In an earlier post I suggested that the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment would be in the mood for revenge against those who tortured, mutilated and beheaded two members of "B" Company’s First Platoon. There are about forty men in a platoon. They are commanded by a lieutenant. It now appears that this may have been vengeance in reprisal for the prior actions of some members of the same unit.
The man in the picture here is Steven Green who according to the Post’s story, was until recently a member of that platoon. He has been charged in civilian federal court with the rape and murder of a young Iraqi woman at the town of Mahmoudiya south of Baghdad. The charge includes the murder of several members of her family. According to the charges made against him, he and three soldiers still on active duty planned and carried out these grotesque crimes at the girl’s family home near a checkpoint on a highway outside Mahmoudiya.
In my opinion these men should be tried by the Army and not by the US civilian courts. Lawyers are clever. They can find a way to return Green to military jurisdiction. He should be tried by the Army, in Iraq and punished there if convicted. The same thing applies to those still on active duty.
If the charges are correct, this man and his friends did these gross things wearing our uniform. They have greatly injured not only this poor woman and her family, but also the honor of the Army and the United States. the Army should deal with them.
Well, I predict that the fallout will be, huge. And this episode, as its components are confirmed, or rejected, will reveal a great deal about the entire effort in Iraq. And to the extent someone reminds me that ‘this shit happens in war’, a truism I am too familiar with, I respond in anticipation: ‘yes, they do happen. All the time. In all conflicts. And often, when they do happen, they come with long lasting, multifaceted, complex, negative, consequences for the side of the deed doers. Fair or not. I fear that will be the case here although if it leads to Americans getting out of that hell hole faster some good will have come of it. They can’t get the troops out of there fast enough for me.
On an entirely different note, could someone tell me (I was in different branch than the Army and in any event it was long ago) how a person could be a member of airborne unit, being in the service less than 11 months? Some of which was obviously spent in Iraq. So…what, you get in your wings in 8 months or so? How long is boot camp (basic training, as the army calls it) these days? And how long is what once called ITR training? Airborne training? Just curious.
Steven D. Green is the poster boy of our broken military.
Well, I suspect there are many poster boys (and girls) for the broken military. Some of them are tremendous human beings, staying sane, humane, and disciplined soldiers in the face of chaos, exhaustion, poor leadership, and an omnipresent nagging doubt regarding the mission.
And then there are other types.
In any event, it looks like Green WAS, literally, a poster boy for our military once. Here, from the ‘good news’ Express.
Which may my earlier question more interesting, if only to myself. Because if this picture is THEE Green, and he was in Iraq in Dec, and he was in the airborne, and he was in the Army for a total of 11 months, something does not add up. Or I must be seriously overestimating the training to become airborne. I’m wondering what, if anything, is going to come out of the investigation into why, and when, this guy was recommend for discharge. Something stinks here.
I agree with Colonel Lang, I don’t understand why he was not charged under the UCMJ provisions which allow court martial for offenses committed while on active duty and reactivated for trial.
There could be a horror show of some civilian jury being manipulated into acquiting Green by a combination of a defense lawyer appealing to hatred of Arabs and sympathy for “our boys.”
The victims will be absent, only Green and other soldiers will be present, with possibly a few of the (hated) Iraqis testifying in Arabic through an interpreter and being cross-examined for “bias” on their attitudes on the USA, Christianity, etc.
Like jonst, I also wonder how and why he was discharged for “personality disorder.” What were the symptoms of the “personality disorder” which Green manifested and did they include (unwritten) knowledge of the massacre, known to NCOs and officers. They don’t easily discharge people for “personality disorder,” think of Klinger on M*A*S*H, and you get the picture there. In 11 years active duty, I never saw a servicemember discharged for “personality disorder” despite encountering many servicemembers who were quite crazy.
jonst, the 101st Airborne is no longer an “airborne” unit, Basic Airborne is not required, and that is only 3 weeks. Training for an infantryman is about 2 months basic training and 2 months infantry AIT, combined into one course now (OSUT) at Ft. Benning.
