Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is often referred to as Putin’s war as if to absolve Russia and the Russian people of any complicity. I don’t believe it. Russian public opinion and the Russian government seem to be firmly behind this war or special military operation. Opposition to Ukraine and all things Ukrainian is a deeply engrained aspect of Russian history and, apparently, Russian culture. This is a twitter thread by Sergej Sumlenny (@sumlenny), a Berlin-based Eastern Europe expert with 10+ years of work in Ukraine, Russia and Belarus and former director of the Heinrich-Böll-Stiftung’s Kyiv office.
First, a stand alone tweet from Sumlenny to sum up his view of what’s happening. “I am a former Russian. And I know Ukraine and the history of its relations with Russia. That is why – being totally furious about #BuchaMassacre and other atrocities – I am not surprised or shocked at all. Not for a second. If you are – your knowledge of Russia was very weak.”
Now the thread. I’ve tried to consolidate it into something more readable.
Russian occupiers seize and destroy Ukrainian textbooks, history books in Chernihiv, Sumy, Donetsk and Luhansk regions. They are searching for books about Ukraine’s struggle for independence, Maidan and war, Ukraine Defense Intelligence said.
This is a continuation of a 300 years long genocide. Let me illustrate it in this thread.
Since at least 300 years, Russia tried to eliminate Ukrainian national identity, focusing mostly on Ukrainian language and culture. In 1720, Russian Emperor Peter the Great ordered to destroy all theological books printed in Ukrainian language. In 1760s, Russian Empress Catherine II (actually an icon for infamous Angela Merkel) instructed Count Vyazemsky to develop a program of russification of Ukraine: “so they start to feel Russian and forget the idea to leave us”. In 1862, over 100 Ukrainian Sunday schools were closed. In 1863, Russian minister of internal affairs Valuyev issues a “Valuer Circular” stating that Ukrainian language “has never existed, does not exist and cannot exist”. Compare this to modern Putin’s statements.
In 1876 Russian emperor Alexander II issues the “Ems decree” banning Ukrainian language from almost every part of life.
The Ems Decree banned:
– any import of any book in Ukrainian;
– any print of any book in Ukrainian, except of some historical documents
– Any theater plays in Ukrainian;
– Print of any libretto, songs etc. in Ukrainian;
– Any public declamation in Ukrainian;
The Ems Decree ordered as well to ban Ukrainian scientists/authors Dragomanov and Chubinsky from living in Ukraine.
Ukrainian poets were prosecuted. Pavlo Hrabovsky was arrested in 1885 with his wife Nadia Sigida, after a typography was seized in their house. Pavlo was sent to Siberia, where he died in 1902, and Nadia to Kara, on Arctic Ocean, where she committed suicide after being tortured. The icon of Ukrainian poetry Taras Shevchenko was sent as a soldier (a typical punishment in Tsarist Russia) to Siberia and Kazakhstan, it was forbidden for him to paint and to write poems (he secretly did both, leaving beautiful poems and graphics, incl. ones of RU violence)
Ukrainian language was declared a “lesser brother” of Russian, with Russian language as the dominant one. Ukrainian language was reformed in order to russify it. Certain letters were abolished (ґ), vocative case was declared “not necessary” (there is no vocative in Russian) many scientific words existing in Ukrainian were canceled and substituted by Russian ones. Later this was used by Russians to “prove” that Ukraine does not have its own scientific tradition. For example, the name for quicksilver, Ursa Major constellation etc. were changed.
Those who tried to preserve national traditions, were prosecuted. In 1972, 14 students and artists were arrested by KGB in Lviv for participating in non-political celebration of Christmas accord. to Ukrainian national tradition: with songs, costumes etc. As a result of the whole “Operation Block” KGB had arrested nearly 90 persons. Ukrainian poet Vasyl Stus was one of those who were targeted. He spent 5 years in Soviet camp, and after he returned home, he was arrested again – and died (was killed) in Siberian camp in 1985.
Daily atrocities against Ukrainian language continued. I will not go into details after the fall of the USSR in this thread, but it is illustrative, that even 30 years after the USSR, Ukrainian national IDs used to have a page in Russian with a translation of names into Russian! Have a look: this Ukrainian citizen was born 1 year after the collapse of the USSR. He has his Ukrainian ID issued approximately in 2008. Still, there is a page in Russian, where his Ukrainian name Yevhen is “translated” into Russian as “Yevgeny”.
This is clearly the consequence of centuries of oppression and traumatisation. That is why I am absolutely not surprised that Russian occupiers hunt libraries and destroy books. Because for them it is a very natural way of destroying Ukraine – the way they go since 1720 at least.
Comment: I agree with Sumlenny. The invasion, the attempted destruction of Ukrainian history and culture, the atrocities of Bucha and beyond are all expressions of this continued Russian desire to eradicate the very idea of Ukraine. That’s the idea behind the whole country 404 thing. Putin has bitterly complained about the terrible mistake of allowing the creation of a Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. Yes, a Western facing Ukraine and the idea of Ukraine as a NATO member does present a real security concern to Russia, but just the mere existence of Ukraine seems to strike at the heart of Russian psyche.
OTOH, this deep seated Russian phobia does not define the state. Russia has a rich history of accomplishments in the arts, sciences and technologies. All those lacquer boxes I acquired bargaining with Russians at the trunks of their Ladas in the shadow of the Brandenburger Tor are but one small example. I cherish those conversations as much as I cherish those boxes. The Russians are a good people. But Russia also has a rich history of kleptocracy and corruption that became embarrassingly apparent in the early performance of the Russian forces in this invasion. However, Russia certainly does not have a monopoly on kleptocracy and corruption.
TTG
So the historical reference to Ukraine, do we understand that as Ruthenia? Trying to understand how Russia’s wars with the Ottomans fit into a national identity of “Ukrainian”? Then, areas in which Polish nobility ruled and Galicia, how does that fit into this identity? And, does the earlier culture of the Golden Horde hold any meaning for the region?
scott s,
Kievan Rus and Ruthenia are both terms used to describe many people in the region. Ruthenia was applied by others. Both Ukraine and Russia claim the Kievan Rus in their heritage. All those other peoples, including the Golden Horde, contribute to the culture of Ukraine and Russia. The Cossacks of the Zaporozhian Host are definitely part of the Ukrainian heritage.
Ruthenian applied to all the Orthodox East Slavs in the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth but particularly to what is now Belarus. That said, it finally ended up as a term for the people in the Carpathian mountains.
None of these were ruled by the Golden Horde although Mongol armies passed through. Ukraine was part of this for 400 years without Muscovy being around. Ukraine was chipped away from the Commonwealth for 100 years. The first separation was in 1648 when a Cossack landowner called Khlemitsky (spelling varies) set out to decide a land dispute by violence and ended up controlling a large province. The PLC was hostile. He needed a church, legal system and tax collection to consolidate his gains so he asked the Tsar to help him out. (This was the Little Ice Age – English Civil War, 30 Years War in Germany and others. Huge death tolls). Khlemitsky’s revolt saw 100,000s of serf sold into slavery via Crimea by K and his allies and the biggest single pogrom against the Jews until Hitler.
