In light of the media reaction to the abominable stupidity of the actions of various right wing fringe groups in Charlottesville I regretfully feel I must re-open SST for business so that this can be discussed.
The whole CNN "crew," John King, Jake Tapper, Fariid Zakariya and their colleagues elsewhere are virtually foaming at the mouth in a competition to be the most extreme, the most condemning, the most hostile toward traditional American culture.
The agitprop technique in the case of the Charlottesville violence is simple but seemingly universal in the left main stream media. The nut-jobs who went to Charlottesville to "protect" the statue of a man who would not have wanted to be "protected" by them are implied to be representative of all Americans who do not wish to see a new, socialist, globalist paradigm for the US.
The intention of the antifa left and its Democratic Party and media wings seems clear. It is to silence through shaming, ostracism, loss of income and perhaps eventually legally anyone who does not submit to be assimilated into a new collective consciousness in an America that believes itself to be a sinner country. pl
A note on comments: Criticism of US policy is acceptable on SST. Condemnation of the US as a sinner nation is not and will not be published.
The right would do well to excise any association with the hitlerite saluting, ‘blood and soil’ chanting Nazi wannabes and their torchlit pseudo Nuremburg rallies.
It is still the land of the free and the home of the brave, but Nazis? Nein, Danke.
“It is to silence through shaming and perhaps eventually legally anyone who does not submit…”
Shaming is pretty mild by the standards of the world. It seems as though the targets ought to be able to stand up for themselves. Especially give the quality of some of their rhetoric.
Ive seen more breast beating from the Left today then when BLM killed 5 Dallas PD, or when a Bernie Bro nearly killed a Congressman. Or when the Bernie Bro DID kill a GOP committeemember.
The freak out you see from our current oracle/priest caste relates to how their sinecures are being threatened, as well as their way of life. Can’t live downtown, use Lyft to head to the cool new gastropub serving artisinal whiskey when you might encounter partisans. No no no.
Strap in folks. This has been building since the Left decided “hate whitey” was acceptable discourse. Now you got whites against the wall and they’re fighting back. Communists and their foreign pets SHOULD be scared.
You are right. I had not made it strong enough. pl
This is what you get when certain groups are allowed to be ‘victims’ and others are demonized. The return of the repressed. I’m ashamed to admit it but deep in my heart, along with the sadness and dismay, was the feeling “It’s about time that we pushed back ; fight not flight”.
I thought we were a democracy. The Charlottesville city government voted to get rid of the Lee statue. If the right wingers or conservatives want to keep it, vote in a new city government.
I’m white, and don’t at all feel my back to the wall. Just saying.
I told my wife this morning how interesting it is that many of the demonstrators (granted, mostly on the “Robert E. Lee” side) were carrying firearms, as is their right in VA — but no reporting to highlight that there was no violence involving those weapons. The auto death was horrible, but demonstrations such as this could get much, much, more violent if the proper perspective is not applied. The media is serving mostly to churn up the public unrest, imo.
Our news media has long tended to the left. They and the entertainment media (if there’s a difference) feed the public propaganda daily.
But, now it’s too organized, all seeming to be in lockstep, as if there is an overall plan operating or a single group orchestrating and directing all the various leftist groups.
There has to be a fairly large amount of money being funneled in. The leftist protesters show too soon in too large crowds at too many different locations. Organized and often supplied with many professional made signs and banners.
I hope this doesn’t conspiracy theoryish, but I’m sure others must notice that many of the protesters don’t seem to be just haphazard mobs.
Good for you. pl
I have no objection to that. Charlottesville is a blue island in a sea of red. elections work several ways. pl
Oh good. I guess we can all go home now that internet users “Faulkner” has weighed in.
Well, someone else just fell off the alt-right Christmas list and joins the Kushner-Soros-Clinton-McMaster cabal:
I’ve never sat down with Steve Bannon and said, ‘Hey are you a white nationalist or a white supremacist?’ But I think the toleration of it by Steve Bannon is inexcusable,” Scaramucci said.”
He also appeared to suggest Bannon was chief among the leakers in the White House.
“It’s his decision, but at the end of the day, the President has a very good idea of who the leakers are inside the White House,” said Scaramucci.
I’d bet John, Jake and Fariid are pretty high up on the Chief of Staff’s speed dial.
So, you think that Kelly is a leaker? Amusing. pl
The neo-Nazis going to Charlottesville don’t represent all of the right, but neither do the antifa represent all of the left. (I don’t know anyone in my social groups who support them.) I don’t think we should suppress free speech by forbidding protests, or counter-protests, but violence should not be tolerated. I do think that the attempt to silence your opposition by running them over is a bit much.
FWIW, I’d leave all statues of Confederate generals and the like in place — we can’t refight the Civil War or the WBS; the region and the nation’s history is what it is and can and should be given due weight, learned from, and pondered, not be shunted aside. Besides, how much pain does it cause an African-American citizen of today, or anyone else for that matter, to see an image of Robert E. Lee in a public square? His existence, deeds, and historical aura are news to anyone? And why give the White Supremacist ass—– an excuse, even though they don’t need one and no doubt will hunt for and find others? But why give them one that “overlaps,” so to speak, as this one does — let them stand revealed for what they are; don’t let them hide behind a defense of Robert E. Lee.
I also note the WS crowd’s chant of the night before, “Jews will not replace us.” Who knew THAT was an issue? And where did that come from? Sounds to me like an externally crafted and then passed-on meme, not something that would just bubble up in the minds of that crowd, at least not in that odd (“replace”?) form. But maybe so. (Others here may have information on this.)
Likewise, perhaps, I noted at least two would-be meme-shaping posts on Facebook yesterday:
1) Identified by name (but the name was completely wrong) the driver of the car, and said he was an anti-Fascist activist (thus the act was a false-flag operation?)
2) A post that used the now-apprehended driver’s correct name but said that he was “a registered Dem.”
The Left is a hydra. You can find Soros money all of the left.
It looks as if the comments are displayed in reverse chronological order.
Yes it does sound conspiracy theorish and ridiculous. Is it to hard for you to believe that there is a big population of people who will come out to stop neo-nazis and white supremecists from marching in their town? I just came back from a vigil in my town (Brooklyn) where hundreds of people gathered in solidarity to shut down white supremacist hatred. I can assure you it was not organized by some “singe group.” I wonder if you have ever taken to the streets to exercise the rights given in this country. I have many times for years and will continue and never have we been funded and orchestrated by such well heeled groups as you imply.
Interesting you characterize lone fairly crazed individuals as representatives of BLM or Bernie Sanders. Those were horrible acts but not reflective of the organizations as you imply.
Meanwhile, many of us living in our mixed, progressive culture abhor what has been happening in white rural America as a result of policies from all the elite driven poliitcal parties. You can have your culture there while we have ours which has nothing do with eating at gastropubs, etc as you claim. It is about lving in a diverse culture where we thrive in ways I imagine you can never understand.
It’s sad that today’s U.S. MSM will do anything and everything to run down the U.S.. Don’t they (King, Tapper, and crew) realize they’re ruining the home of their own children and grandchildren in the process?
What ever happened to positive reinforcement?
I don’t watch television. My wife and I stopped nearly ten years ago. We do follow the news on the web, but we tend to read Canadian and European sources.
The reason we stopped watching television was at least partly because what people now tend to view as left wing opinion is in fact nothing but the Clintons and their successor’s usurpation of what was once none as the “left” by nothing more than a diversion into gender politics in order to take the public’s attention away from their systematic looting of the country.
Clinton and Obama have made an appalling travesty of the real left.
A plague on both of them.
The plot is revealed! By none other than by the brave Molly McKew:
^See? EVERTYTHING bad that happens is done by the Russians! Oh, Putin the Almighty – how does he manages to do all this stuff and find some time for fishing trips? 😉
who do not wish to see a new, socialist, globalist paradigm for the US
Oh no, the US is perfectly safe from that! The paymasters of the Free and Independent Western Media ™ will do everything in their power to prevent the ascend of the real Left-wing (i.e. pro-masses, anti-rich) politics.
Blog admin question: Unlike before the “vacation,” the comments are appearing in reverse chronological order – that is, most recent just beneath the “Comments” heading. Is this something new? Or perhaps has a setting been inadvertently flipped? It took me a few minutes to catch on to the fact that responses were appearing before the referenced comment.
I doubt the Ten Commandments were written for groups, else the salvation offered would be as well. That pretty well discounts the “sinner nation” issue.
Both right and left have their crazies, but it seems that crazy is the order of the day. With most left-leaning crazies being anti-gun, anti-Christian and anti-white – the handwriting is on the wall. Eventually, other things will be upon the wall if they keep pushing this agenda and aggravating everyone not of their beliefs.
Tyler – How in the world can you believe that “whites are against the wall”. Whites dominate the commercial and political world. Perhaps whites are not quite as dominant as they were 50 years ago but they sure continue to control the majority of power in this country. I’ve been a Democrat for a long time and “hate whitey” discourse would never be allowed. In NJ the State Democrat party organization which I am part of is probably 80% white.
