Comment: As a soldier I lived for the principle of “the greater good.” I ask myself what I would have decided if faced with the “need” to employ these experimental “vaccines” in an attempt to halt the spread of COVID-19. pl
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Colonel:
One of the things that I see here in my dotage is that there was no good answer anywhere. We didn’t have a problem, we had a predicament.
Bohica: That is a word I haven’t heard in a long, long time.
Just sayin’.
I hope you are feeling better.
Degringolade
Better and still in convalescence but concerned about a relapse.
There are 17,875 self-reported deaths on the OpenVAERS project for all vaccines. Some incidents occur with babies following a regular immunization schedule, for vaccines that have been on the market for decades.
IMO a good study would be based on meta analysis of deaths/complications following new vaccines in the market compared to the COVID deaths/complications. It may help track a decline in FDA standards as both parties install business “experts” to federal positions as thanks for campaign fundraising.
P.S. If deaths resulting from blood clots/strokes should be counted as symptoms of a vaccine complication then deaths resulting from blood clots/strokes were also symptoms of COVID complications.
There was no valid argument for deploying the vaccines. None.
The claimed efficacy of 94% and greater was entirely fiction, given that they did not know how many of the test subjects, if any at all, had been exposed to the virus. A valid test for efficacy requires that ALL test subjects be exposed to the antigen.
And of course, no real test for adverse reactions was done. The test that was done was on an infinitely small sample. Television advertisements say “more that 70,000 people,” which is a sample so small as to be meaningless. The duration of the test was some eight months or so, which is several years too short.
Releasing these vaccines for general use was a criminal act.
> Releasing these vaccines for general use was a criminal act.
Aye, but they know that. “If you’re going to lie, make the lie a big one.”
That’s the question foremost in my mind while following the recent discussion/debate. I figured the downside of the vaccine was outweighed by the downside of the virus, but that was without numbers. So I did some calculations.
187,237,000 vaccinated with at least one shot
9,048 deaths among that population
The rate of death is .000048
Compare that to the figure of 184.97 Covid-19 deaths per 100000 population, a figure that includes both the infected and not infected.
The rate of death is .0018
To me, the decision to go forward with a vaccination program as opposed to letting nature take its course or pushing for widespread infection to induce natural immunity is pretty damned clear. Another problem with the letting nature take its course route is that nature’s course encourages further mutations of the virus.
The risk of dying from Covid-19 is low. The risk of dying from the vaccines is far lower, but there is still a risk. We still don’t understand the long term effects of Covid-19 or the vaccines. I’m reminded of what Father Cafferty, a cantankerous old Jesuit, said as he handed us our Latin exams, “You pays your money, You takes your chance.”
TTG,
Too early to make this comparative analysis. Death rates from the virus are being dialed down in many counties by as much as 30% as they were apparently exaggerated. We don’t yet know the real repercussions of this experimental vaccine.
The question is will we ever know, just like the origin question? There seems to be no significant demand from the “authorities” for a serious and transparent investigation. Instead there appears to be a real effort to sweep it all under the rug with misinformation and obfuscation.
Not a valid comparison. The valid comparison is lives saved vs, deaths caused. The lives saved is unknown because it is unknown how many of the vaccinated population were exposed to the virus.
Comparing a vast population before the vaccine, versus a vast population after the vaccine has far too many variables to claim with authority that the vaccine was the agent reducing the death count. Among many other issues, the unvaccinated population’s death count may have been, and almost certainly was, over counted and deaths caused by the vaccine have certainly been under counted.
Bill and Sam, the only other data point I’ll throw into the mix is that 99% plus of those dying or hospitalized now with Covid-19 are either unvaccinated or have only one of the two shot deals. That’s not just statistically significant, it’s an overwhelmingly significant percentage. I know it’s not a scientifically or statistically tested figure, but it does lean towards the lives saved figure you’re looking for.
Finally, I am concerned about the long term effects of these experimental mRNA vaccines. I’m also worried about the long term cardiovascular, neurological and Lord knows what other kind of effects of the Covid-19. The yearly flu doesn’t do that stuff.
TTG,
What is their age?
Still plenty of 80+ year olds, but a lot more 50 to 60 year olds as well. In general, the age is trending lower among the dead and hospitalized. The one definite trend is the vast majority of those dying and hospitalized are not vaccinated.
So the 0-18 year olds are still effectively zero.
TTG,
One of the issues with this virus is the data collection & reporting. Definitely not consistent.
Apparently during the height of the pandemic hysteria if you died in a car accident but tested positive for covid you were in the death by covid data bucket. Now they are changing those definitions, so how can one compare earlier data to current data?
Then take the case of India more recently where vaccine penetration is very low. They had a massive spike relative to their fist wave and we saw many of our corporate news media do the usual ambulances chasing human interest stories. Then the deaths and even cases collapsed after that wave burned out. It wasn’t vaccines. Some of the Indian states prioritized treatment of those afflicted because that’s all they could do. Data you see now show that most of those treated with ivermectin recovered without ICU hospitalization.
As you know very well GIGO is a real problem with data analytics.
Like most things in the US every issue tends to become a religious battle.
BP,
If they have a heart attack and die + test positive + were vaccinated, cause of death = heart attack.
If they have a heart attack and die + test positive + were NOT vaccinated, cause of death = covid.
Lots of people have covid virus in their sinus track. It doesn’t even have to be live virus to trigger a positive test.
Lots of opportunity to fiddle with figures; lots of motives too.
I still don’t understand why I need to take the vaccine. If it’s effective, then the at risk vaccinated 80 year old is fine.
I still don’t see all of the covid deaths and hospitalizations that are allegedly occurring.
Blue, Amen to that. Every issue in the US does now tend to quickly devolve into a politico-religious battle. And both Gs in GIGO are increasingly politico-religious. Covid is a diabolical and deadly CHICOM plot willfully unleashed on the West or a run of the mill flu bug that we should never have reacted to. Both those views can be held by the same person depending on what particular outrage he or she wants to stoke at the moment.
Eric
This is the problem with the covid death count. Take for example Alameda County, California who took down their death count by 25%.
https://abc7news.com/covid-death-count-alameda-county-deaths-19-cases/10755419/
How many counties over-stated deaths by covid in this manner? Was the hysteria justified? How can we analyze covid deaths when the data is faulty?
As Sam linked to the case of Israel above, what we are seeing is that natural covid immunity is better than the vaccine. It would appear then that treating those infected and sick is better than a vaccine where a much larger percentage are getting infected and having to take the risk of unknown long-term side effects.
How can ordinary people make rational decisions when we don’t have good data and there is a push by governments, media and businesses to force people to take an unapproved vaccine where the safety & toxicology trials have not yet been completed? The real question that needs to be asked is why this push by the authorities to vaccinate with an unapproved experimental vaccine?
BP,
Yes (re; the Alemda, CA example). That is what I’ve been saying since day one of this covid panic. There is a lot more along those lines I’d like to present, but I can’t.
Re; the public lacking quality information upon which to base rational decisions. That information exists. I know for a fact that it does. However, there is a tremendous societal machine that has been built up to suppress that information at all junctures. I’ve never seen anything like it; excepting, perhaps, the build up to the invasion of Iraq on the premise of WMD and AQ linkage- when Democrats, Republicans, all media outlets united in the call for war and the image of mushroom clouds over NYC were set into peoples’ minds. Anyone who questioned that call was attacked mercilessly.
TTG
Interesting data out of Israel…
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/are-recovered-covid-patients-more-protected-than-the-vaccinated/
TTG,
Your statistic (99% of those allegedly dying from covid now are unvaccinated) intrigued me and I have looked into it.
An alternative explanation to what you are implying is as follows: Covid has always disproportionately – like way disproportionately – killed the elderly and, among the elderly, the poor minorities. Among deaths in the 50 – 65 age range, the poor and minorities are even more disproportionately represented.
It is also true that the poor and minorities are at very low vaccination levels; far lower than college educated whites.
So the virus is still killing the same people that it has always killed. The vaccine hasn’t changed a thing.
Getting back to the greater good – I have distilled my perspective on that to two points.
1. Live free or die – If we have to exist in a hive mind state, controlled by a few queen bees, to stay alive, then it’s not worth it.
2. We are supposed to be men. We sacrifice for the women and children. Forcing children and pregnant women to take an experimental vaccine because I am at higher risk (due to age or whatever) and I believe that the forced vaccination will allow me to eek out a few more years of life, goes against my personal principles.
The greater good, to my mind, is maintaining freedom and honor. Your mileage may vary.
Of course we could just allow people to make their own choice and those at risk could choose the vaccination, or not. This whole debate is only occurring because a bunch of Stalinist in DC don’t respect our individual rights.
Eric, you said “So the virus is still killing the same people that it has always killed. The vaccine hasn’t changed a thing.”
The vaccine absolutely did change something. The same population is getting seriously ill and dying except for one factor. The vaccinated are mostly absent from that population. Yes,the vaccinated are taking a documented risk with an experimental vaccine, but they make that choice. The upside is that the vaccinated are far less likely to be among the seriously ill and dying. Adding to my personal decision to get the vaccine and urge my adult sons to get it was the risk of long term cardio-vascular and neurological effects showing up in those who were very sick or only appeared to have mild cases of Covid-19. Being under the weather for a week is no big deal, but those deeper, long-term effects definitely give me pause.