The original Ukrainian nobles (landowners) drifted towards speaking Polish and becoming Catholic and were electors in the Commonwealth. The peasants stayed Orthodox.
Apparently all Ukrainian peasants d/n stay orthodox. My maternal grandmother’s family (Warholak) from northern Galizia (I am guessing near the Polish border) were Uniate Christians. My sister used to call it the “crazy religion”. But I think your explanation of Ukraine is accurate. So what? I don’t say that to be provocative but some posters here have suggested that Ukraine is a “made up” country, composed of different ethnicities that have flowed into Ukraine over 700 years. Searching the world for ethnically pure nation states – we’ll find few. From 1880-1910 many Ukrainians immigrated from Galizia. Among the places they settled were the poor neighborhoods of Yonkers. Growing up in the 50’s my mother would introduce me to older (original immigrants) members of the community. No one was just Mr Jones, or Mrs Smith. Their names were always attended by “the Jew, the Lat, the Russian, the Gypsie, the Litvak, the Pole, the German”, etc – you get it. Galizia was a mish mash of many people and from what I observed growing up, they got along well. Grandmother spoke Ukrainian/Polish/Yiddish. So what? That Ukraine is not filled with ethnically pure Ruthenians is not the issue. What is, is how the “great Russians” feel about the “little Russians” who live on their periphery. My impressions, as a child, and they remain so today, were that the “great Russian” feels superior to “lesser Slavs”. In Yonker’s little Galizia ethnic Russians thought themselves a cut above the rest. I still have Russian in-laws. From time to time they tell “Ukrainian” jokes. I politely smile but don’t laugh along. They are always unkind. I agree w/TTG about the history of Russian intentions about Ukraine. It has always wished to destroy the very idea of a Ukrainian “nation”. If you don’t understand this, you don’t understand the idea of Ukraine being called Ukraine – the “frontier?”. Whose? Ukrainians don’t think they are living on anyone else’s frontier.
Russian kleptocracy?
Are you serious? Did you follow the 2008 financial crisis when the banks absconded with trillions in illicit gains they purloined from the american people thru the fraudulent sale of mortgage-backed junk? And how many of those bankers went to jail or were even charged with a crime?
Zero.
The American kleptocrats make Russia’s version look like choir boys.
And all this indignation about the brutal Russian invasion.
Baloney.
Have you taken a look at Afghanistan lately where Biden stole $8 billion leading to the mass starvation of women and children. In what part of Ukraine is Putin starving people?
No where.
And does the US provide lethal weapons to the ghoulish Saudis so they can continue their 8 year-long genocidal war against the Yemenis for having the audacity of picking their own leader?
Yep, we do.
You even admit that Russia has legitimate security concerns but then go on to criticize them for doing what any American president in history would have done in the same situation. Do you think Trump or Obama would have allowed the chinese to build up military bases and missile sites on the Mexican border?
No way.
I don’t care if you take Ukraine’s side or not, but at least be fair in your criticism.
Amen.
plantman,
Did you miss the last line?
“However, Russia certainly does not have a monopoly on kleptocracy and corruption.”
Counter argument:
Putin did not even attempt to gin up the Russian people for this. The first reports of Russian public reaction were incredulity, there are so many Russian families with mixed Ukrainian/Russian roots. Even now the Russian press is presenting this as just the fumigation of some Nazis. All through the run-up Putin allowed himself to be portrayed as isolated.
There appears to be a “support our troops” mentality forming within Russians now, but it started as Putin’s war. It was not a collective act of the Russian people.
Amongst my Russian connections there is solid and massive support for invading Ukraine. Russia is a militaristic society so massive support for the army is almost biological.
The attempted destruction of Ukrainian history and culture, the atrocities of Bucha and beyond are all expressions of this continued Russian desire to eradicate the very idea of Ukraine. Proof?
Mark Gaughan,
Read some history. Hell, read this post and then read some current Russian speeches and articles in the official state media.
I read lots of Russian speeches and articles. I disagree with your take on it.
Bucha?
Mark Gaughan,
What? You haven’t heard of Bucha? Have you been in a coma the last week?
No I haven’t been in a coma. You mentioned the atrocities in Bucha, implying that the Russians had done that. I’m asking, are you serious? What evidence do you have? I think you’ve rushed to judgement.
Mark Gaughan,
With the available ground and drone video, ground and satellite photos, witness testimony and even a few Russians bragging of their deeds online, yes, I’ve made a judgement. There will be more. Enough to present a convincing war crimes case.
TTG,
what do you think happened in Bucha? I am familiar with the headlines, scanned some timelines and am aware of the parallel earlier satellite images.
But what happened? Why in exactly this place? And why is ‘exhibited’ like this? What troops were in this town?
Dear TTG, I respect your opinion. I don’t know anything about the history of the region, although I now have “Bloodlands” I haven’t yet read it. However, there is too much BS all around. My father fought with the Bersaglieri in WWII, under the Royal Italian Army, incorporated into the US Army once taken prisoner in Tunis. He returned to Italy to see his older brother, the last of his family, assassinated by a communist. My wife lived under Pol Pot. I am not cool with communism, at all. I just don’t trust anyboby, and I have no tribe. I’m California, by birth. You want to build an army to rage across the planet and secure an empire, yeah baby, let’s do it. You want me to support the crap all around… nah. Other than to further the agenda of Davos, the UN, and the WEF, what do America and Americans have at stake in Ukraine? We blew this thing up – why should I care? And if I should, let’s go all the way.
Mark, I will not be your search engine but it wont be hard for you to research roots of Ukrainian independence on line. You might try some history other than Russian. Be sure you also research the Czars, Stalin’s, and Putin’s reaction to Ukrainian independence. Good reading.
You are right. Stalin’s “winter war” was boring to Americans. Nor did we have interests in the Sudeten Land and what possible interest could Poland have been? That the Japanese invaded Korea was not interesting and “Mussolini’s Great African Adventures” should have been a travelogue. Today the national aspirations of Balts and Slaves from Helsinki to Georgia are of no more interests to us than those of Tawain or South Korea. For all of the warts, dings, bruises, to American liberty I still prefer it to the CCP or the Quasi Czarist Mr Putin. You have no love for communism but you seem not to understand that the world is not isolated anymore. Funny, me, a libertarian, should point that out.
Given the West’s track record of false flags, until the allegations are actually proven publicly, how could anyone possibly believe Bucha.
Datil D,
There’s nothing wrong with skepticism. The Katyn Massacre was strongly denied by Russia until forced to acknowledge it in 1990. Now they’re trying to re-deny their part in it once again.
TTG –
The Russians were not the only ones who lied about the Katyn Massacre. US authorities and US newspapers were telling the same lies the Russians were telling – and just as enthusiastically. So yeah – maybe we shouldn’t always trust the US news media or US political leaders to tell us the truth … especially in times of war.
I must admit that the Polish film about Katyn is excellent and made me cry like a little *****.
I spent enough time around everyday ordinary Russians in 2014-2016 to agree with you. The deep seated hatred for the “hohols” is evidently that, culturally engrained and deep seated in the Russian psyche. The average Russian person is 100% behind Putin in this war, his stated goals, and the unstated goals as well.