I thought the world had rid itself of the thought that the white aryan race was,by nature,superior. The neo-nazis at Charlottesville would like to resurrect that concept and I would hope that you would not agree with them. Perhaps you can illuminate your threat to “communists and foreign pets”. I am sure you would tag me with that label since I am a Jewish liberal. Tell me what I should be scared of!!
Why would they, they are just promoting those “traditional American Values”.
Please don’t call those creeps the “Robert E. Lee” side. They are not on his side and are only doing harm to his memory.
This entire thing is staged and ridiculous!! By whom and why now is the question?
But in all honesty, this is beyond politics. What is being foisted on us as a people is a pervasive system of divide and conquer where our emotions are agitated and dissension continually peddled in order to keep us at each other’s throats
If I were Trump I’d blame this whole Charlottesville thing on Putin and the Russians.
“as if there is an overall plan operating or a single group orchestrating and directing”
Actually, the themes and variations are researchable, and the appearance of coordination is a hypothesis that could be explored.
However, I see vast generalizations reposed as normative or proven facts about the (obviously) more complex sociological mechanics. This has reached its end point in the conflation of: right/left establishments, Hollywood, social justice advocates, LGBTQ communities, liberals, neo-liberals, progressives, antifa, BLM, collectivists, coastal cosmopolitans, MSM, marxists, travelers of cultural marxism, members of the swamp, .01%, all immigrants, most college professors, almost all social scientists, almost every artist, wall street, most women, into a single willful behemoth, a leviathon, come to implement by virtue of their “acting in consort,” utopian social engineering able to end America as some know it today.
The factual events and relations that would demonstrate either coordination or the validity of the generalization, seem to be occulted! Satan is apparently very sharp and on his game nowadays.
“This represents a turning point for the people of this country,” said Duke in video uploaded to Twitter by Indianapolis Star photojournalist Mykal McEldowney. “We are determined to take our country back. We are going to fulfill the promises of Donald Trump. That’s what we believed in, that’s why we voted for Donald Trump. Because he said he’s going to take our country back. That’s what we gotta do.”
In a tweet, Trump condemned “hate” and “violence” in response to clashes at the rally on Saturday, though he did not call out white supremacists in particular.
Duke responded to Trump’s tweet by stating that Trump should “remember” that “White Americans’ were the ones to put him in office.
The Charlottesville City Council, the Charlottesville PD and the VSP, under the direction of McAuliffe, should be held to account for the security arrangements, or lack thereof, provided to a rally with a legal permit issued under the orders of a federal judge.
All of the events appearing in the national news yesterday occurred within a 4-6 block radius of Cville PD HQ. I am shocked that there was no police presence on Water St, which is where the car ramming incident occurred. Truly an accident ( or worse) waiting to happen.
In the corporate world, this might be called negligence.
Unite the Right had a permit. Antifa did not. Yet the police stood by while Antifa gathered and then declared the assembly by Unite the Right illegal and stood by as battle began.
This kind of anarcho-tyranny is pushing us closer to civil war than anything anyone with tiki torches can do.
I cannot verify the claim that antifa and BLM -both of whom were there in numbers– didn’t have a permit. I have read conflicting claims about the subject.
What I do know is that the local organizer of the rally has claimed that the police did not provide previously agreed upon security arrangements.
What I want to know is why the counter protesters were permitted to fill the streets surrounding the park where the rally was scheduled to attend. The park is little more than green space with some seating and the Lee statue, and it is one city block wide. My understanding is that standard police tactics are to ensure that a significant physical distance is maintained between opposing sides in such a protest. To a large extent, that didn’t happen.
Ever since I can remember the rhetoric from the left has been explicitly anti-white especially if they vote right.
The true problem is the country has been betrayed by their politicians and the multi-national corporations for a generation now. It was not inevitable. Trade has always been political since the times of the Roman Republic and before. Its common sense.
Lose a 1/3 of your industrial base in less than 20 years along with its employment and the small businesses it supports locally. Have a population explosion to the south in a third world country. 50,000,000 increase in 30 years.
Add in a economy that is basically sink or swim and a political party that believes its path to power is in identity politics and the other political party is also beholden to the same donor class. Well, temperature begins rising.
80% of the people could care less if the stock market is rising. Also, I doubt the veracity of the employment rate. The Labor Force Participation rate is lower than Europe’s. The iron hand in the silk glove that neoliberalism represents is slowly but surely tearing this country apart. And I see no leadership.
If we truly had an economy were everybody was benefiting or all boats rising then you wouldn’t see this tension. And last. Human beings being what they are will always resort to their own kind due to evolutionary pressures. Just look at Algeria’s Civil War. It can go bad fast. And fear drives it. I doubt the United States has the unity to persecute any major war. Maybe a defensive war for survival. For the record I consider myself an independent and a Christian.
Tyler – good to see you in action again but I’m afraid I must disagree with you for once. If Middle America does get associated, however incorrectly, with neo-Nazism and white supremacism it’ll be disastrous. I’ve seen it happen here, when Middle England was successfully associated with extremism and racism during a recent election campaign. Nearly lost us what little chance we had.
On the specific issue, for me General Lee is associated with high endeavour and a gallant cause. For most he is now associated with slavery and resistance to “progress”. That’s just the way it is, and unless you undertake to educate your fellows on a massive scale that’s the way it’s going to stay.
Charlottesville is therefore debatable ground and the banners aren’t ones anyone’s going to want to line up under either. If the Trump or the Sanders movements, or indeed our Brexit movement, meant anything it meant large numbers of people saying without equivocation “This isn’t the way we want things run.” That’s ground clear enough to fight on, surely? Why get drawn on to such dubious terrain as this?
On the wider issues, the fight is between the people and the complex of interest groups that have usurped their government. It’s not a personal fight, and if it ever got personal it’d mean we’d lost, so any guns around would be better kept for your elks. Set those interest groups that have got out of hand aside and subsidiary issues are resolvable.
As yet none of us in the Western countries have shown much ability to use the constitutional mechanisms available to us. If we haven’t got the wit to combine to do that, then we’re not going to have the wit to do anything else and we get what’s coming to us.
We’re very easily sidetracked when it comes to politics. Most of us live in a dreamworld in which politics means only gender or identity politics. A dangerously large number of people believe in cargo cult economics. It’s also ridiculously easy to set us to fighting among ourselves – did you see any cronies on the streets in Charlottesville? Or at the barricades on the Maidan?
Because we’re so easily sidetracked we’re probably going to get what’s coming to us. So will most of the 1%, though that’s no consolation. Then, I suppose, the long guns will come out, for what good they’ll do. This is not a peasant society we’ve inherited and it doesn’t automatically repair itself. System failure in such a complex system leaves only rubble behind.
The hope was that the “populist” movements in Europe, and more particularly in America, represented the first stirrings of a general recognition that the course we in the West are on is dangerously wrong and that we need a new one. Too early to give up that hope; but if we allow ourselves to be sidetracked by the Blut und Boden merchants we’ve seen trying their paces recently both in Continental Europe and in the States, that hope gets extinguished.
The plan was to get us fighting amongst ourselves to distract us from the unprecedented theft, wealth transfers and destruction of the middle class. It seems the plan is working pretty well.
Cee and jdledell
I hope you noticed that I did not say “white,” or “Gentile.” I said “traditional American culture.” pl
Too true. Although they had help from bush 43’s appointments to the Board of Public Broadcasting. And the Bush’s (every generation) did their fair share of looting.
If Trump wanted to get really edgy he could tweet out that this looks like a false flag and not-so-subtly suggest DNC or CIA mischief making.
On most commutes before I retired, I’d drive by the Civil War soldier facing South in Alexandria, VA. I thought it was sad every time I saw it. It is tragic that it will be moved to the Potomac riverside to be forgotten along with the lessons from all the spilled blood. I firmly believe what at play is not right verses left. It is the elite exploiting the little people using identity politics to get richer. Americans have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is being taken away from us. Unless the rule of law is applied equally to all, rich and poor without preference for race or region; the USA will split apart again to replay a new bloody Civil War.
“Appomattox” is not going anywhere. A state law protects it in that spot, facing south. The law was passed in the 19th Century when the statue was installed. The present mayor, a woman from the North approached the UDC who are the owners and asked if they would consent to move it. They said no. The General Assembly in Richmond said that as long as the UDC wanted it there
it would stay there in accord with the law. So, to paraphrase someone about the Lee statue in Charlottesville, if the Northern people want to move it they have to change the state legislature. The latest project of the anti-confederates is to get the federal highway commission to change the name of Route One in Alexandria. In the northern end of town it is called Jeff Davis Highway. pl
Perhaps the only true impeachable act committed by a US president in recent years was GW Bush’s referring to the Constitution as a piece of paper. Didn’t he take an oath to preserve, protect and defend it? Apparently GWB’s is now the prevailing view. Without the rule of law, we are doomed.
turcopolier: It’s part of his job.
