There are a lot of rumors afloat about atrocities in the present Gaza crisis. I am compiling a list of supposed atrocities by either side. If you have anything on this. Send it to me. The usual SST rules apply. There must be real evidence. pl
RSS- Mick Ryan on the coming Ukrainian offensive – TTG
- “It’s 7 a.m. in Tel Aviv after a night of protests. Here’s what you need to know about Israel’s political crisis” – TTG
- Russia to base nuclear warheads in Belarus… so what? – TTG
- “Drone strike kills US contractor in Syria; US retaliates” – TTG
- “Ukrainian troops impress US trainers as they rapidly get up to speed on Patriot missile system” – TTG
- “Russia hauls 1950s-era tanks out of storage to join battlefield” – TTG
- “Terran 1 | Good Luck, Have Fun” – TTG
- ISW take on the Xi – Putin meeting – TTG
- Russian defensive lines: screwing the pooch once again – TTG
- “ICC issues arrest warrant for Putin over Ukraine war crimes” – TTG
Pat — what’s the working definition of “attrocity” in this context? (Happy new year by the way).
Dan M
Deliberate killing, mutilation, or abuse of non-combatants. pl
Here’s a post from an Israeli human rights org. with lots of details:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10144.shtml
I appreciate your blog very much. Thank you for your efforts.
Your contacts should be able to help you clarify this. The Zaitoun affair: Ordering the clan to assemble at the house. Presumably preventing their flight. Shelling the house. Sixty of seventy dead from blast and ‘falling masonry.’ Preventing medical treatment or evacuation of the survivors by firing on ambulances. The Red Cross is able to reach the house four days? five? later, finding four children emaciated and unable to stand, lying with the corpses of their mothers, “meters” away from IDF positions, whose soldiers had offered no aid.
Shades of 1938 and 39, 1947 and 48, 1953. Lebanon in 1982 and 1996 and 2006 and God knows when else. Bury them in their stone houses. Especially the women and children.
Irgun, Special Night Squads, Special Squads, the Stern, the Haganah and the IDF from then until now.
It’s the culture. Sergeants won’t solve it.
Not sure if this is what you want….
But this press release from a Palestinian Human Rights org in Gaza has circumstances including names and ages of the dead.
http://www.imemc.org/article/58366
Hard reading.
Lots of very experienced, specialized organizations have been compiling data on the atrocities from the very beginning. Go to the websites of the UN’s OCHA for the OPTs, or the ICRC, or Btselem, or the Palestin Human Rights Center, etc etc. No need to re-invent the wheel.
You can access much of this material through Reliefweb. And a coalition of eleven Israeli rights organizations has started a new Gaza-conflict blog, here in English, which compiles their reports and testimonies. Like I said, no need to reinvent the wheel.
Helena
I want my own wheel. pl
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7819492.stm
Pat, this is from the BBC site. The shelling of a home:
Israeli forces shelled a house in the Gaza Strip which they had moved around 110 Palestinians into 24 hours earlier, the UN quotes witnesses as saying.
Mike
several blog do daily update on Gaza situation. Mostly personal.
this one has list of items that probably can be confirmed later on.
http://fromgaza.blogspot.com/
Tank crew slaughters a family after locking them in a house for 12 hours:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4143303/Israel-strike-kills-up-to-60-members-of-one-family.html
Israelis put gun placements on top of apartment buildings after locking all the residents in their rooms, cutting the phone lines, and taking away their celphones.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090105/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians
PL: `Atrocity’: Deliberate killing, mutilation, or abuse of non-combatants.
Having read this article, the first image that came to my mind was the saddening and horrifying black and white WW II footage of murdered Jews being indelicately bulldozed into mass graves and covered with dirt and rubble.
100 Survivors Rescued in Gaza From Ruins Blocked by Israelis
[snip]
The Red Cross has accused the Israeli military of repeatedly refusing to grant permission for ambulances to go to Zaytoun, even though soldiers were stationed outside the damaged houses and were aware people were wounded inside. In a statement issued early Thursday, the agency called the episode “unacceptable” and said the Israeli military had “failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and evacuate the wounded.”