“Yes, a Western facing Ukraine and the idea of Ukraine as a NATO member does present a real security concern to Russia…”
So true, and a point that is too often sloughed off.
Why should Russia be concerned about a U.S. ally and potential NATO member occupying so much of its Eastern border?
Well, ask yourself this:
How would the U.S. had reacted in the 1970s and 1980s if Mexico had expressed a desire to join the Warsaw Pact,
and let the WP establish bases, including missile bases, there?
For such missile bases on other NATO nations close to Russia, and why these are of concern to Russia, see:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/16/world/europe/poland-missile-base-russia-ukraine.html
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/01/12/putin-russia-us-missile-defense-nato-ukraine/
The scholar of great-power-politics and geopolitical strategy John Mearsheimer
has given several eloquent expositions of
why this matters so much to Russia, and
why our opinion and political leaders are such damn fools for not recognizing such and backing off from the situation in several video lectures:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZlQy6FlDBO0aoDtDDh34weAdQUmxaDR0
The earliest in that playlist was given in June 2015 to a UChicago alumni meeting, and is still extremely relevant for explaining how we got to where we are today.
I sincerely hope both TTG and Colonel Lang watch that video and favor us with their reactions to the points Mearsheimer made.
Note that also on that playlist is a one-hour+ video from Mearsheimer, and Colonel Lang’s one-time colleague (in both the IC and VIPS), Ray McGovern.
Changing subject slightly,
to illustrate TTG’s point that
“Russia has a rich history of accomplishments in the arts, sciences and technologies.”,
try listening to some of the music in this playlist of some of the works of Modest Mussorgsky:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6WIWapSWYke9TsOfWYDtXLf3okdIDA2K
Note especially the several outstanding performances of Mussorgsky’s “Great Gate of Kiev”, conducted by the great Russian conductor Valery Gergiev.
Yes, the Russians have made great and valued contributions to the arts and sciences.
We really should try to make them our allies, not our enemies, by understanding their concerns.
Keith Harbaugh,
I’ll take a look at those videos. Another point that is too often sloughed off is the security concerns of Ukraine and the other frontline states of Eastern Europe. Russia boasts of how they can cover Europe’s capitals with hypersonic missiles. What about Europe’s security concerns? Thankfully the efficacy of that Russian threat has been tarnished by the events of the last five weeks.
TTG,
” the attempted destruction of Ukrainian history and culture,” …. “Those who tried to preserve national traditions, were prosecuted. ” (both by Sergej Sumlenny, as quoted)
“That’s the idea behind the whole country 404 thing.”
How do you feel about those confederate monuments across the South? It’s a bit closer to home and in my opinion a bit more important than this tragedy on the other side of the planet.
Those responsible for the killings at Bucha should be held to account, whether by Putin following the example of Lee and Grant and shooting (or hanging) rapists and looters in his own army, or Zelinsky doing the same. The example of the White Helmets should be remembered before coming to conclusions. Even our own military can’t come to a conclusion based on what’s been made available:
“Pentagon can’t independently confirm atrocities in Ukraine’s Bucha, official says”
https://www.reuters.com/world/pentagon-cant-independently-confirm-atrocities-ukraines-bucha-official-says-2022-04-04/
Fred,
Across the country around 100 Confederate monuments were removed. Around 700 remain. I felt the removal of the Stonewall Jackson memorial was inspiring. It was raining and as the sculpture was lifted off its pedestal, there were claps of thunder, church bells ringing and the crowd cheering. Jeff Davis was toppled illegally by a mob. That was always an ugly monument. The Lee monument WAS a beautiful monument that was “contextualized” by grafitti before being removed. Its eventual removal wasn’t near as dramatic as the Jackson removal. Lee and Jackson will end up somewhere better than the waste treatment plant where they now sit.
The one monument which I was truly sorry to see go was “Appomattox” in downtown Alexandria. That was a humble soldiers’ monument erected by fellow soldiers expressing loss and reverence. Unfortunately it was also vulnerable to vandalism. It was good that the UDC removed it one night before it fell to the mob. However, no one was disappeared or killed during these monument removals and the history book of the Civil War and even the Lost Cause are still available in local libraries. There’s no comparison to the tragedy in Ukraine.
I’m glad the Pentagon isn’t confirming the atrocities without an investigation. Give it some time. It took 50 years for the Katyn Massacre. You’re absolutely right about countries prosecuting and punishing their own for war crimes. It’s a better outcome for all, except the war criminals. I’m sure you’ve seen the Ukrainian solution for looters, saran wrapped to a lamp post and having their ass beaten. The Russians carry their loot back in their vehicles and mail it off to mama.
TTG,
So the “country 404 stuff” is okay for the ‘right’ side, it’s even inspiring; and, the Russians have such a bad logistics situation that they are starving, but looted stuff gets mailed back to mama. LOL. Something doesn’t jive, or perhaps I should say there’s too much jive?
Fred,
What doesn’t jive? Haven’t you seen the looted appliances, watches, computers and jewelry? How about the crowds of Russian soldiers mailing packages in the Belarus post offices?
TTG,
Agree. There was a lot of looting in 2020 in towns across the US. Definitely saw that, TVs, computers, appliances. The same people that are bringing us fun and truth like Trump/Russian collusion, Hunter’s laptop nothing to see it’s a Russian misinformation, Covid hysteria and Iraqi WMD told us that the looting was no big deal; maybe even justified. Since you tow all of their party lines, I’m surprised you’re troubled by a little looting when someone else does it.
My Dad gave me a nice gold tooth that was yanked out of the mouth of a “crazy Jap” that his fire team lit up. I like it and still have it. Also, some Jap currency and other odds and ends. My maternal grandparents told me stories from their parents and grandparents about the Northern Carpet Baggers that came to the antebellum South and did some seriously big time looting.
There’s two things that I despise most about the Ukraine situation. First is all of the self-righteous moral posturing propaganda of the west. Second is that the Ukraine is a corrupt nothing and the self-righteous originators of the propaganda get rich from the corruption at everyone else’s expense. If the hate Russia/love Ukraine crowd just came out and stated that they want to screw Russia to expand empire and make money in the process, I’d at least respect them for doing what aggressive barbarians do. I wouldn’t agree with the policy, but I’d respect it as being part of the human condition. The BS and hysteria and moralizing is insulting and it rots the fabric of our society because trust vanishes.
TTG,
What doesn’t jive is that those same troops have been literally starving because their logistics suck. Which is it? Is this the same convoy that couldn’t move to resupply their own men, but yet filled Belarus with wounded Russians, but who couldn’t be bothered to bring out their own dead? But trophies, well did they loot a bank or two of currency? Maybe have some captain related to a general bring a boat back like in “Kelly’s Heroes”?
“One man who lives in Mazyr…..”“They take the ‘trophies’ looted from Ukraine and offer to sell them to locals. Refrigerators, household appliances, tires, and whatever comes to hand,” the man, who asked only to use his first name, Ilya,…”
It was on “Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty” so it must all be true?
