This summer, one of my lectures was protested by far-right students. Their rhetoric brought to mind some of the darkest moments of 20th-century history – and overlapped with mainstream Israeli views to a shocking degree. In 19 June 2024, I was scheduled to give a lecture at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev (BGU) in Be’er Sheva, Israel. My lecture was part of an event about the worldwide campus protests against Israel, and I planned to address the war in Gaza and more broadly the question of whether the protests were sincere expressions of outrage or motivated by antisemitism, as some had claimed. But things did not work out as planned.
When I arrived at the entrance to the lecture hall, I saw a group of students congregating. It soon transpired that they were not there to attend the event but to protest against it. The students had been summoned, it appeared, by a WhatsApp message that went out the day before, which flagged the lecture and called for action: “We will not allow it! How long will we commit treason against ourselves?!?!?!??!!”
The message went on to allege that I had signed a petition that described Israel as a “regime of apartheid” (in fact, the petition referred to a regime of apartheid in the West Bank). I was also “accused” of having written an article for the New York Times, in November 2023, in which I stated that although the statements of Israeli leaders suggested genocidal intent, there was still time to stop Israel from perpetrating genocide. On this, I was guilty as charged. The organiser of the event, the distinguished geographer Oren Yiftachel, was similarly criticised. His offences included having served as the director of the “anti-Zionist” B’Tselem, a globally respected human rights NGO.
As the panel participants and a handful of mostly elderly faculty members filed into the hall, security guards prevented the protesting students from entering. But they did not stop them from keeping the lecture hall door open, calling out slogans on a bullhorn and banging with all their might on the walls.
After over an hour of disruption, we agreed that perhaps the best step forward would be to ask the student protesters to join us for a conversation, on the condition that they stop the disruption. A fair number of those activists eventually walked in and for the next two hours we sat down and talked. As it turned out, most of these young men and women had recently returned from reserve service, during which they had been deployed in the Gaza Strip.
This was not a friendly or “positive” exchange of views, but it was revealing. These students were not necessarily representative of the student body in Israel as a whole. They were activists in extreme rightwing organisations. But in many ways, what they were saying reflected a much more widespread sentiment in the country.
I had not been to Israel since June 2023, and during this recent visit I found a different country from the one I had known. Although I have worked abroad for many years, Israel is where I was born and raised. It is the place where my parents lived and are buried; it is where my son has established his own family and most of my oldest and best friends live. Knowing the country from the inside and having followed events even more closely than usual since 7 October, I was not entirely surprised by what I encountered on my return, but it was still profoundly disturbing.
In deliberating these issues, I cannot but draw on my personal and professional background. I served in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) for four years, a term that included the 1973 Yom Kippur War and postings in the West Bank, northern Sinai and Gaza, ending my service as an infantry company commander. During my time in Gaza, I saw first-hand the poverty and hopelessness of Palestinian refugees eking out a living in congested, decrepit neighbourhoods. Most vividly, I remember patrolling the shadeless, silent streets of the Egyptian town of ʿArīsh – which was then occupied by Israel – pierced by the gazes of the fearful, resentful population observing us from their shuttered windows. For the first time, I understood what it meant to occupy another people.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/13/israel-gaza-historian-omer-bartov
Comment: Thus begins a long article by Omer Bartov, a world leading scholar on genocide and the Holocaust. The entire article is well worth a close read. In my reading of this article, Bartov is not saying that Israel is an inherently evil entity, but it is doing evil things. It’s a case, as Nietzsche would say, of staring into the abyss and having the abyss stare back. The Israelis exist in an exceedingly dangerous neighborhood. Hamas and others want to destroy Israel, not just establish a Palestinian state. Israel must and will fight against that destruction, but not all of her neighbors, or Palestinian inhabitants, are working for the destruction of Israel.
In contrast to the analysis of Bartov, stands this interview with Dan Shueftan, an Israeli academic and chairman of the National Security Studies Center at the University of Haifa. My thanks to mcohen for linking to this video a week or so ago. He presents his views rationally, but I see those views as a perfect example of what Bartov observed among so many Israelis. Of course what Shueftan makes sense as long as you suspend any belief that Palestinians should not exist and that Israel must continue to exist no matter what the cost. Even with that assessment, I strongly recommend viewing Sheuftan video. He speaks for many Israelis and their supporters and he speaks well.