Whether ordered or on his own, he knows one of Bannon or McMaster has to go. The media is just another tool in the toolbox.
What is “traditional American Culture.” As an African American woman I don’t have fun memories of the 50′, 60′ you people seem to remember so fondly. Again, What is this culture you speak of enlighten me.
This reminds me of a time some years back when I was in Seoul. I got a frantic call in my hotel from my assistant back in the home office asking me if I was safe as she saw on CNN that Seoul was burning with riots. I told her that I was all over the city earlier that day and didn’t see anything. When I asked the concierge about the riots he told me in a bored manner that yes a few students were rioting near the university.
News has melded into entertainment here in the US and what we have is a version of the many Reality TV shows. With 24×7 news, nuance can’t sell. It has to be hysteria all the time. Everything is Breaking News. And the more hysterical the reporting the better for business.
What we saw was a fringe group of neo-nazis who received a permit for a public gathering. They were opposed by antifa, another fringe group. This then naturally got out of hand, not as bad as the race riots in the 60s, however, which was then blown way out of proportion by the virtue signalling spokesmodels on TV.
The liberals claim they are all for diversity and push the agenda of gender and other identity politics issues. But they will not countenance diversity of opinion, as we saw in Berkeley and at Google. The neo-nazis and their ilk usurp Confederate symbols while distorting the history of the Confederates. The intolerance of the liberals and the northeners of Confederate symbolism shows how much they are what they decry in their opponents.
IMO, the rabid mindset of the MSM to achieve conformity of their groupthink among the public is resulting in their non-stop agitprop. None of this would be as much of a problem if the economy were growing and median real household income was rising. But, what we have is rising income inequality and concentration of economic and political power. This is a consequence of the growing scale and scope of government and their interference to protect the politically well connected who fund the political campaigns and provide the revolving door of all the political appointees. The DNC/Podesta emails conclusively prove this nexus with the staffing of the Obama administration.
The political system, the media oligopoly and the various other oligopolies have it all rigged. We should expect more Bread & Circuses to keep us entertained and divided.
There are multiple blogs on the right pointing to the tactics of antifa/BLM of surrounding protestors being similar to what was done at Berkely. Some news blogs on the right are trying to link the police ‘stand down’ to an order from Governor McAuliffe. The truth of that won’t come out for a few more days.
The “stage” was certainly set so that inevitable violence would occur. The car ramming was what was unexpected.
You’ll notice as a society we aren’t talking about the Google Manifesto, “Goollag” Google manager’s black lists and the destruction – socially, emotionally and economically of those who don’t conform to the left’s Diversity agenda within that company.
The fact you think cosmopolitan elite “white” is the sum of the white experience shows you got no clue what is going on.
Yeah, as a Jewish liberal who constantly talks out of both sides of your mouth you are the problem
As I see it, the white nationalists were acting stupid with their Hitler salutes, etc. However, that is beside the point. They lawfully assembled to speak their mind as is their Constitutional right. The antifa’s bussed in from all over the country to physically confront and silence the white nationalists.
Those are the facts and everything is just BS virtue signaling and bias, if not outright bigotry.
And, given those facts, the antifa’s are responsible for whatever trouble ensured. That the media and politicians both left and right are blaming everything negative that happened on the white nationalists, demonstrates that this country may no longer value the Constitution and would prefer something else wherein a Ministry of Truth and Justice decides who can assemble and speak their minds (and be employed and, perhaps, to even walk around in public or maybe on the planet itself).
And here’s how the virtue signaling contest works out; today it’s condemning the Confederacy and the South generally and the white nationalists. Because they’re mean and hateful. Tomorrow it’s the whole country….because the country was founded by slave holders and the union, after finishing the Civil War turned its attention to killing Indians and “stealing” their land (actually, there’s much of that talk already in academia and other circles). If the Confederate flag represents slavery, the US flag represents killing Indians, vicious capitalism…and on and on….virtue has no limit you know.
Once you buy into the virtue signaling and replace the Constitution with it, we’re all heading into a dark dark place where a priestly cast decides everything at their whim. And that is the law. Robespierre was beheaded by his own guillotine.
And I suppose someone is going to say I’m blaming the antifa’s for the car attack and resulting woundings and fatality. I’m not. I do object to the media and politicians tarring huge classes of people as being represented by the section 8 that drove the car. That’s what bigots do. They take the bad actions of a person that happens to be of the same race/color/creed, etc. of a hated class and then say “See? That’s how they all are”.
I don’t want to exchange my freedom to be “protected” by bigots from things that upset them.
most recent first is an improvement, doncha think?
Everyone to the Right of Stalin is a “Nazi”. Hitler was a piker when it came to mass murder.
How about instead of people rushing to shout down “Nazis” they ask why the Left is fine with communist flags always being flown at rallies.
The two leading ideologies in America are “leave me alone” and “We goodthinkers deserve to hold your leash”. You think because you disavow the “Nazis” that the Left is suddenly going to be fine with anything less than total capitulation? You’re deluding yourself.
What is coming has been decades in building. I didn’t make the new rules, but I’m not going to handicap myself because the Boomer generation who got us to this point thinks its mean.
“The nut-jobs who went to Charlottesville to “protect” the statue of a man who would not have wanted to be “protected” by them”
I’ve been thinking the same for the last couple of days. What a sad sorry if not downright tragic irony. I’m not sure what’s the worst for Lee, having his statue removed this way or being defended by Nazi wannabes.
As for the media, I wonder if they’re that blind to what they’re doing. You don’t willingly polarize the part of the political spectrum which has the most guns and experience of using them, it’s just madness. Not unless you actually want to provoke an open armed revolt. And then it would be even crazier.
Since comments can be misinterpreted, that’s not what I want to happen, but the kind of outcomes that – seen from outside – alas seem likely to happen if things continue to spiral downhill with opposing sides hardening and radicalizing. At some point, adults should step in and tell both sides, including extremists, to stop and calm down a bit, cease with the most outlandish requests and desires from both sides, and begin to talk to each other like fellow humans – but that’s not yet happening and I’m not sure who would do it; maybe if the former presidents decided to talk seriously to their own…
On the bright side, the ACLU is standing up for the white nationalists’ right to protest. Maybe there’s hope.
There were a lot of Confederate tribal units and the last CSA general to die was Stand Watie. There were seats reserved for the tribes in the Confederate Congress. pl
You are way off base about jdledell. he is SST’s best source about the current state of the IDF. pl
No, they can’t have their culture because the coastal demographics are doing their level best to swamp it with assorted imports from the global south, and imposing liberal legal and social norms. That’s why you’ve finally succeeded in mobilizing white identity politics, which you characterize as ‘supremacism’. Do these whites want to rule over other races? No, they just want their own space. Is it to hard for you to believe that there is a growing body of people who will come out to stop xenophiles and white masochists from compromising the ethnic integrity the nation their ancestors built? No one asked if we wanted European nations turned into multicultural swamps. Kennedy in fact promised the Hart-Cellar act would not affect America’s demographic composition.
Dispossession is something any national community should hate, and is an official sin when it happens to non-whites (see gentrification).
Progs, who have no conception of a spiritual organic unity, think flitting between eclectic vestiges of ‘culture’, decontextualized, commodified artifacts having distinction without difference, all ultimately deferring to liberal norms and $$$, represents the peak of human potential which must be forcibly imparted to the provincial cretins. The opposite is in fact true. Big city dwellers lack an inner form arising from atomization; thus their preferred mode of being is a degraded existentialism.
Are you not too young to remember anything of that period? I would say; faith community, family, obedience to law. Cee can perhaps further comment. pl
Yes. Getting to the top of the virtue pyramid is going to a very confusing shaky trip. I expect many inversions every so often.
Both neo-liberal and socialist/economic populist positions share the assumption what people really want is optimal calibration and distribution of resources within a society. The two camps squabble over what exactly constitutes an optimal economic order.
Man doesn’t live by bread alone. Trump voters in key swing states like Ohio specifically cited concerns over cultural encroachment and alienation BEFORE economic issues. Real opposition to the current system means placing spiritual, cultural, and ethnic values ahead of a self-serving economic logic.
Inveighing against the 1% adopts the discourse of the system and is thus thus effectively managed dissent accomplishing very little (see Occupy Wall street). Placing ethnic, cultural, and spiritual values first, however, really freaks the elites out, and so they assiduously suppress these expressions as ‘hate.’ The only succeed in instigating the concerns to express themselves in a more extreme form. Turning the entire state of California into a post-American Greater Mexico? Everyday politics. Object to this process? Well, you must be a Nazi bro.
I’m glad to see you come to jdledell’s defence. Quite apart from being an excellent source on the IDF, he’s a very sound commentator, whose comments are always good to read.