I really liked the quote about Russian soldiers buying stuff (in Belarus), but put things back if their bank card doesn’t work. Oh, and they stink. None of that is jive, of course. It’s all ‘verified’ by RFE, but no pictures, of course, no pictures.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-belarus-selling-looted-ukraine/31782856.html
Here’s a refresher on propaganda, which both sides seem to be pumping out is a steady stream:
“https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1511407234068062208”
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1495200579919958021.html
Please read the unusual history of the 2 “disputed” regions of Ukraine.
JMc,
Excellent and informative contribution. Thanks.
You aren’t serious? Are you?
Indo-Europeans probably belonged to the Yamnaya culture, which originated in Ukrainian steppes and then conquered Europe
Irony Alert: So, just as Greece is the cradle of democracy, Ukraine is the cradle of the ‘Western World’ or the mythical west on a globular, not flat earth?
Further, in this vein: I found the Mameluk’s interesting too, thus I am pleased they surface too in this tale. I wonder what our earlier SST expert on the influence of ancient culture on the present, Babak Makedinjad, might have to add to this “scholar’s” hypotheses?
Galeev writes well. Interesting stuff.
It does seem the animosities between many of the Eastern European nationalities runs deep, but it still seems the driving force was the US deep state desire to give Russia another Afghanistan. “A war with Russia to the last Ukrainian.”
John Merryman,
No, we wanted Ukraine in NATO, not a war, nor the sanctions which will surely hurt everyone.
What is the function of Nato, post collapse of the Soviet Union? At one point they tried to say the anti-missile defense in Eastern Europe was to counter the Iranians.
Personally I don’t have much of a dog in this fight, but if it wasn’t propelled by megalomania, we might be better able to consider some of the other major problems facing humanity. It did seem there was a possibility for a “peace dividend” after the Fall of the Wall, but it seems it was the American military industrial complex, unwilling to relinquish power, that prevented it.
So where are we now?
https://t.me/realCRP/4123
I don’t think it’s as simple as that, but the only thing that really matters is what’s the situation when the dust settles.
The link wouldn’t go through, but I’ve seen what I’d predicted. Many of those weapons are going straight to the black market, as the Ukrainian officers sell them for pennies on the dollar and use the money to take their families out.
John Merryman,
Sounds like bullshit to me. Who would the Ukrainians sell them to?
It’s the link that posted yesterday, at 9:31.
“He said every Israeli arms dealer in the world is in Ukraine, buying weapons.”
John Merryman –
The Izzies are there buying captured Russian electronics – SAMs, radars, and EW systems and such.
If anyone is selling their own weapons & gear to the black market, it’s the Russian troops.
Old Russian proverb: “The one who doesn’t steal from the government, is stealing from his family.”
Am I the only person who saw no blood on or around the bodies of the pics. The only person with his face showing looked as if he was dead for a week.
Rodney,
Ah, another remote forensic examiner. And not a very observant one.
Pretty damning if the translation is true. Posted on RIA Novosti by Timofey Sergeytsev, a Yanukovych supporter. Some snippets. I hope this is fake. The author sounds like a nut.
https://medium.com/@kravchenko_mm/what-should-russia-do-with-ukraine-translation-of-a-propaganda-article-by-a-russian-journalist-a3e92e3cb64
The collective West is in itself the architect, source, and sponsor of Ukrainian Nazism, while the Banderite supporters from Western Ukraine and their “historical memory” is just one of the tools of the nazification of Ukraine. Ukronazism poses a much bigger threat to the world and Russia than the Hitler version of German Nazism.
The latter, in its turn, must begin with the establishment of local governments, militia, and defense institutions, cleansed of Nazi elements, the launching on their basis of constituent processes to create a new republican statehood, the integration of this statehood into the close cooperation with the Russian agency on Ukraine denazification (newly established or reorganized on the basis of, for example, Rossotrudnichestvo), the adoption of the republican regulatory framework (legislation) on denazification under Russian control, the definition of boundaries and frameworks for the direct application of Russian law and Russian jurisdiction in the liberated territory in regard to denazification, the establishment of a tribunal for crimes against humanity in the former Ukraine. In this regard, Russia should act as the guardian of the Nuremberg Trials.
In order to put the Ukraine denazification plan into practice, Russia itself will have to finally part with pro-European and pro-Western illusions, acknowledge itself as the last authority in protecting and preserving those values of historical Europe (the Old World) that deserve to preserve and that the West ultimately abandoned, losing the fight for itself. This struggle continued throughout the 20th century and found its expression in the world war and the Russian revolution, which were inextricably linked with each other.
Lesly,
No, it’s not a fake.It was posted on the official, government sanctioned RIA Novosti site. If the Russian government disapproved, it would have been taken down immediately. Sergeytsev is a prominent thinker at the Zinoviev International Research and Education Centre at Moscow State University. He’s not a fringe wack job. And the eradication of Ukraine, her culture and her people is not a fringe idea in Russia.
TTG,
Even so. Comparing Ukraine to Nazi Germany is like comparing Trump to Hitler. If there is a peace deal I would plan on Russia breaking it, no matter who the signatories are.
Lesley,
Calling anybody a nazi is just a lazy way of saying somebody is a no good POS or just somebody with whom you vehemently disagree. It’s lost all meaning outside of historical usage.
You’re doing a great job here, TTG – just saying
So the Stepan Bandera acolytes in the Azov division are merely misunderstood?
KMD,
They’re ultra nationalists who hate Russians, almost irrationally. They’re no more antisemitic than most and even have Jewish members. Many are also enthralled by nazi era regalia and symbology for some reason, much like the Wagner group and many of our alt right types.
KMD –
Stepan Bandera’s collaboration with the NAZI regime came after he spent two years in a German concentration camp. They released him when they realized he might be useful against Stalin. Two of his brothers were arrested by the NAZIs and put in Auschwitz. His OUN political party did found the UPA or Ukrainian Insurgent Army, which murdered Poles and they murdered Ukrainians who did not agree with their views. They also fought against both the Germans and the Soviets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army#Germany
The few but real neo-NAZIs in Ukraine today are NOT acolytes of Bandera who they view as just a politician. Instead, they idolize Roman Shukhevych, who personally by his own hand murdered Poles and Jews, plus organized the massacre of 100,000 Poles in Volhynia and Galicia.
As far as the Azov Battalion, there are probably more Scandinavian neo-NAZIs in that unit than there are Ukrainians. And some reports claim that there also are some American neo-NAZIs among the Azovites.
Stepan Bandera’s collaboration with the NAZI regime came after he spent two years in a German concentration camp
True, Bandera survived Sachsenhausen vs the more then 13.000 Soviet POW’s killed in autumn 1941.
Besides you are heavily mistaken, both Melnyk and Bandera had connections with German military intelligence starting around 1940. … Bandera had contacts with the German military intelligence (Abwehr) already in summer 1940. Which might also be the reason he occasionally is alluded to as ‘prisoner of honor’ in the camp.
…
So (irony alert) today’s real Neo-Nazis have the same problem with Bandera, as Bandera’s (OUN B) had with Melnyk (OUN M)? They feel he isn’t the real Ukrainian National Revolutionary he should be?
Who are they in your opinion?
As far as the Azov Battalion, there are probably more Scandinavian neo-NAZIs in that unit than there are Ukrainians. And some reports claim that there also are some American neo-NAZIs among the Azovites.