Certainly it would be too much to expect that all Israelis back away from their darkest emotions just as it would be too much to expect that all Russians, Ukrainians and other East Europeans back away from their darkest emotions. But I don’t think it’s too much to ask that Israelis and her supporters back away from the hard line ideologues of the Netanyahu government. This weekends mass protests in Israel show that’s possible. But at the same time we must ask that Palestinians, and their supporters, back away from the jihadis of HAMAS, the Palestine Islamic Jihad and ISIS.
TTG
Thanks TTG. It’s nice to see that Bartov eventually found his bearings after his initial stupidity of November 2023. There are many worthy quotes in his long essay, particularly the ones that show how the Israeli leaders statements post Oct 7 parallel almost verbatim the statements of Wehrmacht soldiers writing home about the “bestial subhuman Jews and Slavs.” Only difference is the language. Compare two of our famous post 911 leaders — Dubya the cretin iron-pumper and (Great White Massah) Dick Cheney. As bad as they were and as catastrophic as their policies became their rhetoric never approached the barbarity of the Israelis and Nazis, not even close. And the armed forces of the United States of America did not fly helicopters near the falling towers to massacre at least half the survivors — like the Israelis did to their own survivors.
I had to turn off the second YouTube video after a minute or so. The first words out of that guy’s mouth were that Palestinians are “barbarians.”
A fantasy: During the interview the studio is obliterated by several 1 or 2 ton bombs dropped from an Israeli aircraft. After the dust settles some IDF officers wade through the rubble. They have a live microphone. And thus the world hears:
“what a shame, Yuvaal. mossad was certain that this was a Palestinian foundling home and nursery.” “Yes Moishe, better luck next time!”
Netanyahu planned Oct 7 with obvious purpose — sacrifice 1200 of his citizens so he could ethnically cleanse Gaza and then the West Bank, and then proceed to seize the immensely lucrative gas fields off the coast of Gaza. Security was removed by design.
Netanyahu named one of his sons after the most evil of the legendarily evil kings of Israel. He belongs to that category of ancient King who Herodotus wrote about – Cambyses who fed his dinner guests their own children trussed up and roasted. Or maybe the late Roman emperor described by the historian Amianus Marcellinus who kept two hungry bears in cages in his personal quarters, so he could enjoy watching his captives being mauled and devoured alive.
F&l
Explain to me your logic in stating that 7/10 was planned by Stormy.I just cannot connect the dots.An old one
I saw an old man pushing
A trolley down the street
He was shuffling
No shoes on his feet
I asked where’s he at
Could I get him some push
Like under the hat
That grows on a bush
Said he had the bum bag sag
Was all cashed up
Gonna put it on a nag
At the melbourne cup
He said he had a mate
Who played the dark arts
Had tricks on his plate
A man of many parts
He would summon a wakt
From a juju bowl
Smoke a fresh khat
Slide down the rabbit hole
Pull out the ouja board
Get some answers
From the dark lord
Take his chances
Cut a long story short
At odds twenty to one
The ticket he bought
Was the horse that won
I saw an old man pushing
A trolley down the street
He was shuffling
New shoes on his feet
Thank you mcohen for your nice poem about the old man. I outlined my reasoning for those statements some time ago, mcohen. You need to pay better attention. Meanwhile I am eleven minutes into “Sink the Bismarck!” (1960) free on YouTube. Excellent acting. A world which no longer exists. Maybe Steven Spielberg will do a remake. I’m sure I saw this years ago as a kid. I remember running upstairs and crying for 15 minutes after my dad told me that the Japanese battleships had larger main deck guns than the Americans during the war. He had been telling me the story of the Graf Spee and how she was scuttled in Uruguay. I thought that was a terrible thing to do to her even though of course I hated the Germans. I think he told me the Bismarck also had larger guns than the American battleships. All around a very troubling day and one I can remember as if it was yesterday.
My mate once exclaimed to a person in surprise one dark and stormy night….uruguay !!!
The problem with isn’t with the naughtiness of Israel’s ethnic cleansing, genocide or whatever you want to call it. The problem is that it won’t work. Israel – as a Jewish state – is a gonner. The old joke is that the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Israel has slipped past its last opportunity. Who’s the fool now?
My gut feel: They can all relo to New Jersey, and the United States will be a better place for it.
Like South Africa. You’re not alone, see two links below.
Israel could cease to exist before 80th anniversary, says ex-premier Barak.
https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2022/05/07/681651/Israel-will-cease-to-celebrate-its-80th-creation-anniversary,-former-prime-minister-Barak-says
Former premier Ehud Barak has expressed concern about Israel’s survival, saying the entity will cease to exist before the 80th anniversary of its 1948 establishment.