I respectfully disagree with your desire to see this young man tried under the UCMJ. Although the United States doesn’t have a Status of Forces agreement with the “sovreign” Iraqi government, I would prefer this individual be tried by an Iraqi court and if guilty punished according to their laws. It’s time for this country to put it’s money where it’s mouth is.
I understand your feelings about this but I don’t thnik we can afford to have anyone other than the military try this/these men. the troops have to know that the Army itself rejects this behavior. pl
Good point, sir. I stand corrected. Thank you.
Richard, it’s also not legally possible, because CPA Order 17 provides for immunity from prosecution under Iraqi law for coalition troops. This has been implicity endorsed by the UN Security Council resolutions and probably a secret status-of-forces agreement between the US and Iraqi governments.
Thanks Green Zone, for clearing that up. Given the seriousness of the subject matter these questions may seem a bit off tone, but, Green Zone, or anyone else; how did it come about that ‘airborne’ is no longer an airborne unit? What replaced it? And how did the old timers in the 101st take that?
I agree with PL, Green should be tried, by the army, in Iraq.
But I still can’t get over the fact that someone could feel confident enough to discuss, and/or plan, this kind of horrible crime with numerous members of his platoon. Something is very, very wrong. Or the service has changed a great deal since my days in uniform.
I have nothing but a hunch but i feel we are going to look back and see this incident as a tipping point. There is something horribly symbolic about it.And its just starting. I think this thing (the investigation) is going to expand.
jonst, Col. Lang probably knows more about this, but the 101st was converted from an “airborne” unit where all members were on jump status to an “air assault” unit which was built around helicopter-borne assault.
The “Airborne” tab and the designation were kept for historical purposes.
This happened a long time ago, in the 70s or early 80s, I think.
The Army thought that mass parachute assaults were pretty much a thing of the past, but kept the 82nd and the airborne battalion in Italy (now expanded into the reactivated 173rd Airborne Brigade) as jump status units, apart from special operations forces and some recon and pathfinder companies and platoons. I guess the intervening years have ratified their judgment – only the Rangers in Grenada and Afghanistan and the 173rd in Iraq (the latter in friendly Kurdish regions) have been inserted by parachute. This is apart from small HALO or HAHO operations by SF that we don’t know about.
Airborne is most useful as a recruiting tool and means to develop esprit de corps. That plus its continued value in seizing an airfield keeps it around.
Returning to the issue of Green’s discharge for “personality disorder,” the more I think of it, the more it stinks. The Army usually reacts to soldiers with personality disorders by punishing the symptoms – AWOL, substance abuse, refusal to obey orders.
Contrast the way the Army treated Green with the way they treated Pvt. Dwayne Turner. Turner was a Combat Medic who got a Silver Star and Purple Heart in Iraq . When he got home, he went AWOL and smoked some pot. They busted him (OK) and kicked him out of the Army with a General Discharge, stripping him of his GI Bill benefits (not OK).
From what I’ve heard, lots of combat veterans are getting kicked out with general and other-than-honorable discharges for things like smoking pot after they get back from Hell, “Zero tolerance.”
When I was a unit clerk in Germany in the late 70s, we had a soldier that started pacing the hallway of the barracks at all hours. He’d be up at night walking around and smoking cigarettes. He was in his 30s and was prior service Air Force, honorably discharged.
After awhile of this strange and isolating behavior, he refused to get up and put on a uniform. He swung a broom at a lieutenant who came to order him.
It was pretty obvious that he was mentally ill, had slipped into some psychosis or other mental disorder.
He was court martialed and given six months and a bad conduct discharge. Man, that defense lawyer must not have been too good.
A year later, we got this pathetic letter from his mother to the CO, who wrote “Now my boy is home, he’s crazy, what am I going to do with him?”
All I can say is that I agree with your post, Pat Lang. Although I also appreciate Green Zone Cafe’s explanation why the soldier may not be tried in Iraq.
Thanks to Green Zone Cafe for that information.
And a general all around “thanks” to COL Lang for this wonderful site.