Also, thank you for ‘restarting’ SST. For many of us it has become an addiction; if we don’t get our ‘fix’ several times a day, the gap becomes a bit bothersome!
If a mob attacks your car with baseball bats while you are still in the car, and you hit some of them while trying to escape with your life, you have acted in self-defense.
I remember “White only or Colored” signs. We have progressed as a nation, but it always comes back to blame for White People when you all feel you’re not getting what owed to you for just being white. You complain about the Left, but you voted for a reality star created via scripted reality tv by the left. Now we have White People once again thinking they have a savior to restore “White” America.SAD!
“Everyone to the Right of Stalin is a “Nazi”. Hitler was a piker when it came to mass murder.”
Oh, please – enLYTTEN us! How was hitler a “piker” in the genocide.
Some “White Americans” are now once again going to take back their country. From who? The Black President is still President Obama. White America is their own worst enemy. Trying to repudiate Obama voted Trump. A coward. These people don’t understand Obama is secure in his own skin (Black). Trump is a insecure rich White man. So take back your country whatever that means.
Well when he talks about the IDF Ill listen. Right now he’s talking about the state of whites in America and obviously clueless.
I think it went out the window when Trump ran on a platform of “America’s Not Great Anymore”.
Can the “professionally offended” busy bodies, both left and right, get fired? Seems like that would solve quite a few issues in one go.
FWIW as an outsider I spent a couple of weeks in Savannah GA a few years ago and didn’t observe any great problems with the statuary there. As a white Brit I didn’t think it was difficult to walk between my friends’ house and the city centre through “the ‘hood” (although the bursting gunfire at the New Year gave me pause for thought as I tried to sleep!).
Is it possible that there is agitation of the antifa/anti-Confederacy scene in the USA?
Lots of tribal units served in the Union Army also. Ha-Sa-No-An-Da AKA Ely Parker, a Seneca, was a Brigadier in the Union Army. He was chief engineer of the 7th Division at Vicksburg – and later was Grant’s Adjutant. He was present at Appomattox Courthouse and helped write up the surrender documents. He claimed that General Lee stared at him for a moment and then Lee QUOTE…extended his hand and said, ‘I am glad to see one real American here.’ENDQUOTE
You are right that Lee would never have wanted or needed the protection of nutjobs. And would never have condoned it. He will always be celebrated in our memories. The nutjobs should be raising money to erect statues of him on private land if they wish to honor him. I’ll donate.
General Stand Watie did save General Van Dorn’s retreating Texans and Arkansans at the Battle of Pea Ridge. But he was never well loved within Indian Territory. History shows Stand Watie and his Cherokee Rifles as mostly mixed bloods. Full bloods were resentful of the Georgians who banished them to Oklahoma and did not usually support the Confederacy unless forced into it. Plus Stand Watie chased Chief Opothelaya’s Creeks and Billy Bowlegs Seminoles into Union lines in Kansas over the “Trail of Blood on Ice” where 2000 mostly women and children died of exposure and disease. After that Billy Bowlegs (So-Nuk-Mek-Ko) joined the Union Army as a Captain and was commended for his actions and bravery. Osprey Publishing has good coverage of him and of the battles in and around the Indian Territories.
As for me I never heard the term ‘antifa’ before your post. I am against Anarchists and Communists, but looking up the Wiki you linked to, I note they are primarily anti-fascist. Nothing wrong with that. My father and uncles fought against fascism, and my father payed for that with many quarts of blood and some 88mm fragments. He was not a socialist and not a globalist, neither am I.
You’re essentially talking about small town cops with little,if any, experience with a violent mob – much less TWO violent mobs.
“The Charlottesville city government voted to get rid of the Lee statue.”
Against the will of the city residents, from my understanding.
From my understanding, the tiki torch boys were saying “you will not replace us”, not Jews. Also, I heard the driver was a registered Rep. but who knows. Lastly, the mayor of Charlottesville is Jewish. This whole thing is starting to look like a set-up to me. One more needle and need Donald’s fingernail.
Anyone know a good reference for the iconography of the Alt-right?
A lot of the people in published photos were wearing different badges and waving many different flags. I saw a lot of KKK symbols, Vanguard America flags, but what is with the black cross of St Andrew?
Also, I saw the American flag defaced with some symbol (the picture wasn’t clear). Anyone know that outfit?
I agree with this post but for the use of the word “socialist” instead of “neoliberal.” I consider myself to be a socialist on economic issues, but I grew up in a small rust belt city that’s been savaged by free trade and unfettered immigration. I also despise censorious PC culture and the way it shuts down serious discussions of important issues.
The Democratic “leadership” and their stooges in the MSM use their attacks on traditional American culture deliberately in order to divide the many tens of millions of us who have to get up and go to work at real jobs every day so that we don’t rise up against them (and the Republicans and Trump who do the same thing on the other side) and threaten their cushy places at the top of America’s hierarchy. But they aren’t socialists any more than Trump is a fascist.
Dear Colonel and birturner,
I would add respect and politeness, and generally leaving folk alone if they mind their own business. Maybe also (file under community) service. Still common outside the urban enclaves. I also have seen traditional American culture still survives in black rural Alabama and Louisiana.
From the Cambridge dictionary:
Culture: the way of life of a particular people, esp. as shown in their ordinary behavior and habits, their attitudes toward each other, and their moral and religious beliefs:
[ U ] He studied the culture of the Sioux Indians.
I would not say British culture is their view of the French or Irish, or Scottish.
Tyler, I can’t disagree with you that this has been building up for decades if not centuries. Many of this was created by our own governmental policies which thrust outrageous and immediate solutions to societal problems that had developed over hundreds of years. I grew up in the LA metro area and was one of the first victims of the mandated busing program. I was in an all white suburb out in the wonderful hills of southern California and forced to be bussed 25 miles into an all black high school where we were subjected to horrors that come from the “tolerated” anti-white racism that blacks (perhaps understandably) show. We had years of riots and murders in our high schools which were disruptive to the community. In my entire high school life we had zero team sports as too many children were being murdered at games. The city itself was originally an all white city but with the closure of the local General Dynamics plant many whites moved on to jobs elsewhere and the blacks came into the vacuum created by this and the “white flight” away from the city center. The city itself became a horrid place to live with rampant crime. Interestingly, I came back to the area to visit while on active duty perhaps 10 years later to find all the blacks gone and replaced by Vietnamese. The city was once again re-beautified, houses repaired and crime became (outwardly) back to normal or lower levels. This was accomplished not through city government or the police but because the Vietnamese deal with these problems directly usually through organized crime. You can see the same thing in other communities in California. Some dominated by Filipinos or other Asian minorities. In those communities things are relatively peaceful. Anyway, it is interesting to watch throughout the years how this evolves. California is a pressure cooker for liberal policies and is an interesting place to watch from a distance.
I recall many years (most of my career) being forced to attend what was once called race relations in the military with sometimes 1 week required attendance in civilian clothes to these training courses. I also as a medical person involved in the aftermath and cleanup of race riots in Graffenwoehr, Wildflecken, and Mannheim in the early 70’s. As an aside, I noticed last week that the Russian Army had a similar race riot in Tusyan between Tusyan contractors and regular white Russians. It reminded me of the situation in the US Army back in the ’70’s. Anyway, that mandatory training evolved into “sensitivity” training and I suppose now it has evolved further into multi-gender training as well. I am long gone from the military but that is how they always dealt with these issues in the past. The military being the overall social experiment in a controlled environment. But, those of you who served in the 70’s and 80’s might recall all the problems we had back then which I also recall a gigantic drug abuse problem in the Vietnam and post-Vietnam period. I understand that this is back in a big way now and in particular with SOF. So, history repeats itself.
As for Nazi (national socialism or nationalism) resurgence this is a sequelae of programs giving minorities advantages at the expense of the majority population. Of course, it will go this way in times of economic pressure. This is of no surprise to me whatsoever. Add in the dissatisfied veterans who were duped into fighting never ending wars without purpose to return home to a system that casts them aside and only gives lip service to them while providing complete benefits to “refugees” many of whom they wasted years of their lives fighting against. I am paraphrasing comments I read periodically but that is the general gist of their sentiments and I can’t disagree with them. Of course this is not unique to any country fighting a war and how the veterans are always treated once they are no longer needed and the country must dig it’s way out of whatever economic hole they are in because of whatever war (and it doesn’t seem to matter which side you were on) was fought. The problem now is we have 27 years in Iraq and 16 in Afghanistan with no end in sight not to mention the never ending provocations to other governments. We are currently on the brink of potential boots on the ground kinds of wars in Venezuela, North Korea, China, and Ukraine and some have the potential to be nuclear. This is all coming full circle and the societal blowouts are a symptom of a sick society brought on by governmental policies which cause far more harm than good.