In an interview with Hebrew-language newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth, the former military general turned prime minister, said Jews have not ruled for more than 80 years on the trot throughout history, predicting a doom-and-gloom scenario for Israel.
“Throughout the Jewish history, the Jews did not rule for more than eighty years, except in the two kingdoms of David and the Hasmonean dynasty, and in both periods, their disintegration began in the eighth decade,” Barak said.
The 80-year-old former premier said the present Israeli regime represents the third experience and is approaching the eighth decade of the entity’s existence.
Barak said he harbors deep fears that the curse of the eighth decade would befall the present Israeli regime. (More at link)
Israeli general: State will collapse in a year if war continues.
https://www.financial-world.org/news/news/crimes/27097/israeli-general-state-will-collapse-in-a-year-if-war-continues/
The conflict in Palestine brings different perspectives and conclusions. On one side, there are many who support Israel and its goals, while on the other, there is a significant number of people who oppose Israel’s actions, particularly the killing of civilians. It’s difficult to predict when this conflict might end, and the daily events provide little optimism. (Continues.at link).
No.all this hand wringing is disgusting
Israel must take control of gaza.Take control of the Philadelphia route
They must develop the offshore gas reserves and kick everyone and everything out of gaza and use the gas resources to rebuild and repair a fair deal for the gazans.Never mind Samson.This 2024 and Europe needs gas.
Get rid of the gulf Arabs,get rid of the Egyptians,the un,the usa,the British… whole lot.
The cheesecake must be shared amongst the people on the ground.That is the objective of this war.Cut the pipelines off and supply Europe with local gas.
Warren Buffett sold a massive amount Iof stock in Apple and Bank of America. He is trying to say something and that something is; The US is ^%$#ed.
The era of the US couping countries is OVER. The US military complex of selling weapons is also OVER. The lean on recruits from the South also OVER. It’s coming to an end.
I served 20 years. I love this Republic but it is no longer the Republic that I loved. It is a toxic ooze that will be stopped one way or another but it will be stopped.
babelthuap,
Buffet sold those stocks and other billionaires immediately snapped them up.
That decision may be more complex than the US being screwed. See below. He seems to think the capital gains tax rate may be set to increase soon – Reason 3. BTW – The US just seized Maduro’s airplane.
———————-
4 key lessons following Warren Buffett’s move to sell half of Berkshire Hathaway’s Apple stock:
https://www.bankrate.com/investing/warren-buffett-berkshire-hathaway-apple-stock-selling-key-lessons/
F&L,
Seizing Maduro’s plane seems kind of petty to me. That’s not going to make him step down.
I think people have read way too much into this, when the reality is there is no takeaway for the broader public, at least IMHO.
BOA has a lot of exposure to the EU and UA as well as corporate real estate. Mark to market on the bonds are going to hurt them badly.
You ask that Palsstinians back away from their support of extremists and Hamas. Of course the Palestinian resistance was mainly secular and leftist for decades into the late 1980s when Israel helped the fledgling Hamas as a way to divide the Palestinian movement.
What, exactly, did the decades of supporting non religious extremists get the Palestinians? Exactly the same thing supporting Hamas and extremists get them: nothing.
Netanyahu had made it clear, as has a majority of the Knesset. There will be no Palestinian state. Not now, not ever.
What will come next from the Palestinians will make October 7th look tame and there is nothing Israel can do to stop it. To keep Palestinians from supporting extremists they must have hope. Israel has no intention of letting them have hope. They still think that if they make things bad enough Palestinians will pack up and leave.
Before 10/07 there was little Hamas presence in the West Bank. Now Israel is having to invade cities in the West Bank to fight Hamas. Not only is Bibi’s “total victory” completely failing, Hamas is spreading.
Give Palestinoans something to live for then maybe extremists lose out. As long as their own future is continue occupation and death, extremists will reign supreme.
The next generation of Gazans might just decide if they can’t have a future there, no one will. In a space that small it would only take a few non conventional weapons to make Israel and Palestine no go areas for everyone.
“Hamas and others want to destroy Israel, not just establish a Palestinian state. ”
False.
2017 Hamas charter
Under the heading “The position toward Occupation and Political Solutions” (paragraphs 18 to 23)
The document describes the two-state solution, i.e. the creation of an independent Palestinian state according to the 1967 borders with Jerusalem as its capital, as a “formula of national consensus”,
Aleksandar
Israel is a state of mind.
Mind you,it also has a physical component but that is entirely arbitrary,mostly dependent on God’s will.
The charter will not suffice as it has no basis in the Abrahamic Accords.There is simply no mention of it in both the new and old testament either.
