I don’t quite know how to describe the death of Ahmaud Arbery apart from calling it a tragedy. There are any number of articles containing every sort of view possible. Lest someone complain about my observation, I regard this death as a tragedy for the alleged killers, their friends and supporters, the black community and perhaps others who may yet become involved in this mess.
The reports seem to allege that Armhaud Arbery had been linked to burglaries in the local area. He was seen running – the press uses the term “jogging”, it is not clear if this was his neighbourhood but that is a secondary and ultimately unimportant point. Three white men armed themselves and apparently gave chase. Arbery was stopped, an armed struggle ensued and he was shot dead.
Allegedly no Georgia laws were broken by the pursuers. Open carry is legal. So is citizens arrest. So is the use of deadly force in defense. Arbery had a criminal record but the pursuers didn’t know that.
I am reminded of the Trayvon Martin case. I think that also pivoted on suspicion of criminal activity as a justification for the premeditated use of deadly force.
I think it is valid to ask the question: just how is a black person supposed to respond to white men, not officers, carrying guns? What would have happened if Arbery had been armed and, in fear for his own life, shot and killed his attackers? What if the pursuers had also been black? Are incidents like these an unfortunate, predictable and consequential outcome of the Second Amendment that have to be born lest tyranny reappear?
If this is not a fit subject for discussion at SST, I will be happy for this post to be deleted.
Interesting that a Google search turned up “no results” and then a few minutes later, just this post. I had to use Duck Duck Go to actually find out about this (plus you wiki link which Google had censored).
walrus
Why would I delete it? Is it because you think I am a racist? The question should be if the shooting was justifiable.
The question should be if the shooting was justifiable. – turcopolier
Same for Trayvon Martin case…
I am reminded of the Trayvon Martin case. I think that also pivoted on suspicion of criminal activity as a justification for the premeditated use of deadly force.
Can you prove it in court with facts or just your feelings?
I too remember the initial reporting by the media that was 100% factual and non hysterical when Trayvon Martin was shot by white hispanic George Zimmerman.
I also remember how the family was famously candid about Martin and his behavior, as well as not engaging in facetious speculation.
Seriously, 2020 and some of y’all are ready to go running for the library if I told you gullible wasn’t in the dictionary.
Shameful.
Scott S.,
The search results are not sinister. Try using the normal US spelling of Armaud Arbery. I’m not surprised that we haven’t heard about this with covid-19 dominating the news. I only heard about this yesterday on the radio while driving to Richmond. If it wasn’t for someone posting the video, we would never hear of it. Let’s face it. If the colors were reversed, two black men would have been in jail on suspicion of murder long ago.
I’m reminded of that jury finding Hispanic George Zimmerman not guilty too. I haven’t heard any details from down under about the biggest loss of police officer life in Victoria’s history on SST though. Apparently that won’t affect the US election, though we will certainly have witches involved in it.
https://7news.com.au/news/vic/eastern-freeway-crash-truck-driver-mohinder-singh-claims-he-was-avoiding-witch-when-he-allegedly-hit-police-officers-c-1019116
Jose,
I seem to recall the Martin case hinging on Zimmerman defending himself when Martin jumped on him and started bashing his head – a reasonable response to someone following you. We should all do that. Bash heads first, ask questions later. Guess it depends on which media you pay attention to. Amazing how organizations tasked with reporting “the facts” are so wildly discrepant.
How surprising that a cause celebre involving white supremist Nazi racists attempts to arise in the media as we approach election time!
“Allegedly no Georgia laws were broken by th pursuers…” If true, then vigilantes are the new normal. My friends who are parents of black boys live in fear. A fear that I have never even had to deal with or discuss. That reality is truly a tragedy.
IIRC, In the Trevon Martin case the defendant testified he was ambushed. After the physical alteration the “victim” reached for the defendant’s gun and they struggled over it. Seems like a justified use of force and a jury agreed. I’m not sure about this case, the details matter. Lot’s of details get lost when the media gets a case like this so as to not “prejudice” anyone. I noticed in the description above there was no mention of a previous firearms offense, taking a gun on school grounds…
I think it’s a valid question to ask why race should matter at all in the question of justice. It’s more important to ask if a citizen should be able to detain another one with no direct evidence to a crime.
