The Vikasi, have never given up on one day reclaiming their homeland, Tibet.
Establishment 22, a Special Frontier Force (SFF) created by India in 1962, with their main goal to conduct covert warfare operations behind Communist Chinese lines. Establishment 22 conducts special reconnaissance, as well as direct action, hostage rescue, counter-terrorism, unconventional warfare, and covert operations.
Establishment 22 has a long and proud history dating back to World War II. Its first Inspector General, Major General Sujan Singh Uban had commanded the 22nd Mountain Regiment in Europe during World War II. Major General Uban also commanded a recon and raiding unit of the British Army in North Africa during the war.
The SFF while not a part of the Indian Army, falls under the Army's operational command. Women are also part of the SFF, and perform unconventional warfare tasks, and covert operations.
The Vikasi are approximately 10,000 plus strong, most of them Tibetan Highlanders, who's unquestioned loyalty is to the Dalai Lama, and who have been itching for a fight to reclaim their Tibetan homeland from the illegal Communist Chinese occupiers. India's PM Modhi has given them the green light. August 29-30 in the evening hours saw the Vikasi preempting the Communist Chinese PLA occupying a strategic position Southern Pangong Tso near Thakung. The SFF pummeled the Communist Chinese troops while snatching the strategic location.
Every, and I do mean 'every' Vikasi are mountain-guerrilla warfare specialist, some of the toughest around. Somebody you*d want sharing a fox-hole with you. A former Gurkha commander once exclaimed that the Vikasi could survive in any condition. The SFF are a truly self-sufficient force, who also serve under in the DGS under India's external intelligence agency R&AW.
By giving the Vikasi the green light, India sends China a wake-up call.
In the 1960s, the CIA helped India organize its intelligence apparatus along U.S. lines and also raised a deadly SFF to position it against China in Tibet, and not Pakistan. Up until 1979, the CIA had been supporting the Tibetan cause, and withdrew only when the U.S. decided to concentrate energies on the former Soviet Union.
Things are a changing – this past Tuesday, U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Stephen Biegun announced that there will be a Quad ministerial meet in New Delhi.
Watch the fur fly as the Vikasi retake their Tibetan homeland, a Tibet free from Communist China.
As Slim Pickens would say 'Yee Haw!'
We are the Vikasi
The Chinese snatched Tibet from us
and kicked us out from our home
Even then, India
kept us like their own
One day, surely one day
we will teach the Chinese a lesson
Whenever opportunities arise
we will play with our lives In the Siachen glacier
we got our second chance
Our young martyrs
have no sadness whatsoever
Whether it is Kargil or Bangladesh
we will not lose our strength
Whenever opportunities arise
we will play with our lives
Where there is our Potala Palace
and lovely Norbu Lingka
The throne of the Dalai Lama
was dear even then
Remember those martyrs of ours
who sacrificed with their lives
Let’s sing together
Hail to our Tibet!
Hail to our Tibet!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Frontier_Force
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_and_Analysis_Wing
J.
J:
This is a fool’s errand for India and will result, when push comes to shove, in a defeat far far worse than the one India suffered in 1962.
J,
“who’s unquestioned loyalty is to the Dalai Lama”
If memory serves the current Dalai Lama has long ago given up on a free Tibet, having failed to allow it to be defended back in the ’50s.
I don’t recall seeing “J” post before, but maybe I just don’t recall. However, the post seems sort of a random outlier, but perhaps J is affiliated with the persistent “Friends of Tibet” cult which we see here in Charlottesville. They cling to the hope of somehow staging a “reconquista” of Tibet. It seems highly unlikely this will happen in our times and if the Indian Govt. is serious about stoking this past the minor annoyance level it’s been at for decades, then they’re walking in harm’s way. If this small band of fierce warrior “werewolves” plans to move out of the mountains and go beyond random attacks on PLA border patrols, the Chinese aren’t going to simply abandon the huge investment in modernising Tibet and go home.
Babek,
Have you ever been in combat? A fools errand academic viewpoint is quite different from one who is fighting to reclaim their homeland from the CCP. With India, U.S. Australia, and Japan by the SFF’s side, the SFF and Quad will win also include the U.K., S. Korea, and Taiwan joining the SFF fight for a free Tibet.
A Pols
“J” has posted here a number of times. You missed that. He is a retired USAF member who is a farmer in Oklahoma, not in Charlottesville.
J
Have YOU ever been in combat?
Colonel,
Yes.
As someone who has never been in combat – I am a congenital civilian, not through any contempt for the professions of arms, but purely through complete unsuitability – I take care to pay due attention to people who have, on the many matters where the possession of such experience is relevant.
However, when a question like ‘Have you ever been in combat?’ is used to stifle argument on a difficult and very important issue, I think this is very bad news.
