The Turks want Mosul and Aleppo “back.”


"Speaking during an opening ceremony for an educational institution in Bursa on Saturday, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan compared the way that Syrians and Iraqis have been driven away from homes because of the self-proclaimed Islamic State (IS; ISIS/ISIL), to how Turkish people were once forced out from the same cities.

Erdogan added that the cities of Mosul and Aleppo belong to the Turkish people." AMN


If you know anything about the history of the Ottoman Empire you should not be surprised by this.  These two cosmopolitan ME cities were among the most important in the empire.  Baghdad was another but there was always a large Arab majority there,  Mosul and Aleppo were much more diverse.   It was only in the Kemalist consolidation of the Turkish Republic in the 1920s that Turkish sovereignty over these places was surrendered officially.

This statement makes clear what Erdogan's ultimate ambition is and ensures that no Iraqi government will ever acquiesce in the participation of Turkish troops in the liberation of Mosul or Kirkuk.

Only an ignorant neocon fool like Ashton Carter would think differently. 

Perhaps the Clinton Administration's foreign policy team, Wolfowitz, Bolan, Petraeus, Keane et al  will be able to bully the Iraqis into accepting this.  I think not.  pl


This entry was posted in As The Borg Turns, History, Iraq, Middle East, Syria, Turkey. Bookmark the permalink.

98 Responses to The Turks want Mosul and Aleppo “back.”

  1. Jack says:

    I believe Wolfie was on a recent TV show claiming he is an advisor to the Borg Queen and his support for her. That should be sufficient evidence of her Jacobin dreams and the ziocons that will staff her administration. It will be amusing to see all the Sanderistas and the Warren wing that backed her turn into pretzels as they justify her belligerent actions overseas and her giving the keys to the big government store to the plutocrats that bankrolled her campaign and foundation. The Saudis and Qataris and Likudniks and all the Wall St banksters must surely be counting their chickens as we get to the home stretch of this election.

  2. Pat,
    I guess you’re spot on. Working on my Mosul piece as we speak, and I will try and address the issue. Bit of an emotional day … lagging behind schedule

  3. OIFVet says:

    Erdogan’s got designs on parts of the Balkans and the Caucusses as well. Perhaps even on Crimea and the Budjak region in Ukraine. The Turkish government keeps publishing school maps of Turkey that “mistakenly” include certain regions of Bulgaria, Greece, Armenia, Iraq, and Syria. The governments of the affected countries issue official protests, the Turks issue non-apology apologies, and the maps remain unchanged. Neo-ottomanism is a real danger to peace, but sure, let’s blame everything on Assad and on the Putin.

  4. different clue says:

    Assuming that NATO will try “giving away” to Turkey every possible Iraqi place and possession that Erdogan wants in order to keep Turkey “allied” to NATO, and supposing that the R + 6 don’t really care what Turkey does or doesn’t take in Iraq as long as Turkey permits an R + 6 victory in Syria; are the Iraqis now or ever in a position to prevent Turkey’s acquisition of Aleppo and Mosul by brute Iraqi force?

  5. Razor Edge says:

    Razor_Edge said ot different clue…..
    As it happens, Aleppo is in Syria, so it’s not an issue of whether Iraq in in a position to prevent Turkish acquisition of it.

  6. Philippe says:

    I guess we could relax a little on the subject, translation was wrong. he didn’t said belong, but belonged. RT has changed the video title to reflect this. The turcophones people say also that he don’t mention Alepo, but Kirkuk…
    here is what he said : ” In the history Kirkuk was ours. Mosul, was ours. Just because i said Misak-ı Milli (=something about feeling responsible for the safety of these lands) they got uncomfortable. Why did you get uncomfortable? I was giving history lesson, you should get(understand) it.”

  7. Bill Herschel says:

    One thing is clear. Russia is not fighting this war the way it fought Chechnya II. There were no ceasefires in Chechnya explicitly because it was known that the other side would rearm and regroup.

  8. turcopolier says:

    I don’t see a lot of difference. pl

  9. Fred says:

    From the toolshed of our collective memory we should bring out the concept of Free Constantinople. It was Christian once, it should be again. Someone should remind the Sultan.

  10. Will says:

    Good, glad the Sultan wants the past restored. Want Constantinople back to Christendom. Need to undo the events of black Tuesday, May 29, 1453.

  11. Old Microbiologist says:

    Wow, Wolfowitz and Kagan both on her team and McCain quietly in the background along with already existent Nuland. I believe this meets the definition of neo-con central.

  12. Balint Somkuti says:

    Once there was a Vilayet Buda.
    I hope that they dont want to reclaim it. Thank God I dont see it on the other map.

  13. Lord Curzon says:

    That was the thrust of the Gallipoli landings in WWI as part of an agreement with Russia…

  14. Green Zone Café says:

    The USA and other donors created provincial governments in Iraq at great cost. USAID Local Governance Programs I, II, III, and IV (Taqadum), plus the Provincial Reconstruction Teams, plus UNDP and UN HABITAT programs, plus European and Japanese programs, plus military CERP money built and equipped provincial councils and governors’ offices. There were innumerable “workshops” and “study tours” for local officials sponsored by the USA, UN, Europe, and Japan. After a few years, there was a substantial cadre of provincial Iraqis who had participated in these programs.
    Provincial government elections have been held since 2005. These elections created new political classes in the provinces. These interested new elites had almost no power, however. In contrast to the USA, where local governments have the power to raise their own revenues and to spend an amount equal to about 75% of the federal budget, the Iraqi provinces only got a bone of about 5% of the Iraqi federal budget to spend at their discretion.
    In addition to having no spending power, local governments have little or no power over things like public works and building permits, not to mention schools, health, and local mores (the new alcohol ban was imposed nationally). The Iraqi parliament has tried to devolve power to the provincial governments since 2008, but Maliki put up a fierce fight in the courts or otherwise ignored parliament. Al Abadi has been more flexible, but I don’t know what the current status of local government power is. The recent “ban on alcohol” enacted by the Iraqi parliament was attached to a new municipalities bill – have not seen it yet.
    The Al Nujaifi brothers of Mosul, Osama and Atheel, came out of the system of local and national electoral politics which the 2005 Constitution established.
    I met Osama in 2014 (with others). Osama said he wanted substantial authority for the provinces, including control over local police (it has been contested between provincial councils and the Ministry of Interior) and a provincial “National Guard.” What would the Al Nujafi brothers want if Turkey wanted to stay? They are close to Turkey. Maybe the Maslawis, the Turcomans in Tal Afar, the Assyrians, etc., might prefer being part of Turkey.
    There has to be some new deal to keep Iraq together. I am not talking about Biden and Gelb’s foolish tripartite division. I am talking about a reasonable devolution of power and money to local government to do the things local government can do better, based on the principle of subsidiarity. That way, local notables have some power over local directions, and are not wholly disempowered by the Baghdad ministries. This is not a sectarian thing – Basrawis and Najafis feel the same way.

  15. F5F5F5 says:

    I don’t think Erdogan has any actual claim over Aleppo or Mosul, but he wants it to be known how good a neighbour he is.
    But he certainly doesn’t want to see Kurds or shias on his lawn.
    IMHO, the mamelukes are taking over. Again.