Tim Pool did a great video on this topic earlier today. Btw, Tim is a self described liberal and left leaning, but who is very unhappy with the current trajectory of the left, the lefty media and Democrats in general and many of his videos/podcasts express this frustration.
Ahmaud Arbery WAS NOT Murdered In Cold Blood, The Leftist Narrative Is Manipulation, Video Exists https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSQN3TzrpO8 (~23 min)
TTG
“Let’s face it. If the colors were reversed, two black men would have been in jail on suspicion of murder long ago.” This is a political statement for which you have no evidence.
TTG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSQN3TzrpO8
The facts of this case probably no longer matter, from a legal standpoint, as Joe Biden has probably made a murder conviction impossible. On 6th he tweeted “The video is clear: Ahmaud Arbery was killed in cold blood.” The tweet has over 90k ‘likes’. Any defense counsel for the alleged killers will surely now claim that a fair trial is impossible. If I were of a cynical bent I would say that this may have been the exact intent of the tweet. Political point-scoring trumps justice every time.
Why was Arbery, a football hero at the All-State level, carrying a .380 handgun stuck in his waistband at a Brunswick High School basketball game when he was a student there? The Browning .380 ACP has evolved since 1908 into an expensive automatic pistol. But it did manage to start WWI. It is not your standard .38. That’s an entirely different weapon, generally a pistol, as far as I know. One War II MAG sidearm I have holds five rounds, I think. It could have been a Sig(Sauer)P238, or a Ruger, or a Glock. The Glock magazine is ten rounds, eleven with one chambered. Where did Arbery get this $400.00-$500.00 firearm from? What does he need it for? This is batshit crazy!
Col. Lang, of course your not a racist! My concern was whether this brouhaha was all fake news that would lower the quality SST.
My own opinion of this matter is that the Second Amendment is so important and valuable that accidents and incidents such as this must be accepted as the cost of free access to firearms.
As for the circumstances of this case I cannot say.
Tidewater,
I think it is natural for teenage males to become aggressive as they grow and that includes “walking the talk” at the very least. Some of us sublimated this aggression into sports, education or community service. Others become real or pretend gangstas. Was this guys firearm loaded when he took it to school?
walrus,
If you search local news from Georgia you will find other cases of people chasing a suspected person in their neighborhood. It seems stupid for a property crime but people get excited. In these other cases the optics aren’t something the national media finds interesting.
The coroner’s report says three men were pursuing him with “first hand probable cause”, which implies a specific crime that same day, pretty much.
The details of exactly what the coroner was referring to there will be key.
Tidewater,
Whether the man paid retail or street price 6 or 7 years ago is rather irrelevant to what happened this February. Earning $400-500 in high school isn’t that hard. What did he need it for? Wrong question. Was it legal in Georgia to own it, maybe, it certainly wouldn’t have been legal to take it to school, if any of that is actually true; but that’s all beside the point now too.
BTW the father and son just got arrested.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2020/05/08/father-son-arrested-charged-with-murder-in-shooting-of-brunswick-jogger/
pl,
I watched that YouTube video you posted and I stand by my statement that if the colors were reversed, two black men would have been arrested a long time ago. Yes, it is a political statement now backed up by the arrest today of the two white men for murder. Given the circumstances, I doubt they will face murder charges, but it sure looks like felony menacing resulting in manslaughter.
Tidewater,
That 380 that Arbery brought to school in 2012 was an imported Makarov now worth $300 to $350. He obviously shouldn’t have brought it to school or he wouldn’t have received a 5 year suspended sentence for the incident. What would he have needed it for? The 2A applied to all Americans, black and white. I carried a KaBar as a kid and even brought it to school a few times.