[snip]
B’Tselem, the Israeli human rights group, said residents of Zaytoun who had been trapped in other houses have given similar accounts of how Israeli soldiers were aware of their plight but refused to allow rescue workers into the neighborhood. “What these family members say consistently is that the IDF was close by,” said Sarit Michaeli, a spokeswoman for the group, referring to the Israel Defense Forces. “This wasn’t some remote area. The soldiers certainly were about and were aware of their position.”
[snip]
On Friday, the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs said it had confirmed the account of what happened to the Samuni family. Calling it “one of the gravest incidents” in Gaza since the start of the fighting, the U.N. said Israeli soldiers had packed about 110 Palestinians into the house Sunday, then “shelled the home repeatedly” 24 hours later.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/09/AR2009010901139_pf.html
We know they (IDF), are committing war crimes as we blog. They couldn’t care less, because Uncle Sam approves and Barack Obama is just another charlaton.
Ad Addendum
Analogy : Jews – Palestinians : gas chamber – Samuni house : Zyklon-B pellets – bombs
[snip]
On Friday, the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs said it had confirmed the account of what happened to the Samuni family. Calling it “one of the gravest incidents” in Gaza since the start of the fighting, the U.N. said Israeli soldiers had packed about 110 Palestinians into the house Sunday, then “shelled the home repeatedly” 24 hours later.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/09/AR2009010901139_pf.html
Col Lang,
Sorry to be off topic but I have a question. Is there a reason why all the comments can’t be seen on this site? For instance, I browsed through during the IDF thread when there were 20+ comments and read what everyone had written. I now see there are 70+ comments yet only the same 20+ are displayed. This happens to me on this site all the time. Am I doing something wrong?
Sorry for the interruption.
GCP
There are often numerous pages of comments. Look at the bottom of the comments pages and you will see little blue arrows which are links to other pages. pl
Col, I hope you find this hasty compilation helpful and acceptable. – Ian/Inquire
January 07, 2009
40+ Killed in Israeli Strike on Gaza School Sheltering Refugees
School
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/7/40_killed_in_israeli_strike_on
“In the deadliest attack since Israel launched its assault on Gaza twelve days ago, up to forty-two Palestinians died on Tuesday after Israel fired mortars at a United Nations school that was sheltering Palestinians who had been forced to flee their homes. Fifty-five Palestinians were also wounded in the attack. Doctors said all of the victims were civilians, including many children. We speak with Christopher Gunness of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency.”
As you may be aware, there is generally excellent coverage on Democracy Now!, this is her third recent interview with UNRWA among several others from people on the ground in Gaza, I would suggest looking at their recent shows for further reports.
Link to HRW report for above incident:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/01/07/gaza-israeli-attack-school-needs-full-un-investigation
Reigniting Violence: How Do Ceasefires End?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-kanwisher/reigniting-violence-how-d_b_155611.html
A quantitative assesment of ceasefire breakdowns (not exactly attrocities, but useful I’d think).
I have not read this in full yet, but here is the diary of “Hatem Shurrab [who] is an aid worker in Gaza with the British-based charity Islamic Relief Worldwide” who is doing on the ground reporting for BBC.
Aid worker diary 12 Parts to date
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7802295.stm
Amira Hass reports in Haaretz:
“Wounded Gaza family lay bleeding for 20 hours” – 05/01/2009
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052606.html
“Three hours after the Israel Defense Forces began their ground operation in the Gaza Strip, at about 10:30 P.M. Saturday night, a shell or missile hit the house owned by Hussein al A’aiedy and his brothers. Twenty-one people live in the isolated house, located in an agricultural area east of Gaza City’s Zeitoun neighborhood. Five of them were wounded in the strike…”
HRW – Israel/Hamas: Civilians Must Not Be Targets (December 30, 2008)
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/12/30/israelhamas-civilians-must-not-be-targets
“Human Rights Watch investigated three Israeli attacks that raise particular concern about Israel’s targeting decisions and require independent and impartial inquiries to determine whether the attacks violated the laws of war. In three incidents detailed below, 18 civilians died, among them at least seven children.”