  16. Nuff Sed says:

    You said, “Want Constantinople back to Christendom? Need to undo the events of Black Tuesday, May 29, 1453.”
    1. Because two wrongs don’t make a right. (A true and noble Christian tenet.)
    2. Because there has to be a “Christendom” for something to be brought back to it. And Luther, and then Kant destroyed that, leading to its final capitulation to the Novo Ordo Seclorum and demise in the Second Vatican Council.
    Nuff Sed.

  17. turcopolier says:

    “any actual claim over Aleppo or Mosul” No country has a right to any piece of territory. It is altogether a matter of what you can take and hold. Do we Americans have a right to the former Mexican territory in the SW of our country? pl

  18. Babak Makkinejad says:

    So Pest was always in Magyar hands?

  19. Hood Canal Gardner says:

    Hmm “It is altogether a matter of what you can take and hold.” Injuns too?

  20. F-35 says:

    LOL. Who drove more people from their homes than Turks? Greeks, Armenians, countless other Asia Minor folks were killed, expelled, brutalized and converted…Modern Turkey is result of non-stop genocide of local peoples. I wish Turks could crawl back under some rock in Central Asia where they came from. They don’t belong where they are now. It’s not their land.

  21. OIFVet says:

    That is a very unattractive concept to the Western powers. Just remember what happened in 1878: the Treaty of San Stefano was negated by the Congress of Berlin because the Western powers saw it as way for Russia to eventually conquer Constantinople. It directly led to the Balkan wars and WW1, and preserved the dominion of the Turkish puppet over the straits.
    There have been rumblings about creating a Balkan Federation, to include Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, and Greece, (with Romania as a possibility), and those rumblings have increased in the past year as the Balkans were swamped with the Sultan’s migrant wave. I don’t see it as a possibility given the long history of antagonism between all of these states, but who knows what might happen in the future. I would love to see it happen as a way to check Turkish expansionism and US control via the poodles in Brussels. Such an entity would be very problematic for the Borg too, which is another reason why it would never come to be. Given its Orthodox religion and the historic affinities of its members, a Balkan Federation would be seen as a potential Russian ally or a Trojan horse, a stepping stone to Constantinople, and nobody in the West will ever let it happen. Constantinople will remain Turkish, that much I am sure of.

  22. JLCG says:

    Yes we have a right because the Government of Mexico after being defeated accepted $15 000 000 in exchange for those territories. I think they should have taken no money and kept their pride intact but they succumbed.

  23. turcopolier says:

    Everyone. Any other belief is sentimentality doomed to defeat and dispossession. This is the lesson of history and history has not ended. pl

  24. Chris Chuba says:

    U.S. citizens emigrated to the Texas region of Mexico and at first the Mexican govt liked it because it helped them pacify the Apaches. Eventually, we outnumbered the native Mexicans and the rest is history. Well some trends have reversed since then.

  25. Fred says:

    Lord Curzon,
    That’s a new one. Do you have an actual reference?

  26. Fred says:

    Ask the Carthaginians.

  27. Nuff Sed says:

    Where does morality come in to your equation? Or does it?

  28. Bill Herschel says:

    Absolutely not, and I am very glad to hear you say it. I guess wars of adventure and colonial conquest did not start with GWB.

  29. different clue says:

    Razor Edge,
    You are correct about Iraq not controlling Aleppo. I should have narrowed my reply to concerning Iraq and Mosul versus Turkey.
    Might Erdogan try bargaining with R + 6 over Aleppo? Promise to help R + 6 defeat rebellion if R + 6 assigns Aleppo to Turkey? In which case, would R + 6 be able to defeat rebellion without Turkish help or even in the teeth of Turkish support for the rebellion?

  30. different clue says:

    Bill Herschel,
    I think the RussiaGov held these unilateral ceasefires so that those who have eyes to see would see that the rebel jihadis won’t allow anyone out or leave themselves and insist on keeping their human shields trapped with them in East Aleppo till the bitter end.

  31. Laguerre says:

    When I met the deputy governor of Salah al-Din (the Sunni area of Tikrit and Samarra) last year in 2015, I was told that there was a new major policy of devolving budgets to the provinces. This would have the double function, I take it, of putting finance in the hands of the Sunnis, but also in the hands of the Shi’i regions. A good idea.
    I don’t know what has happened since then. Iraq has always been a very centralised country, and it may be there is resistance. However it must have had some effect, because I’ve heard of the same idea in Syria. Bashshar is devolving budgets to the regions, Druze, Kurds etc. No doubt a way of keeping the loyalty of people like the Druze, who might leave him.
    There are a couple of obstacles. One is that Iraq is virtually out of cash, because of the decline in the oil price, which is affecting everyone in the oil area. Even Oman has had a big cut-back this year. Secondly the massive corruption, which led to demonstrations last year. We are not talking about ministers taking 15% of budgets, but 90%. I suppose that has declined with the lack of money.
    I remain unconvinced that Baghdad is ready to give a fair deal to Sunnis, from my conversations with Iraqi diplomats. But maybe now, with the prospect of retaking Mosul, things have changed. But I remain uncertain.

  32. Laguerre says:

    Whatever Erdogan’s ideas, retaking Mosul is scarcely realistic, even supposing that it’s only Mosul and not Aleppo. The idea must be based on the history of 1918, where the British took Mosul after the cease-fire of October 30th, 1918. The Turks bear a grudge that they were deprived of Mosul unfairly.
    It’s absurd, though possible in Turkish mythology. Mosul is inhabited by Sunni Arabs, with a wide swathe of territory claimed by the KRG Kurds to the north towards the Turkish border. None will accept Turkish rule. Erdogan may be friends with Barzani, but not to the extent of Barzani surrendering part of his territory, as he sees it. There’s complicated politics going on here, but not that Erdogan will have Mosul.

  33. Trent says:

    What if you can only hold it with the help of another, stronger (politically and militarily) country a great distance away?

  34. fasteddiez says:

    One should consider the Turkic minority in Bulgaria in such a scheme.

  35. turcopolier says:

    Then, you own it as long as your sponsor protects you. pl

  36. Croesus says:

    ” Few cities can match the glory of Aleppo, Syria, a city that spans Jewish history from the days of King David over 3,000 years ago. Aristocratic and noble, Aleppo was the crown of Jewish splendor in the Sephardic world.
    The Jewish presence in Syria dates back to Biblical times and is intertwined with the history and politics of Jerusalem. According to the book of Samuel and Psalm 60, Aram Soba, the Biblical name for Aleppo, was part of the extended area of Israel. Throughout the millennia, great Talmudic sages record Aleppo’s unbroken record of communal peace and spiritual productivity. . . .”