Hope that answers your question concerning the 2 state solution with “Jerusalem as our capital” statement
➡️Israel is a state of mind⬅️
So is:
Delusional psychosis
Schizophrenia
Hysterical neurosis
Paranoia
Psychopathy
Megalomania
Narcissistic personality disorder
..
..
F&L,
So is Islam, transgender, socialism, love, marriage, democracy, happiness, sadness, life itself.
I guess that’s what makes people like physics and be otherwise living lives of quiet desperation. Physics adheres to physical laws and everything is BS, right? Why go on living? It’s stupid and delusional and meaningless to believe there is purpose and doing so is always at the expense of someone/something else who/that is also, in turn, existing in their delusion at the expense of others. We should all just commit suicide and let physical matter exist without any observer.
Or we can chose to be brave and adventuresome and live and fight – hopefull laugh and love in between episodes of conflict. Life eats life. It will not – cannot – be otherwise. I say screw the muslims. Muslims can say screw the infidels, especially Jews. Now we have a great drama to battle through. Social justice warriors can chime in and accuse and condemn one side or the other; or both! Conservatives can sceech at commies and commies can spout sophistry and through the conservatives into gulags. Slaves can be freed so they can enslave themselves and others. Mothers can raise children only to have the children turn on the mothers. People can murder or fornicate their neighbor and the same people can save lost kittens. We can build great nations only to have them fall into the sea or be lost to barbarians in a few generations. More drama please! What fun! What the hell else are you going to talk about? Why bother talking except it’s fun to go blah blah blah. Seriously.
Eric, were you offended that I didn’t include “Homocidal Maniac” in the list? I meant no offense.
Here’s something in which the US actually really leads the world Eric — murdering school kids for no apparent reason! I hope you feel vindicated. Not particularly fair to let the Israelis have all the fun, is it? I thought you’d agree.
“How come I can’t be shot to death with a machine gun even though I’m a blameless little kid?” Said little Johnnie from Georgia USA. And went on to complain that only innocent Palestinian children we being gruesomely butchered — “It’s terribly unfair,” said the little boy.
We’ll just have to wait to see if the victims parents were:
1- people who protested against genocide in Gaza
2- no good leftists (commies, socialists etc or misguided folks who think a 12 yr old raped by her uncle should be allowed an abortion especially if the pregnancy is life threatening)
3- antisemitic
4- democrats
5- republicans
6- antivaxx
7- provaxx
8- anti gun rights
9- Mexican (like the 8 yr old children in Uvalde Texas)
Ready to win our sweepstakes and take home a giant teddy bear in the form of a convicted serial killer? Then be the first to send in the best answer to these simple questions:
1-At the Apalachee school shooting in Georgia USA on Wednesday Sept 4, 2024, how many fully armed police stood around doing nothing while the students were killed and wounded?
A) Less than 367
B) More than 367
2- How long did they (the armed police) wait around before go after the shooters?
A) Less than 90 minutes
B) More than 90 minutes
—————————————
At least 4 killed, approximately 30 injured in school shooting, sources say .
https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/04/us/winder-ga-shooting-apalachee-high-school/index.html
Winder, Georgia
CNN
—
At least four people are believed to have been killed and approximately 30 more injured in a shooting at Apalachee High School in Winder, Georgia, according to law enforcement sources in the state.
It’s unclear how many of the injuries are from gunshot wounds. The information is preliminary and is subject to change.
A suspect is in custody who is of student age, but it’s unclear whether they attend the school, according to the sources.
————————————————
Extra credit: Name several numbers which in quantity are “at least 4.”
How many neanderthal children were eaten by saber tooth tigers and cave bears? How many died because they experienced simple appendicitis. How many were killed or taken in raids by other tribes?
Yet the earth kept turning, the grass grew green in Spring, babies were born and the stars shown in the night sky.
Life is a homicidal maniac and its going to kill you and me both one of these days. The moment you’re born – even before – life starts the clock on the time bomb ticking. So go ahead, get mad at life for all of the death.
The position toward Occupation and political solutions
18. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.
19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.
20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.
There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity
21. Hamas affirms that the Oslo Accords and their addenda contravene the governing rules of international law in that they generate commitments that violate the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people. Therefore, the Movement rejects these agreements and all that flows from them, such as the obligations that are detrimental to the interests of our people, especially security coordination (collaboration).
22. Hamas rejects all the agreements, initiatives and settlement projects that are aimed at undermining the Palestinian cause and the rights of our Palestinian people. In this regard, any stance, initiative or political programme must not in any way violate these rights and should not contravene them or contradict them.
