"We are going to need a bigger basket." This is attributed to one of Trump's sons. It is really quite clever. It has been theorized (here among other places) that HC laid down her challenge to Trump's people deliberately as a means to the end of solidifying her followers in a struggle to rid the world of the undesirables out there in flyoverland. What would be the equivalent of "flyoverland" in the UK or France? Others believe that in her weakened state as a pneumonia sufferer she simply told the truth that she felt. Well, pilgrim souls, IMO if this was a deliberate gambit, it was a dumb one.
The Deplorables (both the re-educable and the irredeemables) are unhappy at this dismissal of the notion of their equality in the polity called the US. The HC declaration of their moral and cultural inferiority has sunk in and will sink in more in light of the general approbation given to HC's statement by such people as Dana Milbank and the MJ crowd who assert that she was factually correct.
The independents now question her attitude toward them and any others who do not share her utopian vision. pl
Trump’s speech writers are IMO, getting the zeitgeist of flyover America correct. Hillary has given his campaign an opening to drive an anti-establishment message. Below are excerpts from a speech to the National Guard.
“Our support comes from every part of America, and every walk of life. We have the support of cops and soldiers, carpenters and welders, the young and the old, and millions of working class families who just want a better future.
These were the people Hillary Clinton so viciously demonized. These were among the countless Americans that Hillary Clinton called deplorable, irredeemable and un-American. She called these patriotic men and women every vile name in the book – she called them racist, sexist, xenophobic, and Islamaphobic.
She called them a “basket of deplorables” in both a speech and an interview. She divides people into baskets as though they were objects, not human beings.
Hillary Clinton made these comments at one of her high-dollar fundraisers in Wall Street.
She and her wealthy donors all had a good laugh. They were laughing at the very people who pave the roads she drives on, paint the buildings she speaks in, and keep the lights on in her auditorium.
Hillary Clinton is an insider, supported by powerful insiders, attacking Americans who have no political power.
Hillary Clinton spoke with hatred and derision for the people who make this country run.
She spoke with contempt for the people who thanklessly follow the rules, pay their taxes, and scratch out a living for their families.
While Hillary Clinton lives a sequestered life behind gates and walls and guards, she mocks and demeans hardworking Americans who only want their own families to enjoy a fraction of the security enjoyed by our politicians.
After months of hiding from the press, Hillary Clinton has revealed her true thoughts.
She revealed herself to be a person who looks down on the proud citizens of our country as subjects for her to rule over.
Her comments displayed the same sense of arrogance and entitlement that led her to violate federal law as Secretary of State, hide and delete her emails, put classified information in the reach of our enemies, lie to Congress, and sell government favors and access through her Foundation.”
The problem with her utopian vision is that’s it’s pretty damned distopian for everyone else. More social, economic, and cultural decline, spiced with yet more wars of choice.
I truly hope that you and you’re fellow Americans end this dangerous fanatic’s political career during the forthcoming presidential election.
“What would be the equivalent of “flyoverland” in the UK or France?”
As far as the UK is concerned, anywhere outside London (and only specific parts of London, at that).
Trump’s speech writers are IMO, getting the zeitgeist of flyover America correct.
She’s only saying what the left really thinks. People like Tim Wise have openly stated they’re just waiting for all those horrid white conservatives to die out. The bi-partisan junta is outraged these Deplorables aren’t willing to shuffle off this mortal coil without a fight.
Matt Drudge has been reading SST. He now puts up the photo of the Lady ‘X’ helping Hillary and the possible neurological check.
Likewise, the British Daily Mail newspaper is catching up–
Matt Drudge may make a lot of money, but SST provides a public service.
“Flyover-land”in England and Wales equals anywhere outside of Quislington and Hampstead in London and the parts of the cities that do not have a Russell Group university within its environs
FFS who on earth can speak as clearly as this if they are suffering from “pneumonia”? She must take you Americans as a bunch of idiots http://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/09/13/hillary-clinton-beeper-pneumonia-didnt-think-it-would-be-a-big-deal-sot-cooper-ac360.cnn
A “Deplorable Lives Matter” sign, smiling Trump supporters weaqring Deplorables t-shirts and more great visuals here…
‘Deplorable’ and proud: Some Trump supporters embrace the label http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/09/12/deplorable-and-proud-some-trump-supporters-embrace-label/90290760/
She might have said “Les Miserables”.
The comment exemplifies the attitude of the educated, degreed coastal elites who run the Democratic Party, well described in a recent book: “Listen Liberal”.
I don’t intend to shill for the book and hope I’m not transgressing by posting the link.
Maybe her swoon on Sunday was caused by a case of the vapors brought on by the sight of deplorables…
I see there is room for you in the basket. You are offended and disrespected and gosh darn your life matters too. You must be sucking up some kind of welfare or entitlement: social security,government pension,state pension?
What would be the equivalent of “flyoverland” in the UK…?
I would have said Deptford but even that’s in the process of re-education. The only holdout that I can think of at the moment is Essex although it is quite pleasant near the border with Suffolk.
Jack–Gosh, maybe she just thought that David Duke and his ilk and the people that consider what he says to be “OK” and “not politically correct” are deplorable. Maybe HC actually thinks that saying that all Muslims need to be individually vetted even if they are American citizens is a deplorable statement under the US Constitution. Maybe she thinks is it “deplorable” that 60% of Trump followers say that Obama is a Muslim–which statement is flat-out inaccurate. Maybe she actually believes that Hawaii is part of the US and that Obama was born there as both he and his birth certificate say.
Deplorable? Yes. And, by-the-way, it doesn’t require being a birther or being anti-Muslim or pro-David Duke to “follow the rules, pay their taxes, and scratch out a living for their families.” In fact, those things which we ALL should deplore—totally get in the way of our economy and our Constitution. She’s a Methodist for heaven’s sake…why would a Christian NOT deplore those elements in our society?
I agree that putting people into baskets isn’t a great idea…however, HC was basing this on polls where these folks self-identified by answering questions. She isn’t making it up…just foolishly and very uncharitably pointing their answers out. It is NOT a laughing matter.
No, it is not a laughing matter that one part of the population is deliberately alienating another part. pl
Dr K Is your remark about someone’s place in the basket directed at me? If not, then who? if you do not respond to my question I will ban you. pl
The British equivalent to flyover country are the English provinces – the poor agricultural South West (my home) and the rust belt Midlands and North. London is where our coastal elites concentrate, and in some of the affluent suburbs surrounding it. There are outposts of metropolitan values in some major cities. Scotland and Northern Ireland have different voting patterns.
Our equivalent to your presidential election is of course Brexit, where the country divided in pretty much the same way as it looks as though yours will.
I think there could be a direct parallel between Clinton’s fatal “Deplorables” statement and a particular event late in our referendum campaign. A week before voting a young pro-Remain Labour woman MP was gunned down and killed in the street by a pro-Brexit neo-nazi nutcase. It became wall-to-wall news on the MSM. There was virtually no coverage of the election and the campaigns shut down as a mark of respect. The opinion polls started to show a swing to Remain.
But it didn’t stop after two days. The massive coverage of the murder continued to push out almost all the coverage of the election campaign day after day. And insinuations started to enter the coverage. Extremely unpleasant smears were made – sometimes quite openly – that ALL supporters of Brexit were not only the usual things – stupid, racist etc – but were in someway responsible for the murder. Were the equivalents of neo-nazi murderers. I think that it was at this moment, in the anger and revulsion of most ordinary, decent people to such a dishonest smear, used in such an openly cynical way, that in the last couple of days the campaign swung for Brexit.
Hubris followed by Nemesis.
(If Trump does win, prepare yourselves for months of hysteria, insult, and emotional incontinence from the losers)
How about Cornwall?
Yes, don’t we usually say “the regions”?
Comments directed to Jack.
Thank you for mentioning David Duke. More than a decade ago, on this forum, I stated my opinion that he was a symptom of a wide discontent in the United States with domestic political situation.