Still, it’s a personal decision and I think your thought process on this is reasonable and prudent. But if I were President, I’d be vigorously campaigning for vaccination both in this country and in other international viral hotspots in order to greatly reduce the incidence of the virus.
TTG,
That’s your interpretation of the data.
IMO, the stories of “long hauler” covid health impacts are apocryphal.
Neither you nor Walrus has yet explained why pregnant women and children should be vaccinated.
@TTG
“Yes,the vaccinated are taking a documented risk with an experimental vaccine, but they make that choice.”
No, the risk is not “documented” it is obfuscated, thus they don’t make any choice.
I am always amazed how the lefties have an ability to naturally lie, I am coming to suspect that it is because they talk of the world as it should be (in their views) rather than as it is.
That assumes that the alternative is no treatment. The various peer-reviewed meta-analysis reviews of Ivermectin show efficacy comparable to the Vaccine, no risk for ADE, or permanent myocarditis, and no one has a clue what the long term mRNA vaccine risks are (though all prior mRNA vaccines suffered from long term problems and none were approved for safety reasons).
Against this performance in India:
https://www.thedesertreview.com/news/national/ivermectin-obliterates-97-percent-of-delhi-cases/article_6a3be6b2-c31f-11eb-836d-2722d2325a08.html
which is being repeated in many other parts of the world. In fact, the widespread use of Ivermectin in Africa probably in part explains why Covid never decimated their elderly populations.
There is zero justification for the EUA for the mRNA vaccines, which only provide a narrow immunity, particularly for those who have recovered (or were asymptomatic) with the virus.
Its just unfair to compare a vaccine against no treatment.
https://twitter.com/jjchamie/status/1413907120592990213?s=21
Then there’s this from Australia:
https://twitter.com/michaelpsenger/status/1414315176333963266?s=21
Dunno if this is a real ad that ran Down Under.
“Another problem with the letting nature take its course route is that nature’s course encourages further mutations of the virus.”
This argument doesn’t hold up. This is assuming the U.S.A. is an Island in Space and we don’t live on a Planet named Earth.
There will always be a large population on this planet not vaccinated. And if this virus becomes endemic and ends up behaving like the Flu reemerging with vengeance every Fall/Winter respiratory illness season then any booster shot will be running behind the moving target.
Also, the Risk/Benefit of the vaccine for a young healthy individual below the age 30 is dramatically different than for a 60+ year old individual.
> The risk of dying from Covid-19 is low. The risk of dying from the vaccines is far lower, but there is still a risk.
The latter cannot be determined.
TTG, there is an error in your logic when comparing covid vs vaccine mortality rates: time has passed and the most vulnerable who have been exposed to covid, or to overly aggressive “treatment”, have died. It cannot be known how this same vulnerable cohort would have responded to the vaccine.
Everything sorrounding these mRNA vaccines is evil: human experimentation , no informed consent, lots of coercion, effective alternatives.
> Everything sorrounding these mRNA vaccines is evil: human experimentation , no informed consent, lots of coercion, effective alternatives. <
Hear, hear! And we're supposed to trust FaceBorg, Twit-twit,
and the "Joe Biden" Administration for today's version of "truth"?
I will pass on that.
You’re up against a predicament fueled by deliberate perception manipulation and out of control panic in the public. IMO, the greater good – in the long run – mandates you assemble a war room and fight both the manipulations/manipulators and bring the panic under control. If you surrender in this pivotal battle, they will be back to deploy against you in other big life altering ways and you will be done for in short order.
Short-term, you authorize the vaccines only for those truly at risk for a serious covid infection (the frail elderly and the significantly immunocompromised).
>You’re up against a predicament fueled by deliberate perception manipulation and out of control panic in the public. <
A good and interesting comment, because EN and myself are (as far as I can tell)
on the opposite ends of the political spectrum- yet I fully agree with him that we are being profoundly manipulated, to the advantage of the very few.
"Centrist" "Liberalism" is the mask of the Enemy- see the site politico.eu for their LGBTQIAXYZ+++ divide-and-rule manifesto.
The Greater Good is correlated to the size of the problem. COVID-19 was never a civilization collapsing disease like the Black Death which could kill 30-50% of a city’s population in a few months.
COVID-19 is a clear risk for the age groups 60+ and for people with certain pre-existing medical conditions. If it were the 0-25 year olds who died it could have been different. But once the high-risk groups have been vaccinated the problem becomes much smaller.
Compared COVID-19 with influenza (where we have effective vaccines)
Influenza mortality rates in 2019, USA based on age groups (I picked 2019 as the lock-down around the world has dramatically reduced influenza globally) Ca 61,000 deaths.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2017-2018.htm#table1
Compare with COVID-19 (the table covers 2020 plus part of 2021 so the numbers are a bit too high). The scale of the problem is limited. But it is clear that the elderly benefit from a vaccine shot. But the rest of the population not so much IMO. In the age group 18-49 it is only ca 10 times the number of deaths (27,932) compared to influenza in 2019 (2,803). In comparison some 38,000 people died in Motor Vehicle Traffic accidents in 2020.
Government use of force in such a situation is excessive. Enlightened self-interest in vaccination from the groups with high mortality risk should be enough.
COVID-19
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#SexAndAge
Traffic deaths
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/813115
We all had COVID in my household with different responses.
One person had a mild cold for two days, rest had absolutely no symptoms.
According to The Cleveland Clinic we have herd immunity:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v2
I trust them more than the current Health experts who have lied about:
1. The number inflected and number of deaths
2. Claimed that HCQ and other treatments did not work
3. Refuse to acknowledge Herd Immunity
4. Refuse to acknowledge the risk with experimental vaccines especially on young kids
5. Are now attempting to shame people or send people door to door to force people to be vaccinated
6. Still refuse to explain the origins of the virus
In the Free and Sane State of Florida, we did everything wrong according to the experts and came out better than those states that followed the experts guidelines.
Remember we have more elderly than most states.
Vaccination should be a personal decision between a person and their medical advisor, not mandate by the Bindenista Regime and their allies.
If the “need” was a lawful order I don’t doubt you would have obeyed and you would have been right to do so. Where obedience and sacrifice (including self sacrifice) are essential to the correct functioning of a hierarchical organization “The Greater Good” principal is necessary and appropriate. Wars are not won by the army who spends the most time pontificating on the rights of the individual. That topic warrants a whole separate discussion of course..
Thankfully, in America, the military exits to defend and is subordinate to, a set of different principals, based on the sovereignty of the individual. But today, it is apparent that federal government is infested by people who treat the above-mentioned set of principals as an anachronistic inconvenience. The latest example is HHS Sec. Xavier Becerra: “We want to give people the sense that they have the freedom to choose [the Vax]” says he. The technocrats know best (they consider themselves our “betters” in this hierarchy), do as they say and don’t question the order. If feeling like you have a choice makes you warm and fuzzy inside, knock yourself out.
Make no mistake, this the the Great
Leap ForwardReset underway. Biden’s administration is fully signed up to the WEF agenda and utilitarianism is at its core. Rousseau’s “general will”, Hegel’s dissolution of individual will into that of the state and Marxist totalitarianism has reached its latest incarnation at Davos. It is personified by Charles Schwab, the man who wants you to own nothing and be “happy”.Whatever the truth of the virus’ origins and its lethality, the Vax can be seen as a test. A test of the individual’s resolve to resist the will of the state. I choose to see it in these terms and choose to defend the principal of bodily sovereignty by not getting the Vax. This is a personal decision and I respect other people’s right to make theirs. If I die of Covid as a result people may laugh and call it Darwinism. Laugh all you like, I consider that this defense is for the greater good.
Barbara Ann, You’re 100% right. Minor quibble though, it’s Klaus and not Charles. Thanks.
Thanks – Charles is happy with me owning stuff, so long as he gets his commission.
IMO, there are three aspects to the “Greater Good” in the covid case.
First, understanding the origins, so that we can prevent the next one. This is now tangled up in politics and so we will never get to the bottom of it. What we know is that Fauci, Daszak, Farrar, et al have a conflict of interest and orchestrated along with the top science journals, media and virology researchers who have a funding axe to grind that an engineered virus is a conspiracy theory.
Second is the pandemic response and in particular the disproportionate impacts of lockdowns on the working class and school going kids and all those who could not receive paychecks as they couldn’t Zoom. And of course the exemptions for Big Business like Amazon, movie studios and others who were allowed to have large congregations. This again will not be examined in any detail and objectively as it raises serious questions of whether the constitution is abrogated in a pandemic and if public health officials have unlimited coercive power. Of course an examination of the tangible efficacy of the policies promulgated could not only embarrass those in positions of power but they would not want to give up the precedent of unlimited authority.
Third, is of course the vaccination of a significant proportion of the population with an experimental vaccine with inadequate testing of both short-term and long-term adverse effects. Here again there is a huge conflict of interest with pharmaceutical companies wanting such a precedent and even more making the vaccine de facto mandatory with vaccine passports for employment, travel and entertainment. In addition, using the flu shot analogy to make it recurring. All those that pushed for the vaccine rollout including CDC & FDA have a conflict of interest to obscure conflicting adverse data.