It ends up being rather like ‘my dick is bigger than yours’ arguments: beneath contempt.
When it is, and is not, prudent, and moral, to encourage insurgencies against other powers, is commonly a very difficult issue.
Among other things, it may be prudent to ask whether the same games you want to see played against others may in the end be played against you.
We have seen a great deal of utter BS about Russian intervention in your – and our – elections, arising from the utter inability of the ‘Borg’ to comprehend that anyone could disagree with the ultimate truth its members – quite genuinely, very often, in my view – see themselves as representing.
Who knows? I may still live to see the Chinese government providing support to a ‘Santa Ana Liberation Front’ using all kinds of interesting methods to reverse what is portrayed as the illegitimate acquisition of Texas.
And perhaps, Chinese newspapers will betray the same kind of incomprehension about the significance that the Alamo still has – at least for some in the United States – as their American and British counterparts have displayed for the significance that Sevastopol has for many Russians.
J
Where and in what capacity? You asked Babak this question and thus invited this line of questioning.
J, I don’t think the SFF have a snowballs chance, and, by the way, leave Australia out of it. We are already having to cope with Chinese interference in the pacific islands and new guinea. We don’t need to encourage them further.
P. S. How would you like Chinese air and naval bases plus a few divisions of the PLA in Cuba?
David Habakkuk
I will try to avoid asking people about their military service. Point well taken.
I’m wishing to see the liberation of Laos in my lifetime.
Colonel,
The question appeared as a view from an academic standpoint is all. The India soldiers and SFF who have to deal with the CCP PLA view it as no errand foolishness.
J
No.
But I do not bieve you have a reliable assessment of China.
They will crush India.
walrus,
Exactly. Moreover, with the way matters are going, the question you raise may become relevant rather sooner than many anticipate.
There are actually some very good academic analysts of both Chinese and Russian military affairs associated with the U.S. military. One for whom I have acquired considerable respect is Lyle J. Goldstein, who is based at the Naval War College, and who can read both languages.
Among many interesting contributions by him, one which I think merits reflection is a piece in December last year in the ‘National Interest’ headlined ‘Why China Wants Its Navy to Patrol the Atlantic Ocean.’
(See https://nationalinterest.org/feature/why-china-wants-its-navy-patrol-atlantic-ocean-105187 .)
I hate to agree with Babak Makkinejad, but in this case he is correct.
If Trump uses American troops or air support to side with the ‘phantom’ SFF then he would be a bigger idiot than many think him to be. Ditto for the leadership in Australia, Japan, the U.K., S. Korea, and Taiwan that you mention.
Tibet will be under the control of Beijing until (and if) China implodes; which will hopefully be sooner than later.
SFF will not be welcomed by Tibetans, as they were no better off under the pre-1959 feudal nobles than they are now under the ChiComs.
I am as anti-CCP as it comes. IMO, they’re a malign force for both the Chinese people and the world. Having said that, I don’t believe India has the military capability including manpower, firepower and logistics to fight in the high mountains. They’ll lose just like they did in 1962, when the Chinese attacked to acquire the strategic heights and were able to get all the way to the plains. Indian politicians will have no choice but to sue for a disadvantageous peace or escalate to nuclear which would devastate both countries.
I’ve trekked in these mountain areas in my youth. No doubt road infrastructure is much better now. However, it is unforgiving terrain.
I’d be curious if those with military expertise can comment on what basis India could even hold their current positions in the event of the PLA moving to take more territory?
walrus, David,
If the CCP sets up bases in Cuba, it wouldn’t be too long before the US establishes military assets in Taiwan. That would be a bridge too far even for the totalitarian CCP, IMO.
I believe the CCP is stretched thin both internally and externally in their belief they will be the next hegemon. They’ve just taken over the electric grid in Laos due to a loan default. This is happening in other places in Asia, Africa and Latin America with increasing default of infrastructure debt. A backlash is building. The Czech government for a first in Europe have directly challenged the CCP despite threats with an official visit to Taiwan.
Babak. Colonel,
I meant no disrespect, I should have worded differently. For that I humbly apologize.
India will NOT be crushed by the CCP PLA. Quite to the contrary. India military and Intelligence are not the India of 62. Modi has been carefully lining up India’s chess pieces. All of the Quad wants a piece of the CCPs hide and are laying their groundwork accordingly.
The CCP PLA have been attempting slow creep along the LOC to which India has been engaged in counter creep to neutralize any PLA inroad. The PLA have nothing to compare with the SFF.
J,
I suspect the matter will be decided by Chinese interests and thereby commitment in Tibet. Tibetans are not Chinese, so that interest appears to be military and strategic. Moreover, of defense not offense. The mountains are a daunting obstacle in any plan to expand into Pakistan or India and there is no obvious reason for China to wish to do so.