At that time, his candidacy was crushed by collusion between Democrats and Republicans. They swept the problem under the rug, but it has come back to the surface again.
They might be able to smother Trump’s election chances as well but I think some of the issues that David Duke had raised have now become more pressing concerns for more people in the United States.
Which leads me to believe that by crushing Trump, they make the divisions in the United States deeper and deeper and their resolution costlier and costlier overtime.
“Deplore this!” comes to mind.
So you think that collection of an earned retirement, pension or Social Security should buy silence? pl
Aren’t you the guy teaching at UW Madison, or are you a new Dr. K? Pensions are earned from service. Whether they are paid out, as the folks in Detroit, who had theirs cut by 5% or so due the mismanagement, is debatable. I’m sure the folks in Illinois are wondering about theirs. Maybe someone should make room for them in the “basket”, it’s not like Hilary and company plan on cutting the refugee budget.
What would be the equivalent of “flyoverland” in the UK or France?
In the UK saying “Bradford”, “Hull” or just “The North” would convey more or less the same meaning, although I wouldn’t know how to call all these many semi-rural towns and villages that are just as dead and rough located in between crap urban areas.
In France they call “France périphérique” (peripheral France) the working class people not lucky enough to even live in a suburban ghetto.
These are the very people the Left used to praise as their hope and heroes. But as soon as they lost their job, they instantly became dumb racist sexist losers.
need guidance on usage [oou-saaaj]. is it to be
deploreurs/deploreuses or deploristes versus deplorands
deplorers versus deplorees ????
I have tried to follow this campaign as little as possible with the exception of SST. Yesterday I came across a long essay by Bill Moyers which seemed to me to trace the history and reflect on state and fate of our nation. This is the link: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/09/bill-mowers-we-the-plutocrats-s-we-the-people-saving-the-sou-l-of-democracy.html
The title is :” We, the Plutocrats vs. We, the People: Saving the Soul of Democracy.”
‘Stronger Together’…deplorables need not apply!
It just shows the total vacuity of Hillary’s sloganeering.
The problem with utopias are perfectionists.
Just hit September and this roller coaster election has no signs of slowing down. Any word on cancelled debates yet?
I concur entirely. Many people on the left, especially, seem to be of the impression that, by pretending that problems don’t exist, they can be safely ignored. Instead, it will ensure that it festers and becomes worse.
How this strata of the dissatisfied might shape politics, however, remains unclear. As much as David Duke was a symptom of the illness, rather than the cause, he and his fringe views, even without getting into moral judgment, could not draw enough support. Trump (and his Democratic counterpart, Sanders) hold much more potential for mainstream appeal, but are again fundamentally flawed candidates who have had trouble bridging the divisions among the discontented (that the candidates themselves lack the political finesse and many of their supporters are not particularly tactful does not help them expand coalitions.)
I tend to think that, while discontented, there are many voters who are still sitting on the fence: they recognize the flaws of the alternatives enough that they are not ready to throw their support behind them–yet. Hardly an endorsement for the status quo, but a recognition that the cure does not seem better than the disease, at least for now. There are two possible courses of change, or some combination of the two: the establishment recognizes the problem and reforms, at least enough to dispel enough of the discontent, or a more capable candidate emerges to lead the discontented to a political change. (The combination of the two would be that the current path continues, or even worsens, so that the eventual champion of the political change will not be quite so competent or appealing–but still better than the worsening rot.)
Did you read Trump’s speech and notice how he’s presenting his side of the “deplorables”? Do you see his argument of “insider” vs those with no political power?
Look at what he said in Asheville, NC yesterday.
“The Democratic Party has run the inner cities for fifty, sixty, seventy years and more.
4 in 10 African-American children live in poverty, including 45% of those under the age of six.
2,900 people have been shot in Chicago since the beginning of the year.
For those suffering and hurting, I say: give Donald J. Trump a chance. I will fix it. What do you have to lose?”
This is all about persuading a few “swing” voters and reinforcing the “deplorables” to band as a tribe and show the insider Wall St fat cats on Nov 8th. He’s not trying to persuade you or the coastal and urban elites. He knows he’ll not win you over. Exactly as Hillary did when she made the distinction of the deplorables basket which was to create identity for her team by vilifying the other team. This election is about those on the fence and which way they break and which team is more motivated. IMO, Trump is using the “deplorables” opening that Hillary gave him to create a feeling among his supporters of “let’s give a big FU to the condescending insider elites”. He is making the best of the hand dealt to him. He doesn’t have the big money or the Republican party establishment or the MSM in his corner.
This was really stupid on her part. Insult your opponent or other politicians and you can get away with it. What do you ever get out of insulting voters? If there is one thing Hillary has demonstrated over and over it is that she is a terrible campaigner. To be fair, she is working with poor material, but she is almost guaranteed to do something to ruin her own campaign.
That said, at one level this is awfully funny as the right has long gone out of its way to alienate and make fun of the left. Is it possible to read any post in a blog on the right w/o seeing the word libtard? If Trump, or any conservative, says harsh things about a liberal or a group that votes for Dems, they are just telling it like it is. This is just another demonstration of how much the “base” of one party detests the “base” of the other party. Let’s not pretend this is something new. (If there really are Trump supporters out wearing “Deplorables” T-shirts, more power to them. That is the right way to respond to something like this, rather than get all weak kneed about being called names.)
“I see there is room for you in the basket.”
There is room for anyone who considers deviating from the Borganism’s pure vision of Utopia, and, if necessary. the Public Safety Commissary will place them in the dustbin of history with the already scheduled for depositing Irredeemable Deplorables.
To Serve Man!
Babak…very good point. There are very serious issues we, as Americans, can no longer sweep under the rug or use euphemisms to discount. That is one of the things this election is doing…and it is nasty and messy indeed. I hope that it will be good for us but without a really good press corps it’s a crap shoot.
TC…a plague on both their houses!
I’m happy to make the basket even bigger.
My only disagreement, is that I truly believe she (like the queens of the ancient regime) holds may of her followers in similar low esteem (those that are not in the 0.001%).
Whoever is president needs to be president of 100% of Americans.
Humans spin all sorts of thoughts, but we all learn not to voice them. However, some neurological deficiencies can cause loss of judgement.
Secret service knew what they needed to do, and she was propped up stiff against the metal barrier before she collapsed.
PS. I think jumping off the fence, in either direction (for the “establishment” or the “change”) requires faith, a lot of it. What is sad is that neither side inspires much faith. Instead, all we get is being berated for lack of sufficient faith, from both sides.
I can’t agree more and that is what’ worries me, I also have observed that the national, social, political and economical divide is rapidly getting much wider and deeper to the point that both sides can’t and won’t tolerate each other.
As an example yesterday at lunch, I was mocked by a stranger, for watching HRC’ collapsing video on my smart phone, he was seating next table, in sarcastic way he asked how could I watch garbage like this.
deplorable!!!! could be the new awesome!!!!?????
So long as elites use immigration to displace, dismember, and demote the historic American nation, which did not include the global south, Duke’s views will grow in their attractiveness. At the end of the day, the constitution requires some pre-political requisites in order to continue constituting a functional Republic. *And that does not include the economy or the worship of it as the be all and end all of the political.*
Clinton’s brand of mainline Christianity imbues her politics with a messianic, puritanical liberalism. It’s a a cancer.
As for Obama the “gay transgender mulatto Muslim”, that is what we call constructionism (c.f. the deconstructionism of the left). It doesn’t matter whether its technically “true” or not. He embodies in a symbolic fashion the promotion of all those elements flyover country accurately views as fundamentally opposed to their interests and way of life. His class viscerally hate that those who cling to ”guns and religion’ exist. There is no room for them in the glorious new order of men in girl’s changing rooms, New Somalia (Minnesota), carefully cultivated balkanization, the religion of “human rights”, obligatory genuflection to gay pride, and the general deconstruction of every historical norm of the West.