Yes, but he should be tried there. Yo not do so is to contribute to the disiintegration of discipline and the integrity of units and the authority of commanders. pl
I think some may have missed the point that nothing in the citation prevents a trial by court-martial in Iraq. pl
Yes, to clarify: Green could be tried by court-martial in Iraq by the Army. There have been court martials in Iraq – I once met a soldier on his way out with a bad conduct discharge for an offense committed before deployment after he had served 7 months in Iraq.
What CPA Order 17 says is that he could not be tried by the Iraqi courts.
One thing about trying him in a civilian court: no public Article 32 hearing, and no pre-election public revelation of the the evidence.
Very recently, two soldiers were kidnapped (and a third killed) while apparently alone and unsupported in the same area; if I remember correctly, the QRF got to the place they had been about ten minutes after they were attacked.
Here we have a story about a young PFC who led a group of other young soldiers — apparently all lower enlisted, if they were willing to follow a PFC — off his FOB, out into an Iraqi town, where they changed clothes, raped and killed, and then went home. Unnoticed! Until months later, when the story spilled out during some unrelated discussion.
Is there some sort of structure or leadership in place in this area, or is it Lord of the Flies up there?
If the Army hopes to send a message about its values and expectations, it will have to better than putting an E-3 on trial.
Green Zone Cafe wrote:
“Richard, it’s also not legally possible, because CPA Order 17 provides for immunity from prosecution under Iraqi law for coalition troops. This has been implicity endorsed by the UN Security Council resolutions and probably a secret status-of-forces agreement between the US and Iraqi governments.”
This is not so. While the US did try to get the Tranisitional Administrative Law and with it the CPA orders mentionend and endorsed in UN resolution 1546 (June 8, 2004) the TAL was not mentioned and not endorsed.
(source: http://www.mees.com/postedarticles/politics/PoliticalScene/a47n24c01.htm )
“Ayatollah ‘Ali al-Sitani, weighed in on 7 June with a warning that the TAL “was created by an unelected council in the shadow of occupation and under its direct impact. The matter is illegal and is rejected by most of the Iraqi people. Therefore any attempt to bestow legitimacy on this law by mentioning it in the international resolution…will have dangerous consequences.” The upshot of this confrontation was a clear win for the ayatollah, since the TAL is not mentioned at all in the resolution”
To construct this as an impicit UN endorsement is quite a strech.
There are about a million criminals behind bars in US out of a population of 280 million.
This ratio, for the 135000 US troops in Iraq, yields about 500 criminals.
So, perhaps, one should expect as many criminal incidents; regardless of the War itself.
Neither group is a random sample of the US population and membership in the armed forces is denied to those who have backgrounds of criminal behsvior. pl
I think most combat vets, or students of history, or watchers of movies, are aware that horrible atrocities occur during conflicts. 99.9% in the heat of battle, or in its immediate wake. But, if reports can be believed, to have, at least, 5, I repeat, FIVE men, feel free to plan, and execute this kind of horrendous attack and rape of a child, at the very moment she is most likely aware that her parents, and sibling, have been murdered, is, excuse my language, F—king incredible! American soldiers?!
And then to think that, perhaps, big “perhaps”, but perhaps just the same, an officer/s may have conspired to expedite a discharge in order to cover this up is, almost, as incredible. Knowing the facts of this case. The entire incident, including the subsequent murder, and beheading (god knows what else) of the soldiers, sickens and saddens me. I fear for my country. I read on a blog today the sentence, referring to this matter, “Colonial regimes have collapsed over incidents like this.” I buy that and more.
Thank you for your reply.
I was trying to suggest that given the number of troops, one should expect a certain number of criminal incidents.
I agree that the basis for immunity from prosecution under Iraqi law for coalition forces is ambiguous under international law.
My assertion is based on a consent by silence and thus implicit endorsement of CPA Order 17 by both the UN Security Council and the Iraqi government so far.
UN SC Res 1546 says
the multinational force shall have the authority to take all necessary measures to contribute to the maintenance of security and stability in Iraq in accordance with the letters annexed to this resolution.
The letters annexed to the resolution limit this authority only by “the law of armed conflict” and not by any provision of Iraqi law.
The Iraqi government has not passed any enactment rejecting, adopting or modifying CPA Order 17. Some CPA Orders and provisions of the TAL have been expressly included or adopted in the new consitution, by other enactments or by implementing ministerial orders.