I read the Chinese view the area as critical for defense. They DO NOT want an Indian “beach head” on the Chinese side of the Himalayas. IF true I suspect the SFF forces can not expect to expel the Chinese from Tibet, but they could win concessions in the nature of Chinese occupation…IF they play their cards right.
This reads as an interloper on this blog.
I am surprised you would allow such a fatuously propagandized–and counterfactual–post among your “Committee of Correspondence,” good Colonel.
Yes, Tibet is a territory. Yes, Tibet is a culture, formerly of great power. Yes, Tibet is a culture under threat of extinction.
This sort of “promotion”, however–even the Dalai Lama agrees that this is counterproductive.
Pacifica Advocate
So, you want me to withdraw his posting privilege?
International law allows governments to regulate religions to prevent their use as vehicles for violence or separatism, and China bans public religious activities on that basis but, since public worship is integral to their culture, Tibetans still worship publicly and their religion is flourishing.
Forty living Buddhas and one-hundred fifty-thousand monks and nuns are engaged in scriptural study and debate, degree promotion, initiation, and abhisheka empowerment, and self-cultivation and the Living Buddha reincarnation system are thriving. Home shrines, however, show divided loyalties. Some are dedicated to the Dalai Lama, some to the Panchen Lama, and some to Mao Zedong who, like Lincoln, is revered as the Great Emancipator.
Professor Melvyn Goldstein[1] conducted fieldwork in rural Tibet in 2000 and asked, “Do You Have a Better Life Now Than Your Parents Did?” Ninety-percent of those who had experienced the Dalai Lama’s regime said, “Yes.” Following the 2008 riots, the Tibetan Government in Exile secretly asked[2] seventeen thousand resident Tibetans if they wanted full independence, renzig. Thirty-percent said, “Yes,” while forty-seven percent preferred limited true autonomy within China[3], as the original agreement offered in 1953 (and offered again in the 1980s).

[1] Contemporary Tibet: Politics, Development and Society in a Disputed ..Sautman et al. Goldstein was Chairman of Case Western’s Department of Anthropology and Director of the Center for Research on Tibet He married the daughter of the famous Tibetan scholar-official-aristocrat, Surkhang Wangchen Gelek, and was elected to the U.S. National Academy of Sciences in 2009.
[2] DHARAMSALA, India: Tibetan leaders opened a six-day meeting over the direction of their struggle with China on Monday, after the Dalai Lama, the region’s exiled spiritual leader, expressed frustration over years of fruitless talks with Beijing.The meeting here in northern India, called by the Dalai Lama, comes after his comments last month bemoaning the lack of any progress by his envoys in talks with the Chinese government since 2002. Karma Chophel, speaker of Parliament in the government-in-exile, said more than 8,000 of 17,000 Tibetans recently surveyed in Tibet said they would follow the Dalai Lama. More than 5,000 said they wanted Tibetan independence, more than twice the number who wanted to continue with the current approach, he said. He did not offer any details about how the survey was conducted. Tibetan Exiles Discuss Impasse with China. Memories of Movement. November 17, 2008.
[3] The remainder chose the status quo or had no opinion.
J
No umbarge taken but if your sentences are a true reflection of the Modi government’s views, then Indians are living in a very very dangerous fantasy.
That is, they have very exaggerated view of their own capabilities.
China uses this LoC issue festered to keep India off balance when China so wishes.
Quad? What Quad? Is US going to be fighting in Himalayas together with India against China? Or is Japan? Or Australia?
I do not think so.
US diplomats went to Indians, flased their eyelashes, bandied the word Quad and played on Indians’ insecurities, delusions, and vanities and got them to assume a far more anti-Chinese posture than was warranted or sensible.
Would VP Kamala throw US military support to India in order to tilt Modi’s chessboard?
Would she divert that military support from Pres. Joe “I am a zionist” Biden’s support for Israel, or would US taxpayers be expected to finance (i.e. borrow from China!) both theaters?
India and Russia are conducting a joint naval exercise near the Strait of Malacca, which is China’s Achilles heel. The exercise started yesterday through today at the Andaman Islands, during the time period when India’s Defense Minister’s scheduled meeting in Moscow.
This is in the same area that an upcoming November exercise involving India – Quad with Australia possibly taking part.
The CCP is infuriated with the developments as the Strait of Malacca is the choke-point where India has been steadily applying pressure. Roughly 80% of China’s oil supplies pass through the South China Sea via the Strait of Malacca, and growing Indian presence in its close proximity can easily hamper China’s supply from the Middle East bringing the CCP to its knees.