23. Hamas stresses that transgression against the Palestinian people, usurping their land and banishing them from their homeland cannot be called peace. Any settlements reached on this basis will not lead to peace. Resistance and jihad for the liberation of Palestine will remain a legitimate right, a duty and an honour for all the sons and daughters of our people and our Ummah
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
Besides Israel/Palestine is Islamic land, where, since Islam is a very peaceful religion, all other religions will be tolerated:
Islam and Palestine
7. Palestine is at the heart of the Arab and Islamic Ummah and enjoys a special status. Within Palestine there exists Jerusalem, whose precincts are blessed by Allah. Palestine is the Holy Land, which Allah has blessed for humanity. It is the Muslims’ first Qiblah and the destination of the journey performed at night by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. It is the location from where he ascended to the upper heavens. It is the birthplace of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him. Its soil contains the remains of thousands of prophets, companions and mujahidin. It is the land of people who are determined to defend the truth – within Jerusalem and its surroundings – who are not deterred or intimidated by those who oppose them and by those who betray them, and they will continue their mission until the Promise of Allah is fulfilled.
The situation in Israel is nothing like as clear and easy to navigate as that in Ukraine.
From day one of the SMO two points were fixed. The Donbass will be free. Remnant Ukraine will be neutralised. There’s a lot else now, and the shape of the eventual resolution is becoming clearer, but there was never any doubt about those two central points.
Not so in Israel. I defy even the most knowledgeable and perceptive to tell me whether the Palestinians will ever be free. Or whether Israel will settle down to some sort of acceptable condition. Quite possibly the Palestinians will be cleared out altogether. Or maybe Israel as a state will become unviable. Oceans of informed speculation about all that but no chance here of saying with confidence, this is going to happen and here’s how.
So an unpredictable horror show, what’s happening in Gaza and the Occupied Territories. But one thing both conflicts have in common.
The world – not us in the West but the world as a whole outside our Western enclave – has slowly but irrevocably made up its mind. Both conflicts demonstrate in the clearest fashion the West supporting straight evil. That loss of Western moral and diplomatic credibility would have been unthinkable even a few years ago.
With that loss goes something that’s been occurring, barely noticed by us, for many decades. The loss of several centuries of unchallenged Western economic and military supremacy. No great loss, some might say. But that loss as well it’s not going to be easy to adjust to.
EO,
The Donbas will not be free. Both Moscow and Kyiv claim it as their own. Moscow has sacrificed the male population of Donbas to her quest for the destruction of Ukraine and has taken most of the children to raise as their own.
I accept that that’s how most of us in the West see it,TTG. Safer, maybe, to carry on seeing it like that. Else we’ll get hauled over the coals as Patrick Armstrong was in Canada and as is happening in Germany.
But that’s just how our politicians and journalists insist we see it. The “Ukraine” they’ve sold us was never a Ukraine that existed in real life. The Donbass was never a region needing protection from the Russians. It needed, urgently, protection from Kiev!
And now they’ve got it, almost, and when remnant Ukraine has been neutralised they’ll have it in full. So will all Ukrainians, because the government we’ve installed and supported in Kiev is a far great burden on the Ukrainians themselves than we yet understand.
And where our writ no longer runs, outside the West, they know that now. There’s been enough information seeping out of the Donbass, and Odessa and even as far west as Lvov, for them to know we’ve installed a government in Kiev that’s a throwback to the ’40’s. They world knows we have been backing evil though we ourselves don’t.
So too in Israel. Except that on that most in the West as well, I think, know we’ve been backing evil there. We have no business supporting a hard line Israeli government that is avowedly pursuing a policy of Endlösung. That’s not what the West was supposed to be about.
So what I’m saying is that with that loss of Western credibility, together with the loss of economic and military supremacy, we have a lot to get used to. We shan’t get used to it by pretending we’re Borrell’s “Garden”, beset by seven billion “Jungle” dwellers. That groundless exceptionalism, European or American, doesn’t answer any more.
Particularly since as far as I can see both the States and we in Europe have enormous internal problems. We have quite enough to do dealing with those problems, without causing further problems all across the planet.
English.Well stated.Endlösung I like that.There is a poem in there.
Thereupon endlösung reaches beyond
The swirling dust dervishes who
On glow in shadow recesses
Who rest upon golden haunches below
With feverish caresess
Summon thee to do their bidding.