I could go on and add in the people descended from veterans of the Civil War and how they feel betrayed. This problem runs deep and removing Confederate memorials isn’t going to make them go away. Changing history isn’t going to work either and is going to have a very large blowback and perhaps this is the beginning of what we are seeing now?
Agree completely. There’s nothing like herding people into an either/or, left vs right configuration to sidetrack them from the most important issue before us at the present time: whether we restore the US economy so that it provides a decent standard of living and expanding opportunity to as many people as possible. There are plenty of “deplorables” who would benefit from true universal health care, inexpensive college tuition for their children, a working infrastructure, and well-paying jobs. Uniting the US population around a program to achieve these goals is what most threatens the elites on all parts of the political spectrum. Moroever, such a program is not right or left. Rather, it’s a path toward domestic political stability and an overall better country–better in that it would allow people the opportunity to develop into contributing, thoughtful citizens, capable of fully participating in the Republic. When I look back to my childhood in the ’50s, what strikes me most is that the “me, me, me” sensibility that has dominated both the left and the right over the past 30 years or so was far less evident then. Obviously, there were people who were out to grab whatever they could, using whatever means available. That impulse toward oligarchy will, I fear, forever taint human society. But, in contrast to more recent times, most people just seemed more interested in helping each other out. They felt they were part of an enterprise larger than their individual selves. Maggie Thatcher’s statement that there is no such thing as society, there are just individuals, marked a radical shift away from that outlook, a shift that could prove terminal for the human race. (One other note: I do hope that people on the alt right are historically aware enough to realize that many groups of white Western heritage–European Catholics, Italians, Irish, Eastern Europeans, et al.–were considered to be racially inferior and on that basis brutally discriminated against in the US for many, many years. So, I’m a little confused about who nowadays merits inclusion into the ranks of the ethnically pure.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_units_of_Indian_Territory As you can see there were dozens of Indian units in the CS Army. If you are implying that the Indians in general favored the Union you are quite wrong. There were quite a few Indian individuals in the Union Army, I know of no units. The term antifa refers to leftist revolutionaries who wish to overthrow the bases of our civilization and culture to replace them with the world of “1984.” pl
I inadvertently deleted your comment. I an not muddled. You are. You failed to understand that I stated clearly that the fringe people who went to Charlottesville to raise hell are extreme examples of the millions and millions who resent and who will resist, hopefully politically, the antifa like you. you just don’t like my politics. pl
A “feu de joie” at midnight at New Years is merely celebratory in the South. Give it not a thought. The NAACP has had for many years a declared goal of eradicating the memory of the Confederacy. pl
I am curious, Colonel Lang, to know: Which side do you imagine would have had your support during the American colonial rebellion against the British Crown?
You aren’t muddled, but your posts on domestic politics are. Whether this is from curmudgeonly bile, sentimentality for a bygone America that never existed, or a fear of a new majority coalition, I know not.
That you blow up the laughably small antifa (sorry, I thought I was part of the borg, now I’m antifa? Cool!) reminds me of the New Black Panther party. Perhaps they are in league?
Truth be told, I don’t mind your politics, when I can understand them. I don’t like the antifa though. They have a tendency to smash Starbucks windows, and then where will I get my coffee?
I’ll break out my tricorn, butter churn and spinning wheel nonetheless, just in case those traditional American values need defending.
The last time I checked, the Virginia State Police and the Virginia National Guard are not small time operations. Both of them were on the scene and did nothing.
And McAuliffe is on the record saying that the State had planned for months for this, and that he thought the policing of the protests was a success.
Charlottesville City Council is up to their necks in this, and is dominated by Leftists. This includes the mayor, who was educated at Berkeley, teaches at UVa, and has long and deep connections with McAuliffe.
They used this event as a way to score political points. Disgraceful.
I will also point out that long after the police broke up the rally, and most of Unite the Right group had departed, they allowed Antifa and their supporters to roam the sidewalks and streets of downtown Charlottesville armed with bats and pepper spray.
There is no explaining this away, because the internet is filled with videos that show this.
I am pleased that you clarified your position and am proud to stand in opposition to the “brave new world” you anticipate and in defense of the America you say never existed. Strangely, I remember that America and preferred it. pl
Not sure what this “brave new world” is. If it’s anything like what Huxley imagined, I’ll sleep with the light on.
As for the America you remember, I have an informed opinion that the “good old days” were just old, never good.
I do think we can agree on antifa, because Starbucks.
I will comment on my own comment. There is an additional process happening now which we are only beginning to realize. This is the mass migrations of peoples from areas “without” to area “with” and includes perhaps first, areas like the US which have ostensibly welcomed anyone regardless of their background. To resist this overwhelming onslaught of peoples not in any way conditioned to become westerners or perhaps especially like white Americans it is the harbinger of a disaster of biblical proportions. The peoples being invaded, and eventually everyone is going to wake up and figure this out, but perhaps too late, and start active and perhaps genocidal resistance. I think we are seeing the early days of this in Europe and will soon be followed in the US. It is very possible it will break down on religious lines and that Muslims will be actively persecuted but it could also break down on other ethnic or socio-economic strata. But, the people being invaded are being thwarted by their own governments of which the liberals and open borders ilk represent. Soros and his minions come to mind and I believe his vision of the world is a complete disaster and will result in the deaths of billions of peoples. I could be wrong but it certainly looks like the opening gambits for this are already happening. It is inevitable as the planet cannot sustain the current human population so something must happen to reduce it which I believe is a natural phenomena. As Musk so blatantly states it is the self-aware computers we really need to fear (ala The Terminator) and I do not disagree with him. Perhaps we are already creating the new prima species which will inhabit this planet? I hope they are smarter and wiser than we are.
More clarification – paraphrasing “America was never good.” How old are you? pl
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
Sure many Indians also fought with the British. I doubt either the British Empire or the CSA would have given them any better deal than they got from the US government. Ultimately they were bystanders and not the main protagonists, trying to make the most of the poor hand they held.
I believe the Russians would have called the whole event a ‘provocation’ from the small minority in Nazi garb, the failure to disperse the counter protests, the organised nature of the counter protests, the obvious policing failures and the sensationalist media coverage. Very much like the orchestrated riot when Trump appeared in Chicago, I believe Trump subsequently picked up a lot of electors in and around Chicago in the Primary there.
Trump continues to impress with his condemnation of all sides, seems beyond the wit of the GOP to do so. I will be interested in the nature of the investigation that the DoJ under the leadership of Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III takes.
Ultimately some folks went looking for trouble, and they got some trouble.
economic inequality has much to do with this. It isn’t just about being white. Globalization is inevitable, but accelerating its adoption will cause a lot of side effects, including resentment. A symptom of it will be acts like this.
We can condemn this all we want, and ask statues be taken down until not a single one remains. That won’t change the fact that some of the natives don’t have an appreciation for the change. In fact, it just further infuriates them.
We focus too much on symptoms versus root problems here. That is what this all boils down to.
The Indian tribes had representation in the Confederate Congress. Is that not a difference? pl
Oh, you mean like the “will of the people was thwarted”; something like Clinton winning the popular vote?
This is an economic determinist explanation. Is that what you mean? pl
what does the popular vote in 2016 have to do with this subject? Perhaps California should secede. They could then put up statues of Jerry Brown. pl
I’m 50, but my informed opinion comes from processing the detailed health records of past populations, including those of some 40,000 union army veterans. It all makes for grim reading.
You are correct that “You will not replace us” is a standard chant among the WS crowd, but my understanding is that it was modified by many in this particular crowd to “Jews will not replace us,” stimulated perhaps by the emphasis placed on the the fact that the mayor of Charlottesville is Jewish.
It is unfortunate that he is Jewish. Do you attribute any special significance to that? pl
According to published photos, at a minimum, the following white nationalist organizations were at the march: KKK, Identity Evropa, The League of the South (black cross of St Andrews), the National Socialist Movement, the Traditionalist Workers Party, Vanguard America, and the Fraternal Order of Alt Knights.
Apologies to whoever said it first, but it had all the makings of a “pride” march. The fascists are coming out of the closet.
I hope you realize that the Union Army was better fed than the Johnnies. What is your point? That White people were better fed in the past or that the history of humanity is suffering? I have watched people starve all over the world and that starvation had to do with the means of production available to them, not to the actions of the US. pl
I see the American War of Independence as a political struggle, not one for utopian economic change. All my participant ancestors were with the anti-crown forces and I suppose I would have sided with them. You are a Brit. what would you have done? pl
“now it’s too organized, all seeming to be in lockstep, as if there is an overall plan operating or a single group orchestrating and directing all the various leftist groups.”
Funny you should say that.
Dinesh D’Souza just published “The Big Lie: Exposing the Nazi Roots of the American Left.” He seeks to introduce a new borrowed word into the infotainment lexicon, “Gleichschaltung” —
In fact there were tribal units in the Union Army. General Blunt had three regiments recruited from the Five Nations: Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Creek, and Seminole. The 2nd Regiment also had one company each of Delaware, Kickapoo, Quapaw, Seneca, and Shawnee, two companies of Osage, in addition to Cherokees. The Seminole Billy Bowlegs that I mentioned above led Alpha Company of the 1st Regiment at Cane Hill and saved victory for General Blunt when white Union troops from Iowa retreated.