India has been actively militarizing the strategically important Andaman and Nicobar Islands in the Bay of Bengal which is in proximity to the strait. Also India has announced that it’s considering building a trans-shipment port in the Great Nicobar Islands. If China tries to move through the Northwest of the Strait of Malacca, then rest assured that New Delhi will be tracking their every move. Japan, U.S., and Australia are already tightening their nooses. India and Australia signed a mutual joint agreement, which enables both countries use of each others military bases for enhanced patrolling of the Indo-Pacific region.
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/russian-navy-to-join-naval-exercise-in-andaman-on-september-4/645639
https://www.aninews.in/news/world/asia/india-australia-sign-mutual-logistics-support-agreement-to-increase-military-inter-operability20200604222603/
To put it bluntly, the odds of an Indian victory by invading Tibet, and the absence of simultaneous Chinese conflicts with at least one other serious great power (meaning Russia or the USA), are extraordinarily remote.
China has dilligently combined their “integration” efforts in both Xinjian and Tibet with considerable efforts of improving their infrastructure in these areas. This in turn drastically increases the logisitical weight a Chinese force defending their Tibetan holdings can have.
Comparably investments on the Indian side have been decisively mediocre. Massive logistical disadvantages are pretty hard to fight into.
The chinese army of today also is not the chinese army of 1962.
The current Mao dynasty is still rising. Time needs to take its course, so that it becomes decadent and incompetent (which has historically speaking happened to every single previous dynasty, and which will also happen to this dynasty). Xi Jinping is someone who personally knows hardship (he was apparently “soft-purged” meaning exile to a podunk village, during the culture revolution due to his parents being purged quite a bit harder), he has prevailed other considerable odds, and well, to use popular culture, Xi Jingping is Tywin Lannister. If you want to defeat China, wait till Joffrey takes over. Much easier with some patience.
This man is a formidable foe, Cao Mengdes (Cao Cao more informally, also had a quite personality forming experience on being on the run and exiled) heir perhaps.
China clearly has ambitions on Ladahk or it would not be contesting the border at all. By establishing itself in the mountains together with its association with Pakistan re the New Silk Road it threatens to bypass India.
While Indian camel riders at ceremonies create a romantic backdrop, the harsh reality is that India is somewhere around 1970 developmental wise compared to China and is highly vulnerable to a conventional attack.
A 10,000 strong mountain warfare unit stands no chance against the Chinese PLA except as a thorn in the side for a year or two. The US is not able to provide the sort of logistic support that would be required for success. (Ask the Kurds if you sincerely think the US is anything more than inept!)
The US is enjoying all the ‘horrors’ today that it has imposed on countless nations around the world over the last 70 years. The world looks on at chaos in the US without sympathy watching the chickens come home to roost.
Besides, as the Russians put it, the US is ‘not agreement capable’, consequently only a fool would trust them, especially as they are totally disunited during what passes for a democratic election in a nation run by oligarchs.
Whether someone has been on active service or not is irrelevant. You don’t need to know anything about military matters to see the folly of Indian support for what is essentially a terrorist organisation operating out of its northern homelands.
I have military experience but have never been on active service. I don’t consider myself an authority on anything, especially military matters. All you need is common sense, which if you have had a university education you won’t have, even though you might be very clever.
John Unhinge.
John Unhinge
“if you have had a university education you won’t have, even though you might be very clever.” Is this a clever Brit remark directed at me?
One other item is the rebellion taking place against the CCP in Inner Mongolia. The Mongols of both Inner Mongolia and Mongolia are tough lot. There are a lot of forces in their formative stages when combined will give the CCP PLA a run for their money.
J
Chinese-Russian Entente is not going to be disturbed by some meaningless naval exercises.
“Infuriated Chinese”? Hardly!
Amused? Definitely.
It is not every day that a country with 750 million souls living on $ 1 per day or less (500 million living on less than that) starts acting as though she is somebody of strategic consequence.
Quad, and BRICS before it, created by Americans in both cases, really seem to leading people astray, blowing wind up their shalwars.
A.I.S.
Dynastic cycles had a lot to do with agricultural productivity and imperial consumption.
With industrial production that dynamics no longer holds.
The Chinese Communist Party is a meritocracy of 15 million people.
The Past, in this case, is not a guide to the Future.
Personally, I think appeasing China is the most prudent course of action.
John U –
China does not want Ladakh. Almost half of the population of Ladakh are Muslims, mostly Shia. China does not need that headache.
Although in the event of a Indian/Pakistan War they might support Islamabad by creating diversions in Ladakh. In 1948 Pakistani forces were able to occupy parts of Ladakh. They almost captured the capitol Leh, but were repulsed by elements of the 4th and 8th Gurkha Rifles of the Indian Army. The 4th had been airlifted in at the last minute. The 8th did a forced march of 470 km over mountainous terrain from Himachal Pradesh.