Before or after January 24th?
Look, I dislike the idea of a denazification of the Ukraine, but it also feels in its development of a national identity Ukraine occasionally creates curious “national heroes”, or erased part of the past of other national heroes.
Correction:
Who are they? Leith?
As far as the Azov Battalion, there are probably more Scandinavian neo-NAZIs in that unit than there are Ukrainians. And some reports claim that there also are some American neo-NAZIs among the Azovites.
Leander –
Bandera was a right bastard. He would have lain down with evil spirits or with Luzifer himself if he thought they agreed with his anti-Polish/anti-Soviet ideology. Oops, better make that solely anti-Polish sentiment, because the NAZIs and the Soviets were still allies in 1940.
Just out of curiosity, what percentage of the ”13.000 Soviet POW’s killed in autumn 1941” that you mention were Ukrainian? I reckon it was a large chunk. BTW, interesting that after Germany surrendered the Soviet NKVD continued to use Sachenhausen where 12,000 people were starved to death.
February 24th you meant? According to Wiki, some American whackadoodles tried to join Azov. ”In 2016, Andrew Oneschuk, who later joined the neo-Nazi terrorist group Atomwaffen Division, skyped into an Azov podcast in 2016. In 2019, the FBI arrested a 24-year-old American soldier who wanted to travel to Ukraine to join the Regiment. And in 2020, Ukraine deported two American Atomwaffen members who wanted to join”. Who knows whether any were successful in joining? I can’t speak for the Scandinavians, but there are several reports online of modern Varangian-like Azovians.
PS – I miss Professor Makedinjad also. He could have contributed much to this discussion.
Just out of curiosity, what percentage of the ”13.000 Soviet POW’s killed in autumn 1941” that you mention were Ukrainian?
This distinction would be important? I don’t know what documental trails scholars use, but am aware it was something like the Russian action (Russenaktion) following to orders by Heidrich. They had to select commissars:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissar_Order
Which in his mind 90-99 % would be Jews, I guess, but kept it deliberately vague.
But yes, the Ukrainian fascist/far right variant dominated Western Ukraine. Galicia from the German/Austrian perspective. Under the German occupation the “Generalgouvernemebnt”.
Thus Ukrainians obviously fought on both sides in the war, never mind if with the red army or the partisan or with on or the other OUN M and B cadres on the side of the Nazis, as saboteurs, killers or propagandists.
********
The Nazis, as Pawel Markiewicz calls it, granted “Ukrainians some preferential social treatment”.
Unlikely Allies: Nazi German and Ukrainian Nationalist Collaboration in the General Government During World War II (Central European Studies) Hardcover – November 15, 2021
https://www.amazon.com/Unlikely-Allies-Nationalist-Collaboration-Government/dp/1612496792/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Pawel+Markiewicz&qid=1649285387&sr=8-1
Grzegorz Rossoliński-Liebe was meant to give some lectures about his research on Bandera in the Ukraine, most events were shut down or cancelled. In end, he had to give his only lecture in the German embassy under heavy protection:
https://defendinghistory.com/distorted-nationalist-history-ukraine/65887
or randomly:
The “Ukrainian National Revolution”of 1941
Discourse and Practice of a Fascist Movement. In case you are really interested.
https://www.academia.edu/400549/The_Ukrainian_National_Revolution_of_1941_Discourse_and_Practice_of_a_Fascist_Movement
********************
I am a bit irritated which makes me bad at proofreading.
Generalgovernement, German. Usually rendered General Governement in English. Among other matters which should be corrected.
Oops, better make that solely anti-Polish sentiment, because the NAZIs and the Soviets were still allies in 1940.
I am not especially fond of that argument. How familiar are you with ultimately failed diplomatic attempts in Paris or London?
The Hitler-Stalin Pact was something that had to happen almost naturally since after all the Nazis claimed to socialists too?
Leander –
Come on man, you know the history. The Galician Ukrainians were a drop in the ocean when it came to aiding Hitler. They were Hitler’s ‘useful idiots’ as there were in all European countries. There were probably more Croatian NAZIs than Ukrainian ones.
Meanwhile, over six million Ukrainians served in the Red Army. 1.4 million were KIA. Seven million Ukrainian civilians were killed out of a pre-War population of 40 million.
Romania sent two armies, 1.2 million men, to help Hitler on the Eastern Front. They killed a quarter million Jews in their AOR. Hungary also sent two armies and in their own country they facilitated the murder of 600,000 Hungarian Jews and Gypsies. Italy had an entire corps of 60,000 plus soldiers fighting the Soviets for Hitler. Spain sent 18,000 Falangists in the Division Azul.
There were SS units from Scandinavia, Slovakia, Yugoslavia, Armenia, Finland, the Balkans, Bulgaria, Romania. Even France, Russia, and Belarus had Waffen SS units.
Leander –
By the way, Bandera, Melnyk, Shukhevych, and thousands of other ethnic Ukrainians that served Germany during WW2 were born as citizens of Austria. During WW1 Melnyk and Yehven Konovalets, another OUN leader, served as officers in the Austro-Hungarian Army. They were all outraged when their homelands in Eastern Galicia were gifted to Poland in 1919 by the Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye. Engineered by France, many suspected it had to do with French designs on the oilfields of the Pre-Carpathia Basin. Whether that was true or not they were also treated as second class citizens by Poland. Of course they hated the Poles. Ditto for hating the Soviets since at the Treaty of Riga in 1921, Lenin partitioned Ukraine further and ceded more Ukrainian land (containing four million ethnic Ukrainians) to Poland.
None of that excuses the atrocities committed. But it does tend to show that in WW2 by allying with the Third Reich they were perhaps motivated by their Austrian roots and hatred of Bolsheviks and Poles rather than any love of Hitler. They certainly did not cherish NAZI ideology, which considered them as untermenschen like Polish, Serb, and Russian Slavs.
As far as failed diplomatic attempts in Paris or London, they were doomed due to distrust. The West knew of the earlier Soviet help to Germany by allowing training camps for pre-Luftwaffe pilots in Lipetsk. And also armor training in Kazan, not only training tankers & mechanics but allowing German industry to go to Kazan to conduct R&D on early pre-Panzer designs. Except for a short period during the Spanish Civil War when they were at odds, the Soviets and Germans were close up until Barbarosa.
Communist Purges..Including Poets..Authors And Artist…Merchants..Land Owners
and Intellectuals..Past and Present..World Wide..Have Been the Most Brutal Death Camp/Execution Storys I Remember in My Lifetime..Or to a Lesser..But No Less Disgusting Degree…The Greed of Capitalist….Military/Industria/Political Types..
Another Axis of EVIL..any YES..The Chinese Military IS on our Southern Border..With Weapons of DEATH..Enough to Murder Everyone in The Dis United States Of America…..Why Else is Our Culture and History Being Destroyed..??
WAR takes Many Forms..OVERT..Ukraine..Putins War..
Covert..The United States…Dead Bodys Everywhere..Another “Imperial War”
JT
The Russian political elite is united in this war.