  37. turcopolier says:

    Nuff Sed
    This is not an “equation.” Morality or ethics in international relations is about what people choose to do. What I said is about the reality of what happens. For example, a lot of people think that Israel has a “right” to Eretz Israel. This is an expression of a moral or ethical position. Most Israelis know that that “right” does not ensure the continued existence of their state. pl

  38. Miletus says:

    The Christianity that was practised in Constantinople on May 29 1453 has been practised in ‘Istanbul’, without interruption, from that day until the present one. One cannot ‘bring back’ something that has never gone away…
    The Christianity practised in Constantinople is also practised in Armenia, Syria, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine, and Russia (and many other places). It is called Orthodoxy and, while Orthodoxy had to contend with Lutheranism at its peripheries, it was never significantly threatened, nor was it ever ‘reformed’. Its doctrine has not changed since the second council of Nicaea in A.D. 787.
    Orthodox theologians are perfectly comfortable discussing Kant openly and objectively when considering the nature of free will. Like Luther, he destroyed nothing.
    The Second Vatican Council is relevant to Orthodoxy, because?
    Perhaps you are thinking of a parallel universe in which the Orthodox Church really did capitulate to the Novus Ordo Seclorum but, in this Universe, the Orthodox Church is still standing, having left behind it almost a century of being murderously persecuted. Yes, it’s enemies are at the gate, but the Orthodox Church is quite used to having its enemies at the gate, literally, for prolonged periods. I’m sure you know this history. I would find it hard to believe that your statement, above, was made in ignorance… (or, as the kids might say, “I see what you did there”.)
    It is true, of course, that Constantinople (and Hagia Sophia itself) once fell into the hands of the Latin Church, albeit briefly. It is to the credit of the Bishop of Rome that he expressed great sorrow and regret for those events (a leader undermined by the military adventurism of the establishment class purporting to act in his name sound familiar?).
    Now that we’ve cleared that up, this might be an opportune time to introduce the subject of eschatology (with a sober expression) to our fellow correspondents.
    Many of our American friends will be aware of the eschatological beliefs of the Christian Zionists, and their willingness to attach themselves to the causes of Jewish Zionism. I will not address this.
    Rather, I would point out that a large proportion of Orthodox Christians take very (very) seriously the prophesies of Saint Paisios. In short, Saint Paisios prophesied that Turkey would attempt to expand its borders and would invade Greece. Russia would then invade Turkey. The Turks would be essentially be ethnically cleansed, with Russia eventually returning the bulk of ‘Turkish’ territory to the Greeks, (whereby Hagia Sophia would, indeed, be returned to Christianity). Russia would eventually falter on the peripheries of the Holy Land.
    The foremost eschatological scholar of the Islamic world is Sheikh Imran Hosein. Hosein argues that Islam will unite with the Orthodox Church to destroy the forces of the anti-Christ. For those who aren’t aware, Muslim’s (Daesh included) believe that Christ will lead God’s army at the end of days. I confess, I can’t quite recall what happens to the Orthodox Christians after the battle; perhaps one of our correspondents who is more familiar with Islamic eschatology can elaborate?
    The point I am trying to make here is that it is not only hardcore Zionists and Evangelicals who are seeing patterns in current world events and who might be influenced by the course of these events to act ‘irrationally’.
    I can’t say for certain that Putin would defend Greece if it were invaded by Turkey. What I can say for certain is that if the Turks were ever to threaten Mt. Athos, Putin would have no choice but to defend the Greeks. Even if he were to prevaricate, Russian conscripts (amongst others) would find their own way in the tens and tens of thousands while others worked on forcing Putin’s hand. It is simply unthinkable that Putin could allow Athos to fall into Turkish hands on his watch.

  39. Miletus says:

    Nuff Sed,
    Morality is intangible. It can’t be measured: Therefore, it can’t be given a value and, hence, can’t be equated to anything.
    Land is measured in units of distance. It has a value.
    Are you asking a serious question or making a half-hearted attempt to virtue-signal?

  40. LeaNder says:

    Thanks, Miletus,
    never heard of Saint Paisios. If one looks at his biography one can understand the prophesy. 😉
    Interesting, a canonized ‘Greek Nostradamus’ in the 20th.

  41. Miletus says:

    Just to elaborate a little on my contribution above, some of the controversy over Erdogan’s statements in the past few days is not entirely new. For some years now, Turkey has been illictly placing revised maps in its academic textbooks (it’s very own atolls in the SCS, if you like) and feigning ignorance when others question the intentions behind these ‘mistakes’. In some of these maps, Turkish territory does indeed encapsulate Aleppo and Mosul, as well as parts of Greece.
    You are aware of Erdogan’s recent tacit claims to Mosul, but not much was made in our media of his statements only a few weeks ago regarding the Treaty of Lausanne.
    Now, I again turn your attention to the subjects of prophecy and eschatology, with regard to Orthodox Christianity.
    I have touched on Saint Paisios briefly, above. It is not uncommon that a member of this community makes either a serious reference or, at the very least, a tongue-in-cheek reference to the Rapture crowd in the United States and their strange alliance with the forces of Zionism. Of course, many are guilty of exagerating their influence, but others also have a tendency to diminish it. I hope that serious people will accept that they are a demographic that should not be taken lightly, given their electoral power if nothing else.
    What is seldom discussed in Western circles are the eschatological beliefs that prevail in other parts of the world. Some of us have become familiarized with some of the finer details of Islamic eschatology through our exposure to Daesh ideology (final battle at Dabiq, and so on). Fewer will be familiar with ‘mainstream’ Islamic eschatology and the writings of Sheikh Imran Hosein, or the prophecies of Saint Paisios of the Orthodox Church. Nonetheless, these writings hold serious weight in the Islamic and Orthodox worlds respectively.
    St. Paisios —
    ‘here will be many events: the Russian occupy Turkey, Turkey will disappear from the map, because one third of Turks will be Christian [conversions], one third die and one third will go to Mesopotamia.
    Middle East will become an arena of war, which will include Russian. Shed a lot of blood, and even the Chinese will move the Euphrates River, with 200,000,000 army and reach Jerusalem.’

    For those who are unfamiliar, St. Paisios died relatively recently, and was not speaking of events in the distant future but events that would occur close to his lifetime. Much of what he predicted is perfectly plausible (I suspect the 200,000,000 strong Red Army is a translation error).
    Imran Hosein —
    Something to note about Hosein is that he is virulently anti-Sectarian and has drawn the irk of the Takfiri’s in recent times. He is a Sunni scholar but argues that the Shia are not apostates and are a part of Islam. He is a widely respected scholar but many of his views are considered to be virulently anti-Semitic in the West/Israel.
    Hosein equates the Orthodox Church with the Christian Church and argues that all other denominations are heretical and, hence, not the Christian Church referenced by TPM (pre-Schism) in the Koran. He further argues that Moscow is the power-center of the Christian Church today i.e. the new ‘Rome’. Since TPM wrote that the Christian Church and Islam would unite to defeat the forces of the anti-Christ, Hosein argues that Russia will ally with the Islamic world against the West and Israel.