J,
Please forgive a clarification, but before the usual folks start pissing and moaning about color revolutions, the CCP kicked things off in Inner Mongolia by announcing the Mongolian language will not be taught anymore in schools. The Mongolian minority in China consider themselves to be sheep, but this move really stirred the pot.
Why the CCP chose this moment to stir it is anyone’s guess.
The CCP’s attempt to steal a few hundred meters of territory in the Ladakh region has boomeranged on them.
India is a huge consumer of cheap Chinese products. Now more than a hundred Chinese apps from TikTok to WeChat and Alipay are banned in India. Many other products are being curtailed. China’s annual exports to India is around $80 billion. Not a small amount.
With significant attention in the US on CCP IP theft, espionage, and mercantilism and with tariffs on Chinese goods, the possibility is that a Trump win will only ratchet up the pressure. Many US companies are beginning to hedge their Chinese supply chains. Apple for example is putting together a huge manufacturing capability in India reducing their Chinese footprint.
The Wuhan virus have given many people pause on how much integration do they really want wth the CCP-run China. It is unlikely the CCP will continue to get a pass as they have over the past 30 years.
Xi has to become even more repressive to insure his own survival against others in the CCP who are looking for weakness. IMO, China is heading into a period of great instability with an over-sized banking system reminiscent of Japan’s in the late 80s. In such situations paramount leaders many times miscalculate.
This talk by Australian John Garnaut is very interesting if you want to get another perspective on Xi’s China.
https://sinocism.com/p/engineers-of-the-soul-ideology-in
Escarlata
Si, “ha ido a la Universidad..”, pero no educado.
El burro de Jesús, llevado a Jerusalén, regresando, sigue siendo un burro.
J
So we move from Gurkhas now to Mongols as partisans of the forlorn hope of Containing China?
Almost all of the population of Mongolia lives in shanties around Ulan Batur. They are not a threat to China.
It would appear that in any China-India military conflict the most valuable assistance that the US can provide India is intelligence including high quality reconnaissance imagery of Chinese movements.
India should have learned some military lessons when they were surprised with Pakistani infiltration in the western Ladakh area of Kargil. Their subsequent military offensive to evict the Pakistani military while successful must have shown their limitations and possibly updated their high altitude combat strategies.
Apparently one of the reasons for tension in the region is CCP unhappiness with India’s attempts at equalizing the Chinese logistical advantage by building all-weather roads and bridges. There have also been clashes between PLA soldiers and Indian military forces in the Eastern Himalaya border regions.
The notion that CCP have no territorial ambitions in the region is preposterous. They have a long history of military provocations along the ill-defined border.
A description of Indian military counter-moves to the PLA actions in Ladakh.
https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/news/indian-offensive-retake-chinese-seized-territory-hidden-story
Maybe those with military experience can comment. What happens as winter sets in?
I didn’t intend for it to be inferred that I thought “J” was in Charlottesville. There’s a durable presence of Dalai Lama devotees based at UVA and they are emblematic of the “Friends of Tibet” movement in this country. People have their pet causes….
blue peacock
This story in Asia Nikkei points to the purges in the internal security apparatus by Xi. As you note Xi is clearly preparing for further repression in China.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Editor-s-Picks/China-up-close/China-officials-run-for-cover-as-Xi-Jinping-prepares-another-brutal-purge
J
10,ooo troops without armor, artillery or AD is a light infantery division. How does that division, after conquering Tibet, survive the inevitable PLA attack? How many 10´s of square kilo-meters is each solider supposed to capture and defend? What is the Han population of Tibet that this division has to police?
why do you have posting rights?
Babak,
The CCP PLA-GF (ground force) has been impacted greatly with their one child policy. The Chinese family unit are very protective of their ‘one child’. In addition, PLA-GF commanders at least three years ago were complaining that their troops were spending too much time on video games and masturbation, and not enough time on being soldiers. The PLA is composed of non-combat experience, whereas the Indian army is battle-hardened with their experiences dealing with Kashmir. India recruits the SFF from highlanders and highland villages, where they are acclimated to high altitude training and fighting. The PLA are not acclimated to such extremes, and never will be. The SFF are born into high altitudes. I can relate to that as I was born and raised in a high altitude environment, and because of it I could last longer in sporting events from those that were raised in lower altitudes.
The SFF is a unconventional force a covert paramilitary unit under the direction of the Indian Army and Indian Intelligence, not a conventional one. Their mission is hit and run, sabotage and disrupt. Guerrilla warfare. When and I say when Tibet is liberated from the illegal Chinese invaders, the SFF can help with India’s assistance set up a regular standing military to defend and protect Tibet.