CIA Director Burns wrote about the issue in his memoir.
https://peterbeinart.substack.com/p/bidens-cia-director-doesnt-believe?utm_source=url&s=r
“Two years ago, Burns wrote a memoir entitled, The Back Channel. It directly contradicts the argument being proffered by the administration he now serves. In his book, Burns says over and over that Russians of all ideological stripes—not just Putin—loathed and feared NATO expansion.
He quotes a memo he wrote while serving as counselor for political affairs at the US embassy in Moscow in 1995. ‘Hostility to early NATO expansion,” it declares, “is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here.”
On the question of extending NATO membership to Ukraine, Burns’ warnings about the breadth of Russian opposition are even more emphatic. “Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin),” he wrote in a 2008 memo to then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. “In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin’s sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests.””
Ukraine is a piece in play on the geopolitical chessboard, but only as a pawn. This war isn’t about Ukraine. Ukraine is under it’s current leadership a proxy for the forces of globalism. Globalism has suffered some setbacks of late, notably Brexit, the election of Trump, and the rise of populism in western/EU countries.
The latest setback for globalism is the re-election of Orban in Hungary and the globalists are immediately taking steps to punish the Hungarian people for voting the wrong way.
As for Ukraine, I think that war will end up being another loss for the globalists, that is the Donbass and the Azov Sea coast parts of Ukraine will end up as pro-Russia republics or part of Russia.
“The latest setback for globalism is the re-election of Orban in Hungary and the globalists are immediately taking steps to punish the Hungarian people”.
The Hungarian people seem to have forgotten 1956, the Hungarian uprising, Krushchev’s tanks rolling into Budapest, Imre Nagy arrested,”tried”, sentenced, and hung. One might expect the Hungarians of all people to have sympthy with the Ukrainian victims of Russia’s detrmination to wipe Ukraine off the face of the earth; but instead, thanks to a gerrymandered election and entirely state controlled media, they have elected into power the cynical anti-democratic Orban whose sympathies lie entirely towards Krushhchev’s successor at the Kremlin and who apparently would prefer the same fate to befall Zelinskyy as befell Imre Nagy. And it is not just the Hungarians who have forgotten 1956 – and the !968 Prague spring as well: there seem to be many apologists for Putin in North America and Europe, who suffer the delusion “Ukraine is under it’s current leadership a proxy for the forces of globalism”.
We’ll disagree I guess. The world is going through a realignment. So am I. I used to support the interventions (meddling) to effect regime change in “undemocratic” countries, i.e. the globalist agenda, but no longer. That happened in 2014 in Ukraine. Remember Victoria Nuland’s conversation of who should be the next leader of Ukraine after Yanukovitch was deposed?
As for the label of apologist, if supporting those countries that resist assimilation into the vision of a centrally planned, elite-managed, borderless, socially “progressive” world makes me a “Putin apologist”, then call me whatever you want, I’m not changing my view.
Klapper,
That phone call transcript is quite a little treasure trove. My fave is that Pyatt kept an open door to the far right leaders who toppled the government and killed the protestors – then were given immunity from prosecution by the Ukrainian Parliament.
Mike G,
Kruschev’s successor, Brezhnev, has been dead a long time. The USSR ceased to exist decades ago. The Russian Federation doesn’t have a dozen divisions stationed in the country like the USSR did, nor does it appear that anyone else going to show up to crush the newly elected government in Budapest.
On Bucha, that looks as if it could be like the atrocity theatre staged in Syria but at this stage too early to be sure. It’ll never be possible to be sure. No forensic examination. No one impartial at the scene taking immediate evidence from all who were there. I have not been able to find a list of names of the dead, nor indications of whether the dead had cooperated with the Russians when the Russians were in occupation. This joins the list of atrocities that aren’t going to be looked at properly.
Some parts of it should be easy enough to prove or disprove. There’s a great deal of genuine indignation about a mass grave containing civilians being discovered. So great an outcry that even to express doubt about that in England is proof positive one is a Kremlin stooge. Yet I find this, from JohninMK, in a previous comment section on the Colonel’s site:-
“– The mass grave near St Andrei’s church. The trench was dug by the municipal authorities in consultation with Russian troops, to bury civilians who died during the exchange of fire between the Russian and Ukrainian armies. And this trench does not date from 30 or 31 March, but from mid-March, as this video from 13 March shows, where the bodies were decently buried. The video also clearly states that the people buried died as a result of the bombing. So there is nothing to do with civilians executed by the Russian army. According to the video, there are 67 bodies in this mass grave.”
https://turcopolier.com/jomini-of-the-west-maps-for-1-april-ttg/#comments
Well, is that true or isn’t it. That at least should be easy enough to check up on.
Doubt it will be. We’re all of us in the general public invited to be investigator, judge and jury all in one, on bits of unexamined evidence we can pick and choose from as we please and most of us possessing no background knowledge of the circumstances.
On the mass grave, I shall be waiting to read some authoritative and witnessed evidence on whether the source from which the above account is taken is true or whether it’s false: I can scarcely go over there and ask around myself. Until then, all one can say is merely that Bucha has the feel of the faked atrocities in the past and leave it at that.
As much as I despise the Russians and Putin for this, I too reserve judgement on Bucha for the moment, but only on the question of scale. Was it a few isolated incidents or wide-spread? There’s a world of difference between the two. The news keeps running that same couple scenes and I expected to see many more by now if it was wide spread. Have to know the scale before I’ll say it was systemic and not just a few soldiers, or perhaps the sort of ilk that Chechnyan mercs are cut of, who got beastly.
Mark Logan,
I agree that we don’t know if these war crimes are the work of undisciplined, poorly led troops or if this behavior is the result of orders from higher up. Either way, it doesn’t speak well for the Russian army.
TTG,
We also don’t know if these war crimes were committed by them or the Ukrainian National Police, or both.
My Lai did not reflect the entire US Army and Marines. But as you and ML both say … soon enough and we’ll see.
”Russian public opinion and the Russian government seem to be firmly behind this war or special military operation. “
That may be changing. Returning Russian GIs are telling their stories back home. Plus retired GRU Colonel Strelkov (fka Igor Girkin) who has a large audience in Russia is speaking the truth about the Russian military disaster there. Even state propaganda outlets recently confessed that Russia mistook public opinion within Ukraine. And after the UKR helicopter rocket attack near Belgorod there have been whisperings online about withdrawing troops and negotiating.
Kamil Galeev has a new twitter thread on the Russian invasion. Definitely worth reading. He calls this invasion a redux of Czechoslovakia 68. Another interesting item is it turns out that UKR helicopters have been flying nap-of-the-earth missions (30-foot altitude) in and out of Mariupol. They were bringing in ammo & flying out wounded until someone with an Igla or Verba MANPADS got off a lucky shot.
https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1511529463867092998
Admittedly Galeev, a Kazani Tatar, may be biased. But his narratives so far have made sense and he quotes many Russian sources.
TTG,
Sure are a lot of Russies and relativisms coming out of the shrubs on here!
AI, I assume as a moral absolutist you are pressing for the U.S to also be dragged befo re international law courts over trivialities like attacking Iraq and Afghanistan? Then there is still Al Ghraib torture to be prosecuted.