Given that Muslims as a group within the US pose a much larger threat proportionally than any other, it makes sense to devote extra attention to them. Though Trump never suggested individually hauling Muslims over the coals. The left has never cared about the sacred Constitution when it got in the way of their initiatives anyway, and arguably between the Civil War and Truman any practical potential for it to moderate what the elites really wanted to do was voided.
The left believe only they have the right to impose their values. Now they are facing a coalition which isn’t just interested in defending imaginary victories like ‘less taxes for oligarchs’ but assertively redirecting America back toward a properly right wing society. This is a full scale political war, because there really is an ‘other’ whose worldview is mutually exclusive to ours. As Schumpeter noted, ‘ultimate values are beyond the range of logic to reconcile’.
To enhance everyone ability to categorize the US population, these ones are NOT deplorables:
Flyoverland in France would be located in Saint Germain des Près center of the intellectual left, they earned the nickname of Germanopratins.
Typical star of the tribe are Bernard Henry Levy (warmonger supremo), Alain Mink (author of two stupid books: The finlandisation of Europe and the Happy globalization), Jacques Attali (guru inspired by Silicon Valley) and many more caciques of the Socialist Party. It was also called Gauche caviar in the heydays of Jack Lang and Strauss Kahn.
Location to fly to would be Avignon for the festival, Saint Paul de Vence, Marrakech in Marocco, secondary residence in the Luberon.
It’s a very small step for the intellectual elites to go from labelling their opponents as incorrigible deviants to the killing fields of Cambodia.
The intellectual justification is always the same: breaking eggs to make an omelette.
Lemur et al
Cradle Catholics like me typically do not know much about the different Protestant sects. Tell me what there may be in Hillary’s brand of Methodism that may create what she is. pl
Locations to fly to from London to prove you still have a finger on the pulse of provincial life are the Edinburgh Festival for Scotland, the Hay on Wye literary festival for Wales, and for the English provinces the Glastonbury Festival.
There you will only meet all the people you know in London. They’re the only people worth talking to.
I was raised Presbyterian; my better half was raised Roman Catholic. I believe the Protestant sects are not easy to differentiate, and, within each, there are numerous branches. My Presbyterian Church in the north was very liberal in the 60s. I recall a family whose breadwinner had been transferred from the south and joined the congregation. The woman was appalled that she had to sit in a church with Negroes (the polite term of the day). The “Negroes” were three families of various shades, all of whom had been in the village for more than 100 years. They bore surnames like Jones and a Dutch name I will not give here.
Many of my friends and classmates were and are Methodists as well as several American friends here in Greece. If I recall correctly, Bill Moyers, cited earlier in this thread, is an ordained minister. I believe they share with RC and Episcopalians the clerical position of Bishop. We Presbyterians are governed by Elders, as the Greek root of the word suggests. I am an ordained Elder but do not practice. To my knowledge, there is no official or unofficial category of “lapsed” in this religion as there is for Roman Catholics.
As you probably know, we live in Greece and have done for 40 years. We have attended many many rites here. Many Greeks of our acquaintance are baptized, married, and have their children baptized in our experience, although they do not practice the religion regularly.
I also baptized an Armenian girl since her mother was in dire straits to get this done, and the Armenian Church required a “male.” We have undertaken this responsibility although it largely involves providing economic support not spiritual support. The young woman does not attend church regularly. My better half is godmother to several nieces and nephews in the US and takes her role very seriously.
Apologies for this long reply and my limited perspectives. As you know, the subject is vast and goes back beyond the schism.
“and show the insider Wall St fat cats on Nov 8th”
Trump’s tax plan gives those fat cats and wealthy coastal elites a giant tax cut.
Help me out–if you dare to–and explain why the coastal and fat financial elites would gain the most in Trump’s tax plan.
Side note: Trump is raising big money from the usual GOP plutocrats too. Why? I thought one of his selling points is he was beholden to nobody.
As a former Sanders supporter, I don’t agree with the generalizations about “the left” that have appeared in this thread. I found Hilary Clinton’s characterization of Trump supporters to be ugly as well as tactically stupid. I’m not alone. See this post from a pro-Sanders Daily Kos-breakaway site.
In reply to JohnsonR 13 September 2016 at 11:17 AM
Anywhere north of Watford. All of Sarf London and Essex.
In reply to Babak Makkinejad 13 September 2016 at 01:08 PM
Cornwall and Devon are now the stomping grounds of wealthy retirees and even wealthier second home owners.
Well she at least picked the right logo – the arrow over the hospital sign. Prescient in pointing out just where she’s heading.
Look at some of the wonders around here.
I’m starting to wonder if Stephanie, Edward Amane, Laura, and Nancy K are all the same person .
Colonel I know these folks they don’t believe you are entitled to your SS/ pension earnings. After they have barrowed and spend the SS found, they believe you are being privileged to have access to what ever by law they have to give back.
How hard is it to dig up deplorable fantasies about Mr. Trump and his moment in history; a moment supposed by some to be all about eradicating social justice warriors, cultural marxism, feminism, etc.? Do not such moments often call forth the hardest men?
By contrast, the equivalent on the left is easily found, where?
The war of all against all seems to be about one utopianism vs the other utopianism. There’s nothing in this thread that casts the opponents in the gray light of modernity.
The communists of yore had the message discipline to disarm the kulaks before declaring them unpeopled.
Nowadays well. Things will go differently.
Provinces. Works also for France beyond Paris.
Only an extrimly arrogant person who thinks she is intellectually superior to everybody else calls half of her opponents deplorables.
Like most posters on SST, I loathe the Clintons and have since Bill first appeared on the national stage. They represent the financial sector’s takeover of the Democratic Party. The Dems should have fought globalization, deindustrialization, and outsourcing, but with the prodding and $$$ of the Michael Steinhardts of this world, they became tools of Goldman Sachs, et al, in destroying the productive economy of the US (and, along with it, the lives of millions of people and their offspring).
However, I think it’s very naive to think of Trump as a positive alternative. I live in New Jersey, and have spend the last 7 years watching Trump’s good pal and alter id, the mobbed-up Chris Christie, drive the state further into the ground, mostly via massive, taxpayer-funded handouts to Wall Street plutocrats and wealthy “builders,” like Trump). (I hope SST readers are aware that Chris’s brother Todd made tens of millions through Goldman Sachs and was charged with cheating his clients, though he seems to have bought his way out of the charge.)
I find it ironic that some people think that Trump, who has been mobbed-up going back decades to his close friendship with Roy Cohn, is a friend of working/middle-class Americans, since he’s a plutocrat himself who has proudly boasted of his ability to buy up politicians. Take a look at his campaign apparatus now: his chief finance guy comes from Goldman; hedge-funder Robert Mercer and daughter (along with former Goldmanite Steve Bannon) are squarely in Trump’s corner). I sure don’t agree with Trump that Americans make too much, and I sure don’t agree with Christie that a $15/hour minimum wage is “too radical.”
Re Trump’s foreign policy: Aside from the “let’s steal Iraq’s oil” statement that he’s repeated several times (so, one assumes, he may actually believe it), how about his indications that he wants to slam Iran? (I guess that’s Adelson and/or son-in-law Jared Kushner talking.) Why, if he truly doesn’t want further US military interventions, is he so intent on a massive increase in US military spending? Finally, why the heck did James Woolsey, the neocon of all neocons and Iraq war hawk, just sign on as his advisor?
We are indeed in interesting times, unfortunately for us. But voting for Trump won’t help.
Typical intellectual, socially left leaning French socialists, who they believe, socialism is good, but as long as is not applied on them. I know this kind very well, grow up with few.
Exactly Cafe Deux Magots type
“Deplorable” affair is bad enuff. You can pick on fellow politicos, even the press, and the etrangere Muslims and illegal immigrants, but thou shall not pick on “civilians.” The voters and citizens are out of bounds.