Sara Roy of Harvard “If Gaza falls . . ” 1 January 2009
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n01/roy_01_.html
“On 5 November the Israeli government sealed all the ways into and out of Gaza. Food, medicine, fuel, parts for water and sanitation systems, fertiliser, plastic sheeting, phones, paper, glue, shoes and even teacups are no longer getting through in sufficient quantities or at all. According to Oxfam only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza in November. This means that an average of 4.6 trucks per day entered the strip compared to an average of 123 in October this year and 564 in December 2005…”
Human Rights Watch: Israel, Hamas Violating International Law (December 30, 2008)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/30/human-rights-watch-israel_n_154273.html
Gaza conflict: Who is a civilian? (Jan 5 09)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7811386.stm
“The first wave of bombings, which targeted police stations across Gaza, is a key case in question – particularly the strike that killed at least 40 trainees on parade.”
BBC World News – Casualties rise in Gaza offensive (Jan 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF214I1sAqc
Includes footage and interviews from Gaza hospital
Al Jazeera english: UNWRA says Gaza situation is catastrophic – 04 Jan 09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO7LM5BPWok
Gaza: Oxfam supported health worker killed, ambulance destroyed (Jan 4)
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/fromthefield/220803/1385eff77cb7b152c8f0b72dc6f0ee12.htm
“A paramedic working for an Oxfam funded organisation was killed when an Israeli shell struck a civilian ambulance in Gaza today according to international agency Oxfam. The tragedy illustrates the deadly dangers faced by Palestinian civilians and aid workers, said the agency. Another paramedic lost his foot and a driver was injured in the same incident, which occurred when an ambulance belonging to Oxfam’s partner organisation, Union of Health Work Committees, was hit while trying to evacuate an injured person in the Beit Lahiya area, Oxfam said.”
CBS News Jan 5
“Mads Gilbert, a Norwegian doctor in Gaza, tells Sky News that the number of civilians injured and killed in Gaza proves that Israel is deliberately attacking the population.”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev6ojm62qwA&feature=channel_page
Detailed list of reported mass casulaties with sources and regular updates. Looks like a one stop shop:
“Precision bombing”
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2400
(I would recommend using the BBC News and Al Jazeer feeds on Youtube for assistance, I find them quite valuable: http://www.youtube.com/user/AlJazeeraEnglish and http://www.youtube.com/user/bbcworldnews )
For some ‘balance’ here is a link to the Jpost (take it for what it’s worth) to a story claiming: “Hamas executes 35 Fatah members in Gaza, shoots 75 in legs, breaks others’ hands”
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733155685&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
(JPost is down at the moment…)
For photographic evidence, see Boston Globe’s Big Picture
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/01/scenes_from_the_gaza_strip.html
Particularly #12 – http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/01/scenes_from_the_gaza_strip.html#photo12 which clearly shows 3 ambulances destroyed with 2 bomb attacks. “A Palestinian medic surveys the damage to a mobile medical clinic destroyed after an Israeli air strike in Gaza January 5, 2009. Four ambulances and three mobile clinics were destroyed in the bombing at Health Care Union, medical workers and witnesses said.”
American International School Gaza Destroyed in Middle East Conflict (with photos and links)
http://www.internationalschoolsreview.com/nonmembers/gaza-school.htm
Norman Finkelstein has a good roundup of relevant links (where I have found some of these references): http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
(I am sorry that any formatting and hyperlinking was lost on posting, I am not partial to going back and manually inserting all the html code to make it pretty at the moment – I hope you’ll understand.)
Strike on well known media target:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054228.html
The Gaza media house is used by serveral services, not only Iranian.
/quote/
“Israeli rocket strikes Gaza media building, wounding two,” Press TV said in a breaking news headline, after initially porting there were no casualties in the incident.
“Israeli forces have targeted Press TV and al-Alam television stations in the Gaza Strip,” the English-language satellite station said. Al-Alam is Iran’s Arab-language television station.
…
A Press TV news presenter said Israel knew the building’s map coordinates and had given assurances it would not be attacked. Its Web site said staff had kept light projectors working on the roof of the building to mark it.
/endquote/
Use of phosphorus by IDF, with photos of missiles from USA.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5470047.ece
http://www.counterpunch.org/ewa01082009.html
A detailed account posted on CounterPunch and written by Ewa Jasiewicz who is described as “an experienced journalist, community and union organizer, and solidarity worker. She is currently Gaza Project Co-coordinator for the Free Gaza Movement.”