Fred,
The question is, at this point, whether or not there has been, or will be, an indictment. I don’t see how a grand jury could indict on this. Unless they want to test a lot of things in Georgia law–the current ‘hold your ground’ law; the current right of a citizen to pursue a suspected law breaker and detain him until a police officer arrives; the current right to deadly force if it has finally come to a struggle for control over a weapon which has been presented to enforce a citizen’s arrest. (Citizen’s arrest, by the way, I have been told, is a right or law which in Virginia does not really exist and it should never be attempted.)
If, incredibly, it does go to trial, the ‘happy go lucky’ deceased –note well that family code usage, I knew one ‘happy go lucky’ guy who killed six people, and I got to kind of like him, for A’ that– has a background that is quite relevant and that includes his mental and criminal records. I just took a look at Georgia law. Those records are admissible, even after the statutory ten years if the probative value outweighs the prejudicial effect. Robert Willman: SOS.
Jogging in boots?
Attack a man with a shot gun?
Drug test time!
We need a whole lot more information before we come to a conclusion on this one.
I do believe the law sayz you can only make a citizens arrest if you see a criminal act, not because you see a black man running down the street. It’s dumb luck Arbery ran into two Bozos with a shotgun. Reminds me of an old African-American slave song traced back to 1851. This is my favorite version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKGNvo8WTrA
TTG,
Interesting that in Connecticut a 4″ balisong, which opens out to eight inches with handle and blade, with a flick of the wrist, is legal, but anything over four inches, if you had happened to get caught with it, like a bowie knive or KA-BAR, means you would have had to join the Marines, right? Which you were supposed to do, anyway? So your uncles and father would have been delighted?
I hope your distinguished family member, Xhenet Aliu, is going to take some vacation time off to get over to the coast to look into this case. She might just make it her own.
So, we have indictments. There will most likely be a trial.
The jury, not us, will hear the facts and make a decision. That’s how our system is supposed to work.
Trial via press or public opinion is counterproductive.
My two cents. Your mileage may vary.
Bubba,
The jury will see the facts, we’ll be regaled with trial by media, just like happened with the Russia collusion case. That is why this is global news concerning everyone watching the American left implode and fearful Trump will get four more years.
Tidewater,
That Ka-Bar was my father’s. He gave it to me when I was quite young. I remember my mother wasn’t too thrilled with the idea, but my father said it was time. I did want to be a Marine for quite a while. Then I wanted to be a Maryknoll missionary priest. Eventually I decided to be a Special Forces officer. My father was happy with my choice although we still enjoy a little inter-service rivalry. My niece Xhenet now lives in Winston-Salem, NC. She still has a job in this “age of the covid” and is enjoying the hills of NC. I warned her of the Christian Militia chuckleheads that prowl the Uwharrie National Forest.
Tidewater, Georgia police & district attorneys attest that citizen’s arrest DID NOT APPLY –citizen’s arrest can only be done IF you personally witnessed the crime & can only detain them –also, Armand was wearing Nike HI-TOP sneakers, NOT work boots
–it was created to allow retailers to detain shoplifters, NOT to create a posse to go searching for someone
in this case, the last burglary happened SEVEN WEEKS ago before the shooting
https://www.13wmaz.com/article/news/crime/georgias-citizen-arrest-laws-how-they-work-arbrey-shooting/93-31294ef7-70d4-4fa8-926e-6fde7a1bc075
“Under Georgia code, Moore says a citizen can use force if they fear for their life, but they cannot create a confrontation themselves and then claim self defense after harming someone. ”
…
“Taking a closer look, what does Georgia code say about citizen’s arrest laws?
“It doesn’t go to the point of a person putting handcuffs on them. It goes to the point of that person blocking their movement,” Dublin Police Chief Tim Chatman said in a previous interview with 13WMAZ.
Under Georgia law you can do this only if you’ve actually witnessed a crime.
Michael Moore, a former U.S. attorney in Macon, says citizen’s arrests can be helpful, but they are pretty rare.