    I would venture that it is possible that the Saudi’s are on the road to being branded a Takfiri state in the not-so-distant future (see recent conference in Grozny) if they continue on their current path of helping to tear up MENA countries, and I doubt that Hosein truly considers the Wahabbi’s to be a part of Islam (though he would likely never say this).
    So it’s clear: it’s not my intention to promote the eschatological tenets of any particular faith, including my own. Nor do I recommend anyone spend too much time looking these subjects up on Youtube (unless you enjoy flat-Earth videos, in which case you’ll probably find this subject fascinating too). Nonetheless, this is serious subject matter because there are people who take these subjects seriously whether you or I do or not. Some take them deadly seriously. (Jacques Chiraq has the notes from W. to prove it!)
    The prophecies of St. Paisios are mainstream in the Orthodox community, even if they are not necessarily promoted by the Church. I would venture to say that St. Paisios might even be the most revered figure in Orthodoxy in recent times, almost certainly within Greek Orthodox circles.
    I am trying to say that one does not need to believe in prophecies to understand that events can be influenced by those who do (Daesh has surely proved this). Erdogan is essentially ‘triggering’ the Orthodox world with these statements, and he knows it too, whether or not that is his intention. While the people who are triggered may not be in control of events, they can certainly apply pressure to those who are and force them to harden their attitudes. It is a variable, if nothing else.
    I will say one last thing: If there weren’t something to these prophecies, it sure seems like there are a lot of people around who are trying to make something of them…

  42. Will says:

    Wasn’t Constantinople an Eastern Orthodox City? So what does it matter what he Protestant Germans think, or the Latins for that matter? Has Eastern Christian Russia been reconstituted? Let Erdogan keep on double crossing the Russ? Heard he was was going to turn Hagia Sophia back from a museum into a mosque again? Let the fool keep up his with his designs.
    Have you ever wondered the purpose in the naming of Mariupol, Odessa, and such in NovoRossiya? The Greek Plan?

  43. Ishmael Zechariah says:

    The Turks are doing everything possible to self destruct but can still deal w/ your wishes. Why don’t you go down to Istanbul and raise your flag? I guarantee you a first rate funeral w/ the rites of your choice.
    Ishmael Zechariah

  44. Earthrise says:

    One of the most important reasons I joined this fight two decades ago was in defence of international law. It was Israel’s open flaunting of UN resolutions that enraged me originally, and the rolling back of the core tenant of the UN; the rejection of land acquisition by force. Now we are seeing this play out writ large with Turkey looking to expand her borders, and others rubbing their greedy hands in the wings. Israel needed to destroy the international order to grab it’s Lebensraum, Turkey joining in is evidence the collapse is almost complete.
    Even if the Palestinians are beaten one day into submission, I will never accept one inch of occupied land to be acquired. It is not the six million Jews (maybe) who died, but the 77 million killed in two world wars which weighs down our civilisation. Our dead are justified if we never again accept territorial expansion by force. Otherwise we fought Hitler for nothing. If we fought Hitler for nothing, then the “good war” was just like all the others. Russia is using international law as the basis of her intervention in Syria, and she has my support. If Turkey gets away with taking Syrian and Iraqi lands, then Israel will do the same, as will India in Kashmir, and the flood gates of misery will open.
    Not on my watch.

  45. Babak Makkinejad says:

    Several things:
    St. Paisios seems to have adopted the older Shia Traditions regarding the 12-th Imam, who will be accompanied by Jesus.
    “I would venture that it is possible that the Saudi’s are on the road to being branded a Takfiri state in the not-so-distant future ”
    The spiritual authority to brand Saudis as a “Takfiri State” does not exist.
    I think also that Erdogan, like almost all Muslims, high or low, is completely ignorant of both the Christian Tradition and History – Western or Eastern.
    And Imran Hosein , based on what you have written, is equally ignorant of early Christian History and the role of Byzantium and the Orthodox Church in suppressing alternative ideas of what Christianity is.

  46. Balin Somkuti, PhD says:

    Nope. It was a small/er/ dwelling on the side of the Danube. The Royal Castle and therefore the most prestigious prize was Buda. The parts were only joined into the city we know in 1873.
    You are a person of knowledge Sir. I am amazed.

  47. Earthrise says:

    Croesus, I think you mean Hebrew rather than Jew, they are different things.

  48. Wonduk says:

    I think Misak-ı Milli means a little bit more than “feeling responsible for the safety of these lands” being a reference to the 1920 Ottoman parliament’s “National Pact (Misak = میثاق‎ = Covenant/Pact)” which were to be included in the borders of Turkey, see Wikipedia ( for maps.

  49. zippy says:

    I’ve long read and admired your posts, but really? “Constantinople will remain Turkish?” As it has been for five and a half centuries? The Turkish puppet? Turkish expansionism? A Balkan federation after Yugoslavia? Some very wierd cultural prejudices and delusions on display here…

  50. LeaNder says:

    IZ, who is this Ata Özer mentioned in the school book maps affair by OIFVet above? I am too lazy to try to make sense of Turkish links via Google map.
    The project was prepared during the tenure of former Istanbul education director, Ata Özer, and the discrepancies have shocked current director Muammer Yıldız.

  51. turcopolier says:

    WW2 was just another war. The Civil War in the US was seen as a holy cause by A. Lincoln & Co. “shall not perish from the earth.” That was hokum. The South did not threaten the nature of Northern government. “War is a racket” is the truth. A racket for those who make money off it, a racket for the puffed-up K-mart manager generals and admirals, a racket for the politicians who can rally the gullible. IMO international law is an illusion, but a beautiful illusion. You support international law as the ACTUAL basis for world affairs? Fine! Good for you! I can only imagine how often you have been disappointed. You would support the Palestinians even though the Israelis finished crushing them? Fine, but they would still have been crushed. pl

  52. LeaNder says:

    Imran Hosein?
    Is this the man you refer to?
    Impressive CV.
    Hmm Gog and Magog once again
    No doubt lots of missionary activity going on. Islam seems to be more active then Indian Gurus earlier, but their groups too were supported by UN. How else would you handle diversity, I guess. But I stumbled across the Brahma Kumaris at one point her in Cologne. I didn’t mind the early morning Yoga sessions but found the lectures that followed pretty, how to put it, insulting? They no doubt were well funded.
    Antisemitism? He seems to have supported the “Zionists” were behind it narrative, on a fast check.
    More recently he had the revelation that Europe will do to GB post Brexit the same it did to Greece. Although, I didn’t listen to much of it …
    not the Christian Church referenced by TPM (pre-Schism) in the Koran. He further argues that Moscow is the power-center of the Christian Church today i.e. the new ‘Rome’. Since TPM wrote that the Christian Church and Islam would unite to defeat the forces of the anti-Christ, Hosein argues that Russia will ally with the Islamic world against the West and Israel.
    TPM? There may have been another initial, but I forget.
    I found this interesting:

  53. Nuff Sed says:

    To your first paragraph, you are talking about individual and communal practice whereas I was talking about sovereignty and dominion. As a Shi’a Moslem, I agree with the Sheikh, who believes Constantinople should be given back, but to what state? There are no sovereign Christian states to make the hand over to. And of course the schizoid NATO secular-takfiri Sultan Merdogan is not about to volunteer the city in any case, and preemptive or offensive Jehad (جهاد ابتدایی) is illicit absent immaculate guidance and leadership.
    I actually know the good Sheikh, who was kind enough to invite me to chair an upcoming seminar of his in Geneva in November. (But being from a different rite, Sheikh Yerbouti circa 1979 is more up my alley 😉
    See what I did there? (Billy Crystal on the Catskill comedy circuit, AKA the Jewish Alps.) Nuff Sed.