But that in and of itself would have probably blown over. Scott Adams (Dilbert cartoonist) makes a lot of sense when he calls it a “false because.” On Hillary’s third 9.11 (the second one was BenGhazi), a civilian, and not the the press, captured her in a video completely limp being bundled into a van. On the day Americans associate with apocalyptic vulnerability, a putative C in Chief is shown to have been completely out of it. That’s an association deep in the reptile brain, beyond the rational mind.
We may rationalize that anybody can have a bad day and get sick and not want to rule her out just b/c of that. But then, we have another reason, she called citizens ‘deplorable,” and that is a good enough reason to abandon her.
As for me, i’ve always voted progressive, voted for Obama twice, and even Kerry. I plan to vote dem in the statewide elections, except for Rep. Walter Jones (R) who is anti-war. But I will not vote for Hillary. I will vote for Trump if only because he has said we can get along with Putin. I’ve tried to blot out what the NeoCons have done to us and to the world, but the pictures of headless Syrian bodies with their heads in a separate pile is just too much. Sincerely regret my vote for Obama and Kerry. Dubya should have never invaded Iraq, but don’t know if he would have armed al Qaeda like Kerry-Clinton-Obama. McCain probably would have.
Have been defending Obama against the accusation that he left Iraq creating a vacuum. But w/o a SOFA, there would have been a war w/ American troops and the Shia militias. But that’s not what led to ISIS. His allowing Clinton and Petraeus the latitude to overthrow the secular multiconfessional, albeit authoritarian, Syrian government is what led to ISIS. Raqqa came before Mosul
It is a smaller step for them to climb up the scaffold.
What kind of democracy are we supposed to believe that we live in?
I live in Central New York and I just took an automated poll. Normally, I do not bother with just things, but in the very, very slim hope that my responses could help Gary Johnson and / or Jill Stein get into the absurd debates that the nation will be subject to shortly, I responded.
The questions were reasonable and allowed for the choice of a third party until the question at which I hung up.
“If the general election were held tomorrow, who would I vote for. Option # 1 was Trump, option #2 was Clinton and option #3 was undecided. No further choices were offered.
For the record, I supported Bernie Sanders with more donations during his run for the nomination than I have every given to any candidate. In the end, I feel that his support for Clinton, made a mockery of my donations (realizing full well that he did say he would support the eventual nominee). Nevertheless, I feel totally ripped off.
But back to the poll. As far as I can see such polls make it totally clear that this is not a democracy.
I still have not decided if I will vote for Jill Stein (as I have before) or for Gary Johnson. I will probably vote for whichever one of them is polling highest on election eve. Just to get the biggest (if still minuscule) bang for my vote.
In any case, I am sixty-eight and no matter how many more elections I live through, I will probably not bother to vote again.
So, if you are inclined to open another topic, might we make it one about just what kind of democracy this is?
Methodist tradition includes perfection of the person as a goal if not entirely achievable. This is the branch in which the Seventh Day Adventists took root. In contrast to the Lutheran(RC without the pope some might say), the Epispocals (the church of Henry the 8th, US edition) and the Calvinists (sinners all are we but god before the foundations of the world were laid singled out some anyway for his own reasons). With apologies to all from this child of Presbyterian Sunday school.
Your comment reminds me of an observation made during a corporate diversity training class by a colleague of African descent, in context of the discussions about the experience of Irish, Italian, and others who came to this land: I never knew there were so many different kinds of white people.
Not sure why you’re so sure what the political impact of Clinton’s “basket of deplorables.” It may be, as I suggested in another thread, that she just said out loud what a lot of people, including in “flyoverland,” were already thinking.
But as you note, it certainly got the press’s attention and now they’re talking openly about Trump’s bigoted campaign. Thus we had the big story on MJ about how Pence refused to refer to David Duke as “deplorable” on CNN. IMO, any day the press is talking about a bigoted Trump campaign is a good day for the Clinton campaign. If I thought the Clinton campaign had a clue about manipulating the press, I’d say she said it was all done with a purpose.
I am just soliciting opinions. Don’t take my protestations of ignorance literally. pl
Define “modernity.” pl
“Deplorable” is so lame that the Trumpmeister ought to hire a voice actor to mimic Daffy Duck’s cri de coeur: “Dethpicable!”
We will see the effect in the polls one way or another. pl
I had a life after I left the government. I don’t need anyone’s or anything’s assistance to live. pl
When Jerry Brown was running for governor of CA, he always talked about being older, the governor’s mansion being his last stop, and thus not being beholden to anybody. I always thought that was a curious approach to getting elected, as it sounded to me as if he was admitting to being a reformed corrupt politician.
Trump is older, wealthy, and not used to taking crap from politicians. That’s about the only combination that can possibly exist at this point to change things. HRC has too many strings that can be tugged on to influence her. Frankly, I think dirt on here with regard to the emails, CGI corruption, and her health are national security risks. She may not have the emails, but the persons on the other end do.
Hillary Clinton has just giving voice to the illness that has spread across the Western World. The symptoms are the same; loss of jobs, alienation, exploitation and privatization. Like the Greeks, we can try to keep on living as best as we can, bending with the wind and protesting. But, if the endless wars, hatemongering, immigration and austerity continue unabated, the West will break apart into its tribal components. The incorrigibles in middle American are just one group. It is human nature to scapegoat. But, instead, follow the money. Who is getting rich at everyone else’s expense? How to end the scams and jail white-collar criminals? How to stop the Wars?
The Black family survived slavery, Jim Crow and neglect but it hasn’t survived the welfare state the liberals brought into being with LBJ. “It takes a village” was Hilary riff on the African proverb. The results are far different than when the aspiration for the community was to raise children in traditional Christian families.
You sound just like my friends in Florida who voted their conscience and cast their ballots for Nader. They cried for days when W won the election.
No one trusts the media.
No one cares about David DUke.
Let’s talk about Pepe the Frog while ignoring Hillary’s seizure fits.
A winning media strategy.
I was just pointing how Trump is taking advantage of the “deplorables” comment to persuade swing voters and get his supporters all fired up. His speech is a good example of that.
Hillary has raised over a billion dollars. He naturally has to be competitive with sufficient funds. There’s got to be a reason why the majority of financial elites of both parties support Hillary. After all the financialization of our economy moved at warp speed during Bill Clinton’s presidency with the support of elites in both parties in Congress. You’re gonna deny who repealed Glass-Steagall and signed NAFTA as well as granting China MFN?
IMO, a president only has major sway over foreign policy, both trade and military affairs. On domestic matters ultimately Congress determines what policies are enacted. It is for this reason why I believe Hillary poses an existential threat to the US. She has a track record of warmongering. While with Trump we know not now how he will act if he is elected, but there is at least a probability that he’ll be less interventionist as he has claimed during this campaign. He could have easily taken the path of the other GOP candidates by being more hawkish on foreign military engagements.
I love your two step around here. 1) Post progressive partisan nonsense until you get called on it by the Colonel and then 2) “I’m tired of both choices”.
L O L
For everyone following at home, EA lives in Monmouth County, where he is surrounded by a whopping 7% blacks and something in the neck of 84% white or asian demographics. It has a median income of 76K for a family.
He wants you to be surrounded by minorities while he continues to live in his turbo white abode. Sad! : /
I believe it was Kerensky that said that during the Lenin led Bolshevik purges of 1917 the difference between right wing violence & left wing violence was the difference between dog sh-t & cat sh-t … As a centrist self identified FDR Democrat I am finding no solace with Trump . But you may be right Tyler we may be limping to the 2nd American Civil War – We shall see.
It’s been happening for a long time, long before this election.
In this election however, it’s gone from “swiftboating”, to mainstreaming of CT.
Best US Election ever.
Pol Pot was not an “intellectual”, and intellectuals were the target of his genocide.
Stalin, ditto, Hitler, ditto, Mao, ditto.
Don’t know of any historic genocides lead by intellectuals, other than the Irish Famine.
There’s so much dog whistling going on, the poor things are whimpering under bed.
Fine for the Lower East Side, but they shouldn’t be imposing their world view on others while sneering down at them.