There you go EO.bit of tickle
When asked how they could get away with Endlösung, Hitler responded, “But who remembers the Armenians”. Stupid little maniac and his drooling midwit minions. I am here, remembering, and he, and minions, long ago relegated to the halls of eternal infamy.
But was Dresden Endlösung? Was Hiroshima and Nagasaki? If you ask the barbarians, most certainly. No one cares what barbarians think, except fools who couldn’t lift the barbarian’s sword nor ride his horse.
EO –
We (you) have no business supporting the hard line Putin government policy of an Endlösung for Ukraine. There would be no Ukrainians left un-murdered; including infants, he killed a few more of those little ones this week with his war against hospitals. There could be a few Ukrainian puppets left, they are currently in Moscow waiting for their day. Moscow would finally attain its dream of destroying Ukraine, one of the oldest nations in Europe dating back to the 9th Century. Would Ukrainian finally become an extinct language like the Tzars and the Bolsheviks have tried to do for 300 years? Which by the way is the primary reason so many Russian speakers live in Ukraine – most are not ethnic Russians. Would Ukrainian culture again be under attack with the destruction and rewriting of history?
Instead the Kremlin should focus on bettering the life of ordinary Russian citizens – within their own border. The exceptionalism you speak of is not in the West. Europe and America do not believe that they are a quasi-divine state as the Kremlin believes itself to be. Europe and America don’t share the Kremlin’s contempt for international laws and ethical norms. Putin needs to wake up from his messianic dreams of empire and realize that Russia is not morally and militarily superior than the rest of the world. Let him be the savior of his own people, not the pretend-savior of his neighbors.
leith,
I just don’t get it.
You live, I believe, in the American Northwest, I believe Oregon.
How is it that you care so much about Ukraine?
Keith Harbaugh,
I recommend Timothy Snyder’s Yale course on “The Making of Modern Ukraine” for the history of Ukraine.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNewfxO7LhBoz_1Mx1MaO6sw_
Keith Harbaugh:
Wild guess – Leith is a river in East Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leitha
Keith H –
Every American should care about victims of aggression.
PS – I live in the great state of Washington in the SW corner. I do sometimes cross the river to visit Astoria or Portland Oregon to see a specialist doc. That’s much easier than traveling to Seattle or Olympia.
Oh Leith! Minsk. Istanbul.
Me, I never believed either of those two was ever going to come off. Given the fury and tenacity of the Western attack on Russia I don’t expect the Russians did either.
But be fair. The Russians left the door open for a peaceful settlement. One that would have left Ukraine intact, had we not insisted they fight to the last Ukrainian.
……………………
Worried about these two items. Maybe the Russians are inventing them.
“Comment by the official representative of the Foreign Ministry of Russia M. В. Zakharova in connection with Britain’s involvement in the preparation and execution of terrorist acts in Russia together with the Kiev regime
“New facts are emerging which indicate London’s deep involvement in the preparation and execution of terrorist acts by the Kiev regime on the territory of Russia.
“Thus, during the study of electronic components of unmanned aircraft, which were used by the Ukrainian side in early August to attack the fuel storage in the Kamensky district of Rostov region, it was established that the pre-setting of UAV flight controllers was carried out on British territory in the area of Salisbury near the headquarters of Callen-Lenz GB and near Newport city in Wales in the hangar of the British company Safran Seats GB. Both of these companies specialize in development for the aerospace and aerospace industries.
“Assembly of the mentioned UAVs was carried out in the Vyshgorod district of the Kiev region, and the launch took place from positions not far from Slavyansk in the under-controlled Ukrainian Armed Forces part of the Donetsk People’s Republic.”
And this one also looks off the wall. Until you remember what our men were doing out of Odessa with the naval drones – drones that needed your ISR to work. And then remember the deliberate and continued shelling of the ZNPP and the commando raids on that installation:-
“Prisoner of war Mikhail Shkoda from the 82nd airborne assault brigade of the Ukrainian Armed Forces stated this in a conversation with RIA Novosti.
“According to him, the commander-in-chief of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, Syrsky, arrived at the location of the ninth reconnaissance company of the 82nd brigade on August 5, the day before the Ukrainian Armed Forces’ attack on the Kursk region.
“He set the task of breaking into the Kursk Nuclear Power Plant and planting explosives there, and also said that NATO specialists helped prepare the event.”
The Kursk incursion was a NATO planned operation. From the start it looked incredibly dumb, even for NATO. Could be that that POW was just making up stuff that his captors wanted to hear. Or stuff they made up for him.