The last time any member of the PLA-GF saw any type of combat was in 1979, and those that did and remain are in the retirement bracket.
https://nypost.com/2017/08/25/excessive-masturbation-is-hurting-chinas-military/
Joe90
He has it because I gave it to him and can withdraw it whenever I please.
J
Indian Army murdering Muslim civilians in Kashmir is as battle-hardened as Israelis murdering Muslim and Christian Arabs.
And that bit about tough “Highlanders…” reminds me of similar assertions to the superiority of The Southern Soldier to the Northern Soldiers on the eve of WBS.
However a curate such estimations are, China will prevail since she has more trained men, and more equipment to feed the war, when it comes.
Indians be fools to carry, yet again, Whie Man’s Burden, but this time in the Himalayas.
When they are thorougly rolled up, please recall that you heard it first from me on this forum.
“When they are thorougly rolled up…”
The opposite happened in the Ladakh Himalaya. The CCP stealth expropriation of Indian territory was quickly rolled back by Indian military forces. They demonstrated rapid logistical buildup and ability to field soldiers and materials with high altitude acclimatization.
When PLA forces surprised an Indian patrol in the high mountains and killed the unarmed commanding officer, the Indian forces responded rapidly. That’s the well publicized incident with multiple casualties on both sides.
The PLA is not as strong as many believe, IMO. Likewise they’ve been murdering and interning Muslim Uighurs in concentration camps but the Ayatollah is busy bending his knee to the godless communists.
Jack
Why don’t you humanitarian do-gooders invade Sin-Kiang with a combined force of the Gurkhas, Indian Highlanders, 82 Airborne and the Golani Brigade and liberate all those oppressed Muslims?
It would be a joint Hindu-Protestant-Jew undertaking, a military version of the usual Prayer Breakfast. Hey, you might even get that Gucchi- wearing Lama would contribute a few peaceful warriors.
J,
The Economist has a story on the use of SFF.
https://twitter.com/levigundert/status/1303545744830296065?s=21
Xi may risk a border war to insure patriotic fervor to bolster his weakening domestic support. It appears from actions by India that they’re more prepared militarily than Xi believes. In fact in the aftermath of the Galwan clashes earlier this past summer, Russia was speed delivering combat aircraft and other advanced military gear to the Indian military.
Jack,
“When PLA forces surprised an Indian patrol in the high mountains and killed the unarmed commanding officer, the Indian forces responded rapidly. That’s the well publicized incident with multiple casualties on both sides”
I’m curious of the source of this tidbit? I hope it’s not Indian sources( if you believe Indian sources then not only was their strike on Pakistan successful but they shot down an f16 as well, evidence of which I am still waiting to see), cause I have yet to read of any Chinese casualties from any credible sources on that incident. And the fact that the Chinese had Indian prisoners to hand over but the Indians had no Chinese ones, makes me sceptical of your implying the Indians handled that incident well. The opposite seems to be the case.
And btw for clarity’s sake: I am an ethnic indian, so don’t paint me as some sinophile.
Babak,
It is the CCP that is attempting to steal territory in the Himalaya and threatening in waters in the east.
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/taiwan-reports-multiple-chinese-fighters-to-its-south-west
The Ayatollah is also just another cynical and hypocritical leader. The claims of being a beacon for the Muslim faith is just that. On his knee with a begging bowl while the Chinese communists commit genocide of Muslims.
Interesting pic of some PLA troops at Rezang La pass. They are reportedly just 200 yards from and Indian Army outpost. What kind of melee weapons are they carrying? Looks like a dao sword or a meat cleaver on a staff.
https://d2c7ipcroan06u.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/China-soldiers-696×392.jpeg
Vince
The reality is that there can be no independent reporting of these clashes. They are occurring in high mountain areas where there is no normal human habitation. Even the Reuters report I read would have to been sourced from both Chinese official sources or Indian military spokesmen. At least in India reporters and independent journalists would have the ability to interview soldier’s families to get some color.
In the Galwan clashes it is clear an Indian army Lt. Col. was killed. There are images of the funeral and video interviews of the family. There have also been video of funerals of other soldiers. It is highly unlikely that there would not have been any Chinese casualties. The Chinese while not disclosing any numbers have acknowledged deaths on both sides.
While I agree with you that skepticism is warranted in any reporting, in this incident the basic story reported in the US passes the smell test.
Jack
Hey, the Ayatollah is not holding you back Jack. Please, parachute into Sin Kiang at your convenience anytime you want.
Send us a post card from yet another war of choice.
Jack,
I wasn’t questioning the basic story of the incident, I was disputing your implication that the Indians handled the incident well.
