear from conflicting experts. Then you can make up your own mind.
And what pro Palestinian experts do you read? I would guess you have an extended collection of Edward Said, the well known Christian Palestinian who put forth a very moderate view of the conflict?
I’d be interested to know which one of his dozens of books you have read. As a classical music fan I recently picked up his book on opera. Maybe you have donated to the organisation he jointly set up with Daniel Barenboim, the well known Israel conductor and musician?
Together they set up the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra. Named after the well known German national poet Goethe whose work was inspired by the Middle East and Islam. It brings together Israelis and Palestinians who travel the world playing classical music for audiences.
Still going strong 20+ years after his death.
What, exactly pro Palestinian experts do you read? I couldnt guess because your views are on par with the settlers siting on hill tops burning houses with entire families in them.
Sorry, but that is what just about any recognized academic with credentials in that area will tell you – or would have.
You are heavily mistaken, Eric, the late Raul Hilberg is the first that comes to mind, since I respect him lot. He was not a liberal, mind you, but nevertheless supported Norman Finkelstein against heavy attacks. Since he suffered those too earlier? Norman Chomsky, who I guess from your perspective does not count, himself attacked quite frequently. Least but not least, why not add some of his other supportes like, Christopher Browning, Pierre Vidal-Naquet, and Eric Hobsbawm, Adam Shatz. I could go on. Tom Segev? None of those are nobodies.
He is a bit of a hothead, as far as I am concerned, but an absolutely meticulous scholar.
You are heavily mistaken in NF. But you are heavily, heavily trying to impress with standard talking points on this topic anyway. The subject of his thesis by now is academic mainstream, and it caused an uproar in the States too.
Leander,
“It warms every fiber of my soul—the scenes of Gaza’s smiling children as their arrogant Jewish supremacist oppressors have, finally, been humbled. The stars above in heaven are looking kindly down. Glory, glory, hallelujah. The souls of Gaza go marching on!” – Norman Finkelstein writing about Oct 7th. The nut job is practically orgasmic over murdered Jews.
Finkelstein also has written that thoroughly self-revealed Holocaust denier David Irving is “a very good historian”.
I can see why Finklestein is considered a good source by many commenting here; including a certain sour Krout.
And, before you say it, Soros is also a Jew that helped Nazis kill Jews. Psychopaths don’t care about their heritage, or even their very parents. They just want whatever satisfies their own twisted malicious desires and ambitions.
Kraut or not, it’s obviously a bad time to discuss Palestinians. The never miss an opportunity to …
Finkelstein also has written that thoroughly self-revealed Holocaust denier David Irving is “a very good historian”.
Yes, that seems the standard narrative on the right. Unfortunately, it is made up. NF is well aware that David Irving is a Hitler admirer. Incidentally, one of the most prominent ones.
I don’t agree with his discussion of Oct. 7, cannot even listen to it. On the other hand, I gave up long ago trying to understand what we, following America and Israel intent to do with the people “squatting in Judea and Samaria and Gaza”. Maybe in his next term, Trump can grant those areas to Israel and get the UN to declare the whole UNRWA a terrorist organization and then pressure the world to dissolve it?
I can see why Finklestein (sic) is considered a good source by many commenting here; including a certain sour Krout (sic).
I have troubles reading him or others on matters presently, but then I prefer to look the other way for quite some time concerning the “Palestinian squatters”. Jeremy Haber gave up in May 2021 more then two years before Oct. 7.
http://www.jeremiahhaber.com
Finkelstein could have led a comfortable life as Prof, instead of analyzing Joan Peters and Alan Dershowitz eulogies (good speeches, full of praise). …
Leander, what do you think of this book by NGF, about part of German history:
A Nation on Trial: The Goldhagen Thesis and Historical Truth https://g.co/kgs/jpSZJm6
Leander, what do you think of this book by NGF, about part of German history:
Keith, I haven’t read the Finkelstein/Birn book, but I read Goldhagen’s book and know the archive he worked in quite well. Birn knows it even better then me. I read their articles on the topic though. Among series of articles about Goldhagen’s book.