Methodists used to be teetotal. I think they dropped that in the 60s, though- around the same time that Roman Catholics dropped the Latin mass and eating fish on Fridays.
Hillary Clinton had never lived in a village – African or otherwise.
I do not understand why so many foreigners are enamored of village; life there was short, brutish, and miserable.
If you don’t believe me, ask anyone who has ever lived in an Indian village for any length of time.
Muslims take a very very dim view on the LGBT agenda. Trump could have attracted them by stating his opposition to that agenda.
Bernie is clearly uncomfortable with identity politics. But he’s pissing against the wind in the current political climate, as witnessed by the embarrassing incident with the BLM protest at his rally in Seattle.
I saw this in the Bush II elections; many people who voted for him were doing rather poorly economically and certainly were not among the cats, much less the Fat Cats. Yet he attracted them.
Sure, with its sistership Cafe de Flore, even more gay friendly.
Now we have Borgist from the rigth too, specially the leading Parti Republicain contender for next year President-Monarch election (according to polls) Alain Juppé self-exiled in Canada and uSA after being condemned for providing and covering fake jobs paid by taxpayers.
Coming back as a virgin after endorsing Borgs agenda and being financed by Wall Street.
Well, look what you have done with that: ”she just said out loud what a lot of people, including in “flyoverland,” were already thinking”
and with minor changes it morph in:
”He (D.Trump) just said out loud what a lot of people, over the land were already thinking.”
Are you not a tiny bit bigoted ?
In the end the only thing that will matter will be the numbers state by state. The big worry is that the country may be ungovernable after the election. pl
Since Bill Clinton’s second term, “the country” has been in many regard’s “ungovernable”, unless the Party that control’s the Presidency, also control’s the House and the Senate.
The big question is, will after this election, will “ungovernable” spread outside the House, Senate and States, to the streets?
Unlike you, I haven’t voted for the presidential candidates from the duopoly for over two decades. But I’m with your logic for this election and breaking with my tradition to seriously consider voting for Trump. I’m willing to take the chance that he’ll reign in our military interventions in places we have no national interests and may cooperate with Putin to usher more regional stability. Hillary’s track record of warmongering and poor judgment is far too dangerous in my mind.
We should be under no illusions in this Citizens United era. A president has limited influence and ability to act on domestic matters. The best that we can hope for is we elect a president who does not intervene in places we have no national interest. And most importantly a president who does not engage in conflict with nuclear powers that can destroy us.
IMO, the only way we get root & branch reform is after a collapse or civil war or revolution. Tocqueville was right. “The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.”
The black family is slowly disintegrating with 70% of kids growing up in single parent homes. The liberal SJWs will never accept their role in this fiasco.
What is sad is you doxxing people. Lame.
Yes. What Hillary said was way more disgusting than saying “the Black family” was better off under slavery, Jim Crow and neglect.
It read like a mixture of irony and sarcasm to me, too. If that is how you read it. Maybe since the high expectations feel vaguely like a déjà vu of earlier hope projections turned upside down: “gay transgender mulatto Muslim”
What I seriously doubt though, is that we still can talk about fringes (basket cases) it has arrived at the center. Over here too.
Mercutio’s three curses ending thus:
“They have made worms’ meat of me. I have it,
And soundly too. Your houses!”
One branch of my family was ‘Methody’, and claimed that it was embraced originally by some British underclass ancestors back in (Darbyshire) England in the mid-1700s. Two hundred years on, my father and a family friend used to amuse me — and scandalize my Catholic mother — by an off-key rendition of an old ‘Methody’ hymn: ‘We Are Sinking Deep In Sin’. My father seemed to relish the notion of sinking deep into sin, abetted by one of his famous Manhattans.
There is a moralistic, puritanical streak to ‘Methodism’ and I have often thought that Hillary was probably shaped by a Methodist upbringing. People are never, ever good enough (indeed, may even be viewed as ‘deplorable’) and consequently one must endeavor to Improve Oneself, and avoid sinking into the depths of degradation and degenerate conduct.
One ‘improves’ by becoming literate, educated, and engaging in a congregation. Also, by Doing Good Works.
I am not the slightest bit surprised at the Social Warrior aspect of Hillary, but I do often wish she had a few more Manhattans, and a better insight about how Methodists can be overly judgmental.
Methodism seems to have originated in the mid-1700s; and is distinctively British (stemming from the works of John Wesley). Methodism did not follow the hierarchical structures of the Roman Catholics or Episcopalians; it was taken up by the poorer classes, as far as I am aware. Many of those people, including some of my ancestors, immigrated throughout the British Empire.
Winston Graham’s novels about Cornwall (the Poldark series) give a vibrant sense of how the poorer members of society (Cornish miners) found direction, sobriety, and discipline via their ‘Methody’ teachings within small congregations.
IMVHO, this election could use a few more Manhattans, and fewer sermons.
Perhaps that just makes me a sinner.
Deplorable, but there you have it.
The right wing in this country by and large just wants to be left alone. The left wing isn’t going to stop until tranny bathrooms are in every Church at gun point.
Being ready for a fight isn’t the same as looking for one.
I see Pinochet giving his enemies helicopter rides the equivalent of dealing with wasps before they form a nest.
Good article. Thanks.
I’m a little late with this..not to offend anyone by my confusion…what am I missing? Aren’t village and flyoverland geographic/sociology ‘terra firma’ location terms/designations for rural? Put another way, if Hillary Clinton’s villages are not located in flyoverlands where are they located?
My estimate at this date is that she will win the presidential with Timmy Kaine in tow and standing by. I also estimate that the GOP will hold both houses with reduced majorities. Their priority will be to defeat her program. She will then try to rule by decree (EA) as BHO did in his second term with several defeats in the federal courts. The stage will then be set for increasing unrest. NB the statement by the governor of Kentucky yesterday. pl
Not that anyone cares, that is where I was raised (as in went to grammar school and high school). I have lived in NYC for the last 30 years.
If you’ll notice, I used “” around the word, “flyoverland.” That’s because “flyoverland” is the exact term used by Col Lang in his post. Apology not necessary.
We are definitely not the same person. It is just an example of great minds thinking alike.
Agreed. And not to excuse it but Tyler has a huuuge man-crush on Trump and his panties get all in a bunch whenever anyone suggests Trump ain’t all that.
“and most of them didn’t bother.” This implies that some DID bother. Earlier you stated that the claim of the existence of Black families in slavery was false. Which is it? You can’t have it both ways. pl
In my usage “flyover America” (FA) includes everything outside the major metro areas. IMO HC has little support in FA except in ethnic enclaves. pl
I am not a fan of Mrs Clinton, but would like to say a word in defense of village life and the nostalgia felt for it by many of her ilk. I have some familiarity with the village my father grew up in – it was a North American village, in Nova Scotia – I spent a couple of weeks there every summer for a number of years in my childhood, and went there as recently as 2008, when my father and I visited my cousin, still living in the home my father grew up in. Life there was not short, generally speaking – my ancestors in that area generally lived into their 80s (their brothers and sisters who died from childhood diseases did not become anyone’s ancestors, of course), and my father, in his 90s and on his last visit there at the time, met an old schoolmate of his who had been in the village all her life. Nor was life there particularly brutish or miserable – I would much rather live there than in many a contemporary disorganized urban area.
People knew you, and your family, and had expectations of you (which could be good or bad, of course) – privacy was scarce and you knew there was stuff you couldn’t get away with. Mutual help took place. Many of your neighbors were also your relatives, in one way or another. The schoolhouse, with two rooms and eleven grades, gave a good education to those who persisted all the way through. I have copies of the books my father was taught from (the Ontario Readers) – a typical U.S. high school graduate of today has less familiarity with history and literature than these children of the early twentieth century.