But given that Zelensky’s well into his last days in the bunker, and that NATO’s at its wits end, we can’t entirely rule out the possibility that this Kursk incursion was a Hail Mary attempt at nuclear blackmail. Can you give me any sensible military reason for the wanton throwing away of men and equipment in Kursk? Even some of the puppets in Kiev are dumbfounded by the foolishness of it all.
………………………….
Don’t fall for the material you’re seeing in the Western media about the Russians targeting children’s hospitals etc. They don’t. They’re targeting, among other military targets, assemblies of troops and officers. They’re focusing in particular on NATO specialists and “advisers” we send over. They’ve been doing that to a limited extent since Yavoriv. But they now have faster response times and up to the minute Intel so they’re doing it more now.
Ugly business, war. You don’t like it. I don’t like it. But maybe, next time we take on some country that’s clued up on defence, we’ll look before we leap. Otherwise, stick to goat herders and wedding parties, as we usually do.
EO,
Russia had a peaceful settlement in February 2022. They had Crimea and an intact Sevastopol Naval Base. They could have moved into an ostensibly independent LNR and DNR and kept large forces on the rest of the border with Ukraine as insurance. There would have been no fighting, no bombings, no massive casualties. At that point it would have been difficult to implement more than symbolic sanctions. The gas would still be flowing. But Putin wouldn’t settle for that. He wanted a compliant Ukraine just as he has a compliant Belarus. A bridge too far, so to speak.
Now he has to insist that he is fighting the whole of NATO and the West rather than a Western supported Ukraine. It is too much to admit that Ukraine, even a Western supported Ukraine, could inflict such damage on the mighty Russian military machine. He has to insist that NATO troops are fighting in Kursk in a NATO planned offensive. The truth is tearing holes in his great power facade.
Thanks for your reply.
Do you think the arguments of John Mearsheimer, notably this 2015 video
https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4
are valid?
I think they are, but of course reasonable people will disagree.
Keith H –
Mearshimer acknowledges the Kremlin’s aggression towards Ukraine and others. He said that they would incur the wrath of Russia. He’s an old man and his brain is still mired in the cold war and superpower influence. He believes the Big can rule over the Small. Ukrainians rejected that. So did the Finns, Balts, Poles, Slovaks, Czechs, Moldovans, Romanians, Georgians, etc. Mearshimer does not understand that the RF is now just a poor shadow of the USSR. He blames the US and the EU and NATO. But he forgets the Orange Revolution was started by the Ukrainian people over 20 years ago long before Vicky Nuland or any American involvement that came a decade later.
EO –
That BS about Ukraine attacking the Kursk NPP is straight out of the Kremlin’s propaganda wurlitzer.
TTG: “The Donbas will not be free”
Ladies and gentlemen, our weasel word for today is “free”.
Texas is not “free”. Nor is Louisiana. Nor California.
Not if you want to regard the word “free” to be synonymous with “independent”, or “sovereign”.
So over to you, TTG: what’s your definition of “free”?
Yeah, Right,
Independent
All those cameras and sensors and they could not be bothered to monitor them and have several QRF teams on the scene swiftly when Hamas attacked…meh. If anyone believes that they should stay away from geopolitics and stick with their local HOA meetings.
One thing is for sure though; never going to be a two state deal. It is now a full on perpetual battle fueled by retribution and will be for decades. The attacks on Israel will not stop. Millions of Jews will relocate due to a failed economy and the random attacks.
They give the third Reich a run for their money. And Joe & Kamala are implicated.
https://x.com/abbymartin/status/1830990229316018409
Israel bombed the entrance of Al-Fakhoura School, a designated “safe zone” for children to get the polio vaccine. My friend’s baby nephew, who was scheduled for vaccination today, is now internally bleeding from shrapnel in his spine/lungs. “It’s the same lie & mockery by Israel”
IMO, any chance of a near-term Cease Fire/Truce/Armistice/whatever in Gaza died with Haniyeh. Six [more] dead hostages just make it easier to blame the continuation of the war on Hamas.
Democrats desperately want to pretend that there’s a way to end the carnage in Gaza without alienating AIPAC by cutting off US weapons shipments to Israel – at least until after the election. Blaming Netanyahu is convenient; pretending that Israel would choose a “better” path if/when he’s gone is the only way to keep the party together until November.
What I don’t understand is Israel’s apparent lack of a long-term plan. What the hell are they thinking?