This again epitomizes the conflict in America over the past few decades. From mass surveillance, civil forfeiture, FISA abuse, market consolidation, offshoring of our manufacturing base, bailing out Wall St speculation and our endless “wars”. The greater good it appears is always sacrificed at the altar of powerful vested interests who rule the roost.
I’m not going to list them, as this would fill a book, but how many really bad things have been done to people under the aegis of “for the greater good”?
The fact that all other forms of flu receded in the onslaught of Covid is damning IMO.
Personally, I have remained exposed at work due to the way things must operate, but was tested weekly.
Then again, the testing itself is under severe scrutiny.
I’ll agree with Poul here – this was never a civilization threatening outbreak, certainly not a pandemic.
The phrase “do no harm” seems to have been ripped out of the vernacular. Let the thing run it’s course, because all other types of flu have disappeared according to the stats. People die every day – or we would have quite the crowded planet.
This entire thing is built on a foundation of fear and the false belief that life should be without any risk. This belief that there should be zero risk in life is one of the things that brought us to this, and until it runs its course, people are going to wail and gnash their teeth quite fearfully. Mandating vaccination is a red line for any of us, especially unproven vaccines.
https://www.ft.com/content/bfec0129-83e0-49d1-bf9d-e31ce47f6150
Thank you for the link to Open VAERS. After reading their FAQ, I realized I was searching the Wonder CDC database without the correct parameters that gave the full picture. I followed their guidance and was able to obtain the same results as them. I previously wrote that VAERS showed ~5300 deaths for C-19 vaccines compared to 79 for all vaccines for 2019.
The correct data is 9,048 reported deaths to VAERS from C-19 vaccine compared to 202 for all vaccines for 2019.
Some may be duplicate. But it doesn’t matter due to many probably not reported. Hard to say.
Only time will tell if this insane gamble pays off. The number of reported incidents to VAERS will likely tail off due to many of the remaining population refusing the vaccine. The number of 9,048 reported deaths from the vaccine is OUTRAGEOUS. And should have mobilized a response to find out why. But the “Gods “of Public Health are too deep in to admit any failure now.
My county is 26% fully vaccinated. Approximately 40,000 in the county. Official diagnoses of C-19 is 5,056 in the county with 92 deaths. I calculated that we are approximately at 63% total immunity in the county as of today.
This is how I came up with the figure.
26% vaccinated = 10,400
5,056 diagnosed cases ~ 12.5%
10,000 undiagnosed cases ~ 25%
Now here is where the politics come in. Many in my county would rather die in their trailer home before going to be tested for C-19 and confirmed to be infected. And we are a blue collar manufacturing community. Work or die. That is why I estimated for every one confirmed diagnosis there is two that goes undiagnosed. An RO of 2. Reasonable imo.
Estimated ~10,000 got sick and toughed it out. Or were kids and rolled with it easy.
So 26% + 12.5% + 25% = 63.5%
Herd immunity, if the virus becomes less lethal but more transmissible I estimate around 70%. Meaning a RO less than 1. RO of less than 1 means an infected individual will transmit it to less than 1 person on average. The 30% susceptible may not come in contact with the infected person. Or they may be young and healthy and their immune system easily handle the virus preventing transmission, etc.
Like I said, I estimate 70% to be herd immunity. And this for the Fall/Winter likely surge. Cases here are currently Zero. But it is summer and the South.
The reason I bring up my county is the question Colonel Lang proposed. Is the vaccines for the Greater Good? Clearly, not for the individuals who were killed by the vaccine. But we all know that is not the definition of the Greater Good.
It easier for me to judge by my county. As of today, the vaccines are a net benefit for my County. Even at 26% vaccinated. But those are our elderly. So the Risk Analysis for them made the small risk of dying from the vaccine a rational choice compared to as high of a 5% – 10% risk of dying from C-19 if very old and with co-morbidities.
My view may change. I’m not ideologically committed to any outcome. I personally want the vaccines to work for the elderly members in my family. But if the data starts going the other way then I will take over grocery shipping again for my 77 year old mom who is a smoker.
I do have strong views on vaccinating the young and healthy below age 24. I consider it criminal and if I had kids that young or younger there is no way in HELL they would get vaccinated.
If you are older than 50 then make a personal choice. Older than 60 the risk is worth playing Russian Roulette. Harsh but true.
Now if a member in my family like Colonel Lang had a very difficult time with the initial two shot protocol, I would highly recommend to stay away from a 3rd shot. Don’t let them scare you with the variant talk. The evidence is not there so far that it is more lethal than the initial variant Alpha. In fact, there is evidence the virus lethality is diminishing.
What would dramatically change my mind. If this Fall/Winter we have another large surge in cases and deaths like this past Fall/Winter. And younger people start dying who are vaccinated. This would set off alarm bells to me regarding ADE.
Then all hell is going to break lose. So lets pray it doesn’t happen.
re: “herd immunity”
Assuming this is the “good” that all “patriotic Americans” will get the jab to ensure —
One error is the assertion that vaccination is the only means of acquiring immunity, thereby contributing to herd immunity, aka the common good.
Natural immunity makes the same contribution to herd immunity, perhaps a superior form of immunity.
Some have even argued that those who suffer the most grievous side effects from vaccination are those who have a strong immune system, and their natural, strong immune system fights with the artificially introduced vaccine-immunity.
Even in this hyper-charged, politicized-medicine climate, it should be politically and scientifically doable to assess tested natural immunity to be as effective as vaccination.
If proof of “vaccination” is required by employers, airlines, cruises, etc., then proof of natural immunity should have exactly the same degree of acceptability.
(An interesting test: in Sept. 2019 I attended an outdoor event in Greenwich, CT. Perhaps a thousand people, mostly children and their parents (approx. 35 to 50 years old) and a few elders, almost all from the immediate vicinity, attended.
Upon return from that event, I had a nasty cold for about 2 weeks.
A year-and-a-half later I was tested and have antibodies for Coronavirus. I’ve never had a flu vaccine nor Covid vaccine.
I wonder if anybody else who attended that event in Greenwich, CT had a similar experience and/or had the Coronavirus.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/12/johnson-and-johnson-warning/
Notice the use of “rare” and “small number”?? Now you can see why Trump provided immunity in the deals with Big Pharma.
Worth revisiting..
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/long-shadow-1976-swine-flu-vaccine-fiasco-180961994/
Open VAERS is a conspiracy website. From it’s blog:
“ You can now join our email list to be notified of the call to action each week. Please tell your friends about this effort and invite them to join the movement to stop Pharma’s disastrous war against the American people. Most elected officials live inside an information bubble created by the pharmaceutical industry. We must introduce reality into their lives and make them see the harms that they are causing with these dangerous experimental gene therapies.”
There is little point in discussing the subject of vaccine adverse events because it is impossible to even get past the difficult subject of causality.
For any of you vaccine deniers to be correct requires the supposition that there is a worldwide conspiracy that of necessity involves the co opting of the entire working scientific and medical community on the planet, in detail.
To put it another way, do all of you think that every government and public service in the whole world is corrupt and in the pay of George Soros, Bill Gates and/or the illuminati?
What is of concern to me is the “meta message” the vaccine denial movement sends; that is the declining levels of trust in democratic government in America. That declining level of trust in ALL American institutions has dire long term consequences for the American economy because it directly impacts the ease and rate of capital formation.
Walrus,
I will ask you again, do you really think that pregnant women and children should be receiving the “vaccine”? Because the CDC does think so.
Can you please explain to me why a 6 year – who has virtually 0 chance of succumbing to covid – needs a vaccine?
Do you think that Iraq had WMD circa 2003?
As for causality (vaccine = death or disablement), are you familiar with inferential statistics? Even the FDA uses them. They’re everywhere. They are used to calculate the probability that a casual relationship exists between dependent and indecent variables. They can easily be employed to understand if the vaccines are causing serious issues.
“illuminati” nice straw man smear. There are a large number of experts in the field who think taking the vaccine is crazy. Someone posted a link on the other thread to this guy’s tweet. He used to work with a founder of Moderna ( https://twitter.com/luigi_warren/status/1412435221161463808?s=21 ). That’s one of many. You just don’t want to acknowledge it because it doesn’t fit your narrative.
Not all of the world’s governments are going hog wild for vaccinations. Many governments are in the same political bind and are pressured to do the wrong thing; which is to push vaccines.
If you’re scared of dying and you think the vaccine is going to prevent, then get vaccinated. If the vaccine works, then why I earth should I have to take it? Or my pregnant daughter or my little grand daughter? Why are you forcing it on them? To sooth your own ego?
Eric, you and your relatives need to be vaccinated to help produce herd immunity. Samoa is an instructive case study in what happens when vaccine deniers gain the upper hand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Samoa_measles_outbreak
“Experts” who don’t recommend vaccines, in my experience, tend to be axe grinders or publicity hounds with a product to sell. Luigi Warren is a case in point. Please highlight the part of his linked in biography (below) that conclusively demonstrates why his opinion should carry more weight than an uneducated teenager.