Because judging by how the Indian media responded vs how the Chinese responded tells me a very different story. I won’t speak for the Chinese but I know full well of how Indians can be full of bluster and bombast.
I also take note that your anti-chinese bias throughout your commentary here might be seriously clouding your analysis. You seem to be giving the impression that the current tensions in the LAC is solely because of the China, without acknowledging the Indian governments recent actions as well. Namely the revocation of article 370 and an Indian Minister declaring that India will reclaim Chinese controlled Aksai Chin.
It takes two to tango, and in the real world both sides bear responsiblity for the recent tensions in Ladakh, contrary to your manichean “China = evil” narrative.
Vince,
Anti-CCP, yes. Anti-Chinese, no. Don’t conflate the two.
I have no dog in the fight between the Indian military and the PLA. Although I would root for the Indian military if a war breaks out. However, I am very happy that the Trump administration and the Modi government as well as many other governments are no longer giving a free pass to the totalitarian Xi and his CCP.
Babak,
I’m waiting for the disingenuous Ayatollah to stop lecturing everyone about how he’s the epitome of the good muslim for all the faifthful to follow. He’s just another politician using religion for his own power.
Jack
He is all of that: “the epitome of the good muslim for all the faifthful to follow”.
He also has shohud, look it up,شهود.
He is also an extremely well educated man, a real intellectual, and a great statesman and strategist.
No comparable man has existed in the West for centuries, except, very distantly, Pope John Paul II.
It was your loss that you did not take advantage of his 2 letters to the European youth and his cease-fire deal called JCPOA; those gave you a fig leaf to climb down from your fruitless religious war perch and enact a Generalized Cease Fire: in Palestine, in the Levant, in North Africa, in the Persian Gulf.
Babak,
How do you square the fact that if he’s such a good man and no comparable man exists for centuries, that he would condone the genocide of his fellow muslims for a few yuan from the godless communists?
Doesn’t add up. His actions betray that he’s just another conniving politician. Talk is cheap and so is arm waving.
Jack
When be hearing the speech of Initiates of Heart,
Call it not False
Words’ Worth you cannot grasp,
There lies the Fault.
A good description of what’s going on in Eastern Ladakh.
https://youtu.be/5PoJNEjuwIU
Jack,
“Anti-CCP, yes. Anti-Chinese, no. Don’t conflate the two.”
Spare me this spin. As authoritarian as the Chinese government is, The CCP enjoys much broad support amongst the population, probably the most support since their founding. People who keep blathering on about being “anti-ccp but not anti-chinese’ are being obtuse at best and disingenuous at worst.
And if hypothetically the CCP were to fall tomorrow, I suspect you would not like the democratically elected government that would replace them. In fact, the sudden demise of the CCP and the rise of a democratically elected, nationalistic Chinese government would almost be worth it just to see how proponents like you would then try to spin your anti-chinese bias as not being anti-chinese.
Vince
How do you know the CCP has “much broad support among the population”? Are you a self-hating Indian?
“How do you know the CCP has “much broad support among the population”?”
Go read comments on weibo. go read comments on bilibili or tudou. The chinese in general are a very nationalistic bunch. And in many cases the CCP actually has to try and reign it in, lest the nationalism forces their hand in cases where they rather it would not.
The PRC is not North Korea. Go visit China, you’ll be surprised at the level of frankness the average chinese citizen will convey to you. If your automatic response is to claim they are simply brainwashed into supporting the CCP, well then you have a very infantile view of chinese people at large. Just like the leftists in the United States have an infantile view of Trump supporters and the right in general.
“Are you a self-hating Indian?” Is this your best retort? No I’m an Indian who celebrates my rich and deep culture on a daily basis. But I’m no sheep and I try my best to leave my biases at the door, unlike you apparently. I don’t swallow the BS that regularly comes out the mouth of Indian media and the Indian government either. Like I said, I know very well the bluster and blather my people are quite fond of engaging in. I see it at the dinner table all the time. Your cheap attempt at an insult not withstanding, I’m an Indian who subscribes to the realism school of thought, not fantasy.
vince
I don’t want to get in the middle of the food fight between you and Jack. But….”read comments on weibo. go read comments on bilibili or tudou.” as a marker for support of the CCP is absurd. No one expresses any criticism of Xi and the CCP unless they want an immediate midnight knock and a quick trip to the re-education center.
https://sinocism.com/p/engineers-of-the-soul-ideology-in
You can dismiss it all you want and you can believe the CCP is synonymous with the Chinese people and Chinese nationalism. Of course if you are a communist sympathizer that would fit perfectly.
blue peacock,
“But….”read comments on weibo. go read comments on bilibili or tudou.” as a marker for support of the CCP is absurd.”