Any chance of a “Two-State Solution” died with Rabin & the Oslo Accords. Israel’s options now are limited to:
– removing millions of Palestinians from “Israel” (scare-quotes for indistinct borders)
– allowing millions of Palestinians to live in “Israel” as second-class citizens (no vote)
– accepting the end of “Israel” as “The Jewish State”
The third option is psychologically and politically impossible (unless or until Israel is defeated militarily). The second option might work for a decade or so, but would collapse back into war/revolution. Israel’s actions in Gaza and the West Bank are only consistent with the first option, so that appears to be the option they’ve chosen.
The first option has been the course for decades. The methods are just what have changed. For decades it was low level violence along with trying to make life so miserable that Palestinians would just leave on their own accord. That didnt work, so they have just turned up the heat. That is all that has changed.
Problem is, Palestinians have turned up the heat as well, to the best of their ability. Hizb’Allah is just keeping their powder dry until their right moment. Some 150,000 missiles and rockets, as well as an army with more practical experience than the IDF might make the situation miserable enough that many Israelis might leave.
There has been a sea-change of opinion to Israel with the younger generations in the US and much of the West. Israel will NOT be able to count on things being the same in the west in 20-30 years. Money and arms will slow down or stop in most of the west. The dynamics for Israel will change. Even they are aware of it…..this is why they are reaching out to other nations like India. Israel sees the writing on the wall.
Stefan,
What did the Palestinians do with all that aid for all those years? Besides build tunnels, mansions and Qatar homes for elites, and provide payoff for the UN overseers? And
USAID people.
Which years? The Hamas years? I wonder how much of the cash that Israel gave to early Hamas went into those tunnels? This is something not being talked about. How Israel was part and parcel of the founding and rise of Hamas. Has there ever been a bigger own goal in international politics?
Or are you talking the leftist/secular years? They didnt build tunnels and still got nowhere.
I would ask you, do you think the Palestinians have a right to resist Israeli occupation? If so, how would you go about it? Religious extremism? Nope. Secular resistance? Nope. Non-violent resistance/BDS? Nope.
If you were Palestinian how would you go about gaining your state? The people who complain and moan about the Palestinian methods of resistance NEVER want to tell us how they think the Palestinians should resist. What they think is an acceptable and viable form of resistance. Why? Because mostly they just want the Palestinians to lay down and die.
Stefan,
I’m not a Palestinian and I’m young enough to remember Sirhan Sirhan’s assassination of RFK, the Palestinian terrorists in Munich and many other acts of terror. Their leaders have no guilt and their people no agency. UN monies? How dare I bring that up. Isreal did it, how dare we forget who created Hamas and let’s not remember the oh so effective leadership that existed before them.
And yes, all that killing of civilians on October 7th was criminal and so were the kidnappings. And yesterday’s murder of the American citizen who Joe and Kamala were working so hard to free from the people of virtue and glory.
Fred –
Palestinians did the most basic human things: they survived, had (many) children, and told their children the stories of their tribe.
Early leaders of Israel presumably hoped that the Palestinians would just die off, be absorbed into other countries, or accept second-class citizenship in Israel.
People who support Israel often say that there was no such thing as “Palestinians”, and there may be some truth to that. There were obviously plenty Arabs (and other non-Jews) living there when Israel was created, but their political and cultural loyalties may have been more local and tribal than “national” at that point.
But even if so, then the Naqba *created* “a people” out of those previously disconnected people, by giving them a powerful Origin Story – their own Book of Exodus.
The conflict in Israel/Palestine is now a terrible, intractable war between two Peoples, each believing that God is on their side, each believing that the survival of “their People” is a holy cause.
I don’t see how Israel can think this could end well. They are surrounded by hundreds of millions of Arabs and/or Muslims who sympathize with the Palestinians and resent Israel.
US (and European) support has propped up Israel for decades. What did the Israelis “do with all that aid for all those years”?
They expanded their territory (West Bank, Golan, Shebaa), pushed former residents off the best land and built lavish Jewish Settlements there. They went from “plucky underdog” to belligerent Regional Power which regularly bombs neighboring countries (Syria, Lebanon, Iran).
I don’t see how this ends well for anybody.
Perhaps the guit ridden professor who spent so many decades not in Isreal should have stayed there to provide his leadership in the civilian sector rather than have that nice expI America. America. The country didn’t suddenly change in June of 2023. Pat Lang commented upon the long slow decline and rot there for many years on SST.
CSPAN 9 Jan 2009 #Blowback U.S. Congressman Ron Paul floor speech – IF WE LOOK AT THE HISTORY, ISREAL ENCOURAGED AND HELPED START HAMAS TO COUNTER YASSER ARAFAT & THE PLO https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5128226/user-clip-us-rep-ron-paul-isreal-encouraged-create-hamas