Walrus,
None of the parties in the conflict have ratified the Rome Statue and they certainly aren’t going make their own leadership and soldiers subject to the ICC. I look forward to some shrewd politician refering the folks responsible for Rotherham, or Epstein’s child trafficking ring, to the court since there are a lot of people involved who are citizens of countries that did ratify the thing.
How about these Ukrainian troops (the guys doing the killing)? War criminals or exempt? If exempt, isn’t that relativism?
https://t.me/RVvoenkor/6684?fbclid=IwAR0RbgYWioAnkV_vlinEKZ3KOV7W03F-6UfRkgZ-58UiZoqFGnDWouJdriM
Or how about these Ukrainian special police? Should they get the Chauvin treatment? Or exempt because Ukrainians heroes because Nuland and Exxon say so?
https://t.me/ASupersharij/9058?fbclid=IwAR23kvE5Nq7AoU0PBezZlBDSECOf-t3N-SlrKSOx6lRIvk01bw0EznXqiFg
TTG – Yeoman’s work being a patient and unprejudiced moderator.
Thank you, for filling in for the Colonel while he recuperates!
Does anyone have reliable casualties for this war? I have been looking and the internet is full of stories about Russian casualties, but it is difficult to find anything reliable about Ukrainian casualties.
I have seen incredible claims that Ukrainian casualties are 1,100 while Russia’s are 15,000. These strike me as patently ridiculous.
Matthew,
I haven’t found any reliable estimates lately. I wouldn’t rely on either Ukrainian or Russian figures. NATO figures from a week ago were closer to what you found, but those might be estimates, projections or simple WAGs. Counting destroyed vehicles may be more accurate, but that’s not entirely accurate either.
In a real Keystone cops moment, the Russians abandoned lots of vehicles because they ran out of gas. Who knows how many were destroyed after they were abandoned.
You are correct to be wary of “destroyed tanks” to dead bodies as a metric.
I second MJ’s congrats on your filling in for Pat Lang. Now was/is it as easy as you always thought?? Thanks!
I suspect Putin watches Tucker Carlson from time to time, and this is the most scathing Biden reality check so far. A powerful and disturbing eleven minute commentary and video.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/04/joe-biden-now-unpopular-person-virtually-room-enters-tucker-carlson-nobody-respect-joe-biden/
**Speculative** scenario:
1. Biden finally get culled from the herd; one way or the other and soon
2. Harris moves into POTUS and selects Obama as her VP
(Look at the two fawning over each other – Kamala finally got her mojo in Obama’s shadow)
TERM LIMITS DOES NOT APPLY: 22th Amendments only addresses holding “elected” office no more than two times; is totally silent about anyone “appointed” to be in line for POTUS a third time. Ergo Harris can legally appoint Obama and he can slide into POTUS again, if Harris also gets impeached or culled from the herd.
The word elected is used over and over again for emphasis, and for the final last Democrat joke, GOP insisted on placing “strict constructionists” on SCOTUS- who are dedicated to interpreting only the express language of the US Constitution – which is totally silent about being “appointed” to be in line for a POTUS third term. (Obama)
Setting aside for the moment the fact that this is a thoroughly unlikely hypothetical – if a President Harris were to appoint former President Biden as her Vice President, that would only actually occur after a majority vote in both Houses of Congress. Do you really mean to tell me that the current Congress, or one likely to be elected this November, would in fact do that?
You should spend your time worrying about a new President Harris selecting Elizabeth Warren or AOC as her VP. Either of them would be much more likely.
In this scenario, maybe the Obama that Harris would appoint would be Michelle. If this scenario came to pass.
I think Barakie-poo is tired of working and just wants to enjoy his retirement counting his money and collecting his payoffs for immunising and impunifying the FIRE sector black hat perpetrators for having engineered the 2008 crash, and for having bailed them out so magnificiently.
Looks like the NYT confirms the Internations Criminal Court will have to get busy charging Ukrainians as well as Russians since they confirm this report of Ukrainian forces shooting wounded Russians.
https://nypost.com/2022/04/06/ukrainian-forces-caught-on-video-shooting-dead-wounded-russian-soldier/
Fred,
Those Ukronazis cut the prisoners throats while their hands were tied and only then finished them off with gunshots.
But hey, they’re just subhuman Rusky invaders. So it’s ok. US supported Nazis are the good of Nazis. Not like those tiki torch Nazis with bulging eyes that supported Trump and compelled Joe Biden to enter the race.
These perma-govt types BSers are always BSing except when it comes to UKR, then they’re telling the absolute truth. Uh huh.
There Are No Highly Qualified “Think Tanks”..Holding High Mass around DC…
To Bring Peace To The…World…Or To “Manifest”..Americans Destiny..
The Same Little Coven Of “One Worlders”..Are Putting Together Joseph Bidens
“New World Order”…Joe Thinks Thats an Order For Chocolate and Vanilla Ice Cream
For Every One..
Larry Kudlow Was Asked By Gutfeld Who in The White House..Walks Joe Biden Back
When He Forgets He is Thier Sock Monkey…
Larry Kudlow Said..”Anthony Blinken..”…Secretary of State..Whose Grandfather Immigrated From Kyev..Whose Father Was Ambassador To Hungary..The Blinken Family Roots..
Secretary of State..Hillary…Condi..Blinken..Why..”Who Could Have Anticipated..?”
That This Person Alone..Can Start Wars….Over Thrown Governments..Create Jihads..
Ignore Bin Ladens Threats..Or Know You Can Poke a Bear..Enough to
Make it Tear Off Doors..And Go Rabid…Because You are The Presidents One Person…
“Cess Pool”…An He is Your Manicurel Mushroom..My Opinion..
JT
Hey T, so the Russians bombed a train station with a missile they don’t have?
Mark Gaughan,
The Russian Tochka-U missile systems were videoed moving from Belarus towards the Donbas. Russia is running short of missiles. Nothing unusual in that. Shoigu recently went begging China for replacements and was turned down. He then went to NK. Kim said he’s provide some replacements.
Yeah sure. Russia is short of missiles that they’re borrowing back hand me down ordnance from Belarus and then wasting it on committing atrocities against civilians instead of hitting UKR troop positions.
Anyhow, I’ve seen some analysis that fairly convincingly shows the missile came from the direction of UKR positions. It’s fairly easy to discern. The booster falls off and then the war head goes forward. So draw a line from where the booster landed to where the cluster munitions went off and you pretty much have the trajectory of the thing. Maybe the analysis I saw was faked, like they rotated the map 180 degrees. Maybe the UKR govt stuff is faked. The point is, once again, instead of telling stories to confirm one’s bias, the truth could be ascertained easily.
Eric Newhill,
I expect the next line from the Russian government or their apologists will be that the entire Russian invasion force are Western crisis actors funded by George Soros. It’s all an IO to get Russia, the burning tanks, the destroyed buildings, the displaced millions and the thousands of dead. I do agree that neither you nor I can sit here in the US with no access to classified intelligence can truly discern the truth of many of these events without the passage of time and the eventual revelation of information.
TTG,
Serious question – IMO, Zelensky is puppet of the US Borg. However, puppets have a way of thinking off the strings from time to time. The Ukronazis have literally threatened Zelensky on more than one occasion. Basically, they are a dangerous armed faction out of Z’s control.