The village my father grew up in was populated by farmers and fishermen. It has faded away, although a few men still fish for lobster there, and most of the dwelling places are now vacation homes, empty most of the time. My father was a Canadian “barefoot boy with cheek of tan”, in John Greenleaf Whittier’s phrase (and he could recite verses from the poem). His son grew up as an American Army brat in places like Arlington, Falls Church and Petersburg, VA, and Japan and Italy. I know of the closeness and the mutual support and the long-standing feuds and the boredom of village life only by hearsay, as Hillary does. In a certain sense, the faith community my wife and I belong to provides us with some of the advantages of a village-like environment.
The phrase “it takes a village to raise a child”, nostalgic as it is for a never-experienced imagined paradise, embodies the truth that an isolated nuclear family cannot produce an educated, productive citizen without participation by others who have the child’s welfare at heart – these days scouting and soccer teams attempt to fulfill these functions.
I believe the old Spanish saying goes, “small town, big hell”. That pretty much sums up PC culture. Everybody knows and minds your business.
Hilary was making a policy position with this book while married to President Clinton. “Better off under slavery” Those are your words not mine.
Your statement is indeed factually incorrect. All slaves in the United States were not on plantations; slaves did have families – they did not have legal freedom though some obtained it. But not to worry, whites, especially Southern whites, will always have legacy guilt. That’s why “Black Lives Matter” and “Deplorable” are being used to slur those who don’t agree with the political left today.
Try these Canadian sites:
Thank you for your comments.
That, certainly, has not been the experience on the Iranian Plateau, in Anatolia, or in India where tens of millions of souls have been voting with their feet and abandoning the village in favor of the city.
A 2-hour fever could kill one’s child in those villages; there was no electricity, no potable water, no education, no entertainment, no books, no literacy, no refuse collection, no public or private baths.
I think we are talking about qualitatively different things…
I don’t know about others, but in my case, I voted for W in 2000 and have regretted it for 16 years since. I wish in retrospect that MORE people should have voted for Nader to put the fear of voters into the politicians, that the voters should not be taken for granted. Gore was just as Borgist as W, for all practical purposes: nothing really different would have transpired had Gore won in 2000. Yet, politicians and their fans try to scaremonger the voters into being scared shitless of such trivial differences and voting for beelzebum instead of beelzebub.
I think the kind of “village” that people on the left idealize is something that works like this:
In small societies where people “know” one another, they are willing to be more tolerant, as long as they are dealing with fellow villagers. The flip side, of course, is that while they are willing to accept fellow tribals even when they are “weird,” they tend to be very intolerant of the people not from their tribe. So the paradox of the “statist village life”: tolerate everyone like they are fellow villagers, even if they are strangers…or else. In a sense, this is exactly how villages get broken, not how they built–to be replaced by (ironic) Potemkin villages where everyone pretends to love each other but trusts no one.
If we are at the point where we should ignore the opinions of people who are financially successful or don’t live in minority dominant areas then we are going to have to ignore a lot of people. I suspect that neither of the two leading POTUS candidates would qualify either.
I just read the essay by Bill Moyers linked below by another poster (reposting the link here: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/09/bill-mowers-we-the-plutocrats-s-we-the-people-saving-the-sou-l-of-democracy.html) . His depiction of the community he grew up–and the “village” of the proverbial one-percenters/non-deplorables/whatever–strikes me as the flip side of the idealized “village” from the public radio story, where the outsiders are held in contempt, with the attendant tut-tutting that they are not good enough to be “real villagers,” while the transgressions of the insiders are excused for this reason or that. HRC and her ilk already live in a village–the bad kind.
I kind of like “deplore this” (with suitable hand gesture) as a mass response to Hillary. I live in Nebraska. Where by the way, my local library system has already stocked up on multiple copies of Hillary Clinton biographies for kids. Here’s a link on Amazon, which has a nice picture of the front cover, with St. Hillary on the cover. Link: https://www.amazon.com/Hillary-Jonah-Winter/dp/0553533886/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1473866057&sr=8-1&keywords=children%27s+books+Hillary This book would make a proper medieval hagiographer blush with shame. Perhaps we should not canonize her yet, we could regard her as a reincarnation of St. Uncumber, a sometimes bearded lady, who helps young women unburden themselves of unwelcome suitors. There are several other children’s biographies of Hillary in the same vein, in our library, including this one for children just learning to read: https://www.amazon.com/Hillary-Clinton-Life-Leader-Reading/dp/110193235X/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1473866057&sr=8-4&keywords=children%27s+books+Hillary Written by the same folks who brought you that book about the glorious sacrifices of Comrade Stalin in the Great Patriotic War. Sick beyond description.
But if David Duke and his ilk raise some good points, their bigotry and racism should be deplored. Are people saying that because Duke, the Klan, and neo-Nazis raise some valid issues, that they should be emulated?
Who is saying that? Neither Trump nor Pence is saying that. pl
Your selective outrage is almost as sad as your misuse of terms.
Ah, the sun rises in the east and Edward resorts ineffectively to womanly snark.
Yes, Trump is amazing. Tell me more about Borg Grandma being the picture of health.
You’re missing the forest for the trees.
My larger point is that Edward favors policies that push the importation of more foreign element, cannot rush in fast enough to defend his holy negroes, and is always going on about his progressive creds…
While living in an ultra right, rather wealthy zip code where the only “people of color” he sees are the gardeners or serving staff.
Its the hypocrisy, dear boy.
Its not where he lives, its his hypocrisy in surrounding himself with wealth and white people while he comes on here playing Edward the Progressive Warrior, defender of minorities and foe of the rich.
Instead you’ve got another limousine liberal who wants diversity for thee, but not for he. Not shocked but there it is.
so your logic is that we should elect him to resolve our divisions. this is a novel argument
Obama has been in office almost 8 years. His current and former AG’s have charged how many banksters? Who is it that went after Christians for not backing a cake? Which colleges and ending due process for those charged with crimes on campus? Which colleges are imposing free speech restrictions and banning open debate in public? Try again.
Other than St. Bernie, whose wife bankrupted the college she ran, there have been essentially zero people elected to any elected office of consequence ever. Bernie turned around from his claims “The system is rigged” to endorsing the non-deplorable candidate. Integrity in action.
Thank you for your comments.
I guess, being an urban kid, it was inconceivable for me to live in any other place without asphalt, concrete, gasoline fumes, noise, crowds, electricity, dentists, potable water, AC, museums, cinemas, art galleries, public libraries, concert halls, car mechanics, super markets, furniture stores, etc.
It was very odd for me to learn how modern Greeks still took annual trips to their ancestral villages – and I am not speaking here of Greek migrant workers; rather urban professionals.
What is in there in the village except, as you have observed, narrow-minded bigotry of the most insular kind?
And your observation: “…they tend to be very intolerant of the people not from their tribe…” extends – from my interlocutors of varied nationalities and ethnicities – to cities as well; some cities are more welcoming and many are not (even to people ostensibly from the same ethnicity who do not speak with the same dialect.)
I know professors who teach in this or that provincial university – in this or that country – and the moment they retire they are out of that place; in Korea, in Spain, in Iran, in US…
Hilary brought up David Duke earlier in the campaign as a way to discredit and disqualify any who might support Trump. “So and so said or did such and such despicable thing, denounce him/her or I’ll call you a racist.” It is a standard Kafka-trapping technique of the left.
Wiser words have not yet been uttered – fully agree.
Thanks: this is the correct URL:
If you check Brooklyn, you will see a family of 3 living in 48-square yards while across the river, there is the family driving their 757i to their Hampton’s spread.
Mind you, the Brooklyn family is college educated, dual income, etc.
This is the Gilded Age again.
How about the phrase that I have seen used in connection with France; “Deep France”? And then “Deep India”, “Deep USA”, etc.
If a man and a woman live together for a long period of time and have children that they raise together are they not married? you are cautioned not to attack the motives or status of others on SST. pl
Please get your demographics straight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_City
Discredited and disqualified – for all things I may comment on. Got it.
I recommend you tell these folks here to correct their articles to match your opinion:
Thank you very much for the insult. Good thing for me it is not your blog.