……….“I graduated with a Bachelors’ in EE/CS from University College London in 1982 and spent almost twenty years in software development roles, undertaking diverse projects encompassing scientific computing, film and television post-production, PC gaming, banking and securities trading, and social media applications. As an IT consultant my clients have included: IBM UK Science Center, Sony Pictures Imageworks, Industrial Light & Magic, Kronos Digital Entertainment, Activision, Synctrix, Cinema Graphics, Viewgraphics, Bank of New York-ESI Securities, Citibank, Salomon Smith Barney and theGlobe.com. I have held managerial as well as pure engineering positions in permanent and contract roles. Most of my coding experience has been in C/C++ on Windows and Unix platforms. For several projects I developed real-time, embedded software to run on proprietary, high-performance hardware.
BIOTECHNOLOGY
I returned to academia to study Biology in the late 1990s, earning a BS from Columbia University in 2001 and a PhD from Caltech in 2008. I invented an important new technology for “reprogramming” ordinary cells into stem cells during a postdoc at Harvard Medical School. This work was named one of the top ten scientific breakthroughs of 2010 by the journal Science, and one of the top ten medical breakthroughs of the year by TIME magazine. My work since then has focused on advancing commercial applications of the underlying technology (“mRNA reprogramming”). I have undertaken projects as a consulting scientist at Stemgent, Allele Biotechnology, Fluidigm and Arcturus Therapeutics. More recently I have owned and operated two small businesses which have produced hundreds of induced pluripotent stem cell lines for clients in academia and industry on a fee-for-service basis.“
Walrus,
Rubbish.
If my natural immune system fights off the virus, like that of 99% of those who contract it, then I am contributing as much to herd immunity same as if I had the vaccine.
The virus will mutate anyhow. How many ever newer/more modified vaccines are you going to take in your desperation to prolong an already long life? How many costs and damaged individuals are worth the risk for your sake?
You don’t seem to understand how the vaccine works. In your own words, it is training the immune system to fight off the virus. What difference does it make to your precious life if my immune system fights it off with or without performance enhancers?
You still refuse to address the question of why pregnant women and children should take the vaccine.
By the way, I notice another rhetorical trick of your crowd is to conflate a negative view of covid vaccines with a negative view of all vaccines. For the record, I am absolutely an advocate for the typical time proven vaccines that most all children in the modern world receive. I think the flu vaccine is worthless. I am completely opposed to the covid vaccine except for the elderly and those with seriously compromised immune systems. It is not at all like the usual childhood vaccines and I wish people would stop pretending it is.
The lives saved versus lives lost assessment is the wrong metric. It is years and quality of life that counts. It is fair to argue that 50 seniors in bad health ultimately succumbing to covid < a single 12 year old or fetus succumbing to the vaccine.
Eric
Labeling those questioning why an unapproved and actually unproven (considering the latest data from Israel) experimental vaccine should be forced on the population at large as vaccine deniers is the classic rhetorical trick of not focusing on the argument but impugning the character of their debate opponents.
IMO, most people questioning the covid jab as subscription model with endless boosters are fully immunized with all approved vaccines. They are a far stretch from vaccine deniers.
walrus,
You think Luigi Warren is a conspiracy theorist and a vaccine denier? Here’s the paper he wrote with Derrick Rossi that became the basis for Moderna.
“Highly Efficient Reprogramming to Pluripotency and Directed Differentiation of Human Cells with Synthetic Modified mRNA”: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1934590910004340
This is what he had to say about the covid vaccines:
https://twitter.com/luigi_warren/status/1412435221161463808?s=21
Why is anyone who questions the safety of these experimental vaccines a vaccine denier? Me thinks the vaccine promoters protest too much!!
Sam, is he an expert on ADE? No. Is he an expert on side effects? No.Is he an expert on Virii? No. Public health? Nope.
walrus
Luigi Warren knows more about mRNA than most teenagers including you :-).
It’s his scientific innovation along with Rossi that created the basis for Moderna. Rossi has credited him with spearheading the innovation. A Caltech Ph.D in Biology and knowledge of Computer Science is no slouch.
Just because he doesn’t agree with your Vaccine Uber Alles stance doesn’t make him a dunderhead!
Open VAERS simply takes the information from the CDC VAERS Wonder Database reporting vaccine reactions and makes them accessible to the public.
If you think they are a conspiracy site then by logic you consider the CDC VAERS vaccine reaction database a conspiracy site.
Sort of damning for a Public Health Agency would you not say? The CDC developed the reporting system. Nobody is stopping them from lobbying Congress to change the law and develop a more comprehensive vaccine reaction system?
“The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is preparing take-home cards that tell vaccine recipients how to report any suspected side effects to the nation’s Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting system.”
Why was the VAERS reporting system good enough for the 2009 Flu vaccine when they worried about side effects for the 2009 H1N1 strain vaccine but is not good enough for the Covid-19 pandemic?
https://www.wthr.com/article/news/local/intense-tracking-h1n1-flu-shots-side-effects/531-e21b048f-cb5c-49e3-b987-15c23c0bbaeb
Open Vaers is used by anti vaxxers to terrify the public.
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking-health/dont-fall-vaers-scare-tactic
…..” It is, of course, possible that a particular adverse event is actually an adverse reaction, meaning that it was indeed caused by the vaccine, but being able to correctly point your finger at the jab is more complicated than it looks. A team working at the CDC reported back in 1994, a few years after VAERS had been instated, that the reports submitted to its system usually contained less than a quarter of the information necessary to make an expert assessment of what caused this adverse event. The information submitted can also be inaccurate: indeed, anyone, including non-healthcare professionals, can submit a report to VAERS. This can be seen as both a strength, for casting a wider net, and a weakness, for allowing unverified information to be filed.
It has by now been said a thousand times, but it bears repeating a thousand more: correlation does not necessarily imply causation. Just because an undesirable event happens after receiving a vaccine does not automatically imply that the vaccine is responsible. The experts who keep track of the adverse events reported to VAERS have to contextualize the numbers they see and look for clues. Are they seeing reports of a highly specific set of signs and symptoms—a syndrome—linked to a particular vaccine? The peculiar type of blood clot associated with low platelets that was tied to AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine is an example of a very specific event, and it makes the attribution of causation easier. (For a good summary of what this risk means to Canadians, see this article.)
Another indicator of causality is to compare how common the adverse event is in the vaccinated population to its frequency in an unvaccinated population. This is not a comparison that is directly available when consulting VAERS. Without this comparison, fear can easily take hold. For example, during the 2015 measles outbreak in the United States, a blogger looking at data from VAERS claimed that the vaccine against measles had directly killed over 100 people in the previous decade. When the evidence was looked at by experts, it turned out this was not true. Many of the filed reports of children who had died after receiving the measles vaccine were for children who had had a serious medical condition to begin with or who had died of sudden infant death syndrome. The most common causes of death in VAERS were consistent with the leading causes of death in the American population.
Scrolling through a VAERS data set does not allow us to conclude anything; VAERS can be used to generate hypotheses but not to test them directly.
It’s not how big your tool is, it’s how you use it
To show that VAERS listings should not be taken at face value to mean that the vaccine caused the reported event, I trawled through the database’s reports on the COVID-19 vaccines. There were many, many reports of fever and injection site reactions (to be expected), but there were also, shall we say, head-scratching reports. A woman reported a large bald spot on top of her head following vaccination. Someone simply wrote in, “Nosebleed.” I saw a report of “anal leakage.” More than one person complained of suddenly becoming impotent. Meanwhile, at the other end of the spectrum, the funniest report I saw stated, “My penis swelled to ten times its size.”
It is easy for an anti-vaccine activist—someone who is categorically opposed to vaccines and who sees themselves as a hero saving humanity from a costly mistake—to simply cherry-pick scary VAERS reports and present them as proof that a vaccine is known to cause serious harm and death, a tactic we could call “VAERS scare.” VAERS, when utilized in the right way by the right people, can be a fantastic early warning system to detect vaccine adverse reactions, especially those that were too rare to be detected in the clinical trials that preceded approval of the vaccine.
It is a tool and like any tool it can unfortunately be misused.
Note: in Canada, the way to report an adverse event following vaccination is to ask your doctor, nurse, or pharmacist to complete the Adverse Events Following Immunization form. Details can be found here.
Take-home message:
-VAERS is an American reporting system to keep track of unfavourable or unintended events that take place after vaccination, like a fever or a rash, and that may (or may not) have been caused by the vaccine
-Anti-vaxxers routinely publicize reports from VAERS as if they are proof that a vaccine is causing clear harm
-On its own, VAERS cannot be used to conclude anything, but it can tip off experts that a particular safety signal might be real and deserves to be further studied.”
Walrus,
You replied “correlation does not necessarily imply causation”. It doesn’t eliminate it either as you imply.
You never addressed my question
“The CDC developed the reporting system. Nobody is stopping them from lobbying Congress to change the law and develop a more comprehensive vaccine reaction system?”
You also commented
” A woman reported a large bald spot on top of her head following vaccination. Someone simply wrote in, “Nosebleed.'” I saw a report of “anal leakage.” ”
You are the King of Strawman arguments. I’ll give you that. I was referring to the 9,048 reported deaths on VAERS, not “anal leakage”. Ridiculous.