It is true that early in the war the Confederacy gained dominance in the Indian Territory and managed to enlist many tribal units. However, except for Stand Watie, most turned neutral or went over to the Union when they never received the money, weapons and supplies promised by the Confederate Congress. Reportedly some of those weapons and supplies were sent but were misappropriated by Texas troops.
Furthermore the Confederate tribal units were promised that they would never have to leave their tribal lands and would only act only as a home guard. And except for Stand Watie’s 1st Cherokee Rifles, who fought in Missouri as the heroes of Pea Ridge, that was true. None of the others mentioned in your Wikipedia list of Confederate tribal units ever left the Indian Territories. On the other hand the Union tribal regiments fought in Kansas, Missouri and Arkansas in addition to fighting in the Indian Territory. By the way that Wiki list of Confederate tribal units you mention seems to me to have a lot of reiteration of subordinate units and dual-named units.
As for Charlottesville, General Lee would have used the flat of his sword to spank the protesters and lock them up in the monkey house (stockade). General Grant would have done the same with any of the violent counter-protesters on the other side. Maybe we should go back to the old days?
I wonder how many on either side of the protest could explain the significance of the correspondence between Robert E Lee and Lord Acton.
Sorry to be so chatty on this topic: Charlottesville has a very special place in my life: in the run-up to Iraq war I joined a thousand or more people on the Mall — in very cold weather — to protest impending war, then march to Virgil Goode’s office to present the petition we all had signed.
Some weeks later we boarded buses in Charlottesville and motored to DC to voice our opposition to war in Iraq.
It is painful to see that Charlottesville turned into this ugly thing.
Interesting that you did not include Antifas and BLM in your list of fascists in attendance.
One of the lefties here has asked if I condemn Nazis. I do. I would ask him if he condemns communist Vietnamese agitprop cadres who ruthlessly killed thousands of rural people in that country. pl
Just a few companies here and there.
“The Delaware tribe had a long history of allegiance to the U.S. government, despite removal to the Wichita Indian Agency in Oklahoma and the Indian Territory in Kansas. On October 1, 1861 the Delaware people proclaimed their alliance to the Union. A journalist from Harper’s Weekly described them as being armed with tomahawks, scalping knives, and rifles.
In January 1862, William Dole, U.S. Commissioner of Indian Affairs, asked Native American agents to “engage forthwith all the vigorous and able-bodied Native Americans in their respective agencies.” The request resulted in the assembly of the 1st and 2nd Indian Home Guard.
In Oklahoma, much of the Creek peoples sided with the Union. The majority of the Creek initially sided with the Union as two-thirds of the people preferred to be guided by the advice of their chief Opothleyahola. However, former Chief McIntosh sided with the South, whose leaders appointed him a colonel in the Confederate Army.” wiki
How would define “good”?
I should have put in, “you”, to Freudenschade, “how would YOU define good?’
The mayor being Jewish opened the door to this [from the Washington Post]:
‘Addressing another group, Richard Spencer mocked Charlottesville’s Jewish mayor, Mike Signer. “Little Mayor Signer — ‘See-ner’ — how do you pronounce this little creep’s name?” Spencer asked. The crowd responded by chanting, “Jew, Jew, Jew.”’
Yes, Spencer is a professional lighter of fuses, but the crowd got his message.
How significant? As Claude Rains said: “Gambling at Rick’s? I’m shocked.” Unfortunate? Just part of reality.
Three full regiments. About 30 companies 200 men each. Some of the Cherokee companies were deserters from Stand Watie’s Mounted Cherokee Rifles. A fourth regiment was being formed when Appomattox intervened.
The McIntosh brothers, like Stand Watie were half bloods or quarter bloods. In the 1830s, previous to the relocation of the Creeks from their homeland to Oklahoma, their father took bribes to give up Creek tribal land and endorse the move. He was executed by order of the Creek tribal council. There was much bad blood between Opothleyahola and the McIntoshes because of that. Same with the Cherokee, old grievances within the tribes were the primary determinant of which side they fought for. During the WBS the McIntosh brothers again took money (or the promise of money) from the Confederates without referring it to tribal council.
John D. Spencer’s book linked to above
Alvin W. Joseph’s book “The Civil War in the American West”
Feel better? Why is this Indian thing important to you? Part Cherokee? pl
There is something tangentially related to this, that I had always found a bit disturbing and amusing.
During 1990s, South Korean leader Kim Young Sam introduced a new term into vocabulary, “correcting history.” On one hand, this meant disposing of some historical buildings deemed humiliating (Japanese government building in Seoul), on other fronts, it meant introducing historical accounts that spun history in a direction more palatable to modern South Koreans. Needless to say that the latter, especially, caused a lot of problems, since history, both modern and ancient, were not so neatly aligned with modern sensibilities. Two events that cropped up in the decades thereafter deserve some mention.
First, the Japanese colonial rule in Korea was far more ambiguous than the modern propaganda would suggest. They alternated between being oppressive and tolerant. Korean artists, writers, and musicians who were jailed in 1930s for writing works with overly Korean themes were not only released from prison in early 1940s so that they could write pro-Japanese propaganda with Korean themes as the Japanese policy shifted, for example. This is the background in which Korean volunteers for kamikaze units took off to their deaths singing forbidden Korean nationalist songs. But, in both modern Japan and modern South Korea, the view of the past has been made into such cartoonish caricatures that such complexities do not and cannot exist. Whatever the historical facts are, especially if they are ambiguous and incomprehensible to the modern views, they must be “corrected” because the moderns are obviously right. One ironic result of all that was that many people who used to be lionized as patriots for their actions in 1930s were suddenly turned into collaborators for their actions in 1940s, and their nationalistic works from 1930s were suddenly transformed into unpleasant lies of hypocritical traitors.
I bring this up because this is not just a Korean or Japanese thing, but a distressingly common problem everywhere, perhaps at various times in history, but seemingly more prevalent today than only decades ago. If historical facts (or any other facts) don’t fit our sense of what history should be, then we should learn the actual history, not hurl invectives at it and try to “correct” it to fit our sense of propriety. But this seems to be increasingly an attitude lost on people of all political stripes. The liberals’ attempt to “correct” history of the Civil War to fit their image invited, in the recent instance, the crazies’ attempt to impose their own view of the history. Of course, with regards the Civil War, the tug of war over “correcting” the history has been going back and forth for well over a century now. One should think that the past lies far enough in the past that we should be able to start looking at the facts and appreciate the complexities and contradictions that don’t fit modern sensibilities. But no, we can’t do that. We have to transform the past in our own image, much the way we must transform far corners of the world–and this is not just liberal thing or a conservative thing, but so many among both of their lots.
As I understand it, Confederates actively sought out Indian volunteers, while the Union did not. When Ely Parker, the future Union general, came to either the governor of New York or Edwin Stanton (accounts differ on whom he met) and offered a regiment of Iroquois volunteers to fight for the Union cause, he was turned down with the reasoning that “this was a white man’s war” and it was none of the Indians’ business.
Much better, thanks. No Cherokee that I know of. But still have to admire Stand Watie at Pea Ridge and his last-to-surrender stand at the end of the war. And admire the Union’s 1st Indian Home Guard Regiment saving Blunt and the Iowans.
Small potatoes compared to what was happening elsewhere. But the west was critical in the WBS, something Jeff Davis failed to see. He got outflanked. Should have kept his Capital City in Montgomery. Lee could have seen it, but was never trusted in the inner sanctum during his short time advising Davis. But the biggest influence was being outnumbered four to one in men and materiel.
After long contemplation IMO it was the manpower shortage that was fatal. pl
Your understanding about Parker and the NY state Governor is correct IMHO. Fortunately Parker having done some engineering work in Grant’s home state of Illinois and meeting Grant there gave him an ‘in’ to a Union uniform. They lucked out in getting him. No comparable figure was in the Confederate Army. Although I am sure that there were many FFV Virginians in Lee’s ANV that like my father’s ancestors in Virginia perhaps had a few drops of Powhatan blood.
As for Confederates actively seeking to mobilize tribal units, and the Union not doing so – that was true very early in the war thanks to the efforts of Confederate General Albert Pike. He was a Bostonian turned Westerner and had worked with the tribes for years before the WBS. It was his initiative alone, NOT Richmond’s or Davis’s. However they did buy into his plans in order to secure a flank on Missouri and Arkansas. The Union finally realized their mistake especially during Chief Opothleyahola’s anabasis to Kansas, after which they started actively seeking out tribal allies.
re manpower shortage. IMO you are correct.