The problem I/we face is that the first-hand reports are by those who are in Gaza and ipso facto are likely to be described(more or less accurately) as “pro-Palestinian” or the like and so their testimony is discounted by many who do not already agree.
At least in NY where I am, and where I am trying to speak to and influence those who do not agree, it seems that most of what I cite as evidence is discounted for such reasons. Similarly discounted is less direct “opinion” – even when from Israelis with impeccable credentials.
I hope there is an audience for whatever you will do with what you gather aside from those of us who already more or less agree.
Then I would feel like I am “doing something” or helping you “do something”, instead of feeling enraged and impotent.
GulfCoastPirate,
Thank you for asking that question. I appreciate the answer also.
Thanks colonel. I see it now. It shows up so small on my computer that I had never noticed it before.
Sorry to disagree with PL’s definition and some of the posted commentators but I have always believed that so-called “Collateral Damage” even when and if extreme (and it may even rise to “War Crime” status) but are not (is not)”atrocities” are even above that in requiring international and other policing to prevent and to document and to see the perps tried and appropriately punished. “Atrocity” means specifically that innocents and non-combatants that are fully within the power of the combatants that have complete control over them–i.e. de facto or de jure prisoners– are not murdered. Should be no further assistance by the US to any nation-state not joining the ICC. And of course we should have joined long ago.
“Deliberate killing, mutilation, or abuse of non-combatants.”
Well, that’s an interesting definition. It excludes, at least on its surface, the deliberate use of civilian areas as shelters, launching pads, or screens for military action.
I’m sure you already have access to the amply-documented indiscriminate rocket fire, and will include it on your list. But the largest number of ‘atrocities’ committed thus far have been against the Palestinian civilian population – by Hamas and allied groups. Amira Hass’ reporting is as good a place as any to begin, but there are other accounts.
-Hamas is estimated to have executed between 40-80 civilians suspected of ‘collaboration.’ One account details how, immediately after the bombing of the Saraya, Hamas forces seized former prisoners being treated in the hospital, and turned them over to the family members of those who had died in the airstrikes for execution.
-Hamas is estimated to have shot several dozen Fatah activists in the leg or the knee. Hamas claims it shot only those who “passed out candy in the streets” or otherwise publicly celebrated the Israeli assault; other reports indicate that the victims were prominent Fatah members, shot as a warning.
This from B’Tselem: specific contradiction of interpretation of drone footage shown by the IDF
http://www.btselem.org/English/Gaza_Strip/20081231_Army_bombs_metal_workshop_in_Gaza.asp
31 Dec. ’08: Suspicion: bombed truck carried oxygen tanks and not grad rockets
On 29 December ’08 the Israeli army bombed a truck in Gaza City, claiming it carried Grad rockets, designated for attacks on Israel. Drone footage of the bombing was shown by the Israeli army.
B’Tselem received the testimony of Ahmad Sanur, the owner of the truck bombed. Sanur claims the truck was carrying oxygen canisters used for welding, not Grad rockets. B’Tselem field worker took photos of oxygen canisters left on the site of the bombing.
According to Sanur’s testimony, he and members of his family were trying to salvage material from a metal workshop he owns, which was next door to a bombed house, in order to prevent looting. He denies any connection to militants, or military activity, and is willing to talk to any journalist, or investigator.
Photo [go to link for photos] from Army footage of the loading of the truck and photo of the oxygen canisters left next to the truck taken by B’Tselem fieldworker.
8 people were killed in the bombing, including his son. Two were severely wounded (names may have different spelling):
Muhammad bassel Madi, 17
Wisam Akram ‘Eid, 14
‘Imad Ahmad Sanur, 32
Rami Sa’adi Ghabayan, 24
Mahmoud Nabil Ghabayan, 14
Ashraf a-Dabagh, 26
Muhammad Majed Ka’abar, 20
Ahmad Ibrahim Khila, 15
Two were severely injured:
Bilal Suheil Ghabayan, 19
Baha Suheil Ghabayan, 16
This Gaza specific site has some data as well as links:
http://www.pchrgaza.org/
Arabic language source:
http://www.aldameer.org/
Legal issues and perspective:
http://www.alhaq.org/
Jonathan
Good luck.
observer
You are offended because I thought you might not be an American.