I knew you would respond. So I held back some information. During the 2009 H1N1 scare CDC and the FDA partnered with large insurance companies to link their databases with vaccination registries around the country for real-time checks of whether people see a doctor in the weeks after a flu shot and why. The system was setup. And they decided not to use it for the C-19 vaccine. Why?
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna33045346
I’m not anti-vax. If I get bit by a rabid animal then nothing is going to stop me from getting the rabies vaccine. Risk/Benefit.
Also, if you are older than 50 then it may be a good idea to get the vaccine. Over 70 definitely in my opinion. Over 60 probably. But these are personal decisions and not to be coerced by the government.
However, I’m not a vaccine fanatic like you. I believe it is bordering on criminal to vaccinate healthy individuals younger than 18.
Any elderly he wants the youth to get vaccinated just to save their hide I can’t respect.
In addition you stated
“-On its own, VAERS cannot be used to conclude anything, but it can tip off experts that a particular safety signal might be real and deserves to be further studied.”
Wouldn’t you agree maybe 9,048 deaths reported for the C-19 vaccine compared to 202 for all vaccines in 2019 is a signal?
And do you actually believe that the Public Health authorities can admit a mistake at this point in the game? Naïve in my opinion.
Last
I never said every VAERS report for death was accurate. Certainly there are duplicates and simple correlations. There are also the possibility of deaths due to the vaccine not reported. Especially from families who are vaccine fanatics. But you are wrong. Many of the reports are filled out by Physicians.
Walrus – “Note: in Canada, the way to report an adverse event following vaccination is to ask your doctor, nurse, or pharmacist to complete the Adverse Events Following Immunization form. Details can be found here.”
Nope! Hailing from Toronto/ Ontario. They keep you 15 minutes on site after your vaccination, and then if you didn’t make a “show” of sudden adverse effects, they send you home.
You didn’t supply a link to the Canadian “Adverse Events Following Immunization” form. FYI, I was not ever given such a form and am not aware it exists. At my first dose I was shocked that none of the paper advice I was served with didn’t point me to where I can report side effects. Guess what? When I went for my 2nd dose they asked me if I fainted or threw up, or anaphylactic shock after my 1st dose. Nope, I didn’t have these. That was all I was asked. I was not served with “Adverse Events Following Immunization” form to report anywhere any side effects. I only got a receipt “You got 2 doses of a valid vaccine”
Moreover, all I was asked to consent for is that my info (address, phone and health card number) can/ will be shared with “interested” institutions.
So, I am vaccinated cattle; I am the research data without being afforded a (biased) self-reporting adverse effects, while I am also refused trips to the hospital for tests and/or surgery because we keep hospitals empty just in case, to take potential covid patients in…
walrus
Do you not agree that mistrust in government institutions is accelerating because of the government’s own “meta message”. This message emanates from the following non exhaustive list:-
– the example of utter disdain for Constitutional rights I cited above
– a program of door to door pressure selling of an untested medical treatment
– the demonization of a whole section of the electorate following 1/6
– the toleration of Orwellian levels of censorship in social media
– the FBI’s latest role (in concert with Facebook) as the Stasi
– Marxist CRT indoctrination now being mandated though the state education system
– I could go on, and on
Yes, business confidence is vital for capital formation, but I fear we may have profoundly different priorities. I may be misreading yours, but your last paragraph reads like the kind of statement that prompted Brecht to pen Die Lösung. Well I am very sorry if my own “meta message” damages business confidence. Fighting for liberties tends to do that in the short term.
As for a world conspiracy, I do not think the WEF’s agenda fits that description, largely because they are quite open about wanting to impose Neo-feudal serfdom upon us all. I made it clear above that my personal stance (I am not part of a movement) is a defense of bodily sovereignty. Mock this all you like, but I reserve the right to make my own judgements re risk and respect other people’s right to do the same, “vaccine denial” is just name calling.
Barbara Ann,
It is surprising that TRUST in institutions is so high considering what has transpired and for how many decades.
We had the Church commission in the mid-70s. And what an eye-opener that was. Which American expected that their intelligence agencies would conduct medical experiments on unsuspecting citizens? And collude with media to feed disinformation?
There was the Pentagon Papers. Snowden. The Iraq WMD hoax. The Russia Collusion hoax. FISA abuse. The Wall St bailouts and no one prosecuted. Prosecutorial misconduct from the days of Edgar Hoover. Framing of innocent citizens.
IMO, it would not be out of the ordinary that any rational American would start with the premise that their government, corporate media and big business corporations lie as a matter of routine.
Why should any American trust Fauci, when he has not been forthcoming on his potential direct role in creating the pandemic but even worse orchestrating the silencing of dissent and the labeling of those that criticize him as being anti-science?
I have pondered this same question and come to the conclusion that the answer lies in the evolutionary value of trust. You, I and most frequenters of this blog are unusual. The majority of folk are happy to trust that the government has their best interests are heart and always will have. This is an enormous convenience, as it allows one to get on with the business of one’s life without expending valuable resources worrying about weighty questions like liberty, tyranny and so on.
The convenience barrier is very high. History tells us that when trust runs out for some they are already in the cattle cars on the way to the Gulag, or worse. On the flip side, worrying about this stuff 24/7 is unhealthy and pretty much guaranteed to make you unappealing to the opposite sex.
I think this provides a good opportunity to thank our host for providing such a fine outlet for those afflicted with trust deficit syndrome.
🙂
I always like what you say, Barbara Ann.
The evolutionary value of trust ,and its downside, is a great concept
Barbara Ann,
“The majority of folk are happy to trust that the government has their best interests are heart and always will have. This is an enormous convenience,..”
I think you are on to something here. It would be interesting to study how people have been enslaved and how authoritarianism gains credence with the acquiescence of the majority.
IMO, what we know just in the last 50 years is that the American people have acquiesced to growing and now even overt authoritarianism. The judiciary has not been the bulwark as designed as they too are subject to the prevailing orthodoxy. And as the saying goes liberties taken away are never returned. This idea that every man has certain inalienable rights endowed by their Creator is gone as no one wants to defend that. It only exists in rhetoric and text books.
It is surprising that TRUST in institutions is so high considering what has transpired and for how many decades.
As far as I can tell, the American people do not trust American institutions.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/195542/americans-trust-mass-media-sinks-new-low.aspx
https://www.rt.com/usa/government-trust-americans-poll-172/
I think that if one were only to read this site, one might get a false impression that most Americans trust their institutions.
In my estimation, the commenters of this site who speak honestly of their trust in institutions are not a representative sample of the population. It seems to me that if we could somehow get a representative sample, they would indignantly denounce various known crimes of the established institutions. Whenever I submit a comment to this site, I take several minutes to try to calm down and rephrase my thoughts in the blandest possible language, because I fear that if I were to voice my indignation openly, our host would rebuke me for unseemly language.
longarch
I am not the government.
Barbara, Yes.
‘
The saddest part is that the process is aided and abetted by the media and Australia has a special responsibility for that.
The thing is that many of us accused and labeled now as “vaccine denial” or anti-vaccines have all vaccibes on national calendar, plus a few rare others out of our travels, but these are vaccines who have undergo the appropiate and long enough tests to asure their safety and not cause more harm than benefit.
Macron has just adressed the nation stating vaccines will be mandatory for health workers in France and everybody will need a negative test to enter public facilities, test that will end being for free frok now on, and, in passing, has announced the pension reform he was not able to impose on the French people because of massive protests by public worker of all professions which were precisely stopped by the pandemic..
This pandemic seems to have been way too functional to impose cuts of rights which otherwise would had been strongly contested in the streets…
In Spain a new national security law is being prepared under which you could be recruited to work without retribution!!! They are not talking about war, precisely….
What keeps them from inveting a strain after another, each one more dangerous and transmisible, allegedly, while half the hospital beds have been closed for the summer season and half the staff is on vacation, thus demonstrating there is no such emergency as they claim through their media?
Christine Lagarde has advised the governemtns of those countries veru indebted to requisition families´savings and priavte pension funds…
That they are preparing an slavization process and for this they need to inyect us with meds so as we are not able to resist and rebel, is an understatement.
The mass vaccination with mRNA vaccines has nothing to do with health, but with control and enslavement. The shots will be undending, as the third shot in a year by Pfizer has been already anounced and asked for permission to the governments…
Like will happen with the PCR tests in France, wait for these mandatory vaccines to end being for free and for their price to scalate as a comodity to be “free”…
I guess you are aware of what is happening in Cuba right now, right? Well, as analyst, you would be wondering why now, why this, why in this form?
Well, I´ll tell you, Cuba has rejected being part of the Covax fund….After all they have their own vaccines..do not need to pay loads of money for others…as we are doing the rest, except the Russians and Chinese, who also have their own vaccines.
Another one who refused lockdown of his country in exchange of a FMI loan, Lukashenko, also suffered a color evolution…
This is a new way of extortion. Those who do not have their vaccines have to pay…This is why no other vaccines than the Western ones are allowed into the EU, for example, when these days most known medical publications are asuring the Russian one is the safest and most effective even against all the new variants…
Yet our governments are not allowed to bring in these vaccines which will end the pandemic asap…
Who of those in the business would want to end this “pandemic”? I put my hand in the fire that they have not been vaccinated with these “products”…
“Biden allied groups, including the Democratic National Committee, are also planning to engage fact-checkers more aggressively and work with SMS carriers to dispel misinformation about vaccines that is sent over social media and text messages”
Another one for my list. Now your text messages will be “fact-checked” for Vax “misinformation”. I guess we can shortly expect texts expressing thoughtcrime to carry an appropriate correction issued by the Minitrue (the DNC?) or to disappear altogether.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/12/biden-covid-vaccination-campaign-499278
Is it time to move Nineteen Eighty-Four to the non-fiction section yet?