“And your observation: “…they tend to be very intolerant of the people not from their tribe…” extends – from my interlocutors of varied nationalities and ethnicities – to cities as well”
That is what I meant by how HRC and others of her ilk, and indeed, all of us, really do live in villages of some sort–just that we don’t realize it. The modern state, with the universally applied code of laws and such is an attempt to escape from the “villages” where the fellow tribals get all the breaks and where the non-tribals are picked on the smallest excuses. I think this is where the political correctness, of both the left and the right varieties, becomes destructive. The left, multiculturalist variety berates the universal law (which, in a western country, is bound to be based on western cultural mores, because of history and all that) for being “intolerant” and excuses infractions as long as it is done in the name of “multiculturalism.” The Right, on the other hand, condones the same kind of infractions, by declaring universal applicability of the law that does not fit their idea of the “proper culture.”
Being of East Asian culture, much more than I care to admit, I suppose I took on much more of their view on the “law” than not. Both Koreans and Chinese have multiple proverbs that roughly translate to “little people cannot bend laws” or “laws are for little people.” (The “law” not being just the legal code per se, but social conventions, moral taboos, etc) The powerful do as they please, because they are “right” or whatever, and the little people get righted on, so to speak. Sadly, this is increasingly the universal view, held by the elites everywhere: I don’t see a shred of difference between any of the leading US politicians these days, all of whom regard the same view–we are right, they are wrong, and the law is irrelevant as long as we are right. Sure, they say different things and belong to different sides, but who cares given their cavalier attitude towards the “law”?
Socrates was a fool to take the hemlock, apparently.
This article has a great deal of interesting information on Clinton’s religious background. It says that Clinton’s conservative Methodist upbringing “naturally led Clinton toward the gop. She was a Goldwater Girl…”. That training, focused on Paul Tillich and Reinholt Niebuhr, appears to have been an artifact of her particular youth pastor. I don’t know how representative it is of Methodists in general. Not very, I would think, based on the ones I know.
That says something about Clinton, but more troubling to me is her active participation in The Fellowship, a secretive cult-like Christian group.
Maybe you know something about them, Colonel. I’m personally not encouraged to know that Clinton’s strongest religious affiliation is with this group which includes so many extreme right-wing politicians (DeMint, Inhofe, Strom Thurmond (formerly)).
I never knew there were so many different kinds of white people.
Your observation about professors in provincial universities is right on, I think, although with a caveat. In my experiences, people of that sort in provincial places form a very exclusivist circle that is hostile to people who don’t fit their tribal thinking–so a group of ultra leftist faculty at a state university in a conservative state, for example. They might convince themselves that they are not trying to “indoctrinate” and they might really mean it–but if you think doctrinaire thought most of the time, and indeed, wear it while dealing with your fellow tribals, it is bound to show even if you don’t think you are. This was, in my experience, way too obvious that it was downright comical how they did not see it (and I am sure they were honest when they insisted that they are not being “political.”)
On the flip side, my SWMBO (more or less–at least for now) is from rural Louisiana–let’s say a rather different environment, to say the least. On the one hand, I found her people far more “genuine” than people whom I run into professionally, but rural South is not a place where people who look different can easily fit into either. But I don’t see many places where a rural Southerner might fit in when she doesn’t want to put on a politically correct mask, on the third hand.
How do you explain Bobby Jindal? pl
That’s exactly my point. People should “waste” more votes on people who will not necessarily be elected, if only to show the complacent politicians that the votes don’t come cheap. It may help the slightly more evil people get elected for now, but if the politicians get scared of voters enough, they might actually pay attention to the voters.
The greatest contribution that Sanders made in 2016 was to scare HRC shitless, until he turned around and became her lapdog. I’m hoping that the voters who supported him won’t be turned so easily if only to teach these politicians a hard lesson.
I’m not entirely sure what you are asking exactly about, but there are some differences, I think.
Jindal is actually from Louisiana and grew up there. By not “fitting in,” I don’t just mean in terms of physical appearance, but in terms of knowing the “local culture.” My understanding is that he fits the latter even if he might not “look” the part. This may be achievable if given enough time, but not an option for me, at the present. Maybe, in 25-30 years, I might settle down in Louisiana after retiring…but not now.
I guess what I am saying is not that the South, Louisiana, or rural folk are necessarily hostile to people who are minorities, but that it takes a lot of effort to become “local” in such settings: just “pretending” and saying the “right BS” without significance is not enough. But that takes an effort that would take a lot of concentrated effort. I don’t think it’s unique to any one place–places with “old souls,” regardless of country or culture, I imagine, are harder for outsiders to melt into without a lot of effort.
I suppose this is the odd thing about Louisiana that I really appreciated: among the academic tribe, I knew that they were insistent on viewing me as “the East Asian” and made presumptions that, at times, I found downright offensive, even if “politically correct.” I appreciated, among the Louisianans, that they made no such presumptions and they treated me like “everyone else,” which is to say, with utmost graciousness. But, it was also clear that becoming a real Southerner was something that took a real effort, if it was at all doable for someone from outside like me.
It is possible but difficult to become a member of a new culture. You would have to work at it. pl
While Hilary wasted quite a bit of rich peoples money beating Bernie that contest was not in any doubt from teh start. The 3rd party voters didn’t teach anyone anything. If the Greens are serious at all they’ll start running for local office. The fact they don’t shows these votes are little more than virtue signals.
I once heard about an Iranian professor (of economics) in a Japanese university who had made an excellent transition into the Japanese culture – unlike L. Heron; even though both had Japanese wives.
The Australian who told me this was rather wistful, was wondering loud if there were cultural affinities; to which I responded by stating two analogues: Saving Face/Honor and Omiaie.
I think also North European culture is particularly inaccessible to foreigners from the Near East and Far East. Hindus do not even try as they are in their own Universe.
That’s not Monmouth County. Fite me irl
To add to your list of reasons for caution, I recently read that Trump has made a person called Stephen Moore his primary economic adviser. Stephen Moore is a propagandist for the Cato Foundation ( a Libertarian Spin Mill) and is a founder of the Club For Growth, another Koch Brothers founded Libertarian Spin Mill. I don’t know what other groups he may be in. He is devoted to the cause of abolishing Social Security and strictly privatizing all the money involved. He is also a devoted supporter of Free Trade Agreements.
The fact that Trump would make such a person his principal economic adviser makes me wonder if Trump has any analytical intelligence at all beyond the low cunning and narrow shrewdness required to make money hustling Real Estate development schemes.
The problem we face in this election is that while voting for Trump may not help, it won’t hurt either. So there we are. And in terms of lowering the chances of war with Russia leading to nuclear exchange, it may indeed help.
I have had the occasional gleeful moments saying to Nader Voters:
” Don’t blame me. I voted for Gore.”
Sanders always said right from the start that he would end up supporting Clinton if she won the nomination. So that should not have been a surprise to Sanders supporters. What WAS surprising was that he announced his support beFORE the actual floor votes and floor fights, even if only by a day. That made some of us . . .
a horse’s head
in Sanders’ bed.
That said, I think he knew a lot of his supporters would not vote for Clinton in any case. And a lot of us Bitter Berners indeed will not vote for Clinton in any case.
I know professor Rajabzadeh he is very well versed in japanese language and culture.
A necessary first step is to keep doing exactly what you are doing which is reminding readers as many times as necessary . . . that there is money to be followed, someone getting rich at everyone else’s expense, scams to end, white collar criminals to jail and Wars to be stopped. Steady reminders are necessary to refocus minds in the face of constant efforts to blur and divert minds away from sharpness and focus.
FYI, there is also Tavazoo in Toronto, I visited them 2 years ago, very good large selection and they ship to US
I’m not sure if the South, if the South that I’ve seen is any indication, is really what most people would associate with “North European” (although I’m a bit lost on how to best characterize it without doing either the South or the “North European” too much injustice.) In many ways, I found Louisiana a setting far more easier to connect with than the people that I deal with professionally, even if I’d have to work much harder to “blend in.”