I did not see pictures of the Antifas and BLM waving flags with fascia on them, nor did I see them wearing badges allegoric to National Socialism. I attempted to identify the fascists by the symbols they were displaying.
If you can show how Antifas and the BLM are declaring themselves as fascists by wearing fascist iconography, I will gladly include them on the list.
Lemur – Might it be correct to say that the Sanders movement objected more to the distorting political and financial influence of the 1%, while the Trump movement placed more emphasis on objecting to the 1%, or their entourage, allowing or seeking the subversion of moral values? If so, does it matter why they objected as long as the target objected to is the same?
I don’t, by the way, believe that we can look to any politician and certainly not to such as Trump or Sanders for any sort of cultural or moral revival. That can only come from the people, if it comes at all. It can’t be imposed by politicians. The best the politician can do in such matters is to get out of the way.
Tyler – Could I raise a couple more points?
1. If you’re hoping to resolve the current problems by constitutional means then you have to hope that the 2016 Trump movement will prevail. It can only prevail if many support it. Therefore it’s foolish to drive away most of those 2016 Trump supporters by insisting they should identify with or sympathise with the Charlottesville neo-Nazis.
2. If you’re hoping to resolve our current problems by unconstitutional means than, with respect, I think you’re on a loser. Unconstitutional resistance would most likely fizzle out ignominiously, much as the Bundy Ranch did. If it didn’t fizzle out then you’d be looking at widespread civil disruption and Western societies are now too fragile to take such disruption. These are not the 1770’s.
Set aside Continental Europe – they don’t have a solid constitutional tradition and they’re trapped with a legacy we don’t share. In the UK and, it must be, in the US, there are vestiges of a constitutional tradition left and still a general popular adherence to that tradition.
Re-vivifying and using that tradition is the only way to go. Trump, given that Sanders failed, is therefore the best vehicle for constitutional popular resistance.
So it’s justified, not liking at all what happened in Charlottesville. Many of us have been strenuously objecting to our governments supporting Neo-Nazis in the Ukraine. Trump was supposed to pull away from that. But they’re still shelling Donetsk and Lugansk and we’re still supplying the Ukrainian Neo-Nazis with weaponry and training. On top of that some US Neo-Nazis are now doing their best to claim the Trump movement for white supremacism. Not a good time to be a reform minded constitutionalist, either in the English nor, I’d think, in the American sense.
If you are willing to consider (performances of) the music of the Baroque era
a part of “traditional American culture”
(for justification of that, see, e.g.,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handel_and_Haydn_Society – founded in Boston in 1815),
I would nominate for your consideration the following (performed in Seattle):
For a rather different part of traditional American culture,
there is the:
“our current problems by unconstitutional means than, with respect,” I thought you were a Brit. pl
Apparently, League of the South has adopted the black saltire on a white field. This was proposed some years ago by a man named Michael Cushman- who had Southern Nationalist News (or Network. I forget. I think he has a different website now.) because he and some of his associates felt that all of the Confederate flags had “too much baggage”. Or something to that effect.
I haven’t come across any photos of the defaced American flag. At least, not yet.
Talk about strange bedfellows.
Adding my thanks! Yes, FB Ali. It’s an addiction- also the place I head for when things look scary.
There aren’t many sane (or credible) people left on the internet.
I’ve also seen some data from confederate soldier, and while not exhaustive like the union army surgeons records, they made for even grimmer reading.
The union army records I worked ran from enlistment through death of the last direct dependent in the 20th Century. Even with the advent of antibiotics, life was hard and not full of “values” poking out over the brutish existence. What time span are you considering for your halcyon days?
Colonel – yes, very much so. “The current problems” corrects my mistake. Though most of those problems are common to both countries. My proof reading was awry (again) and I wrote “than” instead of “then” too.
My excuse is a ten hour drive in hilly country, though in the States I suppose that’s nothing out of the way. I have family who live over your way and they now think nothing of driving for several hours just to stop by a friend’s for coffee. I call that going native and view the practice with horror. My idea of a good day is a day when the car stays put.
Thank you for opening up your site again. I hope, the way you now run it, that you have more time away from the screen.
Well, this was a hell of a thing to find upon returning to Virginia from a week of blissful ignorance and brisk physical labor. Had a talk with my father last night. We both agreed that those nazi pieces of shit should have had their asses kicked and run out of town. We have no use for them, their notions of white supremacy and their love of nazi regalia. If it takes anti-fascists (antifa) to do it , so be it. If they want to do that stuff in the privacy of their basements or out in a field somewhere, that’s fine with me.
They did those who want to preserve Confederate monuments no favors. I see the SCV disavowed them and their “Unite the Right” gathering before last weekend. They also have a long standing policy of disavowing the KKK and all forms of white supremacy. Just today a mob pulled down a statue of a Confederate soldier in Durham, NC in broad daylight. I expect arrests for this vandalism, but I’m not surprised at this action. Those dedicated to preserving Confederate heritage already had a tough challenge separating themselves from charges of racism and white supremacy. Some of that’s self-inflicted. This weekend’s antics have created a wrongful connection between Confederate and nazi heritage. As wrong as this is, I fear it will lead to more instances of vandalism against Confederate memorials.
Upon seeing the video of the Durham vandalism, I felt a shiver go up my spine thing of the vulnerability of the “Appomattox” monument in Alexandria. I find that monument to be one of the most meaningful war memorials I know of. I hope it is now being watched around the clock.
I second both comments of General Ali.
I, too, read and value JDLedell’s posts and have been glad to learn from him. IMO he is a man of honor, worthy of respect.
SST with its pilgrims is a refuge from the insanity loose in the world. May it long stay active.
1) Pointing out that Obama coddled BLM, that Hillary had Omar Mateen’s father behind her at her rallies, that the Antifa were waving communist flags isn’t demanding Deploreables embrace Nazis. Its pointing out hypocrisy. There’s enough written about aesthetics and I can certainly spill enough inm regarding it, but don’t think I’ve got any sympathy for sperging edgelords who pull out a Nazi flag they bought off Amazon five minutes before the rally starts.
2) Which leads to this: We are ALREADY unconstitutional mate. Do we need to talk about Ninth Circus judges deciding immigration law is made in a Hawaii courtroom? Perhaps we can reach back to Comey deciding “she didn’t mean to” was a good reason to not press charges on crimes that would have already gotten you or me thrown into prison where you cant hear the dogs bark? Or we can talk about what happened in Cville with the police allowing Antifa to gather in mobs and then pull the permit on a group that already had their permit reinstated by judicial injunction?
Put the genie back into the bottle. Get the toothpaste back into the tube. You can’t. When the Left decided “punch a Nazi” was cool and then declared everyone who disagreed with them was a Nazi, you are going to get things like Middlebury, Berkely (the 2nd Battle), and Cville. Arguing about a piece of paper is simply ignoring the elephant in the room regarding violence as a means to an end. As I said before: The two dominant ethos in this country are “”Leave me alone and keep your weird shit to yourself” and “I deserve to hold your leash”. They cannot coexist.
This thing is going to end badly. It is going to end badly and some of us are not going to survive it. Better to tighten up your shot group and brace for what is to come.
“What time span are you considering for your halcyon days?” No idea what you are talking about. Surely you know the Union Army was better nourished and supplied? pl l
I guess you missed the soviet flags and t-shirts being worn by antifa. Or perhaps your “news” source doesn’t like to show that. So you are unaware of it. Or maybe you don’t consider the soviet system to have been fascist. Or maybe you lack the judgment to realize that organizations that make a habit of threatening and actually using physical violence to stop the opinions of other from being heard are fascists. Because that’s what antifa is doing all over the country.
In response to your comment at 109 I cannot speak for anyone other myself, but as someone who until recently thought of myself as a lefty I would surely condemn “communist Vietnamese agitprop cadres who ruthlessly killed thousands of rural people in that country.” I think any decent person would.
Douglas Valentine wrote a book called “The Pheonix Program” after extensive interviews with CIA personnel. They told him many of these atrocities were committed under CIA direction. It is possible the communist Vietnamese are not alone in deserving condemnation for these actions.
Leaving aside, for the moment, the vexing question of precisely how you might define “globalization”, and how it might be defined objectively, writing or saying “Globalization is inevitable…”is simply a cliche people utter when they insist humanity has a spelled out and unavoidable telos. That has always been nonsense…and it is now.
To recap: you said you remembered a time when “traditional American values” reigned supreme, your “halcyon days.” I mentioned that the good old days sucked, for the union army and even worse for the confederates. This was true even for the union army veterans and descendents well after the civil war.
This was true even after the discovery of antibiotics and the eradication of hookworm in the rural south through the introduction of dug latrines.
Poverty beats down values. Average daily calorie consumption is key. As it goes up, people can focus on more than the brute necessities. Perhaps your halcyon days are thanks to Fritz Haber and his process.