“Peter Daszak, of EcoHealth Alliance, reported in a National Academies Press publication February 12, 2016: “We need to increase public understanding of the need for medical countermeasures such as a pan-coronavirus vaccine. A key driver is the media and the economics will follow the hype. We need to use that hype to our advantage to get to the real issues. Investors will respond if they see profit at the end of the process.”
Seems to me that two shots making somebody deathly sick is like two strikes, the third strike might be lethal.
“On June 5, 2008 – which was around the time that DARPA took an active interest in coronavirus as a biological weapon – Ablynx, now part of Sanofi, filed a series of patents targeting what we’ve been told are novel features of SARS-CoV-2. They targeted the polybasic cleavage site for SARS-CoV, the novel spike protein and the ACE-2 receptor binding domain. These are allegedly novel to SARS-CoV-2, and all of these were patented on June 5, 2008. The patents were issued November 24, 2015 (US patent 9193780; this came out after the moratorium on gain-of-function research, after the MERS outbreak in the Middle East), followed in 2016, 2017, 2019 by a series of patents covering not only RNA strands but also sub-components of gene strands, all issued to Ablynx and Sanofi.
Crucell, Rubius Therapeutics, Children’s Medical Corporation, and numerous others including Ludwig Maximilian’s Universität in Munich, Protein Science Corporation, Dana Farber Cancer Institute, University of Iowa, University of Hong Kong, Chinese National Human Genome Center in Shanghai, all identified, in patent filings ranging from 2008 to 2017, every attribute that was allegedly uniquely published by the single reference publication “The Novel Bat Coronavirus”, the paper that has been routinely used to identify the novel virus.
73 patents issued between 2008 and 2019 have the elements that were allegedly novel in SARS-CoV-2. Specifically the polybasic cleavage site, the ACE-2 receptor binding domain and the spike protein.”
Walrus
“We’re the government, and we’re here to help.”
C’mon man….really? Government is here to help us with what exactly?
You’re a funny guy for sure…next thing you’ll start saying Rachel Madcow has valid points…
For the greater good, or to quote Justice Holmes, “Three generations of imbeciles are enough.” Holmes wrote the 8–1 majority opinion in Buck v. Bell (1927) a case that upheld the Virginia Sterilization Act of 1924 and the forced sterilization of Carrie Buck who was claimed to be mentally defective. I know someone who was forcibly sterilized in the ’50s by the State of Florida for similar reasons. Forced vaccinations, for the ‘greater good’, that’s child’s play to the leftists now in power.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/274/200/#207
Reading not a few mentions of ‘testing for the presence of Covid’ here I thought to perhaps just throw this into the mix:
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210705-how-children-are-spoofing-covid-19-tests-with-soft-drinks
(Yes I realize – BBC)
I guess we can agree that Darwin will sort out who was right – the vaccinated or unvaccinated.
Exactly, it is even the Darwin Awards Olympiads with a LOT of prizes.
One more reason to let everyone make their own choice.
Sadly, neither group should have to suffer, we do know Ivermectin works and is being used successfully in several countried. I say sadly as it’s being repressed in most countries.
we don’t know Ivermectin works. All authorities state that the jury is out and more rigorous tests are needed. We can probably say Ivermectin doesn’t make the disease worse.
……….but of course these authorities are part of the worldwide conspiracy, aren’t they?
It is important to know what VAERS actually is and what it can tell us. From its own FAQ:
https://vaers.hhs.gov/faq.html#collapse16
“What are the strengths and limitations of VAERS?
One of the main limitations of VAERS data is that it cannot determine if the vaccine caused the reported adverse event. This limitation has caused confusion in the publicly available data from VAERS WONDER, specifically regarding the number of reported deaths. There have been instances where people have misinterpreted reports of deaths following vaccination as deaths caused by the vaccines; that is not accurate. VAERS accepts all reports of adverse health events following vaccinations without judging whether the vaccine caused the adverse health event. Some reports to VAERS represent true vaccine reactions and others are coincidental adverse health events and not related to vaccination. Overall, a causal relationship cannot be established using information from VAERS report alone.
Strengths of VAERS:
VAERS collects national data from all U.S. states and territories
VAERS accepts reports from anyone
The VAERS form collects information about the vaccine, the person vaccinated and the adverse event
Data are publicly available
VAERS can be used as an early warning system to identify rare adverse events
VAERS is a tool for identifying potential vaccine safety concerns that need further study using more robust data systems
Limitations of VAERS:
It is generally not possible to find out from VAERS data if a vaccine caused the adverse event
Reports submitted to VAERS often lack details and sometimes contains errors
Serious adverse events are more likely to be reported than non-serious events
Numbers of reports may increase in response to media attention and increased public awareness
VAERS data cannot be used to determine rates of adverse events”
Vaccinated people will still die from all things that kill people everyday, even a small number will still die from COVID-19 (close to 1k in the USA, IIRC), as the protection is not total.
Vaccines do not turn a person into an immortal and the early warning system of several countries are clearly being misused to scary people into not taking the vaccine, despite what health agencies like CDC and FDA say when they actually look into those reports.
Anyway, I am again with walrus on this. Darwin will sort this thing out, but I am sad for the people that can not actually use a vaccine. Those are screwed by the options made by those that can and do not, as herd immunity will come at a cost way higher than it could have been.
Alves
Do you know the details of the trials for the Pfizer, Moderna, J&J and the Astra Zeneca vaccines?
How many people, what was the demographic breakdown, what about the distribution of comorbidities among the trial participants? How does this trial compare with trials for other vaccines? How are they testing for safety, toxicology and dosage?
As we have seen before the FDA have approved drugs that had to be rescinded as they caused toxic side effects that were not discovered during the human trials or overlooked. So the process is not fallible. We also have the case of the 1976 swine flu mass vaccination debacle. Here we have a vaccine based on a brand new technology that has never been used before and that has yet to be approved by the FDA and so many clamoring that everyone get it and in some cases forcibly to maintain employment or travel. What’s up with that?
The UK, apparently, has its own version of VAERS and from the looking at it by some appreciable number of their experts there would appear to be a (I’m uncertain what the UK’s version of “Houston we have a problem” is, so I’ll leave it at that:
https://trialsitenews.com/look-into-uk-yellow-card-system-reveals-large-numbers-of-adverse-events-deaths-associated-with-covid-19-vaccine/
~ 40% only of the vaxing over there looks to be of the mRNA-based Pfizer vaccine.)
JK, I chased this one down the rabbit hole – and again, it’s BS.
the “concerns” are raised by one Tess Lawrie.
Here is what she wrote elsewhere.
‘ Dr. Lawrie called for reform of the method used to analyze scientific evidence.
She reported, “The story of Ivermectin has highlighted that we are at a remarkable juncture in medical history. The tools that we use to heal and our connection with our patients are being systematically undermined by relentless disinformation stemming from corporate greed. The story of Ivermectin shows that we as a public have misplaced our trust in the authorities and have underestimated the extent to which money and power corrupts.
Had Ivermectin being employed in 2020 when medical colleagues around the world first alerted the authorities to its efficacy, millions of lives could have been saved, and the pandemic with all its associated suffering and loss brought to a rapid and timely end.”
Dr. Lawrie called out the corruption of modern medicine by Big Pharma and other interests.
She went on, “Since then, hundreds of millions of people have been involved in the largest medical experiment in human history. Mass vaccination was an unproven novel therapy. Hundreds of billions will be made by Big Pharma and paid for by the public. With politicians and other nonmedical individuals dictating to us what we are allowed to prescribe to the ill, we as doctors, have been put in a position such that our ability to uphold the Hippocratic oath is under attack.
At this fateful juncture, we must therefore choose, will we continue to be held ransom by corrupt organizations, health authorities, Big Pharma, and billionaire sociopaths, or will we do our moral and professional duty to do no harm and always do the best for those in our care? The latter includes urgently reaching out to colleagues around the world to discuss which of our tried and tested safe older medicines can be used against COVID.”“
Hardly a disinterested opinion.
“Hardly a disinterested opinion.”
Fair enough Walrus. Care to point me to any person in authority who is presenting a, as you say “disinterested opinion”?
The closest person, in my opinion, would be that Dr. Robert Malone MD fellow who’s lately been seen fairly frequently on the WWW whom, if you’re unfamiliar with, can be viewed here:
https://trialsitenews.com/dr-robert-malone-inventor-of-mrna-technology-discusses-the-spike-protein-interview/
(Yes I’m aware of this link being on the other thread.)
But if, Walrus, you might point me toward any others who possess such credentials as Dr. Malone has I’d be grateful and will study what they have made available.