I would suggest you read Adam Shatz
https://tinyurl.com/Shatz-on-Goldhagen-Finkelstein
it contains helpful links:
… Several months before the publication of Finkelstein and Birn’s book, A Nation on Trial: The Goldhagen Thesis and Historical Truth, Finkelstein’s opponents pressured Metropolitan to cancel it. Leon Wieseltier, the literary editor of the New Republic, got on the phone with his friend Michael Naumann, the publisher of Holt and a German, to express his outrage. The Anti-Defamation League’s Abraham Foxman wrote to Finkelstein’s editor, Sara Bershtel, calling the writer’s views “beyond the pale.”
Finkelstein’s co-author took even worse flak. Goldhagen accused her of having defamed him in her Historical Journal article, then assembled a team of lawyers in Britain to demand a retraction and an apology. In Canada, the Canadian Jewish Congress is trying to have Birn removed from the government’s war crimes division (where she helps build cases against Nazi war criminals) on the grounds that, by publishing with Finkelstein, she has demonstrated insensitivity unbecoming a public servant.
The prepublication attack almost worked. István Deák, a Columbia University historian who agreed to write a preface, backed out. He did provide a blurb, as did seven other distinguished academics, including the Holocaust experts Raul Hilberg and Christopher Browning, the French Jewish intellectual Pierre Vidal-Naquet, and the eminent Marxist historian Eric Hobsbawm. (Click here to read what some of them say and here to read why they say it.) Now that the book is out, the grand irony is that Goldhagen should consider himself lucky to have Finkelstein as his adversary. Not that it isn’t a good dissection of Goldhagen’s contradictions and distortions. Finkelstein handily refutes Goldhagen’s claim that German anti-Semitism is all that’s required to explain the Holocaust. (Click here to read how he does this.) Checking Goldhagen’s assertions against his citations, Finkelstein demonstrates that the scholar’s use of secondary sources is untrustworthy. (Click here for another telling example.) And yet Finkelstein turns out to be a kind of doppelgänger of Goldhagen’s, equally biased and inflammatory.
I agree with Shatz on Finkelstein. In his argument with Alan Dershowitz I found their tit-for-tat-exchanges unbearable. And occasionally dislike his languoge. But then, I only became aware the exchange, since I was witnessing a very, very heavy anti-Finkelstein campaign. Very, very curious to watch.
*************************************
What do you think, David Shulman exaggerates?
New York Review of Books:
Violent intrusions by masked, heavily armed settlers, often together with soldiers, are by now routine. The honorific term “soldiers” in the Jordan Valley and the South Hebron Hills really refers to paramilitary units, in uniform, made up of settlers who have been armed by Itamar Ben-Gvir, the convicted criminal and Jewish supremacist whom Benjamin Netanyahu appointed minister of national security in November 2022. They are a law unto themselves.
The settlers’ mantra—“Get out or we will kill you”—has been repeated in nearly all the villages in the Jordan Valley and the South Hebron Hills. Most of our friends in the villages have heard it. Usually it is uttered in the course of attacks on Palestinian homes, sheep pens, food supplies, water tanks and wells, wind turbines, and anything else the invaders can wreck. Sometimes these settlers shoot at the villagers and kill sheep and goats. We know of at least sixteen Palestinian villages that have been evacuated over the last few months because of ceaseless settler violence backed by the army; many more are barely hanging on. International pressure has had some meaningful impact on the situation, but for the most part the settlers are winning this miniwar. They tend to be fanatical men or adolescent boys, brainwashed, apocalyptic, and messianic, who have emerged from the dark and brutal undercurrents of religious Zionism. They want to rid the West Bank of all non-Jews (and maybe some secular Jews as well) in order to hasten the arrival of the Messiah, who is scheduled to turn up as soon as this campaign of ethnic cleansing is completed. But the ideological motivation is only part of the story; we who have seen these people in action, who have met them in the field, can confirm that many of them are driven by sheer sadistic pleasure.
Israel the Way Out:
https://tinyurl.com/Israel-the-Way-Out
It’s as clear as the country that supplied the bombs for the Gaza massacre.