The Phoenix Program killed or captured communist party cadres in a COIN war. The communist party agitprop cadres killed village leaders by the thousands to gain control of the people. I was there. You were not. pl
I am sick of both sides. I condemn Nazi’s, Communists, Alt Right KKK and any group that responds with unprovoked violence.I’m even sick of Republicans and Democrats. I think Trump is a lousy president but don’t think Clinton would have been much better.
I subscribe to all of that. pl
You can’t have it both ways. If the Confederates were evil, criminal people then they should not be memorialized no matter how bravely and skillfully they defended their cause. As to the statue “Appomattox” here in Alexandria, I urge the United Daughters of the Confederacy (the owners) to move it NOW to a place of safety before an inevitable physical attack upon it takes place. The mob in Durham spat on the fallen bronze soldier, kicked it, etc. Move the statue now! pl
I did see Pan-African flags, IWW flags and a flag of the Communist Party of the United States (which being the Red Banner makes it indistinguishable from the flag of the, now defunct, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.)
I also disagree with your definition of fascist. The violent suppression of speech is not fascism’s unique identifying characteristic.
In no way did I say or imply the Confederates were evil, criminal people. Even in a small Connecticut town, I was taught quite the opposite. The nazis and other white supremacists have wrongly usurped the symbology of the Confederacy. The SCV see this and recognize it for the danger it is. You’re right about moving “Appomattox.” It’s way too vulnerable where it is.
eakens – I agree with you completely that the root of our problems is economic inequality. With a good job and a decent income, it doesn’t matter if you are white, black or purple, life in America will seem good and there are fewer reasons to demonstrate. Back in the 1960’s when blacks rioted in cities across the country including Newark, NJ where I worked, the country struggled to understand the cause and, more importantly, what to do about it. We face the same problem now with whites where economic pressures are conflated with societal changes that are all balled together to create anger and fear. However, white supremacy and Nazism are not the answer to white problems anymore than the Black Panthers were for blacks.
The best thing we can do for America is figure out a way to get back to robust economic activity that can lift all boats. With that many of the divisive problems we face will melt away.
Having trouble appreciating your preference for Stalin over Hitler. Therefore I conclude you are engaging lawyerly hair splitting. But as a Canadian I guess you can feel more free to engage in agitating for social unrest in the USA.
IMO you are in error in thinking that the great number of discontented middle Americans are represented by the right wing extremists. That representation IMO exists in the collective mind of the left, and nowhere else. pl
I am relieved to know that you have not begun to think them evil but the collective left and the minority groups think that and they are driving the narrative and the media IO. pl
“Back in the 1960’s when blacks rioted in cities across the country…”
In Detroit the epicenter of the 1967 riot was a police raid on hotel known for prostitution and drugs. The raid was due to the pressure of middle class black leaders wanting to get the whores and drugs out of their neighborhoods. You won’t read much about that in the press today. You will read about how 80,000 white families left Detroit in the years immediately afterwards. Thus the burning and looting of major portions of Detroit is the problem not of those who looted or burned the city but of white people who left. Even more obscured is the destruction of the black middle class in the city.
Wherever the collective left and minority groups first got the idea that the Confederacy was pure evil is unclear, but that idea is constantly reinforced by the constant use of symbols of the Confederacy by nazis, the KKK and other white supremacists to espouse their vile ideas. Those usurpers are driving the narrative more than any media IO… or at least making it too damned easy for them.
In reference to your last comment to jdledell, part of the problem is that the right wing extremists claim to be representing the great majority of discontented middle Americans. They claim to be defending white culture and Western civilization. Obviously they’re not, but we’ll never disabuse them of that notion.
Plans are building for a rally at the Lee statue on Monument Avenue in Richmond on 16 September. I think the Virginia Flaggers are behind this one. Hope they make an effort to keep out the “Unite the Right” crowd. Mayor Levar Stoney has emphatically stated that the monuments should stay where they are. Should be a no brainer given the history of Richmond and the centrality of those monuments to the city.
Forgive me if this thought has been expressed here before, but a great deal of what is flaming stupid about today’s Left and the MSM (not quite the same thing, but…) is the collective attempt re: Charlottesville to nudge, shame, push, chivvy, etc. DJT into saying something on the subject or related subjects that he hasn’t said and doesn’t want to say.
What the heck is this nitwit ritual all about? What interests, if any, does it serve? If Trump says what they want him to say, what has been gained on their part? If he doesn’t say what they want him to say (perhaps that should be “want”), who out there, on either or any side, will think of DJT in a way other than the way they’ve already thought of him?
You say it’s an exercise in propaganda? I suppose, but if so, it’s as stupidest, and probably counterproductive, such exercise as I can imagine.
Tyler – I don’t like disagreeing with a realist but I honestly don’t think your realism goes far enough. Disintegration is the most likely prospect here, maybe in the States too. The demographic, economic and political stresses are more severe than either of our countries have been subjected to before. It amazes me that most don’t acknowledge that and for sure you’re not one of that head in the sand majority.
But as I say, I don’t think your realism goes far enough. You say – “This thing is going to end badly. It is going to end badly and some of us are not going to survive it. Better to tighten up your shot group and brace for what is to come.”
Sounds like your grouping is pretty good already. 2″, if I remember accurately, at a distance at which most of us would find a barn door a challenge. Now that’s taken care of please arrange to keep Hanford more or less stable and to provide it with round the clock security. Please also arrange preventing the heavy weaponry and ammunition stored all over the place getting into the wrong hands. Infectious disease doesn’t take much account of body armour so if you could, please arrange to keep the inner cities’ sewerage and water facilities going.
Scenario Apocalypse isn’t going to work.
On the Neo-Nazis, I came across this:-
I’m a white Democrat, and I say he’s clearly not clueless. Who nominated you to represent “whites in America”?
I predict that an effort to “redefine” the statues on Monument Avenue in Richmond will lead to a situation that will make Charlottesville look like a walk in the park. pl
I said whites. Not self hating worms.
Ah, you’re taking me literally. Tighten up your shot group has another meaning that amounts to “get your shit together”.
I don’t live in the city. I live in a rural valley made up of like minded individuals that grows food.
Those other people tho: sounds like it’s gonma suck for them.
Don’t assume that acceptance of what is to come is the same as hoping for it to come.
According to Joe Thomas, for 30 years a radio personality on Charlottesville WCHV, interviewed on C Span Washington Journal on Aug 15, “80% of Charlottesvillians have no problem with the statue;” furthermore, Thomas said, “there is a state law that [such] statues may not be removed.” https://www.c-span.org/video/?432556-3/charlottesville-radio-host-discusses-aftermath-white-nationalist-protests-violence
jdledell, Perhaps it is slightly more nuanced than poverty/unemployment; the vast disparity between the haves and the have nots; exacerbated by the Haves comprising those who call the shots, is even greater cause for social unrest.
So many issues with this…
I can only imagine what pre Generation X Americans must be going through…
imo, this issue will come back to haunt us…it is exactly the type of subject that will cause Anglo-Saxon blowback…
also, i’m sure this is exactly the sort of issue that our enemies are glad we are grappling with…
to me, its elementary….respect for the dead, all the dead is fundamental….
This is foolhardy on so many levels….
The Union’s control of the US Navy as a key factor, is much ignored. Otherwise, like Parliament, the North controlled the key population, industrial and economic centres.
Be an interesting counter factual if the more capable commanders like Patrick Cleburne, John S Bowen, Nathan Bedford Forrest etc. had been in command rather than in the ranks in the Western theatre at the outset.
“I guess you missed the soviet flags and t-shirts being worn by antifa”
May I see these photos? Because on the one I saw the flags are not of the USSR, but of the American ComParty and the likes.
“Or maybe you don’t consider the soviet system to have been fascist. “
It wasn’t. Do you know the definition of the term “fascist”?
Tyler – just a footnote, though the thread is now completed. You wrote – “1) Pointing out that Obama coddled BLM, that Hillary had Omar Mateen’s father behind her at her rallies, that the Antifa were waving communist flags isn’t demanding Deploreables embrace Nazis.”
Looking over the relevant passage it does look as if I were stating that you were seeking to demand that the deplorables should embrace Nazis.
My apologies. That was not meant. It’s the press and TV, from what I’ve seen of them, who are framing their reporting to imply that the two categories are similar.
But on the whole issue I’m looking at things too much from an English perspective. Observing the population shifts in England I think that since large numbers are abandoning their home areas they’d do well to take their memorials with them. That would lessen the risk of disputes over them getting out of hand. That perspective is of little relevance to Charlottesville.
Colonel Lang wrote:
For a look at the tactics the anarchists and antifa are using to obtain this objective, see
“OPINION | The hypocrisy of antifa”
by Jonathan Turley, 2017-08-29
Turley concludes his opinion column with:
Mao Zedong’s opinion was sadly echoed by a professor at my graduate school,
Brandeis University professor Herbert Marcuse,
in his writings on “Repressive Tolerance”.
(See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Critique_of_Pure_Tolerance )