“Think of, for instance, a purse snatching. It allows someone to intervene, to help the victim of the purse snatching to maybe grab the snatcher and hold them until the police come,” Moore said.
But it’s a bit more complicated than it sounds.
“You might think that you witnessed something that’s an arrestable offense, but it’s not really an arrestable offense,” Fort Valley Police Chief Lawrence Spurgeon said.
..
Under Georgia code, Moore says a citizen can use force if they fear for their life, but they cannot create a confrontation themselves and then claim self defense after harming someone.
Especially if they did not witness a crime take place.
“It does not allow us to create armed posses and roam the community looking for someone we think might have done something wrong,” Moore said.
Spurgeon also says, when possible, you should report wrongdoing to the police instead of taking your own action.
more:
https://www.wabe.org/atlanta-judge-examines-georgias-citizens-arrest-law-state-bureau-of-investigation-gives-updates-on-arbery-investigation/
@ optimax Thanks for the link to that song! Made my night – love the vigor and confidence in that long-ago redneck’s voice!
@ TTG:
“if the colors were reversed, two black men would have been arrested a long time ago.”
Aside from being irrelevant to the matter at hand, it is a scenario that would never happen. A White man is just not going to be jogging through a black neighborhood in Georgia – unless maybe he’s a northern born former SF with only the career soldier’s rigidly controlled, ideologically impregnated, artificial, and therefore extremely unrepresentative experience of race to go on. However, if some dumbass White should happen to do such a foolish thing, there is about zero probability he’ll be stopped by a black father and son team worried about break-ins, and an excellent chance he’ll be tackled by the three or four closest thugs, severely beaten, robbed and left bleeding in the middle of the road.
Having watched the same video you have, several times, I come to a somewhat different conclusion than you. By no means was what the father and son team did “felony menacing”. I’ve been feloniously menaced, when a crew on the run from the law came flying through the vacant lot contiguous to my back yard, guns in hands, and one started to climb my fence. The climber couldn’t grip the fence rail and his gun at the same time, (and obviously couldn’t run a Marine Corps obstacle course) and his gun fell on my side of the fence with him stuck at the top. It was a 1911. I was sorely tempted. We faced each other down for a few seconds, and then I decided, since I had to continue living there and they undoubtedly would be back, to go inside, let him pick up his gun, and continue his getaway. Which he did.
The McMichaels here pulled up about 50 yards ahead of the “jogger” and stopped. They did not approach Arbery – he ran up on them, though he had ample time to stop, turn around, or take a wide detour. The McMichaels did not point their guns at Arbery. They were in the right lane, not blocking the road – Arbery could simply have continued running right past them.
The McMichaels were open carrying – there was no surprise pulling out of hidden guns which could have caused Arbery to panic.
What does Arbery do? He makes a sudden radical turn and goes right after the man holding a shotgun. They are seen wrestling for control of the gun. Do you see any other choice for the man holding the gun? Of course not: he was in a kill or be killed situation.
What we see with Arbery is an arrogant black man who is enraged at the thought of White men defending their homes. Charging someone who’s holding a gun and trying to take that gun away from him is pretty much guaranteed to get you shot.
You indulged in a hypothetical about the reversal of the races, a pointless exercise. I’ll give you a hypothetical that has the ring of truth and the seal of my experience: if Arbery had gotten the shotgun away from the man he attacked, he’d have blown him away. McMichael is lucky to be alive; and he’s only live because he killed Arbery.
@ Jose:
“Can you prove it in court with facts or just your feelings?”
The proof consisted in the deep lacerations and hematoma on the back of Zimmerman’s head. Zimmerman is lucky he got off the shot in time – another one or two head-bashings and he would have been dead.
Ya entiendes, Jose?
K/4/11,
In addition to what you say, Arbery had a hammer. Who goes “jogging” with a hammer? The truth will come out in court, as it always does in these race baiting episodes we must endure every election year.
TTG,
Well, if she has had such success with a novel titled simply, “Brass”, don’t you think maybe it would be a good idea to call your own book “Brasso”?