What a joke! This is one of the favorite ploys in Zionist attempts at intimidation. I am not initimidated.
In fact, you seem to have real issues in identity. Look at your posts. You talk about the armed force sof the United States as though you were speaking of the forces of a foreign country.
Feel free to go elsewhere. pl
Cholera will break out in Gaza in less than a month if clean water doesn’t flow soon.
A lot of people will die.
I think the Israelis are trying to use “human remain” to accelerate the creation of epidemic cholera. (eg put the human body in rubble that is difficult to extract.)
Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF)has put out the following press release (a day outdated-given the death toll is now over 800, but still) which they asked me to help advertise on their efforts in Gaza, and the extreme difficulties they are facing there.
The military offensive in the Gaza Strip is affecting civilians indiscriminately, while medical teams continue to face serious obstacles to providing assistance, the international medical humanitarian organization Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) said today. The international community must not be content with a limited truce, which MSF said is largely inadequate for providing life-saving assistance.
As the Israeli military offensive continues, the toll, estimated at 600 deaths and 2,950 wounded in just 11 days, is reaching alarming proportions and is indicative of extreme violence indiscriminately affecting civilians.
http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/2009/01/msf-temporary-halt-to-gaza-bombing.html#links
Jonathan Cook, the British journalist who lives in an Arab-Israeli village, lists alleged Israeli War Crimes and the moves Arab-Israelis and Israelis are making within the Israeli legal system to bring these crimes and their perpetrators to court. Unfortunately he provides no links:
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=14028
You’re still getting “hasbara” I see, Col. Lang. I think it’s a compliment to the reach of this blog. They are tapering off around Richard Silverstein’s place, and they seem to have given up on me for the time being.
Colonel, have assessed Israel’s video surveillance and real-time reaction capability? As I understand it, part of Israel’s problem in Lebanon was that reaction to real-time video feeds took 15 minutes, which gave Hezbollah time to set up rockets, fire them and skedaddle.
If Israel has solved that problem, which they appear to be testing in Gaza, does it provide the deterrence they are seeking? Or can a rag-tag gang still burn enough tires to blind they system?
The Observer implies that Hamas is using civilian areas as shelters, but from what I understand Gaza is a densely populated prison at this time, where could civilians go to be safe? Israel has them boxed in, anywhere the IDF bombs or shoots is going to hit civilians and they know it.
The IDF may be able to fool Israelis and obviously our Congress, however most of the world knows that what is happening in Gaza is just wrong.
Colonel,
Israel no longer has exclusivity rights on the Holocaust. Israelis and their supporters around the world must now share the Holocaust with the people of Gaza. The Gaza Holocaust, the “Nakba” has been created by the Israelis upon the Palestinians of Gaza.
Observer,
Well, that’s an interesting definition. It excludes, at least on its surface, the deliberate use of civilian areas as shelters, launching pads, or screens for military action.
Actually, deliberate use of civilians as cover for military operations is “abuse of civilians” (and a war crime). I don’t think anybody here is seriously disputing this.
But the largest number of ‘atrocities’ committed thus far have been against the Palestinian civilian population – by Hamas and allied groups.
This is simply bullshit. The Israeli operation has killed way more civilians than you assert Hamas has executed.
The bias against Israel in this conflict is actually very simple to explain – all civilized humans (and most uncivilized ones as well) absolutely loathe child killers. And right now, the IDF is the one killing children, not Hamas.
Norsk Folkehjelp reports one of its ambulances deliberately targeted. Also, a medical convoy carrying Mads Gilbert (my hero of the week) and wounded were targeted three days ago, according to UNWHR.
Btw, isnt prevention of humanitarian aid and preventing the Red Cross presence to be considered indirect atrocities?
The more direct link for:
Liveleak Middle East
The level of commentary there is juvenile, as well as each side attempts to make propaganda points.
However, the video at times will be unseen on Network news channels, or will be seen here first.