Do you think it possible that Z wants this war to drag out not only to appear to appease his US masters, but, perhaps more important to his personal interests, so they can kill off the nazis? Perhaps he and Putin have a deal. Z will give up the east and south east only when the nazis are destroyed and damn the Borg. In return and as gesture of good faith, the Russians pulled away from Kiev to complete the agreed upon terms in the Donbas.
Try to put aside your hate and derision of Russia for just a moment and think about it. Genuinely interested in your thoughts.
Eric Newhill,
I think Zelenskiy is willing to fight as long as it takes to free his country of the invaders, whether we want him to or not. He and near all of Ukraine are compelled to do so. Who the invaders are is almost immaterial. If it was Lithuanians or Poles invading Ukraine, Zelenskiy would have a right to repel those invaders and I would agree with him. However, Even if he does free the country of the Russians, the question of those Donbas Ukrainians who want nothing to do with Ukraine will remain. How he deals with them will remain a question. Would he try them as traitors or forcibly expel them to Russia? If they’re already accepted Russian passports, that may not be that hard to do. Russia is already deporting a lot of Ukrainians from the Donbas, maybe they would prefer that solution. Maybe he will agree to some kind of federalization on his terms, not outsider’s terms. I just don’t know at this time.
I have no doubt Russians would fight just as hard if they were invaded by NATO or anyone else, as they should. If Putin’s primary concern was to get rid of nazis he has plenty in his own country to get rid of. The Wagner Group are a known bunch of nazis. Why doesn’t he get rid of them?
TTG,
But what of the Ukrainian Nazis? You slid right past that. The Russians don’t want them and I don’t accept that Z can live with them, long term either. Are the Nazis not invaders too? Many even come from other countries. Like I said, they have threatened him. As you say, Z is Jewish, etc. It’s in everyone’s interest that the Nazis go away. Even the CIA will see the Nazis as having existed past their usefulness, especially now that their existence is becoming increasingly known to the world.
Z can’t attack them. He doesn’t have the resources and now he needs them to fight Russia. It seems to me that once they have been reduced by the Russians, Z is free and clear to run the country on his terms (accepting whatever he owes to the US).
Or are you saying that Nazis have a legitimate place in the political mix of UKR?
I sort of got an idea now.russia built up reserves of some $600 bn under nubile the the banker.
China signed a 30 year deal with Russia for oil and gas recently
The west clamped onto the reserves through sanctions and now China is up for a deposit withdrawal.
Russia is funked.Too many eggs in one babushka.Bit of a lashing out in tel aviv and to come lebanon and Syria.
The key is ukraine.The longer the war,the more the bleed.
Sleepy joe got the mo,trumpy got the ho ho ho
Just need a few more pieces to finish the puzzle
Seriously…Whose New World Order is Trying to Be The Fourth
Reich..? What Happened to Putin in East Germany..And In Berlin..?
What All Did He and His Wife Take Back to Russia..Besides a Washing Machine Strapped To Thier Roof..A “gift”…from Neighbors..Did He Gather Nazi Items..Souveniers..Hiter Items..Because of His Contacts..? How many Nazis..of all Kinds..Besides Scientists
Were Taken to Moscow..?? There Must be a Story There somewhere..
How Does Isreal really Fit Into the Ukraine/Russia Matter..? There has to be Another Story there..
Was The Nazi Hunter..Hitler in South America Story True..Is He Still Alive
in Argentina..Playing Wagner..and Walking His Dog..?
What Elements Are Behind all The Cartel..Foreign Government Axis in South/Central America..Mexico..ooks ike a Combination of Isis/Nazis/Marxists/Communists.aand Every American Hate Group on Earth..or Outer Space.
.Where The Hell is all This Atlantis ..Azatland Techno Stuff Coming From ..And thats Only the Stuff We Know About…Or finaly are Hearing About..Because The “system” just cant Lie any More..Theres Too Much evidence..Give Joe another B 12 Shot..
He Might Tell The Truth someday..After His Next Trip to Mars..
JT
..
jim ticehurst,
Your comments are usually worthwhile contributions, but sometimes your streams of consciousness leave me thinking you’re hitting the hooch or pakalolo. No problem. I sure somebody here can pick up what I’m missing.
I Dont Drink Hootch..Once a Month a Shot (Small) of JD..Its Better than L isterine…
I Just Get Tired TTG..Been Taking Care of My Wife for Nine Straight Years..Without One Day off..In and Out of Hospitals And Rehab..Strokes..Its Been Overwheming..Sad.. at Times..
So I Have My Archie Bunkers Moments at Times..Except Now..There are More S..T Heads than Meat Heads..And What they Have Done to Our Kids..Our Counrty Our Constitution..
Is Beyond a Mockery..Its Enough to Realy Piss You Off..
JT
Bless you sir for turning into a caregiver for your bride. I struggle to do the same for mine, but would be lost without the help of our daughter and neighbors.
Jim Ticehurst – “What Happened to Putin in East Germany?”
During the five years Putin was in Dresden, he provided funding and support to the Baader–Meinhof Gang who attacked US and NATO personnel nine or ten times via bombs and shootings in West Germany.
He also reportedly recruited neo-NAZIs in order to discredit the West German Government.
Just good old fashioned, run of the mill KGB work.
OK…Thanks for some feedback Leith..
…Yes..I remember The Bader-Meinhof Gang…I Aso Remember the Weather Underground..Bill Ayers Hosted Obama when He was Looking Likely..in Chicago..Thev Paris of America..Oh And The SLA..In California..The Vienna of the West Coast…
Must have Been Some of that KGB..Cooking Going on Over here Too..Suddenly There Was No Such Thing As “Unamerican Activitys”..Just a New Way For The “Party”..To Get its Hands on All The Inte…You Know..So they could Make America Safer..
I CIA could Hire…Top Notch Klinks.Like Aldrich Ames and Put Them on The Russian Desk..Just make sure you stay upwind from His Cubile..
Oh Yes..And Robert Hansson over At the J.Edgar Hoover Building..Another
Great American Greed Story.
And Our Thriving State Department..The “Dog Pound”..Why..They Have Created Such a Safe Bubble For America..They Quit Pubishing the Ten Page List of Communist Front Groups Operating inside The United States..
There are None…Perversion is a Natural State Now..
Its al caused by Genetic Manipulations of single strands of DNA..That come
from Pig and Poultry Farmers in China..Burning Garbage With Coal Fires..
If You Want To Experience That Smell..Maybe you Can Get Invited To the Garden Party..You Might Even See Howard Hughes..Wearing His Disguise..
JT
<he provided funding and support to the Baader–Meinhof Gang
You may want to correct this. Not least since Baader-Meinhof were both long dead at the time Putin arrived, in August 1984. He surely may have dealt with members of the third generation of RAF, or one or the Aussteiger/=dropouts of the earlier generations living with new identity in the GDR.
Source? Not MfS or KGB et al but Putin himself? In the Stasi files not much about Putin survived. The USSR did not leave a document trails in Dresden, as far as I know. Catherine Belton? Putin sells?