  54. Nuff Sed says:

    The reformation and Kant’s heretical falacy of the thing-in-itself (das Ding an sich) or supposedly unknowable noumenon has affected us all, as we are, alas, all degenerate moderns (to quote E. Michael Jones) to some extent. So yes, Eastern Christian Russia has indeed been reconstituted along with the rest of us chickens. It is a condition of the end times.
    Nuff Sed.

  55. OIFVet says:

    Neo-Ottomanism is real, and its expansionism is on full display in Syria and in Erdogan’s speeches. Also, those school maps that incorporate foreign territories into the Turkish states are real. Those of us who were born in the Balkans don’t have very fond memories of the five centuries of Turkish yoke, so we do tend to take Turkey very seriously. Kemal’s Turkey was reliable, Erdogan’s Turkey is very much a potential threat. Erdogan has been too willing to fund the radicalisation of local Muslim minorities, and to use migrants to blackmail Europe. Given the large-scale destruction of the military potential of Serbia (by NATO) and of Bulgaria (by its EU/US puppet masters), our capability to defend ourselves against a revisionist Erdogan-led Turkey is very much non-existent in the present. So the idea for a Balkan Federation (far-fetched, but geopolitical threats make for strange bedfellows so who knows what the future holds?) is predicated on the desire to present harder target for Turkish expansionism. Call it prejudiced and delusional if you must, but I venture to guess that your forebears did not have the misfortune to live under the not-so-tender mercies of the Ottoman Empire. Mine did. And while I have a great appreciation for Turks as people and for their cuisine, I don’t trust their state one bit.
    BTW, ‘Turkish Puppet’ is apt description for the Ottoman Empire from the late 19th-early 20th century. Universally known as “the sick man of Europe,” it owed its continued existence almost exclusively to Western powers propping it up artificially in order to check Russia and prevent the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles falling into Russian control.

  56. Nuff Sed says:

    You said, “Muslim’s (Daesh included) believe that Christ will lead God’s army at the end of days. I confess, I can’t quite recall what happens to the Orthodox Christians after the battle; perhaps one of our correspondents who is more familiar with Islamic eschatology can elaborate?”
    1. Daesh or any other deviant of the Takfiri variety such as the Wahhabis and takfiri salafis are heretics according to all 4 Sonni rites as well as according to the Ja’fari or Shi’a rite.
    2. According to both Sonni and Shi’a hadith scriptural sources, the Prophet Jesus, unto whom be peace, will defer to the Mahdi, who will lead the former in prayer. Our eschatological literature tells us that the Christian army will pledge allegiance to the Universal Savior or be destroyed by his army and supernatural powers.

  57. Nuff Sed says:

    The Second Vatican Council is relevant to Orthodoxy, because?
    Because the separation of church and state which is the Council’s main modernist thrust against tradition and the magisterium is enshrined in the constitution of the Russian Federation (as well as in that of the Greek basketcase’s).
    Know your enemy, and know the extent of his influence and power. Nuff Sed.

  58. Nuff Sed says:

    Hmm. On second glance, it still seems to me your statement is normative and not descriptive.

  59. Nuff Sed says:

    In dispensational polities, the system’s morality (or lack thereof) is indeed tangible and is guaged by the polity’s ability to conform to the ordinances of the dispensation.

  60. Doofus says:

    There are people alive who spoke with Saint Paisios, although not necessarily about eschatology.
    First, just to clarify something, the 200,000,000 Chinese army is based on the Greek text of the Book of Revelation (Rev. 9,16) where the expression “2 myriads of myriads” is used for the mounted troops, taken to be those of the “kings from the rising of the sun” (Rev. 16,12) and a myriad is 10,000. However, my understanding of St. Paisios’ prophecy is that there are at least 2 phases to the eschatology and the war in the ME between US and Russia is only the first phase, with the Chinese coming in the later 2nd phase (on the New Silk Road?).
    Second, St. Paisios’ prophecy combines the prophecies of St Cosmas Aitolos ( Other Elders of the Orthodox Church have contributed to the general portrait of the ME war.
    What can one say about these prophecies? Well a wise monk on Mt. Athos who knew St. Paisios personally said, well let’s wait and see whether events prove him right.
    But I must say that St. Paisios is doing very, very well in that regard. Erdogan seems to have his part scripted for him.
    Is President Putin aware of these prophecies? Probably. Does he take them seriously? The only thing that is clear is that he has been doing his best to avoid war, in part to buy time to rearm, but he has his red lines. Most Russians, even if they do not bother with prophecies, seem from the polls and journalistic commentary to be expecting war. How else can you interpret the recent nationwide civil defense drill?
    To me the implication is that President Hillary should think twice before taking on the Russians in the ME. If it’s President Trump, well who knows what he would do? He seems an impulsive egotistical man who might feel that he has to show his manhood.

  61. Hood Canal Gardner says:

    Fred, for some reason when turcopolier shared the “take and hold” truism I was reminded of a possible preface truism in Tolstoy’s little story “How Much Land Does A Man Need?”

  62. turcopolier says:

    “when turcopolier shared the “take and hold” truism” What are you claiming I said? If you are referring to my observation of the fact (not a truism) that countries can have what territory they can hold that is merely an observation of reality. The reference to Tolstoy is childish. the psychological obsessions of a literary character have nothing to do with the fate. of countries. From the .edu suffix on your e-mail I assume you are a professor. pl

  63. Thomas says:

    “I am trying to say that one does not need to believe in prophecies to understand that events can be influenced by those who do…”
    Yes, the statement “Birth pangs of the Middle East” was a take on the eschatological “Birth pangs of the Messiah” and why these same elite are solidly against Iran (Book of Daniel).
    It is one thing for a mad man on the corner to faithfully follow these things and quite another when politicians with the moral responsibility for life and death of their people to do so.
    In the end, there is nothing new under the sun, and now is not a good time to vacation in the valley of Jezreel.

  64. Earthrise says:

    Dear Host,
    The uni-power makes international law irrelevant; might makes right. There is a chance in the coming multi-polar world that law will be required to keep the balance. The US is not losing militarily, she is still the strongest economy (on paper), and her cultural force is still dominant; why is she losing? She has lost the moral right to lead, every word from that government is floating in Goebbels freefall without the slenderest tether to the truth. Russia is attacking America in her weakest spot, and it is working. Like the punchline in Life of Pi, or Schrodinger’s Cat, if I am holding two competing and unverifiable truths in my hands, I chose the positive one.

  65. Linda Lau says:

    I agree wholeheartedly.

  66. turcopolier says:

    Linda Lau
    I am flattered. pl

  67. Fred says:

    If you want fiction watch Jesse Jackson’s comments on the tv series “the barbarians” where he explains that the Carthaginians were really freedom fighters against Roman oppression.