Observer,
as for Hamas hiding cowardly behind the Gaza population … the entire Gaza strip, population about 1.500.000, has an area of roughly 360 square kilometres, which means that there are about 4600 inhabitants per km. Gaza is a small, densely populated place. Odds are there is no place where there is no population. Besides, the place is under *siege*.
Hamas doesn’t have the terrain available to cooperatively separate themselves from the population to be … killed off from a safe distance by Israel’s technologically superior army. Not even suicide bombers throw their lives away. They sacrifice them to achieve an end (what one thinks of either the means or the ends is another matter).
To meet your requirements of not seeking shelter in civilian areas Hamas would have to not fight in Gaza at all. In face of Gaza’s situation, does that strike you as a particularly realistic expectation? I don’t think it is, and I hold the argument to be pretty disingenuous.
For a different perspective, downloading the LiveStation LiveStation client gives you streaming access to Al-Jazeera, France24, Sky and ITN news (all in English) channels.
Al-Jazeera have the only correspondents reporting from within Gaza. Beats the hell out of watching goofy Anderson Cooper from CNN reporting on the smoke in the distance.
In regards to the atrocities, LiveLeak will carry raw video of that is not suitable for broadcast on TV. Not for the faint of heart. Here you get video context of the stories in the headlines.
When you see the corpses of children dug out of the bombed school, the full horror of the crime that is war is revealed. Al Jazeera will not broadcast that, but it can be seen on LiveLeak. War is truly shameful.
When Begin (well, Sharon) was bombing the hell out of Beirut in ’82, at least Reagan had the stones to put a stop to it. Fortunately the cabal of Rice-Cheney-Bush will soon be out of power.
For tracking the war, Haaretz news flashes are also useful Haaretz
As well as the main page Haaretz Main page
It occurred to me the other day, that Clinton spent his last weeks in Office trying to work for peace, whilst Bush’s last gasp is to kill any chances of peace. Indeed the road to Jerusalem led through Baghdad.
Eric:
You write, “This is simply bullshit. The Israeli operation has killed way more civilians than you assert Hamas has executed.”
There is a distinction to be drawn between the death of a civilian in a war zone, and the execution of a war crime. There is no doubt that the Israelis are responsible for the deaths of a large number of innocent civilians. Whether those deaths ought properly be categorized as war crimes is a more tangled issue. I have yet to see evidence that any of the aerial assaults violated the basic tenets of international law. That’s not to say that all of the bombs found their targets, nor that all of the strikes were wise or productive; but if there’s anything that we, as Americans, should be capable of understanding, it’s that even the most highly-trained and professional military forces will produce large numbers of collateral casualties when conducting aerial campaigns.
The situation on the ground is, inevitably, more complex, and it’s fairly futile to attempt to draw conclusions before the foreign media gains access and the fog of war starts to clear. If there weren’t any war crimes committed, it will be a first in the history of armed conflict.
I’d love to stay and debate the point further, but Col. Lang has indicated that he prefers not to have dissenting voices in this forum – he would, it seems, rather impugn my patriotism than respond to my arguments.
Observer
Not at all. You have made a good argument and are consequently rewarded with publication.
You seem to be both an American and an Israeli patriot. Which comes first? Last night on an MSNBC show hosted by Shuster, David Shuster and Clifford May exceeded the bounds of civility in dealing with James Zogby over some relevent subject. Did you see that or are you one of the participants? It was as Zogby said, “shameful.” I should ask you, are there things that Israel could do to the Palestinians that would be excessive? This is your chance to bring up Vietnam, etc.
You are invited, but not commanded, to go elsewhere. pl
This just in: Israeli’s drop leaflets: “Watch out – hide – don’t cooperate with Hamas. We will be ratcheting up the war.”
Translation: let’s try really hard to sucker Hezbollah and Iran into the debacle before 1.20.2009.
Yay/Nay? Please say nay.
I think it is what’s up though.
p.s. Remind me, which one, Hamas or IDF, has nukes? Put the hammer down? How hard?
The majority of Israeli strikes seem to be directed at non military targets: hospitals, ambulances and medical workers, mosques, schools,
government buildings and civil policemen, media offices, general civilian infrastructure and children.