Interestingly, SC Council Resolution 1546 and its successor Res 1637 were supposed to have been renewed by 15 June 2006.
The Security Council Resolutions have not been renewed, and Iraqi PM Nuri al-Maliki
is in the news today questioning the immunity of coalition forces, which he seems to accept was “granted.”
We do not accept the violation of Iraqi people’s honor as happened in this case. We believe that the immunity granted to international forces has emboldened them to commit such crimes and … there must be a review of this immunity, he said.
Besides the allegations of the crimes committed, the post also speaks to an apparent lack of situation awareness in coalition ranks or, in many ways worse, they have awareness but disregard Iraqi humanity. Indeed, if pl’s conjecture over who was taking revenge is accurate, the Iraqis appear to have a better handle on ground truth and have grown impatient with coalition justice or just don’t believe it exists. The wizards are going to have to work overtime to get out of this mess.
To my mind, this incident, if true, is far worse than Haditha. At least in that case, the marines in question were under stress and facing continuous attacks.
But tracking down and raping a girl ? That sounds more like a thuggish third world army than the US army ? And actually killing everyone in the family including the girl ? Even thuggish third world army soldiers don’t often go that far.
Today’s news that Green was discharged for an “antisocial personality disorder” according to unnamed Army spokesmen, raises more questions about the reasons for that discharge.
“Antisocial personality disorder” is a synonym for psychopath or sociopath.
I’m sure it’s not a label the Army can slap on someone without evidence.
Evidence of antisocial personality disorder would seem to include the kind of misconduct which would usually get a soldier in trouble, but Green gets an honorable discharge.
Green will likely get the “insanity” defense in his federal trial, since he’s clearly such a nut job that the Army didn’t want him around. He’s going to stay alive, even if jailed for a long time, and the Iraqis will have another emotional grievance; just a drop in the bucket.
Of course, the mainstream media haven’t put two and two together regarding the subject of two soldiers killed in retaliation for this man’s (and others?) actions.
By the way, this is a great site Pat. Occam’s Razor all the time…
He’s a nut job who apparently got three or four — or possibly even more — other soldiers to follow him.
More On Hadji Girl
Yeah, I know I am conflating the two stories but who gives a damn. Read waht Col. Lang says here and then here. The good Col. is no shrinking violet, to be sure. On the other hand he’s an honorable man with intellectual integrity and a vast store of love
According to David R. Irvine, a lawyer and a retired Army Reserve brigadier general, Cheney and Rumsfeld may have been involved in suppressing the CID Tiger Force investigation…they ain’t talking.
It’s good to have such experienced leaders looking after us!
Utter bullshit. I investigated this matter at the request of the “Newshour.”
The unit involved was the reconnaissance platoon (under 40 men)of a line infantry battalion of the 101st Division. (1/327 Infantry)
This was in no sense a “Special Operations” anything. There were no special ops people involved in this in any way.
A lieutenant was in charge. The very nature of his duties took him and his men around the province he was in and that insured that his superiors were less likely to hear of what he was doing.
Rotation through the unit? why wouild there not be?
The newspaper that got a prize for this should have been sued by someone for slander. Their prize is a demonstration of the amount of ignorance and ill will that still exists after all this time about that war.
Were crimes committed by this platoon? Probably, but the feeding frezy generated by the newspaper crap is disgusting.
The retired reserve JAG guy should be ashamed of himself.
Thanks for your reply.
Do you suppose we will still be re-hashing OIF thirty years from now?
Dunno. Are you a Longstreet man or an Early man in re Gettysburg?
It’s been a while since I read Lee’s Lieutenants…clearly neither Early nor Longstreet were substitutes for Jackson.
I notice we’re rehashing the Crusades under another post…
Have you read Harry S. Stout’s Upon the Altar of the Nation: A Moral History of the Civil War? (I’m waiting for it to hit the shelves of my local library.)
We’re still a long way from grasping the meaning of that conflict or so it seems to me.
“..Upon the Altar of the Nation.” That pretty well sums the whole thing up. pl