She wasn’t completely limp. Her lower extremities were completely rigid, and she was immobilized. Frozen is a much better way to describe Hillary this past Sunday.
“… I don’t see many places where a rural Southerner might fit in when she doesn’t want to put on a politically correct mask,…”
You can be a very urbane and well educated Southerner and still be ostracized.
The non-witholding of SS taxes Moyers mentions sank a couple of Clinton’s AG nominees in the 1990’s. But they were all living in the city and the servants were illegal aliens so that certainly doesn’t make the same folksy anecdote of some 1950’s housewives in a small segregated Texas town. Moyers worked on LBJ’s staff; they are the people who gave us the welfare state.
HRC was raised a Methodist; iirc, her father was a very active member of their congregation.
Methodism, as noted by another commenter, arose as a workingman’s form of Protestantism in rural England. Wesley himself was an Anglican theologian at Oxford, and is recognized as one of the 50 most influential Englishmen in history. The faith arrived in the US through Wesley’s circuit ministry in the South (primarily, Georgia).
The fact that HRC was a Methodist is traditionally considered an indicator of social class (lower – lower middle – middle; a very old joke runs something as follows: How do you distinguish the Protestant sects? A Methodist is a Baptist who can read; a Presbyterian is a Methodist who went to college, and an Episcopalian is a Presbyterian with a trust fund.)
The primary tenets of a practicing Methodist remain those of the founder: love, justice, compassion for all, and the ethos of the church strongly urges that these tenets be practiced by believers in their daily, lived existence.
I was raised a Methodist and still aspire to the above tenets. While there can be a certain rigidity of beliefs (judgmental), the Methodists’ Social Creed is one of the most progressive platforms for social involvement in the U.S. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Creed_(Methodist)
I am, frankly, at a loss as to how all this fits with the lived experience of HRC. As a practicing/believing Methodist, instead of referring to a “basket of deplorables”, her religious beliefs ought to have prompted her to express compassion for those who live in constant fear and uncertainty as a consequence of the neoliberal policies she espouses.
This reminds me of my experience here in the region of Cape Cod Bay, with people from Away, often from New York or Ohio or New Jersey, making fun of our accents, to our face. Asking us to pronounce stuff for them like wind-up toys. Really enraging behavior. Stuff like that accumulates for a lifetime. Our liberal goodthinker class really doesn’t understand how casually arrogant they are towards people who aren’t like them.
Methodism is something I’m very interested in. Everything said so far has been correct. Just to expand on it a bit, here are a number of observations I’d make (full disclosure: much of this comes from an American Religious History class I taught a decade ago; yes, I am a recovering Academic – got the degree and ran; they are divorced from the People of this country, most of them, and I wasn’t happy among them; that said, there are still some old school humanists teaching good books):
Both HRC and Thatcher, I am not the first to observe, come from Methodist backgrounds, and it has been significant in the formation of a certain kind of morality among Anglophone business classes.
Methodism is associated above all with the figure of Charles Wesley, an 18th c Anglican churchman who emphasized a more emotional and direct form of Christianity. This appealed to those on the margins of British society, as noted, and effectively became the national religion in Wales, where Methodist habits, like hymn-singing, became national. There is a strong overlap between Methodism and various species of 19th c radical reform in the UK.
In the US, Methodism was part and parcel of both the First (1740s) and Second (1810-1840s) Great Awakenings. The opening of the trans-Appalachian West provided a wide theatre for evangelizing efforts, and the Methodist circuit-rider, ministering to scattered congregations in Kentucky or Indiana, became a widespread fixture of the rural 19th century landscape. Their great rivals were the Baptists, whose tendencies were towards greater doctrinal and congregational radicalism.
Significantly, Methodism became associated with the cause of reform on both sides of the Atlantic. Abolition and temperance grew out of strong Methodist roots, for instance. In addition, the above-mentioned strictures of personal sobriety and discipline meant that, in some places, Methodists began to accumulate capital in a fashion described by Max Weber in “The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism”, a hundred years old and still incisive.
While Methodism filled genuine social needs in the 18th and 19th century, it also had tendencies towards pious hypocrisy. In _Wuthering Heights_, for instance, the bigoted servant Joseph, is a biting satire of strenuous Yorkshire Methodism.
So the perfectionism and kind of moral absolutism you identify in HRC and also present in Thatcher, has long antecedents in the history of Methodism.
Thanks for reading and also for this blog as a whole.
Everybody knows and minds your business.
This is a great statement, Fred. That fits 100% my own experience when I ended up in a tiny town with 14, for the upper tertia, or the last five years of my years in school (Gymnasium), in a bigger town nearby. … Mind you, my father was born there, which possibly made things worse. 😉
Edward has been saying for years he’s a NYC resident. As you know on the internet no one knows you are a dog. Ruff!
Thanks, yes, this might be him; about the right age.
The Australian fellow mentioned that he had asked that professor to officiate at his wedding (to a Japanese woman) and he had done it in a masterly manner.
“tendencies towards pious (religious) hypocrisy” – common to all humankind.
“When Africans were taken from their homes and forced into slavery, they were separated from mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers and were torn from extensive kinship networks. Enslaved in the British colonies of North America or the free states of the American Union, the ability of Africans to reestablish nuclear families and familial support systems depended on many factors including the needs and desires of the slave owner. As the circumstances of slavery changed across time and place, the opportunities for slaves to marry, have children, and create stable family units fluctuated.” Interesting. With regard to your first point, the image of probably European (?) slavers taking people from their homes is a bit of an oversimplification since many of those sold into the slave trade with the British North American colonies, Brazil and the Caribbean were already slaves in Africa, sold by their African masters for profit. Another group of them were prisoners taken in intra-African wars and disposed of as spoils of war. On your second point I would agree that the legal conditions and actual conditions of slavery in the US (nearly all the states north and south)varied widely in palce and time. None of this justifies slavery in a country the founding principles of which had been so well stated by Jefferson, but precision in description is valuable. pl
“Get back to me after you’ve digested it….” Charming. You have all the SJW techniques down pat. It is not 1971, that was almost 5 decades ago. The US Chamber of Congress is not running public policy. For half the people in the Republic Nixon is a name they have to google.
“i have multiple friends who are core members of their churches, deacons, Pastors, and Priests. NONE of them …:”
Your friends are not the authority on interpreting Christian conduct. Neither is the US Supreme Court nor any other subordinate court though they certainly impose policy.
” it is only recently that new generations of students have begun to use PC arguments to shut down on-campus political and academic freedoms in the same way that Conservatives have already been doing for decades…”
That is incorrect. The make up us US colleges and universities is not and has not been conservative for many decades. Yale and Berkeley as two examples are not for profit but they are at the forefront of the PC revolution. The federal government’s use of a new interpretation of Title IX is the Obama administration. Here are a trio of recent and relevant news articles to this affect:
“The “Drug War” – which is what is *ACTUALLY* responsible for the destruction of … families and communities (rather than your quite fantastically short-sighted prejudice …) – was almost entirely a product of Republican efforts. “
The “War on Poverty” and the “Great Society” were LBJ initiatives passed by a democratically controlled house and senate. LBJ was a Democrat. Americans – including blacks – have agency. The government does not cause people to take or to sell drugs but puts them in jail when they are tried and convicted for doing so. “Providing housing, food and clothing”. Most families are capable of providing food, clothing and housing for their families without the need for government handouts.
Here is an example of a slave wedding at Arlington House. http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-washington-family-tree-biracial-article-1.2796081 pl
I recommend you contact this person to see if he has any other insights on what constitutes proper Christian conduct:
“I may be wrong, of course, but for my own part….well, i have actually lived through the last 30 years of US academic devolution, and i’m quite amused that you think University support of students equates with resentment of the people who paid them to get educated.”
Well comrade Taiwan is not the United States. Taxpayer funded universities in the US will either follow the directions given in regards to the funding or lose the tax dollars regardless of the hurt feelings of tenured faculty.