  68. kao_hsien_chih says:

    One thing I wonder is whether it is ultimately the business of United States to decide who controls Mosul and Aleppo. I don’t mean that it is completely irrelevant for us that who should own them, but it does not seem to be much of our business to actively support Turkish claims on these regions or to oppose them–and this seems especially true with regards Aleppo, where the power to deny the Turks belongs to R+6, unless we butt in needlessly. I suppose we are more involved with regards Mosul, in Iraqi government’s attempt to retake the town, but other than some PR claims, it strikes me that our involvement is not very serious, so it is ultimately the Iraqis’ (whether Baghdad or the Kurdish factions) business. Should we even say much as to the “morality” of Turkish claims, even if they are “serious”? Perhaps we should work subtly behind the scenes to prevent such takeover, or not, but the justifications, were we to be involved, should be that redrawing borders willy nilly by fiat is not to our advantage (I think this is true), and that we should discreet doing whatever we do, not make unnecessary noise about morality.

  69. Lord Curzon says:

    Look up the Constantinople Agreement of 1915…

  70. Hood Canal Gardner says:

    The clipped phrase “take & hold” came from your response to F5F5F5..but you know that. Both fact/s and truisms are nouns. As for emphasis/correct use I’ll punt to the copy editor..stand corrected if need be.
    Psychological obsessions as in over-reach—if I read you correctly—are not common to countries, empires, organizations…only (eg) rulers, generals, most humans. Tolstoy’s short story IMO has everything to do with individual countries/empires. The ‘fate’ of the US, NATO and Pahom planting boundary flags in the land of the Bashkirs seems a fair descriptive fit for ‘our’ ME psychological obsessions. Childish? You bet.
    Not that it matters, yes, I’m papered-up (aggie) put in 40 plus in the classroom, good chunks of time in Yugoslavia, Pakistan and Afghanistan, and a couple of years as a US according to my DD 214.
    Thanks again for an outstanding read.

  71. turcopolier says:

    I see the reference now to what I said. I would not call that a truism because the import of the words is not obviously understood and accepted. there are many people who think that history has ended, war is a thing of the past and that we have moved on into a broad well lit upland in which the life of humanity can be regulated by international law. I say that this is an illusion, and that this is fantasy, a bit like a bus queue in Jordan in which due to British influence folks wait docilely in line until the bus door opens. At that point they break ranks and charge the door. Human existence is, IMO, much like that. The lovely illusion of the rule of international law works until the crunch comes, then jungle law prevails and you had better be ready for that to occur. With regard to the professoriate, I confess to an aversion to the professorial manner. People who spend their lives bullying students into apparent acceptance of their views and who are devoted to the business of reading papers to each other generally do not appeal to me. You have to have something more in your life for you to be admirable for me. For those who do not know, a DD 214 is the record of one’s US military service. pl

  72. LeaNder says:

    (on the New Silk Road?).
    I find it interesting you are associating this project. Seems due to “Western pressure” interest rates are driven up to around 25% in Russia. Big chance for Chinese investors. Who can easily make solid investment calculations based on their rates which are around 5 to 6%. While, I suppose sanctions keep “Western” companies out. …

  73. LeaNder says:

    which are around 5 to 6%.
    In Silk Road Vision China.
    Obviously not over here.

  74. Babak Makkinejad says:

    I think it is the heights of Hubris for anyone in US or EU or Russia to think that they can decide the disposition of Mosul or Aleppo from Washington DC, or London, or Paris, or Moscow.
    Those days are gone, they were a fluke and an accident of history, that can no longer be capitulated.
    Of course, US, UK, France, and Russia can annihilate those cities, I guess that is some sort of “disposing of them”.

  75. F-35 says:

    Oh, I have no doubt that in Istanbul cowardly Turks can kill and mutilate a single person who has a temerity to disagree with them.
    What are you trying to prove, Ishmael?

  76. Miletus says:

    Nuff Sed,
    I misjudged you and I apologize. I took your comments as being a slight or made in ignorance but I now see the point you were trying to make and how it could be argued as valid. However, to resolve it would require lengthy deliberation and I come back to my point about whrre the bar is set. The Church has never ruled outright but it has certainly played a much larger role in the affairs of state than it does at this moment in time.
    Orthodox tend to worry that conflation with the state tends to have negative consequences. I suspect that most are happy with the current state of affairs in Russia, where the Church once again has a strong influence on society. The conclusion would be that if the Church has a strong influence on society, then it will have a strong influence on the state (i.e. the bottom-up approach). Some argue that the Russian Patriarch is skirting on the boundaries of what is sensible but are unlikely to argue that he’s crossed a line.
    Greek Orthodox are, in my experience, very unhappy with the Syriza government. Many view them as Marxist enemies of the faith. Times are hard in Greece, and in hard times people often find their way back to the Church (including those who, previously, only showed their faces to keep up appearances). I haven’t seen any evidence of the Church increasing its influence in Greece but I haven’t paid a lot of attention for some time – as you say, Greece is a basket case and I find the whole thing really depressing.
    Know your enemy indeed…

  77. Miletus says:

    1. I didn’t mean to imply that Daesh were Islamic (and I’m usually better at making the distinction, sorry). I think I also alluded, in a post further down, that I can foresee a time when the Saudi’s (Wahhabi’s) will be condemned as heretics by all of the major centers of scholarship. The Islamic world simply can’t survive if it continues to tolerate a sect that preaches hatred of Islam in its own name. ‘First they came for the…’ and so on. I’m not aware of this having happened, so I’m interested to see you write that Wahhabism is considered to be heritical. I thought that the messages coming out of al-Azhar relating to Daesh etc. had been equivocal i.e. without condemnation?
    2. Yes, that was my understanding. Christ would essentially be the commander on the battlefield when things kicked off, but he deferred to the Mahdi – is this correct?
    Nice to know the Christians get a choice at the end of it. Presumably Christ will be there and will give them the right advice! 🙂

  78. Miletus says:

    Babak Makkinejad,
    as a long-time lurker, first I should say that I particularly enjoy your contributions here.
    Perhaps St. Paisios was inspired by earlier traditions but his prophecies differ quite significantly. I’m not aware of any eschatological basis for his prophecies and, indeed, in his version, Russia is eventually defeated. My reading of him is that he based much of what he said on the same kind of analysis you or I would perform on the information available to us. Bear in mind that he was a former military man who was part of the population exchanges between Greece and Turkey. Turkey was most definitely his enemy and my recollection is that he warned that the Orthodox must be prepared to fight if the time came.
    I’m aware that there is no authority figure in Islam that can brand Saudi Arabia a ‘Takfiri state’. However, there are scholars and opinions and such a thing as a consensus can build which would give effect to that cause, even if an authoratitave pronouncement was missing. That’s what I meant when I referred to the Grozny conference. I understand that what I’m saying is not straightforward at all.
    I don’t think Erdogan is ignorant of this at all. I’m surprised you would say that, to be honest. Greece is his enemy. A substantial Greek (and wider Orthodox) demographic took (and take) St. Paisios very seriously. He was a major figure in his lifetime and was outspoken against Turkey. He was a part of a diaspora that was ejected from its homeland in recent history. Would it not be of interest to any state apparatus to know these things? Do you think Netanyahu knows anything about Islamic prophecy? Or Christian Zionist prophecy? I would argue that he exploits both on a regular basis… Unlike most, I don’t think Erdogan is as ignorant or uncultered as he sometimes appears.
    Finally, I’m not an apologist for the Orthodox Church, or Byzantium, and I don’t think Imran Hosein is either. I’m just trying to convey a popular perspective that exists within the Orthodox Church and another that exists within Islam. TPM spoke of future events from a contemporary perspective i.e. he was referring to events that would involve the Church he knew in his time, and its center of power was at Constantinople. The events I assume you are alluding to occurred BEFORE he spoke of the Church, and yet he still referred to it as the Church. He didn’t prevaricate or suggest it was a corruption of the ‘real’ Church. He was just referring to ‘that’ Church; not another. Even if that Church had been heretical and the Latin Church later became/restored the ‘true’ Church, TPM would still have been referring to ‘that’ Church. At least that is how Imran Hosein interprets matters.
    I’m not disputing what you say, but I don’t think a value-judgement of the Orthodox Church is relevant here. What’s important is what people today believe, and how they act based upon those beliefs.