For some thirty years, the United States has asked the Izzies not to build settlements in Palestine, west of the Jordan River, on Palestinian land. Despite this refusal, the Izzies are pouring concrete anyway, not to mention the access roads that divide the territory, built where necessary on Palestinian orchards, olive groves and pastures. As you can imagine, these roads are reserved for the Izzies.
The Oslo “Accords” (Oslo, I guess) grant the Izzies the Jordan Valley for understandable defense reasons, but no more.
And then, the United States calls the world to witness and says, “See, we strongly advised them not to do this, and they’re doing it anyway.
This Palestinian territory becomes fragmented by untouchable Izzie enclaves.
A Palestinian state becomes impossible in Samaria-Judea, the biblical name your Izzie leader uses. That’s the point.
This is a game where the weak are as strong as the accomplice strong’s weakness allows.
Appearance is everything, but this game is deadly for many. Thank God our lives aren’t at stake in this game. Yet.
In the past week, there have been reports that Kuwait and Qatar have issued directives to the United States denying the use of their air bases and even the use of their air space to attack Iran. Further reports say that the UAE, Oman, and Saudi Arabia have also given similar instructions to the American government. If true this is huge news. I think it could become very legal and complicated given formal treaty agreements, but who knows? I think this must stem from, in part, the fury that is in their populations about the mass slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza by Jews and the West. But could it also be that these Gulf countries know that Iranian missile development has reached a new level and that the United States will not be able or willing to defend them if full-scale war breaks out? That America is seen differently?
Tidewater,
That’s a perfectly sensible policy. No country should willingly let a third country use their territory to launch an attack or invasion of a neighboring country. Inviting a third country in to help defend that country is a different story.
TTG,
Mexico is quite willing to do that, just look south for evidence.
TTG,
The first I heard of this new policy of the UAE, which supposedly restricted air attacks on Iranian proxies from their bases, was in the February 14 Politico. But I can’t help but wonder if this new caution of the various Gulf monarchies hasn’t been going on below the surface for some time, and the article itself might even stem from what the Washington Post calls ‘The Discord Leaks.’
Next Ambassador Charles W. Freeman Jr., in an interview on YouTube with Pascal Lottaz, which was picked up by Arnaud Bertrand on Twitter/X, said that while the UAE and Saudi Arabia did fulfill their treaty obligations to provide Israel and the US with thorough real-time reports from radar etc. as the attacks developed across their territory, the Americans and the Israelis were told in that critical time-frame that Saudi, UAE, and I assume Qatar and Kuwait airspace would be denied for any counter-strikes on Iran, and further, that military facilities and airbases could not be used now or in future. Surely this jolting denial would have caused some bitterness.
Ambassador Freeman’s conclusion is this remarkable turnabout has upended American Mideast policy.
As I said, this is a stunner. But I am reminded of the famous article in Harper’s Magazine (March 1975) by Miles Ignotus (the unidentified soldier?) called ‘Seizing Arab Oil,’ which was a real shocker at that post-Vietnam anti-war moment in time, and, oddly, a sort of a hint of the future, a look into the real American mind. I suspect there could be threatening noises made in the coming days (given the character of this administration). If the Arab monarchies stick to their guns, I think it is checkmate as far as any foreseeable open attack on Iran. UAE would be critical.
Tidewater
Geopolitical fortunes favor the brave and can turn on a dime. Iran’s ballsy demonstration of power (at the risk of its total destruction, let’s face it) has seemingly put some backbone into the spineless Arab world. Israel badly needs to come up with a meaningful counter demonstration of power before everything unravels. Weakness is death in geopolitics and Israel knows that better than anyone.
BA,
What are you going on about here? Arabs help shoot down Iranian ordnance. It sounds to me like the Arabs just want peace and no trouble from either side in this conflict. That position favors Israel. Israel will be left alone to crush Hamas in Gaza. Israel + the US will be left alone to crush Hezbollah if it decides to get more froggy than usual. The Saudis and Gulfies are no friends of Iran; far from it.
The US will not get involved against Hizb’Allah anymore than they did when Hizb’Allah spanked Israel in 2006.