More infantile analysis of mainland china. You outright dismiss the fact that you can have actual conversations with mainland chinese people on those sites, but you prefer treating them like NPCs instead, cause once again it fits your bias. Go ahead and visit those sites, and actually engage them. You will be shocked at how supportive they generally are for Chinese policy in general. Foreign and domestic. And
“No one expresses any criticism of Xi and the CCP unless they want an immediate midnight knock and a quick trip to the re-education center.”
You only get on the CCP’s radar if they determine that the level of criticism and online activity has the potential to morph into something that can actually challenge their rule. Otherwise they generally do not concern themselves what 1 billion chinese discuss online. Once again, the PRC is not North Korea.
As for the piece you linked: More drivel. the CCP has never stopped being communist. Marxist thought and education has and still is a requirement at the university level in the PRC, so I don’t know what this nonsense is about communist being revived over there, it never really went away. There are too many shallow analysis on China lately painting Xi Jinping as Mao returned. But the reality is that he is a bureaucrat who answers to the politburo and the retired elders, not the other way around. He isn’t even as powerful as Jiang Zemin, let alone Mao or Deng.
The fact of the matter is as China grows stronger, they will become more and more assertive, CCP or no CCP. And that’s what we are seeing now as a result.
“You can dismiss it all you want and you can believe the CCP is synonymous with the Chinese people and Chinese nationalism. Of course if you are a communist sympathizer that would fit perfectly.”
More ad hominem drivel. Because I speak to actual chinese people and generally see a trend of them having broad support for the CCP and being incredibly nationalistic, I must therefore be a communist sympathizer. It can’t be because my analysis is actually closer to the truth. I always wondered just how neocons remain in power for so long, but speaking to you and Jack, I can now see how. Ideology runs strong.
Btw communism was as much a scourge on the 20th century as fascism was, so you can take your accusation leveled at me and shove it where the sun don’t shine. I don’t take kindly to being called a communist sympathiser.
Vince, “…subscribes to the realism school of thought..”, while demonstrating no understanding of the reality of the CCP ideology. Lol!
you’re spot on about the blather from your dining table.
Jack & BC,
To add to Vince’s point of the “broad support to CCP”:
Everyone needs to carefully separate the various strands here: Nationalism is not the CCP is not the Chinese is not the Han Chinese, etc. But there are a lot of overlap among all of them, too.
“Anti-CCP but China-friendly” is oftentimes a useless distinction.
The commies wrote into law (on their own) that the Chinese borders are inviolable; that no political leader can give up any Chinese territory on his own. Nightwatch emphasized this often, RIP. So all Chinese CCP leaders need to aggressively contest any and all potential territorial incursions, land, sea, and air. Any future Chinese leader will need to do that, too, for the foreseeable future. Chinese Nationalism is ascendant like everywhere else.
The Chinese people generally support the CCP’s foreign policy. They [mostly Han] definitely support all of the CCP’s border policies, including SCS, HK, Taiwan, Senkaku, and India. There is a lot of grumbling about the Chinese investments in Africa being wasteful, less (but still a lot) grumbling about OBOR spending. But there is a consensus on the national strategy. There is a very lively debate in China on its foreign policy, but the focus is tactical, not strategic.
The CCP censors care far more about domestic policy dissent and criticism. That’s where the disappearances are, mostly.
We also need to separate the elite power competition away from the domestic political mood. The elites have multiple power arenas (civil service [CCP], academia, business, military, cultural), and China is huge. So the elite power struggles are very diffused. The CCP-related competition only matters for the civil service / politics, which is a small component of people’s lives there. To think Chinese people care about politics, is an American-liberal bias.
Now, religion is an interesting and emerging power-center. Given the Chinese history of religious heresies and cults, religion is a far bigger threat to the CCP regime than budding democrats. [Speaking of Vikasi, Tibetan Buddhism was very popular in Han lands Tang-to-Qing, and the populist backlash against the perceived Tibetan Missionaries’ excesses drove some of the hostilities.] [Also why the CCP took Falun Gong seriously, and rigorously monitors the Christians.]
“you’re spot on about the blather from your dining table.”
don’t sell yourself short, you’d fit right in there, uncle.
“while demonstrating no understanding of the reality of the CCP ideology. Lol!”
speaking of blather, how about you educate me on how China or the CCPs current actions don’t reflect real politik, but instead reflects their ideology, since you seemingly have such a grasp of it right?
“But the reality is that he is a bureaucrat who answers to the politburo and the retired elders, not the other way around.”
Goes to show your level of sophistication!!
But… Vince claims he interacts on Chinese social media sites and so is now an expert on China’s internal politics and understands it better than John Garnaut. ROFLMAO!!
Hey Vince, did you lie on your immigration application?