From James Kunstler’s latest column:
“A bunch of readers sent me a video on the Odysee platform that seems to have lit up the Internet over the weekend, a conversation between the international lawyer Reiner Fuellmich and a character named David Martin, PhD, CEO of M-Cam, a company that researches and advises on intellectual property and patents, especially in medicine. Dr. Martin is “a fellow” at the University of Virginia School of Business Administration and formerly an assistant professor at UVa’s School of Medicine. Mr. Fuellmich is a German national who claims to be bringing a case to the world court to prosecute various parties for hoaxing the world over the coronavirus we call Covid-19.
Mr. Fuellmich’s claim is based on the allegation that the world has been played by “a PCR test pandemic,” not by a novel coronavirus, saying that the PCR test is entirely unreliable, but was used to generate millions of “cases.” Dr. Martin claims that scores of patents were filed as far back as 2008 on features found in Covid 19 — the spike protein, the polybasic cleavage site, and the ace-2 receptor binding domain — by people doing “bioweapons” research at the University of North Carolina (e.g., Dr. Ralph Baric) as well as the US Military’s DARPA, the Wuhan, China, virology lab, and Dr. Anthony Fauci’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), much of it intermediated by Peter Daszak of the EcoHealth Alliance, and allegedly involving a criminal conspiracy with several pharmaceutical companies to make a lot of money off an engineered global health emergency. He claims further that the mRNA vaccines are “medical devices” designed to induce illness..”
https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/a-bodyguard-of-lies/
Perhaps some of the respondents can take time to actually address what the Walrus says and asks in his : July 12, 2021 at 3:01 pm comment. It appears that he and I are the only two folks here that want some responses that directly and specifically address the questions raised. In all the response subsequent there is not a single response that does this. Please refrain from ad hominem arguments. However I fully expect to not find that in response subsequent to this and mores the pity.
Bob
You’re just not getting the answer you want.
Why don’t you answer the question why are people being forced to take an experimental vaccine that has yet to be approved by FDA when the safety trials have not concluded?
And note that data out of Israel show that 40% of new cases are among the vaccinated, compared to just 1% among those who developed natural immunity through virus exposure. Implying the body’s natural immune response is substantially superior than this experimental vaccine you guys are pushing on everyone.
https://twitter.com/hashtagburton/status/1414708271881981956?s=21
Peter Daszak who laundered US taxpayer funds handed to him by Tony Fauci to the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
You should be asking what was going on there and why they put on the full court press to hide their involvement in creating the pandemic.
Sam,
Another denialist….
For the record – you charge “experimental”, “unapproved”. For a start, it’s the best we’ve got at the moment. You want certainty? Wait 80+ years until you have a database?
Of course to a vaccine deniers, no proof is ever enough.
Furthermore, science is NEVER certain. That was drummed into me at an early age. All we can say about ANY vaccine is that on the basis of available evidence, today, is that Covid vaccines are a better option for the community than no vaccine at all – and that is even with adverse events as we know them today.
However, that does not stop the denialist crowd. Remember that all vaccines are bad/don’t work/cause autism???
As for Israel’s data, I’m sure you are right – you can get the disease after vaccination, so what? You can still get Flu after vaccination. Indications are that the course of the disease is milder in vaccinated people.
Peter Daszak did not “launder money” that’s more BS. I suggest you read the emails yourself instead of making wild unfounded accusations or parroting those of others.
Yeah sure, it’s a worldwide conspiracy, etc, etc. Spare us.
walrus
“Another denialist….”. That’s all you got. Lol!
No. Don’t look at the data from Israel and Scotland. It may cause you severe cognitive dissonance.
As far as Dr. Peter Daszak is concerned. Yeah. He’s all kosher. Thanks for that update. Says more about you.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9649259/Doctor-warned-pandemic-coming-slammed-having-conflict-interest.html
Have you read all the emails or just hand waving as you have no “science” or factual arguments?
https://usrtk.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Baric_Daszak_email.pdf
Yeah. A humble upstanding man working hard for humanity. Deviousness??
https://usrtk.org/biohazards-blog/scientists-masked-involvement-in-lancet-letter-on-covid-origin/
Note that commenter “Walrus” said in a previous thread “not that I’m aware of ” when
mention was made of the so-called Covid
“vaccines” being *urged on* for use in pregnant
women and children.. then disappeared from the thread when CDC / NIH / Mayo Clinic links were provided.
Said “vaccines” are now being tested on infants
as young as six months (link on request).
“Another denialist….”. That’s all you got. Lol!
Sam: I’m guessing that commenter- when it comes
to COVID, at least- is Sponsored Content (if you will). That’s all they’ve got..
Bernays, Goebbels, and Ellul were right, though:
if propaganda (in this case pro-untested-“vaccine”
propaganda) is persistent enough and pervasive
enough, it will eventually be internalized by most.
Not this kid (age 62), though.
https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/vaccines-reasons-for-concern-part
Vaccine as subscription model in the near horizon as Pfizer and Moderna request emergency use authorization for booster citing Delta variant.
Sam, Yes! Israel is a disaster for vaccination advocates!
Approximately 5.7 million Israelis fully vaccinated and the horrendous number of hospital severe cases is ……46! What a disaster! Not. Apparently half of those cases are vaccinated but immuno compromised so the vaccine “failure rate” is infinitesimally small.
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/middle-east/article/3140698/amid-delta-variant-surge-israel-offer-pfizer-covid-19
Your second reference is to a denialist website: “unreported truths” which is full of truth, alas for me!
So I looked up the british medical journal:….
…” According to the agency’s latest variant technical briefing,3 as of 14 June a total of 806 people had been admitted to hospital with the delta variant of the virus—an increase of 423 since last week. Among these cases, 527 people were unvaccinated and only 84 of the 806 had received both doses.”
Another disaster! Out of 34.8 million vaccinated people, we have 84 people who had two doses and still caught a bad case of covid delta – if that is failure, give me more!
https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1596
A question for my good friend Walrus:
You often use the word “denialist” here.
Please give your definition of “denialist” in the present context, so we can all be the wiser.. without *clear definition of terms* there can be no informed conversation. Thank you.
Ahoy Walrus
Yesterday I “enjoyed” an appointment with a civilian urologist I’d been needing to see since the BC years (before Covid) with a followup today with my C-BOC primary – all that foundation laid I’ve presently got before me my vaccination[s] records dating back to 2001. As my Dad was a physician (med-school class of ’58 following his WWII & Korean service) so you can be reasonably sure I likewise “enjoyed” a whole bunch of vaccinations, number unknown but to God.
I do recall Dad’s administering me an eight years long regimen of twice per week allergy shots too but I can’t be bothered to calculate how many those would’ve been. But by my attaining age 15 those shots had “done the magic” sufficient that two years later I would be able to enlist. (Dad died in ’95.)
But anyway I’ll cut to the chase – since 2001 I received in excess of 50 vaccinations. Some being a series such as was the case for the Hep B vaccine ca 2001 and a number of MMRs when I was more frequently in the vicinity of students.
Admittedly none of those were administered under the auspices of an Emergency Use Authorization &, so far as I’m aware none of the manufacturers enjoyed Exemption From Liability.
Back in 2012 in addition to my life-long asthma I’ve developed both COPD and emphysema so as you might imagine I’ve made getting a flu shot ritual. VA’s got me listed 100% disabled but I feel it necessary to include non-service-connected.
At any rate Walrus all that I’ve now typed is to humbly ask that, as you’re going about typing “Vaccine deniers!” “Anti-vaxxers!” Please don’t lump me in with those er, “loons”?
I will add that I’m under some *pressure from my VA primary to “get the jab” but unfortunately for him he recalls telling me – back before the vaccines became available – “You have the antibody JK, and you seemed to have cleared the active infection so really, that’s about as good as it gets.”
(Plus he’s aware I have some biochemistry credits in my student records. I really think our *argument today was just “going through the motions.”)
Before I forget – did you have the time to watch the Dr. Malone interview? Oh and please, be so kind as to not label me a “vaccine denier.”
…
Before anybody says “Oh you poor dear you’re sure to die of the Delta” – the standard of care in hospitals across northern Arkansas and southern Missouri is 02 cannula, an anticoagulant, and when the administrators approve it – an inhaled corticosteroid. Which I’ve been prescribed since 2012.
(Now I will admit I blew through a ‘supposed to be a 90 day one’ in 40 days back late February early March 2020.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02SNJNxhhSg
My Dear JK, I apologise for calling you a denialist. I should perhaps label you as “complacent”, although labels are. unfair.
Yes, the standard of treatment in your state and region, oxygen, anticoagulant and steroid is assuredly most effective and you should put your mind at rest, except for one thing……
What if a significant number of people decide to eschew vaccination, then get sick of Covid at such a rate that your ICU’S are overwhelmed? No oxygen for you? No nurse? No steroids? What then?
Ahhh! You say, the bulk of the population will be vaccinated so it won’t happen!
…….Which begs the question; assuming the vaccine is efficacious, why are you shirking your duty to your fellow citizens by requiring them potentially having to come to your aid instead of protecting yourself, when such protection is a quick jab of a needle?
“why are you shirking your duty to your fellow citizens?”
Now we have reached the heart of the matter. Such arguments underpin every malignant political philosophy based on Utilitarianism. They justify the state mandating anything it likes for the sake of the Greater Good. The moment you subordinate the principal of the supremacy of human agency to such abstract concepts you are on the road to Hell.