Extremists attack all. Even Christians and Armenians in Israel. Radicals are a threat to everyone, Jewish, Christian and Muslim radicals alike.
It would seem Jewish extremists desecrated an Armenian church with racist slurs.
Jewish extremists attacking random Armenians in Jerusalem.
Radical settlers attacking Armenian Christians are linked to the Israeli government.
https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/jewish-extremists-write-racist-slurs-on-armenian-churchs-wall-in-jerusalem-12778307
https://www.azatutyun.am/a/32246421.html
https://www.asianews.it/news-en/Armenian-Patriarchate-in-settlers%E2%80%99-crosshairs,-Christians-'in-danger'-in-Jerusalem-59580.html#google_vignette
Stefan,
You are among the “no good shits” that seeks to stir up hatred against Israel. If you think you are telling me something I don’t know re; Armenians in Israel, you are mistaken. If you think you are going to cause me to hate Israel or Jews, you are even more gravely mistaken. I am not vulnerable to your brand of propaganda; which is what you’re peddling.
A few heated interactions involving a few hotheads is not the same as mass murdering, raping, indiscriminately firing rockets into populated areas, for generations nonetheless.
The conflict over real estate in the Armenian Quarter – which is what your links reference – has two sides. It seems that a sinister and greedy Armenian – who may or may not have had authority to make a deal – covertly contracted with a Jewish investor to develop around 25% of the quarter. The rest of the Armenians won’t honor the deal, now that they have learned about it, and the Jew has sent thugs to try to intimidate the Armenians. That’s what it is all about. I’ve been aware of the situation since it began. It is basic hard nosed mafia like business that can be found in any major city across the world. It’s very mild compared to most similar situations. It isn’t what you’re trying to make it out to be.
Didnt read most of the comments here. The same arguments by the same people, for years now.
I think this round is done. At least between the actual states of Israel and Iran. I would not be surprised for a rather large asymmetrical response by one of Iran’s proxies in the near future. Back to business as usual.
You mean in all those years you have not persuaded anyone to your viewpoint?
All
Another data point on the Russia factor in the Israel/Iran conflict: Alastair Crooke’s last two articles in Strategic Culture are as informative as usual, but the latest stood out for me. As well as the content it is its context that is relevant. The article carries the provocative title “Will Zionism self-destruct?” and is based on a talk Crooke is due to give on Thursday at a prestigious Moscow economics school. He seems to be on a lecture tour over there, as the last article was based on a speech he recently gave at another august institution in St. Pete (“Is a peaceful accommodation between BRICS and the West possible?”). The ‘self-destruct’ article only mentions Russia 3 times and never in the context of an adversary of Israel. But, the very fact that he was invited by the equivalent of somewhere like Standford (I’d welcome a more correct analogy) to deliver a talk on the question of Zionism’s self destruction is very interesting, at least to me.
Stanford even..
The biggest player opposing “zionism” is Iran. Iran does this to distract from substantial domestic issues and b/c they think it is the path to making the party of Ali the leader of Islam. Also, because they are fanatics.
Iran sponsors most of the anti-Israel rhetoric and activity. Iran is in trouble. 48% inflation, high unemployment and a population that is increasingly dissatisfied with the oppressive nature of the regime. The Biden admin breathed some temporary life back into the Islamic regime by lifting sanctions. Trump will put heavy sanctions back on the. That will break the regime’s back.
The other major sponsor of anti-zionism (aka terrorism) is the UNWRA. up to 10% of the UNWRA’s workers are actual HAMAS members. UNWRA allows relief money to go to HAMAS’ militant leadership instead of the Palestinian people. I suspect that under a Trump admin. all of that will be stopped.
Less UNWRA and Iran, there is no opposition to Israel and the Palestinians will have no option but to use their relief money to build a better society as opposed to assault tunnels and rockets. Israel, for its part will have to rein in its radical settlers, to the extent that the stories about their bad acts are true. Then the healing can begin. Some day, after demonstrating a positive approach, maybe the Palestinians will have their own state. Israel is not going anywhere and pretty much all of the territory they took in the various wars against them is going to stay part of Israel.