  79. Miletus says:

    TPM – The Prophet Mohammed
    I think we’re all clued-up enough to understand that anyone who identifies Zionism as a malign force (whether it is or not) is usually labelled as an anti-Semite. I’m sure Imran Hosein would argue he is not anti-Semitic but he certainly is by the definition accepted in the West. My interpretation of him (which is not an expert one) is that, at the very least, he doesn’t like Judaism or Israel.
    I wasn’t aware he’d commented on Brexit. I agree with him. The UK has two things: hydrocarbons and The City. Take those away and it’s a basket case. Trade deficit, poor productivity, poor infrastructure, ethnic tensions currently under control but not permanently resolved… The E.U. can offer The City a new home in Frankfurt while they encourage Scotland to vote to leave the UK in the now inevitable second referendum. If the Scots move quickly then those banks may well end up in Edinburgh which is also a major financial center already – the Scot’s might just have played the greatest long-game in history! In all seriousness, if the EU let’s the UK off easy then the EU is finished. England will be made an example of: It’s elites won’t care but the plebs will suffer.

  80. Miletus says:

    I know several people who met St. Paisios. He was much-loved in life and remains so in death. Thanks for the information – I hesitate to say that I’ll now be spending the next few hours reading prophecy! 🙂
    I suspect Putin knows. I’m in the camp that believes Putin is very sincere about his faith. He was at Mount Athos not too long ago. Of course, one doesn’t have to believe in these prophecies to be Orthodox and Putin may or may not, but I’m sure he’s aware of them. Of course, if he does believe in them then that is significant in terms of understanding his actions. But, even if he doesn’t, many of his countrymen and women do and he must factor that in when thinking about public opinion.
    In terms of the U.S. elections, I’m very confident in saying that most Orthodox would be more inclined towards Trump – that’s not to say they would be fans. Hilary’s idealogy is tantamount to Satanism in the eyes of many (most?) Orthodox Christians (and that’s without foreign policy). I don’t buy the idea that Trump is a loose-cannon at all. The man ran casinos. He has a good understanding of probability theory and statistics. I have some background in risk. I think Trump will be rational and I think that, if he wins, that will upset a lot of people in Washington. Look at his attitude to Syria, for example. Sure, he’ll say some stupid s41t and a lot of noise will be made, but that’s what backchannels are for. I would guess that America’s drones would be less busy than they currently are.

  81. turcopolier says:

    “I didn’t mean to imply that Daesh were Islamic” This implies that you know what Islam is. How do you know what Islam is? And BTW, too many and too lengthy comments. pl

  82. Babak Makkinejad says:

    Thank you for your comments.
    From the outset, far be it for me to presume to adjudicate among the Christians or their churches; I only know a little of Church History (The Body of Christ – the Believers) and I surmised that Imran Hosein is unaware of even that little that I know.
    For the portrait of Jesus that emerges in the Quran is more commensurate with the Gnostic Christianity than with the Church – prior or after the schism that produced the Eastern and Western Churches; in my opinion.
    My comments regarding Erdogan was in reference to any understanding of Christianity that he might have; I am certain that he knows nothing that a Christian would recognize as his religion – all too common among Muslims who sincerely believe that all pre-Quranic revelations have been made obsolete by those of the Quran.
    After your explanations, I understand somewhat the motivations and sentiments of this man. I surmise that he was not even a Greek; rather a Pontic. And the so-called modernizing secularizing civilizing Europeanizing Turks dispossessed him and other Pontics of all their lands, villages, cities, properties and ejected them to Greece. Something that the worst of the Ottoman Emperors never did.
    So much for modernization…

  83. Babak Makkinejad says:

    EU does not offer comparable legal protections that UK legal structure do to private property or to individual freedom. City will remain in UK and foreigners with money will flock to her.
    Industrial sector, in fact, is more robust in UK than in France; she is in much worse shape – soon to join Italy.

  84. Miletus says:

    “EU does not offer comparable legal protections that UK legal structure do to private property or to individual freedom.”
    True, but Scotland does. Scots Law may be unique to English Law, but they are broadly similar. There are no major logistical hurdles to prevent banks moving their operations to Edinburgh (some of them already have their operations there while their HQ plaque is tacked to the outside of a wall in London).
    France has higher productivity than the UK, no? The UK already runs a significant trade deficit WITH hydrocarbons. The UK O&G sector lies almost entirely within the Scottish frontier. Even in these lean times, its contribution to the UK balance of payments is considerable.
    The only way I can see The City surviving in its current form is if the UK government agree to a settlement with the EU that is anathema to the English (and Welsh) electorate. That is a possibility, of course.

  85. Miletus says:

    It’s precisely because I don’t know what Islam is and don’t want to give the impression my opinion is authoritative, Sir. My knowledge of Islam is second-hand, picked up while living and working in MENA countries for a few years, (Egypt, U.A.E., Malaysia). It’s nothing special.
    Re; comments. Understood, Sir.

  86. Annem says:

    Let me clarify confusion about Eastern churches caused by the fact that they all use the term Orthodox to describe there orientation. There are different theologies between three or four main groups and they are not in communion with each other.
    The first is the Byzantine church that is represented by the national churches of countries like Russia, Ukraine, Serbia, Greece, and Arab, usually called “Syrian orthodox” and which has its seat in Damascus after having to leave Antioch after Turkey took over the region. They all share the same theology and differ from the Catholic Church only in rituals, laws and the notion of the Pope. For them, the Patriarch in Istanbul is the “first among equals.”
    When Mehmet II conquered Constantinople and chose a new Patriarch, he also gave him control over ALL the Byzantine churches, including the Serbian church. [This could not have pleased Mehmet’s stepmother, a Serbian princess and a close advisor.] Later, thanks to a Grand Vizier at the time of Suleyman the Magnificent [Sokullu Mehmet Pasha] a convert who came from a Serbian clerical family got the Ottoman Sultan to grant these other churches autonomy from the Constantinople Patriarch.
    The second group of churches maintains Monophysite theology and is represented by the Coptic Churches and the Syriac Orthodox Church found in Arab countries, southern Turkey and Iran.
    The third group is called “The Church of the East” and is represented by the Assyrian people. Its theology was once considered erroneously “Nestorian.”
    Finally, there is the Armenian Apostolic Church which has its own theological differences with these others.
    Each of these groups has a Catholic equivalent “uniate” church made up of parishes that later accepted rule of the Pope and altered their theology, but NOT their rituals and laws. Later with the arrival of Protestant missionaries to the region, a Protestant equivalent for each also evolved.