“why are you shirking your duty to your fellow citizens”
Yes, why indeed. If this vaccine were a children’s toy it would already be banned because of the number of children it has injured and killed. Think for your duty to the children!
https://www.cpsc.gov/zhT-CN/node/21439
What Barbara Ann said.
Barbara Ann
This is precisely the intent. Digital passports first for vaccine compliance as we need to “bend the curve”, then as national ID card, then add in social credit score.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/13/vaccine-passport-firm-says-system-could-redeployed-national/
Dissent to the Overlords cannot be tolerated under any circumstance.
Why be injected with a substance that has had no long-term testing, when it
does not confer immunity; does not stop transmission to others; and is only
claimed by the makers to reduce some symptoms? Especially considering
that unless you’re 70+ with multiple co-morbidities, you’re about as statistically likely to die from being struck by lightning?
Who benefits from the barely-tested “jabs”? Not their intended targets, that is for sure.. Big Pharma (indemnified for vaxx liabilities) is doing great, though.
Carey,
The usual testing for a new vaccine takes years. Considering the situation, and the results of the early trials, Trump’s decision to go with emergency authorization makes sense.
It’s wrong to think of immunity and symptoms as binary. The way vaccines work doesn’t preclude minor infections which can be completely harmless and asymptomatic but for a short time a vaccinated person can spread the disease. Abating symptoms, particularly life-threatening symptoms, can’t be dismissed as insignificant. Would it make sense to not vaccinate people until something was developed which gave assured immunity, utterly stops the spread and all symptoms and had passed years-long trials which showed no side effects for anybody when the ERs are overloaded with patients? Binary thinking is not always the way to go.
> The usual testing for a new vaccine takes years. Considering the situation <
We need to come to a mutual understanding on this:
how do you see "the situation"?
Thank you.
The perceived situation in many places around the world was concerning. Trump launched “Warp Speed” in response. He saw for himself what was happening in a hospital in Queens, IIRC. Bodies piling up, ER staffs saying they were overwhelmed and such.
> when the ERs are overloaded with patients? <
Much of my comment seems to have disappeared, but:
Where are these EDs overloaded with patients; and
have readily available non-patented measures like ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine,
Vit D, Vit C, and zinc been tried on them?
No: those remedies are deeply discounted by the "vaccine"
pushers: no money to be be made from them, or control
to be had thus.
Those who accept the covid "vaccine" may be inadvertently signing up for a lifetime of "boosters™", "updates™", and the like; sold to you by entities like the well-spoken [and well-funded?] ones above.
"No, you can't go to work until you've had Thursday's update v 2.7.3mr -dose. So sorry!"
Sounds great, no?
I'll stick with a close-to-nature life, thanks.
The raspberry bushes are taking off, and the birds are singing beautifully. Pass on the techno-bullsh!t..
Carey
“Much of my comment seems to have disappeared” Bullshit. I removed nothing.
“Mark Logan” said:
“It’s wrong to think of immunity and symptoms as binary.”
Thanks for that information on wrong thinking, ML; I was new to that concept.
“Mark Logan” said:
“Would it make sense to not vaccinate people until something was developed which gave assured immunity..”
Only if we were seeing mass-die-offs in the present, and had a vaccine that had significant
testing behind it, to preclude *back-loaded deaths*
caused by your “vaccines”. Neither of those conditions are fulfilled, so my answer is no.
But none of this is about facts: it’s about imposed power.
Carey, drug addicts and thrill seekers inject untested junk every day. Travel to exotic locations and a variety of quite frightful insects, reptiles and fish will also inject you with any number of exotic untested cocktails without your permission.
The vaccines have been through phase I, II and III trials sufficient to convince authorities, but by definition you are talking malarkey;
exactly what do you think constitutes long term testing? Do you think we put the vaccine in a bottle on the shelf and stare at it for twenty years?
Do you think “long term testing” means vaccinating poor third world brown people for a while before injecting Americans? I once had a Professor who suggested we try our experimental AIDS vaccine on black Africans before doing “real” tests – he had the contacts to arrange it. He gave up the idea after I stared at him for a full minute.
Colonel Lang: I made no claim that you removed any portion of my comment.
“seems to have disappeared” assigns no agency.
Heh Carey,
Agency Schmageny.
On a more recent post I placed on Col Lang’s plate (different topic) a *distinctly recalled* phrasing near where I’d placed the word “precarious” turned out to be a failure on my part to have sufficiently proofed my self-edited comment.
I was the agent of that comment. I was the agent of the editing. I was the agent responsible for clicking on “Post Comment.”
Reviewing prior to having one’s comment approved can be a … well you hopefully know. I acknowledge twice recently whispering to myself “Oh … [heck].”
Making The Case For Covid Challenges – [the excellent] Jonathan Turley:
https://jonathanturley.org/2021/07/13/it-needs-to-be-hard-for-people-to-remain-unvaccinated-making-the-case-for-covid-challenges/
“Spain’s Constitutional Court ruled Wednesday that a strict stay-at-home lockdown order the Spanish government issued under a state of emergency during the first wave of COVID-19 last year was unconstitutional.”
https://apnews.com/article/europe-business-health-government-and-politics-courts-a0a36ebadb24600e122e2f1fb035011c
Our court is made up of cowards who hid behind “it’s health related so it’s ok” as an excuse.
An excerpt regarding Spanish Flu from the CDC- 675,000 citizens of the USA died while 50 million worldwide died.
Quote-With no vaccine to protect against influenza infection and no antibiotics to treat secondary bacterial infections that can be associated with influenza infections, control efforts worldwide were limited to non-pharmaceutical interventions such as isolation, quarantine, good personal hygiene, use of disinfectants, and limitations of public gatherings, which were applied unevenly-unquote
Obviously we have come along way over the past 100 years. Presently we are at 623,000 US citizens and 4 million worldwide that have passed on due to Covd-19.
While I and my family over 25 have all received two doses of the mRNA supposed vaccine I still believe it is criminal to encourage the under 25 crowd without disabling illnesses to receive the vaccine as the data to date does not warrant taking that supposed vaccine. Unfortunately due to the pressures exhibited by colleges, government and peers my grandchildren have succumbed and became vaccinated as they had no desire to become second class citizens.
We will belatedly regret those pressures put on our children in the future.
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/bacterial-pneumonia-caused-most-deaths-1918-influenza-pandemic
https://twitter.com/reuters/status/1415410799280013313?s=21
https://twitter.com/laurentbigfr/status/1415302041446977541?s=21
As the subscription model gets rolled out and made de facto mandatory due to the declining half-life of efficacy and the poor efficacy to variants and god forbid a breakthrough mutant that requires even more boosters, while Big Pharma keeps raising prices, the current protests may snowball into something that requires serious overt repression.
This is walrus’ upstanding scientist.
https://twitter.com/theseeker268/status/1415676833094258694?s=21
How many viruses did Daszak and party engineer? Where are these viruses stored? At the Wuhan Institute of Virology? In Fauci’s secret freezer? Why are there no transparent investigations?
Sam, with respect are you a virologist? Virii are not “alive” they require host cells to reproduce. Such research can be done by taking the portion of the virus you with to study and inflicting it on a host cell that is not even human.
Mechanical equivalent: putting a tank engine on a dynamometer stand for testing is not the same as building an armored tank.
I don’t believe that anything wuhan created in their labs were capable of infecting a human.
Walrus,
How did you come to that conclusion about the Wigan lab?
walrus, since you claim to be an expert virologist would you please explain to us the following:
– furin cleavage site
– arginine codon
– gain of function
If you look around the internet you will find both Peter Daszak and Ralph Baric on video discuss manipulating coronavirus in a lab to make them attach to human cells. That’s precisely the research that was outsourced to the Wuhan Institute of Virology by Daszak from money he received from Fauci and then tried to hide by bullying other researchers to sign a letter he drafted that was published in the Lancet stating that anyone suggesting a lab leak is a conspiracy theorist. Kinda like you, attempting to discredit the person when you don’t have the argument.
You may also want to read these two articles.
https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-the-clues-6f03564c038
https://www.theweek.in/theweek/cover/2021/07/01/what-exactly-happened-in-wuhan.html
From JH Kunstler’s latest:
“Edging now into high summer, the “Joe Biden” apparatus swerves toward the totalitarian seizure of all communications. A White House equerry name of Jeff Zients with the awesome title Covid Response Coordinator called on “Biden allied groups” (DNC? NSA? AFT? CCP?) to monitor Short Message Services (SMS, i.e., texts) on cell phones in search of “disinformation being spread about vaccinations”… Surgeon General Vivek Murthy asked social media to “step up” to address “false claims feeding vaccine resistance”… White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki let slip that “We’re flagging problematic posts for Facebook that spread disinformation”….
America is oh so problematic! You people are working a little too hard to think for yourselves — you basket of deplorable, brain-damaged, flyover gorks — so pardon us while we remove your impure thoughts from the nation’s thought-spaces. We will do your thinking for you, because 1) we know better, and 2) we say so…. ”
https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/enemies-of-the-people/
That second para sounds like [just] a couple here..