There’s an extensive list of those here with links to relevant sources:
http://heathlander.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/about-those-hamas-targets/
Observer,
There is a distinction to be drawn between the death of a civilian in a war zone, and the execution of a war crime.
I agree fully. In fact, in the past I would have argued that Hamas is worse, because it intentionally target civilians, while the Israelis just don’t really care if they kill any Palestinians during their operations. However, since the Israelis don’t seem to punish their individual soldiers that do deliberately kill civilians, nor those that kill civilians through gross incompetence, they have made themselves complicit in these crimes even if they are not official policy.
That’s not to say that all of the bombs found their targets, nor that all of the strikes were wise or productive; but if there’s anything that we, as Americans, should be capable of understanding, it’s that even the most highly-trained and professional military forces will produce large numbers of collateral casualties when conducting aerial campaigns.
I agree, which is why I think that since large numbers of civilian casualties are guaranteed, conducting aerial campaigns in densely populated urban areas is a war crime, unless there is a significant, direct threat in the target area that cannot be met in any other way. Seeing how utterly ineffective Hamas’ rockets are, I don’t see any such threat to Israel in Gaza.
If there weren’t any war crimes committed, it will be a first in the history of armed conflict.
And your point is ? Should we let these crimes slide just because its always been this way ? Shouldn’t we go for a historic first and actually punish all those who commit war crimes ? At the very least, shouldn’t we stop giving money and arms to organizations who are completely unwilling to police their own ?
From Informed Comment. Mislabeled Gaza – actually Bethlehem.
“Sunday, January 11, 2009
Israeli Soldier in Gaza: “Purification . . .It’s Dirty Here:
CBC reports on Israeli military killing of civilians with Israeli army footage that Israeli television leaked. It shows the killing of a mother of two. There is touching footage of a young girl trying not to show the enemy her tears. Israeli soldiers appear to have delayed an ambulance from coming in time to save her. One of the Israeli soldiers says “I don’t know what we are doing here. Purification maybe. It’s dirty here. I don’t know why a good Hebrew boy should be here so far from his home.”
There is video.
http://www.juancole.com/
I’ve been following an Israeli warblogger site..
http://muqata.blogspot.com/
..that posted a link to a translation of a Maariv article celebrating the remote killing of Palestinian “terrorist” by female IDF soldiers stationed in a “war room” far removed from the action.
Given that the article includes the information that activating the use of the technology was the subject of some debate, I thought to post it to this thread:
“Various debates over the nature of command over the system and training (permission?) to fire it and technical and security issues had created obstacles to the system. Therefore, despite the fact that it was already in existence for a while, it was only a few weeks ago that the tatzpitaniyot in the war room were authorized to use it to shoot.
With the onset of the ground offensive of Operation Cast Lead, a group of terrorists was fire on and one of them, it seems, was killed. A tatzpitanit who had completed a training course in the system explained that “in truth it is not a replacement for infantry, although it lets us end a firefight very quickly.”
http://agmk.blogspot.com/2009/01/idf-ladies-kill-terrorists-from-afar.html
Gaza clinics destroyed by raids
Israeli warplanes have attacked two fully equipped medical clinics in Gaza, causing hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage, the Christian organisations which fund them reported yesterday. The Catholic relief group Caritas said its clinic in the al-Meghazi area of Gaza had been “completely destroyed” by a missile on Friday, and that 20 nearby homes had been damaged. Because local families had already fled their homes, no one was hurt, Caritas said, but equipment worth $10,000 (£6,700) was lost.
Twenty-fours later, another clinic funded by Christian Aid was also demolished in an air strike; it followed a telephone warning to the building’s owners to leave within 15 minutes. Janet Symes, Christian Aid’s head of Middle East Region, said the clinic had “standing room” only for mothers bringing their children for check-ups when she visited it last year. She added: “Now the whole clinic lies in ruins.”
http://tinyurl.com/72d3zt
Observer,
As Ms Hass has as much access to Gaza as the rest of us why should we believe her and yet another attempt by an Israeli rag to demonise the Palestinians. And you are right, the deliberate use of civilian areas as shelters, launching pads, or screens for military action should be included. Something the Israelis have been documented as doing quite often.