  87. LeaNder says:

    Bear in mind that he was a former military man who was part of the population exchanges between Greece and Turkey. Turkey was most definitely his enemy and my recollection is that he warned that the Orthodox must be prepared to fight if the time came.
    Hmmm, “man of the military” didn’t notice so far. He may not have ever done more then fulfilling his, I suppose, obligatory military service as radio operator in the Greek civil war?
    Considering the recent history at that point in time, I might have wound up on the other site of him. At least as a former partisan, I would have hardly been familiar with Stalin’s rule, but I no doubt would have been familiar with the Nazi reign in Greece.
    Saint Paisios of Mount Athos (1924 – 1994)
    name given in 1957 by the Elder Symeon ‘in horor of’:
    Paisius II of Caesarea (1832 to 1871)
    named in horoor of:
    Paisius I of Constantinople (1652/53 – 1654/55)

  88. Croesus says:

    Thank you Earthrise; I agree re the difference.
    However, the post was completely cut-and-paste and no thoughts of my own. Apparently the folks at Jewish Gen are not aware that there is a difference between Hebrew and Jew.
    — The quote was from an essay by “Sarina Roffé … a career journalist [who] holds a masters in Jewish Studies. She has researched numerous genealogies including the Kassin and Labaton rabbinic dynasties ans is considered an expert in Aleppan Jewry. She is a member of Brooklyn’s Syrian Jewish community and the Jewish Genealogical Society, Inc. of New York.”
    Nevertheless, I still agree with you.

  89. The Beaver says:

    I know that you don’t like reposting from other Blogs but this is the English translation of an article written in Arabic by Elijah Magnier for AlRai:

  90. LeaNder says:

    Were exactly:
    Those of us who were born in the Balkans
    Admittedly, I mainly tried to avoid the Balkan war, blame me to your heart/soul’s delight, except on the rare occasion I was invited by a friend to do some type of translation in dissenter circles.
    The only country’s history, which I took a closer look at was Kosova/o. Which obviously enough had its Ottoman history too.
    five centuries of Turkish yoke
    Seems the author of a rather extensive and recent study at the time, didn’t quite get the five centuries yoke over. At least not to the extend I recall it as yoke.

  91. OIFVet says:

    LeaNder, I am not sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying that the Ottoman control of the Balkans can not be characterized as yoke? Could you link to the study you are citing?

  92. LeaNder says:

    No, can’t link. Maybe I shouldn’t before you answer my question: What’s your Balkan background? The question on my mind that now I realize I curiously enough didn’t seem to have asked. ???? Odd.
    Ok, maybe I can simply look up book and author:
    Notice, I now read the H-Net critical review. … Stumbled across it on a shelf in a local bookshop, never looked back, admittedly.

  93. Miletus says:

    Motorola was a radio operator 🙂

  94. OIFVet says:

    I am Bulgarian and frankly anything written about Kosovo is bound to leave something out or distort and stretch facts, regardless whether it is sympathetic to Serbs or Albanians. Besides, what does Kosovo have to do with the conduct of the Ottoman conquerors during the five centuries that followed?

  95. LeaNder says:

    Concerning books on Kosovo, yes, obviously. It simply was a turning point for us Germans. Both considering the use of our military and some type of accompanying media propaganda assault.
    Ok, Bulgarian, supposing I can trust you.
    The Battle of Kosovo, 1389 versus The Battle of Nicopolis, 1396????
    PS: Looked up OIFVet. Ambiguous considering that Bulgaria, was “new” versus “old” Europe concerning the Iraq War, shock and awe, or Operation Iraqi Liberation.

  96. Miletus says:

    “They all share the same theology”
    There are significant doctrinal differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church, in terms of the nature of the Trinity for example. I don’t believe you can argue that they share the same theology. The differences might seem minor but the semantics are not.
    The differences between the other Churches you mention and Eastern Orthodoxy are similar in nature (in some cases they’re considered to be less significant than the schism between Rome and Constantinople). The theological differences are the main source of dispute – not Papism alone.
    (The Pope, or the Bishop of Rome, was considered first among equals until Latin primacy began to infringe on the Byzantine Church.)
    Officially, the Pope is still held in high regard by the Eastern Orthodox heirarchy – there’s an acknowledgement that the Bishop of Rome is a highly significant position. Anti-Roman Catholicism is a real thing among the congregation, however (as well as among many Monks/Priests) so any move towards concilliation is always controversial. (I don’t know if the feeling is mutual within the R.C. Church. but never heard it from my Mother’s side.) There was major paranoia this summer amodst rumors that Pope Francis would attend the pan-Orthodox Council.
    No point downplaying things imho.
    Note: Greek, Russian, Romanian (and so on) Orthodox refer to themselves as that; Orthodox; or Eastern Orthodox.

  97. Miletus says:

    Important point to note:
    The Eastern and Roman Catholic Churches are not in communion with one another. Neither Church considers the other to be heretical.
    As it was once put to me: “You cannot be both a Christian and a Heretic”. Orthodox still consider Roman Catholic’s to be Christian but not in communion with Christ’s Church. To put this in perspective, Orthodox consider Mormon’s to be heretics and non-Christian.

  98. Annem says:

    It is certainly true that these churches are not in communion with each other but Byzantine Orthodoxy and Catholicism do not have the serious divergence [except politically] with each other than you find with the national churches that were expelled early on. However, the first group to be ejected from the body of the church, their theology branded as “heretical” through a church council was the “Nestorians” or “Church of the East.” [This was actually good for the Christians in Iran who had run into trouble with their Zoroastrian rulers when their archenemies, the Byzantines, declared Christianity to be their state religion. Now their version of Christianity was free from association with the enemy.] Second to be ejected was the “Monophysites.” What the Assyrians [Church of the East] and the Syriac Orthodox and their Catholic equivalents, the Chaldean and the Syriac Catholics [Jacobites] share in common is the use of some form of classical Aramaic/Syriac as a liturgical language and as native languages, modern Assyrian or Syriac, though some nowadays are more fluent in Arabic unless they live in their traditional villages in Syria and Iraq. Because they also view themselves as an ethno-linguistic group, not just Christian sects, that is how they approach the contemporary struggles in both countries. Under Christian Byzantine rule, these communities, like the Copts in Egypt, suffered due to their beliefs. This is one reason why the indigenous population, though not the Byzantine rulers, did not view the arriving Muslim conquerors as any worse that what they were facing. In fact, it took up to another two hundred years before the majority of the population of those conquered lands converted to Islam to benefit from the advantages of belonging. As they did, it caused serious problems within the ruling Arab elite who saw “Islam” as the province of the Arabian warrior tribes, not the inferior peasants and merchants who inhabited the cities.

Comments are closed.